323 responses to “Ron Paul: Income Tax = Involuntary Servitude”

  1. Scoobs

    HERE HERE!!!!

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  2. chuckypita

    Ron Paul rules the universe. How crucial is it for us Americans to get his philosophy in place - NOW!

    He won't be around forever, we gotta turn this around.

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    1. Scoobs

      chuckypita...what are you planning to do? Have you gone to any tea parties or are you organizing one in your local community? If you are, (and I hope you are), I'd love some ideas.. (I am NOT creative enough on my own!!!)
      I went to one in Madison WI (Mar 15) and would love to start one in my small community for July 4th, mainly to educate. This seems to be the best venue for that, at this time. Unless you better ideas??

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  3. American Freeman

    Ray & bresail4; not for nothing; for you to claim ego, and you claiming one hundred amendments to the amendments; its still all the same; have you nothing to say about the my points of fact? ahh, is it because there's nothing to contradict? nope, guess not, point and case... they can amend them till they are blue in the face; the 16th AMD confers no new tax power, and the old ones are still the same, totally limited in their scope... my point is still valid, they only aply to a select few and those who were wrongfully trick, or pressured into it... either way, I'm still right...

    and as for the ego, don't have one, don't need one; if my choice of words hurt your little feelings, get over it... Freedom of speech "Protected" Constitutionally, All Rights Reserved 1776

    "Know Rights; know Freedom" & "No Rights; No Freedom"

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    1. Ray

      American Freedom. For you to come on here and start out by calling us know it all people sounds pretty damn egotistical to me and a little wise a$$ed as well. If you have some valid points that you would like to share with us and would like to have an intelligent dialog with the group then by all means explain to us what we have missed without sounding like an arrogant, know it all smart a$$ and then maybe we might take you serious and look at your posts. You didn't hurt my feelings, I just think that you sound like an arrogant prick. Care to change my thoughts of you or would you like to leave it at that? You certainly don't don't own the patent on being a wise a$$ed prick. Lets start over, American freedom. Hi, I'm Ray, now the balls in your court.

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      1. American Freeman

        Hey Ray: American Freedom. “That’s my point”

        1-For you to come on here and start out by calling us know it all people sounds pretty damn egotistical to me and a little wise a$$ed as well.
        1a-“Only if it applies to you, however, when one makes a point against the nay sayers, it’s not.”
        2-If you have some valid points that you would like to share with us and would like to have an intelligent dialog with the group then by all means explain to us what we have missed without sounding like an arrogant, know it all smart a$$ and then maybe we might take you serious and look at your posts. “ My posts are for those who choose to read ‘em, and it would take a insecure person to feel as if they have been targeted.” You didn’t hurt my feelings, I just think that you sound like an arrogant prick.
        2a-“Ones colorful metaphors are not exactly intellectual content.”
        3-Care to change my thoughts of you or would you like to leave it at that?
        3a-“Well, no, my self-confidence doesn’t rely on outside opinions.”
        4-You certainly don’t own the patent on being a wise a$$ed prick.
        4a-“Again the metaphors shout-out the person behind the words.”
        5-Lets start over, American freedom. Hi, I’m Ray, now the balls in your court.
        5a-“Well thanks for the show of good faith, it is commendable, I don’t play with balls, unless they are sports related, but thanks for offering. As you know, I believe in ‘American Freedom’ and I am a firm believer in ‘Jury Nullification’. It is the most effective way of killing a bad law, and the fastest. Spread the word, my point on that is everybody should look forward to ‘Jury Duty’ it is the best way to protect the innocent from underachievers call Judges and prosecutors. Also I think it is better to set free a guilty person than to convict an Inocent. Hey that's just me.” That’s for now… have a nice day :-)

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        1. Ray

          Hey there American freedom. Your ignorant comments about not playing with balls makes your IQ drop considerably. So what yer saying is you only play with athletes balls that are sports related? (See there, you really don't own the patent on being a wisea$$). My confidence doesn't rely on outside opinion either and no I really don't care to change your opinion of me either.

          Now as far as juries go,people have a personal right to decide for themselves whether or not they want to be the judge of another human beings life. Too many people are sitting in prisons around the country who were convicted from evidence that was flawed and in many cases DNA has proven beyond a doubt that a person was falsely convicted after he or she served 20 plus year sentences. So the jury does convict innocent people as well. I don't have much faith in the justice system as a whole as too many people get inexperienced public defenders based upon how much money they make while the very wealthy get the finest teams of lawyers that money can buy. Judge or jury either one, that is not justice in my book. It doesn't always happen but innocent people get convicted by juries just as they do by judges. Now as far as prosecutors go, they will be there prosecuting the case whether its being judged by a jury or a judge. And, I'm not everybody, but I sure as hell don't look forward to serving on a jury. But hey, thats just me. You have a nice day too, OK? :) PS, Try being less of a smart a$$ and I will try to do the same. It's not my nature but I will give it a good try. :)

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    2. bresail4

      American Freedom, Here are just a sample of the article that make your statements incorrect.

      What few Americans know or understand is that Congress has an implied constitutional authority to lay and collect taxes that has nothing to do with Article 1 � 8(1). That constitutional authority is Article 4 � 3(2). Congress exercises its legislative jurisdiction over large areas of land (territory) within the United States and also over a number insular possessions, e.g., Puerto Rico, Guam, Virgin Islands, etc. Within these areas, Congress can act in the capacity of a state legislature as well as a national legislature. Congress can lay and collect taxes within these areas under its legislative jurisdiction just as States do in areas under their legislative jurisdictions. Taxes laid pursuant to Article 4 � 3(2) are not required to be collected pursuant to the demands of Article 1 � 8(18). Congress is not required to use collectors of internal revenue for those taxes. As a matter of fact, Congress can use any organization it desires to collect taxes laid pursuant to its constitutional authority at Article 4 � 3(2). The Bureau of Internal Revenue/Internal Revenue Service was never created by Congress. Congress empowered the Secretary of the Treasury to collect taxes laid pursuant to Article 4 � 3(2) and the Secretary created the BIR/IRS. The Secretary can even use private collection agencies to collect internal revenue taxes laid pursuant to Article 4 � 3(2) if he so chooses. The Constitution empowers Congress to make all needful rules and regulations for its territory and other property and is otherwise silent as to how Congress conducts its business within these areas. The Internal Revenue Service has been defined by statute to be a Federal agency and is administering the internal revenue laws that have been passed pursuant to Congress' Art. 4 � 3(2) authority over its territory and other property. The Federal income tax, Social Security, and all other taxes administered by the Internal Revenue Service are being laid and collected under Congress' Article 4 � 3(2) authority. This is the great secret and fraud underlying the Federal income tax.

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  4. American Freeman

    Hey, all you know it all people: NEWS FLASH! These income taxes "wages" as with most "taxes" are subject to the "voulentary withholding agreement" called the "W-4", and second are on "citizens of the United States".
    26CFR31.3121(e)-1 defines the term "citizen of the United States" as that (artificial) person who is a "citizen" of the commonwealth of Puerto Rico and the Virgin Islands, and after January 1, 1961, Guam and America Samoa.

    And United States is defined in 26USC7701 as the District of Columbia, and States means the same as above [Puerto Rico, Virgin Islands, Guam & America Samoa] duhh.... "includes" means in statutory construction "limited to" and the doctrine of what is not included means it was intentionaly left out...

    So what makes all of you think it even aplies to YOU as free Americans in the States of the Union NOT the "States of the United States" (which is NOT a state).

    Doesn't anybody even read the law anymore? & It's not even positive law, they are municiple (private) rules and regulations for its jurisdiction (members only)...

    Am I the Only Man left who actually reads the law???? Say it ain't so...

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    1. Ray

      (Hey, all you know it all people) ?

      Hey, know it all America Freeman. Thanks for stopping by to give us your NEWS FLASH. Of course nobody reads the law anymore. You are most likely the only real law reading man left in the world. Yes, I am saying,It is so. Hell, you might even be the only (true man) left in the world. Don't stop now. Give us input. Fill us with wisdom. Read us the laws that we are ignorant of. Tell us everything that you know. And I mean everything. Give us input. Don't leave anything out either. Should only take about three minutes of our time.

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    2. bresail4

      American Freedom,

      I for one am glad to hear you are reading the law! Read it all (1 million laws) for American's to know about their rights. The specific law you are talking about, was amended about 100 times. I recomend you read further and find the Amendments to the Amendment. Nothing is surface except ego. Reach out and expand your knowledge before making a statement as to the rest of us not knowing our Laws. More research less ego, you will find truth. Men make promises, Hero's keep them! Be a Hero. Promise to read (1 million laws on the books) Better get started

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  5. Ray

    Michael. When I was in grade school in the 1960's the Constitution was part of history and it was a requirement to learn and understand it's meaning. I think that you are right in your belief that it's not taught in school much anymore,which is part of the dumbing down of America. It's now up to the Ron Paul conservatives, the Libertarians and the Constitutionalists to come together as a group of Americans who believe in the Constitution and use their collective knowledge and collective numbers and finances to begin educating the American public. Together we can take back our sovereign republic and give our children and grandchildren back their future. I also believe that given the huge numbers of the republican and democratic parties that no one third party can go it alone. We must unite for a common cause and start educating America as a united party for Constitutional freedom. :) All third parties can keep their separate identities while working together for the common cause of freedom.

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  6. Scoobs

    Ray, whether by design or coincedence, I think the tea parties were the start of educating people on ALL of our governing documents. I know it was for me! I haven't read them in years but I will now. I want to print them out and hand them out at the next tea party. Seeing as most people won't read word for word, maybe highlight or do a little synopsis on the 1st page and then they may want to read the
    whole thing to make up their own mind. Hey, maybe Maine wont be able to tax non-residents for long but one step at a time, right? (Actually, there was a law suit a while ago about who owned the Portsmouth NH shipyard. Luckily, the courts found in NH's favor on that one.)
    One thing I have noticed though is that it is very difficult to get well intentioned people to realize that THEY have to educate their neighbors rather than look to someone else to do it. But hopefully, with the right coaxing, that just may be a 'snowball' waiting to be pushed down the preverbial hill.
    This is a great site. good ideas. I'm learning alot, mostly that I need to learn more and do my own research to back it up.
    Thanks to you all for the very thought provoking conversations!

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    1. Ray

      Scoobs. You are right , people most likely will not read it word for word but anything that we can do to educate is going to make a huge difference down the road. people such as you and I have experienced freedom and we aren't about to give it away without a fight. Educating our neighbors about the Constitution is a fight that can not be stopped.
      I enjoy researching the constitution, and I enjoy butting heads with those who want to take our guns, control our lives and silence our free speech. My friend, You and I can not be silenced, because we are becoming educated. I enjoy having thought provoking conversations with educated people such as yourself. (And again you are right (One step at a time)

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      1. Michael Alfano

        Ray, you and scoobs hit on the nail. EDUCATE.

        I don't believe schools spend much time teaching the constitution. I have talked to a lot of people in many parts of society.
        Many don't understand the republic. Some don't know there is a republic. Some think our freedoms come from democracy, I believe this is caused by our empire building and the media. After all don't they say we promote democracy and freedom in Iraq.

        I mean look at the fed reserve, if it weren't for ron paul I would have no idea. Man this guy rung the liberty bell.

        Yes guys we need to educate the masses quickly, we can avoid a lot of misery if we succeed.

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  7. Ray

    Scoobs, You asked, (My point is once we all agree that the Fed income tax is unlawful, what then?)

    My answer is this. Ron Paul conservatives. Libertarians. Constitutionalists. Join together and work together to bring this unconstitutional government to an end. The republican and democratic parties are very large parties and their constituents are uneducated with regards to the united states constitution. It will take all freedom loving Americans banding together to educate the masses and bring an end to the corruption known as the Republican and Democratic parties. Also, keep in mind that being a republican in today's political arena has nothing to do with being a conservative. (Unless of course you happen to be a Ron Paul conservative)

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  8. Scoobs

    RonT: I come from New Hampshire. Part of the property tax went to fund our schools. That was unconstitutional and eventually the courts saw it that way as well.
    I also used to work for a temp agency, while living in NH. I was warned by the temp agency NOT to accept a job in Maine because not only would they tax MY income, they would tax my HUSBAND's income, who worked and lived in NH. That law hasn't been appealed, despite constant efforts.
    My point is once we all agree that the Fed income tax is unlawful, what then?

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  9. RonT

    Income tax is illegal!

    Please educate yourself here are just a few links you will find interesting. Income tax is not constitutional and was never voted on by congress. Investigate it do some serious investigation and find out yourself.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1UT2Ms5E2k

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rPypDaXfIV8

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_JP1xT_epY

    Watch and learn your government is committing fraud. There is no law that requires you to pay income tax and never has been a law. But they will bully you put you in jail if you don't pay an illegal law that simply doesn't exist.

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  10. Scoobs

    wow! pretty compelling.. I'd hate to bring undue controversy here but if this guy is telling the truth, and he seems credible, this is quite disturbing.

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  11. Southern Hemper

    Look as an individual one must divorce the US and live as a
    sovereign. There is no law saying that you have to have a
    social security number. There is no law saying that you have
    to provide a socialist number in order to work. Funny though
    once you get that social number the US now has the right to
    force its statutes on you and you are then in statutory
    jurisdiction. That little social number now has ruined your
    life. If you never had it to begin with the IRS would never
    be able to tax you. That is the secret but once you have a
    social security number you are messed up. Because you now
    have to wait in line for the shortage, pay taxes, and then
    you are obligated to follow corporate policy called statutory
    laws. Just something to share, not telling people what to do.
    This is not legal or lawful advice but if you check into what
    I have said you will get sick, mad, frustrated, and angry for
    someone filling out that social number for you when you were
    born or as a child against your will. Sovereign men who never
    got a social number are free but are subject to scriptural law
    also known as common law which is based on the holy scriptures.
    Yep that little number now has total dominion over the man that
    has it. It was never intended for us just aliens who want to
    work in the United States. Figure that, were all aliens in the
    very continent our Forefathers conquered all because of a number
    that people wanted because they thought they were missing out on
    something great and made everyone a slave. It was a trap and now
    people are complaining about it, well they should have never got
    the social security number and they would not be complaining. I
    am going to get out of Babylon after I fulfill my obligations
    to the IRS. The Treasury is the people who create the social
    number and give them out through the Social Security Admin.. One
    might have to die a civil death or fill out some forms but it is
    possible. Just working on figuring it out right now and which
    route I am going to take. As for me I am not going to complain
    but just quietly get out and you will never hear me complain
    about the government.

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    1. Scoobs

      I don't know what planet you're from. What I DO know is that no one would hire you w/o a ss#. I wonder where you get your ideas from...

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    2. Scoobs

      You know, Southern..I read your post again and it didn't seem all that odd to me anymore. I have only recently been taking in some things that have shocked me. Things of which you speak. I was hearing in church today about the income tax thing and how it should only be a temporary measure and in the time of war.
      When I got married, I didn't contact the ss office. They had a 'devil' of a time trying to 'catch up' with me. lol. I thought it funny! But eventually, after I got divorced and re-married, I got that all straightened out... I thought it would make my life EASIER!! DOOOOHHHH!!!!!! It used to be that I could not even get my credit score. That has probably changed by now though.
      I'm sorry if I originally offended you. Although you are probably used to that, I wish I hadn't 'piled on'. Anyway, here's one more educated!
      Keep up the GOOD FIGHT!

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  12. Michael Alfano

    How to get rid of fed reserve and income tax.

    What am I waiting for? For a few states to decide to separate from the union. Yes a civil war again in the USA .This will be the time for Americans to take sides. One side, status quo "Military complex, empire building, unrelenting debt paid for by our children and their children etc,". The other side ,back to what was intended by the founding fathers (freedom). Freedom must prevail at all costs. Listen ,I don't want war, but freedom always comes with a price. And unfortunately people here thought ounce freedom was obtained we would always have it. Well we where wrong .Freedom requires a constant vigil. When Greed and want of power threatens our freedoms, the people must act fast and accordingly using our constitution as the weapon of choice. We the people did not do this,now ounce again we will pour our blood upon the alter of freedom. Good luck all.

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    1. concerned.citizen

      Our forefathers did so to prevent us from having to do the same. Everything we need is already set in place. We just have to insist that everyone, especially the governing body, for whom the constitution was written, adheres to it.

      There are people like Ron Paul who get shafted by the media or jailed for their willingness to promote constitutional principles. We should support them, petition fair coverage or petition their release, respectively, then seek damages and the removal of agents/judges who abused their powers. If we're willing to go to war and shed blood, then we should moreso be willing to take the necessary action to produce a satisfactory resolve that our forefathers' bloodshed already affords us.

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      1. Michael Alfano

        Concerned, I agree with what your saying. And by all means the people should support Ron Paul, this is a honest and very intelligent man, we are very lucky to have him during these times. But let me make my self clear, I don't want war.

        Where we differ is based on Your statement "Our forefathers did so to prevent us from having to do the same."

        This Is correct. But it was the American people's responsibility to keep it and the freedoms and liberties it affords us. But as early as 1913 a magor void in American vigilance took place and corruption and greed has intertwined with government ever since. You think they will let go if petitioned? Well this is where we disagree, but I do hope your right.

        To The Republic

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      2. Scoobs

        concerned citizen, I TOTALLY agree with you! I am one who is just waking up to Ron's take on the Fe Reserve, and hope that it isn't too late. I went to the tea party in Madison WI - about 5000 were there. We then went into the capitol..the 'offending' reps were 'tied up in committee'. We then went to a much smaller town (Fond du Law, WI) where we didn't expect a large crowd at ALL and there was all of 500 people there! I was encouraged..average age was about 45..people with well established lives and won't get distracted as easily as someone who is just starting out. I am looking forward to July 4th Tea party..if there isn't one around me, I'll plan it. I've already ordered some (100) buttons for the occasion..started putting signs in my yard..(we're on a WELL traveled county highway).
        I am also debating whether or not to run for some local office..but that would be down the line a bit.
        I just wanted to encourage you all on here that this is NOT going to go away..and we all need to fight the good fight and maybe we'll go down but at least we would have gone down fighting!
        I simply HAVE to honor all the men/women that came b4 me, that kept the 'freedom fire' burning..I can't let those who died for that cause, lie in the grave for naught.

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        1. dave

          Madison and Fond du Lac eh? Interesting! We might meet accidently someday. Ever go to Bob Fest in Baraboo? Remember - Fighting Bob LaFollete - Senator from WI?
          Anyway - went to Money Makers... but it's actually Money Masters. Had to "join" and I did...but can't get video to work, however I did read the intro stuff. I wouldn't say that I already know everything about the "commerce game" but I do know enough now that none of the info there was all that new or surprising to me. I do want to return to the site though and check on some Aaron Russo stuff. ( I got my copy of his "From Freedom to Fascism" at Bob Fest two years ago - along with Alex Jones'-"Terror Storm" which is about "false flag operations". The monetary sytem stinks and it IS coming down - the house of cards is definitely falling - in my opinion. And despite my desire to let the "barn cat" out to hunt for itself - because I feel we "own" ideas when we discover them by ourselves - I'll go ahead and encourage others to take the time to watch the Zeitgeist Movement - Activist Orientation video.(there is also the main movie and Addendum videos too) I have watched the Orientation maybe three or more times already and it is worth taking notes because when you start to talk to others about the ideas in the video people will give you blank looks. There are many very important subjects not even publicaly debated yet like "there is always more outstsanding debt than money in existence" - so mankind is in perpetual servitude to the central banking system (Fed. Res.) Another "ah ha" moment that I never heard or saw anywhere before until Zeitgeist is "Technological Unemployment". As machines replace more of us in the econony, due to the desire to generate more and more profits, where does the income come from to be good little consumers and go out and buy more garbage to make us happy and sexy, admired and loved? In the meantime, politicians and TV talk show hosts want to distract us from what's really going on "behind the curtain" by blaming China and Mexico for the loss of jobs. Maybe we're being played like a cheap violin - I'm tired - don't know why I wrote that - sounds kinda cool though.
          Hey, don't discount Southern Hemper 100% - remember we're all holding a piece of the puzzle. I know of what he's trying to tell us. I won't go on about it now though. I will say look into and understand the term STRAWMAN. That is your name on everything legal or financial in capital letters - but its not you the living breathing heart beating human being but rather a "legal fiction" i.e. a corporation. You are led to believe it is you and that you owe its debts (after all it has your name!) - and you will be coerced into paying taxes,fines and interest and even get arrested for it if you don't "remember who you really are"!
          Nuff said.
          Last thing... naw I won't say it - it'd freak some people out and make me look like even more of a crackpot.

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          1. Scoobs

            Dave - I haven't lived in WI all that long so I don't recognize the senator. I lived in NH for a long time and was interested in national politics but I don't even remember the name from that. I HAVE had the joy of being in Wi while our current Gov has been in office. Sorry about the Money Makers/ Money Masters mix up. Yes, it is Money Masters...but I'm unclear on what you had to 'join'. I didn't have to join anything to watch the video. I have only watched part 1 and am eager to watch the 2nd half. I am glad you found it though. All of what I watched, disturbed me greatly and I'll have to watch it again and again because I cant take it all in. One thing though, I have thought certain people were crazy before but now I see where alot of them get their ideas from. Turns out, I was more crazy than they EVER were. THEY were informed at least...I was not. I've must think twice before I dismiss someone, that's for sure.
            There certainly IS no time like the PRESENT!

            Scoobs

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  13. dave

    Isn't there a statement floating around like an accepted wisdom that goes something like "the TRUTH falls somewhere in the middle"?
    Sometimes I feel that all so called conspiracy theories have a nugget of truth in their center around which facts get mixed in with belief and the need to be right and to be heard.
    I've read alot of what Ron Paul has said and written and then also all of these comments here. I often use the story that I remember from childhood but did not grasp its meaning until remembering it again just a few years ago - the one about several blind men trying to define an elephant by the observation of the part they were examining. Each believed the elephant to be what they had in their hands at the time. The blind man who felt the animal's leg thought it was like a tree, the elephant's trunk gave the appearence of a snake to one of them, and the tail led one of the blind men to believe that an elephant was like a rope.
    My ideas of how to explain the world's condition right now is pretty well summarized by the Zeitgeist movement and a few others that also have internet presence. A lot of the arguing amoungst us would fade - leaving solidarity in its place - if we were to observe that the monetary system may be a big part of the foundation of the "problem" we seek to correct. A monetary system that encourages competition, corruption and greed, usury, and functions largely on "scarcity of abundance" (economists might call that 'law of diminishing returns' or the Peter Principal). The current monetary system can conquer and enslave whole nations faster than the largest and most powerful armies on the planet. Energy is also very near the center of our environmental and economic challenges and if energy were plentiful, non-polluting and cheap (or even free!) alot of changes can take place rapidly. Brian O'Leary of The New Energy Movemnet can explain "free energy" very well - also check out Wade Frazier's A Healed Planet. Our world is certainly at a crisis. A crisis of resources? Of economic collapse? Or of religions or governments? What is at the core of it all? Could humankind be facing a crisis of consciousness?
    It appears as though there is help available to us for that too - for those who have ears to hear. Share and save the World.

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    1. Steve Clark

      Being obtuse never solved anything.

      Save the Republic first and then we can fuss with the planet should we then find time to be so arrogantly self-absorbed once again believing we are even capable of either saving or destroying the planet. Go beat a cannon ball with a sledge hammer for a year or two and get a feel for what you are proposing.

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      1. dave

        synoyms for "obtuse": unfeeling, tactless, insensitive; blind, imperceptive, unobservant; gauche, boorish; slow, dim.

        Steve, we're obviously not on the same page and I shouldn't even respond to your comment. Actually, I don't care to convince you of anything - I'm responding for the benefit of those who may have been able to see the direction I was trying to point to. In science, or even construction and service work, we often refer to the "order of operations" or in simpler terms "first things first". You and I have some common ground in that I also believe that Man is arrogant to believe that he can destroy the Earth - making it uninhabitable for human life though is certainly possible. What good is a Republic without air to breathe and water to drink? Can one take enough medications or undergo enough surgeries to be healthy on a sick planet? Our various forms of goverment can not survive without an economy and any economy (capitalist, socialist etc) will not be possible without an ecologically balanced environment. There is a growing number of people waking up to this idea of sharing the planet's gifts (resources) equally amoung all who were blessed (or cursed if you swing that way)to be here at this time in Earth's history. A resource based economy instead of a monetary based one would operate without debt (same thing as money) or servitude (having a "job" to earn a "wage"). Now, where does taxation fit into this reality. It doesn't.
        I feel as though I could almost write my reply to the comments that will result from what I just wrote. But I won't. For the same reason you don't overfeed a barn cat - it won't go out and hunt!

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        1. Scoobs

          Alot of good comments on here and yours as well..I was pretty much with you right up to the 'barn cat'!lol
          We have them, keep them REAL well fed, one hunts and one does not. It's instinct to kill a mouse. Hunger is only a factor as to whether they eat it or not.
          If you are willing to spend some time, this might help provide some perspective on Ron's idea of abolishing the Fed:
          google "Money Makers". Go to the one that says, "How international Bankers gained control..."
          VERY eye opening and is the very reason I understand Ron's position on the fed and am leaning toward supporting him.
          (It provides a historical view from Christs time up to today with Money Changers and way THAT is the problem.)

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  14. dave

    Isn't there a statement floating around like an accepted wisdom that goes something like "the TRUTH falls somewhere in the middle"?
    Sometimes I feel that all so called conspiracy theories have a nugget of truth in their center around which facts get mixed in with belief and the need to be right and to be heard.
    I've read alot of what Ron Paul has said and written and then also all of these comments here. I often use the story that I remember from childhood but did not grasp its meaning until remembering it again just a few years ago - the one about several blind men trying to define an elephant by the observation of the part they were examining. Each believed the elephant to be what they had in their hands at the time. The blind man who felt the animal's leg thought it was like a tree, the elephant's trunk gave the appearence of a snake to one of them, and the tail led one of the blind men to believe that an elephant was like a rope.
    My ideas of how to explain the world's condition right now is pretty well summarized by the Zeitgeist movement and a few others that have internet presence. A lot of the arguing amoungst us would fade- leaving solidarity in its place - if we were to observe that the monetary system may be a big part of the foundation of the "problem" we seek to correct. A monetary system that encourages corruption and greed, usury, and functions largely on "scarcity of abundance" (economists might call that 'law of diminishing returns' or the Peter Principal). Energy is also very near the center of our environmental and economic challenges and if energy were plentiful, clean and cheap (or even free) alot of changes can take place rapidly. Brian O'Leary of The New Energy Movemnet can explain it very well - also check out Wade Frazier's A Healed Planet. Our world is certainly at a crisis. A crisis of resources? Of economic collapse? Or of religions or governments? What is at the core of it all? Could humankind be facing a crisis of consciousness?

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    1. concerned.citizen

      Dave,

      There's a lot of wisdom in what you just said. How I see that it pertains to our current situation is we need not be blind at all, but to see the whole picture (the entire elephant), then deal with it one segment at a time. People only seem willing to accept the truth in doses prior to embracing it in its entirety.

      Although the monetary system could benefit greatly from an overhaul, it will always be a problem as long as it is powered by greed.

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  15. chase

    When an individual steals from another person, it's called theft. When a politician does it, it's called taxation. When an individual prints paper money, it's called counterfeiting. When the Federal Reserve does it, it's called "expanding the money supply". When an individual destroys the freedom of another, it's called dictatorship/tyranny. When a politician does it, it's called "the rule of law".

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    1. Walt

      Well stated Chase, descretion is a mile wide.

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    2. Ray

      Chase. I Could not have said it better myself.

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    3. concerned.citizen

      Draft it up, Chase. That would be a Fairness Doctrine we could all support.

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  16. Walt

    I did write my governer and congressman and that one guy we call the president. I agree whole hearted with everything you just said. I do unfortunatly, believe that it will take more than any politician to get this job done. Anyone who didn't go to the tea party protests should, and next time we all need to go to Pennsylvania Ave. Every last one of us, 300 million + people storming the District of Criminals with peaceful protests.

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  17. Steve Clark

    I've come to believe the only way to successfully confront this and many other abuses of power by the Federal Gov't is through the various states assertion of their power through the 10th Amendment. Many states have passed resolutions affirming this amendment but none has yet made an effort to enforce this Constitutional provision to my knowledge.

    The governors of these states should meet and agree on actions to enforce these resolutions and put the Fed on notice.

    Citizens are too far removed from the Federal Government to feel empowered. We, deep down inside, know we cannot make a difference and we become cynical and that cynicism is the very foundation of the problem. The Federal Government has no fear of its citizens and this security enables the creeping fascism we have come to take for granted.

    Fortunately, this administration is too impatient to allow fascism to continue it's creep; they want it fully now as evidenced by the recent document issued by DHS. This is one example of the overreach which should lead to their downfall. Such attitudes toward to US citizens are absolutely intolerable. I am truly frightened - are you?

    Dr. Paul mentions that the Federal Income Tax is an encroachment on the 13th Amendment. Isn't also an encroachment on the 5th Amendment? Read the Bill of Rights and see how many of our rights have not been encroached upon. Scary isn't it?

    Our best and possibly only hope is to pressure our respective governors to begin putting serous pressure on the Federal Government. The Fed is well beyond having to bend to the will of its citizens but perhaps enough of our state governments will.

    Getting back to Constitutional fundamentals is our only hope.

    Write your governor today - please.

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    1. Michael Alfano

      Steve, I believe you are right. The feds have no fear of the individual. I think the corrupt rather keep us divided don't you?. I like your idea of the governors, there are a lot of good ones, but how many would gather for something so anti-fed, and watch out if any of them have bumper stickers on their cars. I mean some may be working for the same entity as the corrupts. Making them corrupts too. No I think the pressure comes from the people, a united people. This is the dilemma we face. Can we put all are trivial differences a side and unite in defense of our liberties? I mean look the Dems and Reps united, well it look's that way don't it? WE THE PEOPLE must unite if we are to gain the freedoms we ounce had and guard them for our children so that they can guard for their's.

      And you know its working, we are uniting. We our uniting under the constitution. And the corrupts know it, as you said they are speeding up their agenda also. Imo

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      1. Ray

        Michael, you are right in the sense that we must unite. We need to stop looking at ourselves as different parties. I am a conservative (Ron Paul conservative) who has Libertarian leanings and I also believe very strongly in the United States Constitution. So do the Constitutionalists. That gives me the belief that these three political parties can find common ground and put their differences aside in order to work towards a common cause. That common cause being to take back our country and put the United states constitution back in charge of our government. After all, the Constitution is the law of this land, Not congress. They were hired to uphold, protect and follow the constitution.

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        1. Michael Alfano

          Ray, I am also a conservative (Ron Paul conservative) who has Libertarian leanings and I also believe very strongly in the United States Constitution. What a small nation =)Glad to know you Ray.

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          1. Ray

            Glad to know you too Michael. Small world indeed. Looks to me like this conservative stuff might take hold and start spreading. :)

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          2. Matt

            Yep! Bank on that ray! Good call man, we all know a message board post is concrete! Looks to me you are right!

            Amazing... No really...

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          3. Ray

            Yes Matt, it is amazing....No really. It is amazing...Really......Yes really. Amazing. Really...........Did I also mention amazing? Really.......yes really......yes...yes ...yes.... :) Good call Matt.........Really

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  18. Kat Milx

    yeah well we all got problems big boys! GROW UP FAST and play while you can

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  19. William Wallace

    You guys should check out the book called "The Red Amendment."
    It is about how ever since the 14th Amendment we became slaves from taxes.

    http://www.redamendment.net/home.php

    Also get yourself un-plugged:

    http://www.deprogram.us/deprogram.php

    The Truth will set you free.

    If you like Alex Jones and Aaron Russo you will like these websites.

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    1. Ray

      Ah yes, Alex Jones, A true freedom loving American.

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  20. Jason

    WOW! Lot's different things going on in the comment section. I liked the article though.

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  21. Ray

    One other thing that needs to be addressed. Where in the united states of America do we have one single business that is actually a free market enterprise? Every business in America is regulated to different degrees and taxed to different degrees, depending on which political party is in control of government at the time, so where is this so called free market system? I have an idea that it sits right along side of the mystical fountain of youth.

    Also, when government taxes small business owners and uses the tax receipts to subsidize huge corporations, is this free market? Am I missing something here? Ron Paul republicans? Libertarians? Constitutionalists? PULL TOGETHER and WORK TOGETHER to stop these socialists from branding us with THEIR form of (wink, wink) FREE MARKET.

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  22. Ray

    Also Matt, the Bush family, as well as most of our politicians throughout our government have huge oil stock holdings throughout the middle east. Those same politicians (Im trying not to say the word corrupt) control foreign policy which has a way of (controlling) the (free) market system. How do we get a free market when we put the words (control) from politicians and (free) which means (uncontrolled) (not bound) (unhindered) in the same sentence.

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    1. Matt

      A tripling in price, then an 80% decrease... In a very short timeframe... Is that (controlled)(bound)(hindered)?

      What part did global free markets play in that? Nothing? Really?

      Why are things always a conspiracy or someone else's fault?

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      1. Eoers

        Matt perhaps you miss my comment, here again, read this report to find out more about this problem; it is a report to Congress, so no conspiracy theory.

        hsgac.senate.gov/public/_files/052008Masters.pdf

        On the other hand one needs to understand that a crash has enormous potentials for huge earnings. 1000$ and the insider information from the FED and in 10 years time I'll come back with a billion.

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        1. Matt

          Thank you very much Eoers. And to your point, a spike also potentially has disastrous long-term ramifications for producers should it hasten development of alternative resources (in this case).

          Fantastic link and exactly what I am alluding to!

          I actually caught some of this testimony last year. This headline says it all:

          "Index Speculator Demand Is Driving Prices Higher"

          "You have asked the question “Are Institutional Investors contributing to food and energy price inflation?” And my unequivocal answer is “YES.” In this testimony I will explain that Institutional Investors are one of, if not the primary, factors affecting commodities prices today. Clearly, there are many factors that contribute to price determination in the commodities markets; I am here to expose a fast-growing yet virtually unnoticed factor, and one that presents a problem that can be expediently corrected through legislative policy action."

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        2. Matt

          Sounds very 'free market' to me? Or should we not let people invest in what they want to invest?

          "If supply is adequate - as has been shown by others who have testified before this committee2 - and prices are still rising, then demand must be increasing. But how do you explain a continuing increase in demand when commodity prices have doubled or tripled in the last 5 years? What we are experiencing is a demand shock coming from a new category of participant in the commodities futures markets: Institutional Investors. Specifically, these are Corporate and Government Pension Funds, Sovereign Wealth Funds, University Endowments and other Institutional Investors. Collectively, these investors now account on average for a larger share of outstanding commodities futures contracts than any other market participant."

          And now, let me guess, it was institutional investors controlled by Bush, by politicians, and by OPEC... *sigh*

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          1. Eoers

            Yes you are right. Free market means you have certain rules to obey as freedom is not equal to unleashed liberalism. There have to be certain rules for playing the game. And, Congress should be overseeing those rules as well! The problem starts when politicians make those rules for they pals and not for the common good.

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      2. Ray

        Well Matt, if after watching 8 years of federal as well as foreign laws being broken by the bush administration and being forced to sit and watch our United States constitution being treated like a scrap of paper (Bush juniors words) if you want to go on believing that there is absolutely no government interference in our so called free market economy then that is your choice. The fact is that this government (Republicans and democrats) alike are corrupt. They manipulate what they don't outright control and they abuse the power given to them under the constitution of these united states. That is not conspiracy theory, that is fact. Our free market will never be free until we put our government in it's constitutional place.

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        1. Matt

          "The fact is that this government (Republicans and democrats) alike are corrupt. They manipulate what they don’t outright control and they abuse the power given to them under the constitution of these united states. That is not conspiracy theory, that is fact."

          Wow, let me summarize:

          - Everyone is corrupt
          - Everything is manipulated or controlled
          - There is no such thing as a free market in the US
          - And those are the facts, your opinion be damned

          Alright! I can see I should even try to have a conversation!

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          1. Walt

            Seems democracy wins, your the only one on your side. See that our system does work.

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          2. Ray

            Yes Matt, our government is corrupt. That is why our politicians receive huge payoffs, and bribes from corporate America, including the oil companies and they prefer to use the word donations when referring to those bribes. It's time to call it like it is. People go to prison everyday for extorting money from people, yet our politicians steal more and more everyday with new taxes that are hidden inside of bills that get voted on and passed by our politicians, both republican and democrat. Yes, our government is not following the United states constitution and yes they are corrupt. Yes, the government manipulates the free market economy which makes it free in name only. So yes Matt, my opinion be damned but it's also correct. Your politicians are corrupt. Our free market is not free. It is manipulated by politicians. The bank bailouts is a perfect example of free market manipulation. How many times has our government bailed out the failing airlines after government regulation put those very airlines into bankruptcy. How about amtrak. Guess how many billions they have cost the taxpayer with no return on our taxpayer dollars? Would you like to see a list of how many billions have been given to what should have been bankrupt corporations because of mismanagement? GM? CHRYSLER? FORD? You think we have a free market system Matt?

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          3. Ray

            Matt, You probably believe that we operate on a level playing field as well? Lets face it, after Obama gets through bailing out the huge banks and others who say that they don't need the money and don't like the government strings that are attached to those bailout loans, We will probably see the small businesses who were devistated by our slumping economy be given a chance to rebuild their businesses with no strings attached too, right Matt?
            No Matt, the level playing field will never extend itself to include the small business man. Nor should it. Nobody should be receiving taxpayer dollars to keep their businesses afloat. That money should never have been taken away from the taxpayer to be given to others in the first place. Butts let be fair about my comments. Bush and the republican party did the very same thing just before bush left office. So by the time bush and Obama get finished with our great grand childrens futures, they may need to consider migrating to Mexico in order to get out from under the debt that the government is dumping in their laps.

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          4. Matt

            Yep, you know exactly how it is going to go down...

            "We probably will see widespread civil disorder in the 1980's as a direct result of our faltering economic system. The dollar has been damaged by decades of interventionism..." Ron Paul, 1981, Gold Peace and Prosperity

            Wow, good call on the 1980's Ron Paul... What do you say now? Same thing. And you know what? After this great country fights it's way through this slump, I bet 10 years later in the natural progression and there is a natural economic cleansing it'll be "NONONO, THIS is actually the decade i was talking about!".

            No, it's not a level playing field, but even in a small-government, gold based economy will it be COMPLETELY fair? No. This is capitalism, not friggin utopia.

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          5. Ray

            Well Matt, maybe there is hope for you yet. You finally acknowledged that we dont live under a fair playing field by having government intervention in the market system. Would you like to go one step further and admit that our government is corrupt, too big, out of control, unconstitutional and is capitalism worst enemy? Utopia has nothing to do with anything being talked about here. You have consistently implied that government does not control the market system and therefore we must have a free market system here in the united states. I, on the other hand have consistently said that you are wrong. Government does manipulate the market system by giving subsidies to huge corporations, by bailing out unprofitable, mismanaged and corrupt corporations and as a result of government interference, we do not have a free market economy here in the united states of America. Government has in the last three decades or so bailed out Chrysler, general motors, ford, dozens of banks, airlines and has given billions in subsidies to rich oil companies as well as thousands of huge corporations. That certainly is government interference into a free market system. Government has passed many laws stopping oil drilling, both offshore and onshore. Government has regulated refineries to the point that approximately 200 have been shut down nationwide since the 1970's. Need I go on Matt? Hell no it's not a fair playing field, nor do we have a free market economy.

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          6. Matt

            "Hell no it’s not a fair playing field, nor do we have a free market economy."

            You are saying the government manipulates the entire free market sytem such that THERE IS NO FREE MARKET AT ALL? Right now. NO FREE MARKET INFLUENCE IN THE UNITED STATES?

            Really? Wow. Please tell me how there is NO free market IN THE UNITED STATES.

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          7. Matt

            And omg, that "widespread civil disorder in the 1980’s as a direct result of our faltering economic system. The dollar has been damaged by decades of interventionism…"

            Last I saw, in the FREE MARKET CURRENCY system, the dollar is doing pretty good? Or are global currencies manipulating that too?

            Please tell me how that was NOW 30 years plus off base and counting... Regards.

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          8. Matt

            I bet the people of texas TOTALLY wants to give up their PONZI SCHEME that SOCIAL SECURITY when texas secedes and moves to the gold standard. Do it man, just do it, you totally can!!! Power to the people!!!!

            I assume Texas has a fat surplus of cash as texas is a direct recipient of OPEC PRICE CONTROLLING (OMG OPEC did give it to you through the NOT FREE MARKET SYSTEM that is controlled by the rest :O as i have learned off these boards), or you just cut off the old people now?

            Please tell me texas is not a proponent of oil money? If the BUSHES are in cahoots with OPEC how is TEXAS OIL MONEY never mentioned?

            Maybe TX should just align with OPEC like it has apparently done already? Like I have heard these message boards say already.

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          9. Ray

            Matt. The more you babble the less educated you sound. Now listen closely because I am getting tired of listening to you cry like a little girl each time someone shows you that you are mistaken in your belief of a free market system. A free market system that is manipulated by the united states government through bailouts of failed corporations to giving subsidies that favor one set of companies over all others is certainly not representative of a free market system. Our elected officials and their families have stock in many middle eastern oil companies and they are also in a position to make, change or manipulate foreign ,as well as domestic policy which in turn has a direct control of the so called free market system. Now if you do not understand the concept of a true free market system that is not manipulated by members of our government then that is your problem. Now as far as the state of texas aligning with opec and all the other bull$hit that you keep spewing out of your mouth, you will have to come to your own conclusions by answering your own stupid questions.

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          10. Matt

            Wait, if OIL prices are manipulated by the government, OPEC, and environmentalists (which you have told me over and over).. I mean there is no free market right?

            Isn't texas the largest state that is a beneficiary of that evil oil empire?!? Of course you would want to secede because you are direct beneficiaries of the BUSH/OPEC price manipulation (which I was blindly educated about thank you).

            ANYONE HAVE ANY IDEA HOW MANY TAX DOLLARS FLEW INTO TEXAS AND WONT GET RETURNED?? Phat stadium Jerry Jones has...

            If I was texas I would take the OPEC-conspirator-money and run too!!! Thanks for being predictable :)

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          11. Matt

            You should TOTALLY institute policy to boot out ALL huge GOVERNMENT AND OPEC controlled oil companies from texas NOW. TOO BIG TO FAIL COMPANIES THAT ARE BASED OR HAVE A HEADQUARTERS IN TEXAS.

            TX wanna take the lead on that? Nah, didn't think so, too busy pointing fingers not much leadership on REAL sacrifice, lol.

            The PEOPLE need to take control before they secede!!

            Wait, as an energy-producing state associated with the bushes, co-horted with the environmentalists, and run by OPEC. HOLY CRAP. SECEDE and the rest of the US would love to take you over, after mexico, or hell, cuba, does. When we are on you own.

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          12. Ray

            Holy $hit Matt. I turn my back for one minute and you start babbling out of your a$$ once again. Where did you come up with this Texas succeed from the union crap?(Not that its such a bad idea) I just didn't think you were bright enough to come up with it on your own. Keep going Matt. You just might say something intelligent yet. Bye the way, Texas would make a nice country, wouldn't it?

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  23. Ray

    Matt, a free market is a market that is not influenced by corrupt politicians and subsidies. A free market is a market that does not stifle or stop the introduction of other tecnologies from being introduced into the main stream. They would also allow the oil to be pumped from American wells and be put on the open market which would drive the price of crude oil down instead of up. In the states of Wyoming, Utah and Colorado we have enough shale oil to last the united states and our allies 500 years. It is 8 times the oil supply of the entire middle east. No Matt, until The government stops interfering in the free markets right to drill for off shore oil and allow the removal of shale oil to be placed on the open market and stop regulating oil refineries into extinction, we do not actually have a free market system here in the United States or anywhere else.

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    1. Walt

      Why do we need crude oil when we can use a cleaner substance called ethenol made from hemp seed oil, an annually renewable source. A source that does not scar the landscape of one of the most beautiful landscapes in all of our states. The oil companies and petro-chemical stop free market by pushing for the criminalization of industrial hemp which has no psycho-active THC in it, but can be used for everything else we can sit here and think of. It can replace wood, plastic, styrofoam, crude oil, etc.

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      1. Ray

        WALT, YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY CORRECT. If hemp were legalized we would have hemp based paints that stay on your house for 50 years without fading or coming loose. We would have clothing that is virtually indestructible. The companies who bribe our politicians with campaign donations pushed laws decades ago to keep commercial hemp off the market because it is too strong and durable of a material.

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        1. Walt

          I like you Ray seems like we could sit down to a good conversation.

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          1. Ray

            Thank you Walt, I believe that we could have many good conversations.. Many people are beginning to see how our government has become far removed from what our forefathers envisioned as a free country. We need to work together and realize that we are the true Americans. We own this country. Our government are servants of the people and when they get so out of control that they no longer serve the American public, then you and I have got to work together with other freedom loving Americans to take back control of our country from those who abuse the power that we give them to try to enslave us.

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        2. Walt

          We seem to be waking up quickly even my mom is starting to get pissed about it; she is not even all that political.

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    2. Matt

      Oh I see now, the government conspiring with environmentalists too to keep us from drilling domestically.

      Oh wait, or as I learn later in this string, it is the Bush family, conspiring with OPEC, and using environmentalists to their end.

      So again, why, if they can control the price of oil (and the free market apparently has NOTHING to do with it) why did it triple and then crash by 80% in the span of like a year? That's pretty inefficient 'controlling' of a price. Why not just keep it high?

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      1. Walt

        The same reason the stock market will rise for a short time just long enough to build our faith in it and put our hard earned money back into it before it crashes and takes everyones retirement plan with it the same as what happened in'29. Think about it momentarily and get back to me. And you shouldn't use the word like in that fashion you sound like my 13 year old.

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        1. Matt

          If not free markets, what is 'that' reason that made, as you assert is a conspiratorially controlled commodity price such as oil, triple in price then crash?

          No need to compare me to a child. Thank you in advance.

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          1. Walt

            You need to read the book "The Oil Card" to see how the U.S. used oil prices to destroy the USSR. We have been waging economic warfare with Russia and China for decades mainly using oil prices as well and metals. That is why China has started to fight back driving up the price of copper, steel, and other materials. And Russia with the aid of OPEC drove the prices of oil up drastically in a short period by stopping drilling. Now that we are in a rut they have eased up on us. I believe the crash we created in Russia has now been thrust upon us and the crash is coming. I apologize for the child reference, my point was that to debate intellectually you have to sound that way.

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      2. Ray

        Well matt that is your problem, you just don't get it do you?
        The price of oil dropped or crashed because the economy crashed as a result of several factors, one of which was a direct result of the oil industry pushing the price of crude oil and its products too levels far beyond what most seniors on fixed incomes as well as working families could even begin to afford. Then we had the problem with the banks breaking it off in the a$$es of homeowners. Then we have the government creating laws with our tax dollars to keep inventors from putting things on the market that would put the oil companies out of business if they didn't compete in a fair free market economy. Now what else don't you get? Our politicians accept bribes from huge corporations everyday that stagnates the free market. They call those bribes campaign donations.

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        1. Matt

          Hmmm, sounds a lot like a push/pull of supply and demand... Nah.

          Well! I guess it's good to know the oil companies and their co-conspirators have enough money for now and are ok with taking less money going forwards by fixing the price of crude at a lower rate than they did last year!

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          1. Matt

            And the speculative bubble of Tulipmania (which I would recommend that you read about) was not some international political conspiracy or federal reserve-based heinous plot.

            Not everything bad that happens can be explained to NOT the free market system, while not everything good IS the free market system.

            People just tend to overreach and just like these comments about the spike in oil, not once was the free market or speculation cited as a contributing factor.

            And for that, on these boards, I always find very interesting.

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          2. Mike

            Growing global high demand for oil causes OPEC increase the dollar number for barrels of oil and growing demand also helps to increase it. --> Global recession and artificially high prices cause the oil bubble to bust. This would be a free market system if prices were determined in the marketplace and not by a monopoly. However, it isn't.

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          3. Walt

            Again Matt, referencing the oil card it has nothing to do with supply and demand it has only to do with SUPPLY. The demand will always be there, but when you control the supply it is a whole new ball game. You can control prices as you see fit, and with no alternative to make our cars run and warm our houses, it is called an ogopoly. Please read the book.

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          4. Matt

            Right, it was SUPPLY that made oil prices plunge 80%. Gotcha! Ok, that cleared that up! Thank you!

            Thank goodness for that 'benevolent oligopoly' that adjusted prices way downward! A nice group of people that felt sorry for us and controlled prices down.

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          5. Mike

            Using the word supply doesnt imply free market supply and demand. When supply is controlled by a gov't and prices are not set in the market place, you have exactly the opposite. I'm sorry that you lack a fundamental understanding of the issue.

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          6. Matt

            Wow mike, with your knowledge of how the free markets are currently being distorted you should be able to make an absolute killing in the commodities arbitrage arena!

            Good luck man, I hope you use this knowledge in a capitalistic fashion to the best of your abilities!

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      3. Bresil4

        have you see this video? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-uNWug7cvtc

        ANGELS and DEMONS (FULL) The Knights Templer NEW WORLD ORDER Revealed (1 of 9) on utube. So worth watching!

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  24. Ray

    It would make a lot of sense to see the Libertarians, The Constitutionalists and anyone else who believes in freedom join forces with Ron Paul and work together to convince every Republican who holds office, to re-instate the conservative values that they profess to believe. Together (notice the word together) We true conservatives who believe in a constitutional government with Libertarian learnings can teach the masses all about this piece of paper (a quote from bush 43) called the united states constitution. We can also make it very uncomfortable for Liberals in Conservatives clothing to continue assaulting our constitution, which by the way, is the law that our government refuses to follow and uphold. Only by pulling together as one united party for freedom will we ever defeat the stranglehold that the huge liberal party and the uneducated republican party have on this country. Ron Paul wont be around forever so its time to stop wasting time and unite together those parties who believe in the concept of freedom and small, constitutional government. The Libertarians, the Constitionalists and the Ron Paul Conservatives.

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  25. Ray

    While the recession was setting in I had a successful trucking company that I was forced to close on account of the diesel prices reaching $5.39 per gallon in washington state, as well as the politicians taxing trucking companies into extinction. Washington state being home to the big tax and spend democrats, as well as the two faced republicans. I finally had enough of it and moved to florida and am starting a new business. It would be a huge help if the governments, both federal, state, county and local were to dramatically reduce the taxes and regulations on small businesses so that people who are trying to get back on their feet can use their money and time to build their businesses and help get this economy going again. It is counter productive to take my money in the form of a tax and use it to subsidize the same oil companies that drove my trucking company out of business.But then we need to keep in mind that it was the people who voted into office a big tax and spend Obama.

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    1. Matt

      Wasn't it the free markets that pushed oil up to $5.39 a gallon? As we found out, oil companies are no better at 'setting' oil prices than they are at predicting them... The free market does that.

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      1. Mike

        The oil industry is actually the prime example of gov't intervention in the market place. If you think that OPEC is a representation of the free market, a place where the price of oil is artificially set due to a gov't monopoly, then you are sadly mistaken.

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        1. Matt

          Are you saying OPEC artifically set the price of oil at $150 a barrel last year? Yes or no.

          Then, after doing that said "ok mission accomplished, now that we have the price artificially high, lets make it crash by 80%"?

          Or am I sadly mistaken?

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          1. Mike

            The price went back down because of free market principles. Prices that are too high cause low demand. When people cant afford gas they don't buy it. OPEC controls the price of oil, they meet and agree not to sell it for any less than a certain dollar number because they monopolize the industry, that is a fact. Meanwhile U.S. companies keep about 40% of their profits after all the taxes that go to the U.S. gov't as well as fees around the world to drill to other gov't's. It would be a completely foolish statement to assert that the oil market is driven more by gov't owned monopolies and companies in bed with the gov't than the free market.

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          2. Mike

            *It would be a completely foolish statement to assert that the oil market isn't driven more by gov’t owned monopolies and companies in bed with the gov’t than the free market.

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          3. Eoers

            Oil price went up because of unlawful speculations and reluctant jurisdiction. Read the following report to congress to learn more about it, it is quite interesting! OPEC is a cartel which itself is a contradiction to free market theory.

            hsgac.senate.gov/public/_files/052008Masters.pdf

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    2. concerned.citizen

      I'm sorry that you had to experience that, but I'm glad you found a reprieve. Florida is sounding more and more appealing.

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      1. Ray

        Concerned citizen. Thank you and yes , Florida is a great state to start a business. It's a state that you can work all year in and unlike Washington state, the winters are very enjoyable.

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    3. Bresil4

      Ray have you see this video? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-uNWug7cvtc

      ANGELS and DEMONS (FULL) The Knights Templer NEW WORLD ORDER Revealed (1 of 9) on utube. So worth watching!

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  26. Harriette Coen

    I totally support your attempts to control taxes, the Boston Tea Party was about tax upon tax which we have had forever. Why should a retired person pay tax on Social Security? Idon't get it.
    The worst travesty is the cost of a college education my son incurred thousands of dollars to get a BS and is working at a job that pays $11 an hour he made more working at a restaurant. Both my daughters have tremendous college debt that never goes down I have a $65000 debt (my kids) with SallieMae with over $400 a month payment the principalnever goes down-in the meantime internationals come here for free education and in many cases have college completely paid for by their own countries and here again come here for jobs.Isn'tthere something wrong with this picture?

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    1. concerned.citizen

      It's misleading. It's enslaving. It's more than wrong--it's criminal.

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    2. Walt

      I have been complaining about that for a while. The best part is when a university gets 15 million dollars to play in a college bowl game on t.v., and it is about the same for the final four. 15 million dollars should cover a few more scholorships you know.

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  27. Bud Crawford

    How do we protect our children form becoming tax slaves to a faulty system? It is our responsibility to protect them, but How?? All we see is more lies and pandering with a lot of posturing and circular talk that has no end or point!?
    Bla bla bla bla bla bla…....Bud Crawford

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  28. Scott Bowers

    As I sit home, layed off from work but not able to collect unemployment, I get to read articles. As I finish my taxes today I now owe money that I do not even have. But they will accept payments, for a few dollars more. "Just do the right thing", I'm told.
    I was earning $800 per week before taxes with 2 kids, I still managed to save some money for a rainy day. Too bad the rainy day was last month.
    There is no we. I carry no guilt when I think of the next generation. All the religion in the world has yet to save us. It's time to believe in ourselves. The revolution starts from within. If you cannot save money on a modest income, then check your own greed. I conserve, because it saves me money.
    We need to learn to beat em at their own game. (we all know who They are!) The internet is loaded with information on financial planning, investments, and saving. Teach your kids, cause they won't learn it in school! Have worthwhile conversations about things that matter. Turn off the TV, turn off the radio, and turn your brain back on!

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    1. Walt

      Bravo chap! I like your style, and I am pretty much in the same boat you are my rainy day has lasted a while too. The last sentence in your comment should be gospel.

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  29. Kevin Loudon

    Who cares what the federal government does when we annihilate income tax. Our involuntary servitude must end! Look at the current irresponsible liberal politicians and their usurp president squandering away America's hard earned money. I say states like TX excercise their sovereignty and go to the extent of annihilating the federal governemt. The federal government has shown it does not create any value to the American people. Like a product, no value to customer, it goes defunct!

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    1. concerned.citizen

      What a dreamy proposition. I like it.

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  30. James Bond

    The above poster, southern hemper, is just trying to make ron paul supports look crazy, wouldn't be surprise if he is on the government's payroll.

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  31. Southern Hemper

    There is no such thing as an illegal alien, you are either a citizen
    or a sovereign man. The social security application and number makes
    you a citizen, indigent, resident, slave, and property of the state.
    It makes the state your god which is blasphemy. The congress is as
    corrupt as the rest of the country because not one has ever told you
    the truth.

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    1. Eoers

      This is not the place to express religious believes. The topic is income tax!!

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      1. Scoobs

        Why? There are those who believe they are intrinsicly linked.

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    2. Walt

      Blah Blah Blah, All religion are the same go preach somewhere else.

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      1. excited_2cu

        Walt ... i'll be there on the front line too

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    3. concerned.citizen

      In my research, Southern Hemper, US Citizen = slave of the Corporation of the US, someone who has exchanged his/her rights as a sovereign citizen for the privileges afforded him/her by the Corporation, thereby reducing the individual's status from one of citizen (sovereign) to one of resident (inhabitant). State citizen = sovereign citizen (i.e.-Citizen of the Republic of [fill in state's name here]).

      Please correct me if I'm wrong. I'm still learning. Much has been buried, and many lies accepted as truth. When one truth gets uncovered, many more truths begin to surface. We've been duped, and need to research the history for ourselves, then share with others. If enough people know the truth, get indignant, then individually and collectively act in support of it, things will change.

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      1. Walt

        Concerned Citizen is right we often take what we hear as truth and do very little research for ourself. There is a lot of B.S. in the field, but when we look hard we can find some clean blades of grass.

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  32. Southern Hemper

    The United States is a idol and it demands worship of it's citizens. To no longer be a citizen fill out Form SS-521 and then have the social security number, application, terminated and rescinded and then use only gold and silver coins and only trade with gold and silver. Embrace the Ten Commandments as our only way of life and the Almighty will bless you. Never acknowledge the state are you will be committing idolatry. The United States is not scriptural but the workings of Satan. If you want to be free give your allegiance to the one and only true Eternal One YHWH. The Constitution is nothing more than the bylaws of a corporation and only benefits the bankers and they can change it any time they want to suit them. People you have been lied to and deceived in thinking that you are free. You are all chattel property of the United States and the Treasury.

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    1. Fredey4130

      You have officially lost your mind. Good day sir.

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    2. Walt

      Why is that a money system that failed long before ours and kept just as many people in poverty is your way out of this mess. Maybe we should teach our kids to survive of the land, hunting, farming, fishing, and making things from wool and hemp. If we thought about it long and hard any kind of currency being used will keep a portion of the population in poverty, it always has. You materialistic whores who can't give up your cell phones, microwaves, fancy styling in cloths in which you are just paying for a name, don't want to consider that option you still want money and a form of poverty for more than half the population. Those who want to use gold must not realize they have almost all the gold too. Think about it how much gold do you or anyone you know have?????????????????????????? Start thinking with your hearts------ Slipknot said it best ALL HOPE IS GONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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    3. GTO

      So what Southern Hemper is saying is that the United States was created by a man with horns and a tail who lives in the molten center of the earth. This 'devil' created the United States for people to worship as a god and to distract people from their worship of the devil's arch enemy, an invisible man in the sky. That's a very compelling theory, Southern Hemper, but I think this thread is about INCOME TAX.

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    4. Scoobs

      Then move!!!!

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  33. Southern Hemper

    Income Tax does not go to the US at all it goes to the Treasury
    which is not even a part of the United States. The Treasury is a
    part of the United Nations and the Circle Crown Church which is
    known as the Crown Templars. The United States is in bankruptcy
    and owes money to the Crown and has put up everyone with a social
    security number up as surety for the United States debt. May God
    help everyone if the United States goes into default. The Social
    Security Card is basically a communist card. How many people are
    practicing communists? Do you have a Social Security Card? Public
    School, central bank, fiat currency, destroying the morals to make women become sluts, are just some examples of the 10 planks to the communist manifesto. The u.s.A used to keep the Ten Commandments now we have the United States Corporation that practices communism. People have turned their hearts from God and
    now practice communism. People worship the state and that is
    Statism, the only thing a man can do is abandon the social security number and repent and start practicing the Ten Commandments and divorce from the Daughters of the Mother of Harlots. Ron Paul you need to start telling the truth!

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    1. Please, Leave God Out of It

      HELLO ... SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE .....

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      1. Southern Hemper

        I admit religion is not a good thing, but practicing the Ten
        Commandments, and obeying the Almighty is not religion as long as you go strictly by the Holy Scriptures. Separation of Church and State was created to keep the Politicians from going back to keeping the Ten Commandments. People in the united states of America used to keep the Ten Commandments and the united states of America prospered like no other country. No since the united states of America incorporated and became the United States they stopped obeying the Ten Commandments and now we are a communist nation and you now have no freedom. Either serve the Eternal One and prosper or continue being a communist and stop complaining about everything. You people have made your choice now live with it.

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        1. concerned.citizen

          Southern Hemper, I agree with you about religion, as it is commonly practiced, NOT being a good thing. Yet, in its true form, when revering God and His Word as supreme, it is very useful and practical, in addition to divine. Our forefathers felt the same way, as that understanding is the foundation upon which they wrote governing documentation (i.e.-our Constitution), laws and everyday practical applications (i.e.-Bibles being used in schools to teach reading, grammar, morals and principles). Many of these same founding fathers were threatened, persecuted, imprisoned, removed from their families and vice-versa, even killed for their efforts.

          I'll have to disagree with you, though, on your statement about the separation of church and state. Its author promoted Christianity in the public forum, even public schools. He wrote it with the intention of prohibiting government from using any one particular denomination's interpretation of scripture to rule, as he had come to America from an England where a specific church ruled according to their own doctrinal beliefs (I don't recall the name at the moment, nor the denomination). He promoted the Bible as the foundation for a prosperous society, yet abhorred the thought of, in essence, being forced to follow any one church's interpretation of it.

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    2. concerned.citizen

      You're exactly right, Southern Hemper, and your candor is appreciated. Irwin Schiff, father of Peter Schiff, is rotting in jail in Terre Haute, IN for bringing these same facts to the forefront. That alone would have been forgiveable by our "mafioso" government, except he provided the necessary materials for everyday people to pay absolutely nothing in income tax and to receive every penny back taken from them under the same "authoritative" guise. True story. He, like Ron Paul, upholds the constitution and has been stripped of all his freedoms because of it. His website paynoincometax.com (sorry, don't know how to link it from this comment page) provides these materials for free now, and the details of our court system's involvement in perpetuating the fraud.

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    3. Scoobs

      If all a man has to do is observe the 10 commandments, why did Christ die on the Cross?
      And by the way, 'seperation of church and state' says the gov't can't use force or manipulation or favor because of one religion or another. It doesn't say or mean that there can be no discussion relating to religion. YOu have bought a lie if you believe that. But I don't want you to listen to me just like I don't want you to listen to the lier that told you that in the first place. YOU need to read the document yourSELF and YOU will come away with a totally different flavor than the one that has been spoon fed to you. C'mon...PROVE me wrong! READ it! I DARE you! :)

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  34. Matt

    Since these message board are oft used for thought-provoking notion unrelated to the original post, this was a good article:

    http://www.salon.com/opinion/feature/2009/04/14/christian_nation/index.html

    "The United States have adventured upon a great and noble experiment, which is believed to have been hazarded in the absence of all previous precedent -- that of total separation of Church and State. No religious establishment by law exists among us. The conscience is left free from all restraint and each is permitted to worship his Maker after his own judgment. The offices of the Government are open alike to all. No tithes are levied to support an established Hierarchy, nor is the fallible judgment of man set up as the sure and infallible creed of faith. The Mohammedan, if he will to come among us would have the privilege guaranteed to him by the constitution to worship according to the Koran; and the East Indian might erect a shrine to Brahma, if it so pleased him. Such is the spirit of toleration inculcated by our political Institutions."

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  35. Ross

    I would like to know Ron,that if you abolish income tax and have no other taxes to fill the void ,how does Govt finance it's existance?

    We in Aust brought in a consumption tax a few years ago that was to replace other taxes.It never happened.We have bloated unproductive bureaucracies sapping the lifeblood from private enterprise.Don't ever get consumption tax since it kills small business.Small business due to competition during hard times absorbs most of the tax.You can suffer a loss and still end up paying tax.

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    1. Eoers

      Income tax goes entirely to paying interest (and interest on the interest) on money borrowed by the government! Refinance the debt, end the Fed, and there is no need for paying this unconstitutional burden anymore. Besides, as you can see the current system does not work at all. Year by year higher taxation still the debt is rising to astronomical values. This is how much we love our children. Let them be the slaves and pay back the money for our stupidity, greed,
      and egoism.

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      1. Walt

        I love hearing intelligent people speak. Ross you should listen to Eoers.

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        1. Ross

          Walt ,never take any revolutionary idea at face value.There is too much Hollywood hero worship and not enough people asking the difficult questions.This is how we got into this debacle in the first place.The key to workable systems is accountability.The Fed is not accountable and nor it seems is Congress.

          If Ron Paul or anyone else has a workable alternative to income tax,then he must also reveal the detail.The devil is always in the detail,otherwise we just go to one level of chaos to another.That is in no ones' interest.

          I'm not bagging Ron Paul.I think that he is a genuine person with the best of intensions for the US public,however people must learn to ask the difficult questions of their pollies no matter who they are.

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          1. Walt

            Very true; real questions are seldom asked. Taking what we hear for truth while failing to investigate for ourselves has become the protocol. Thank you for the reply.

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    2. Mike

      The gov't finances it's existence by cutting down on its outrageous and inefficient spending. The gov't doesn't need half the money it is throwing away (and they would probably just have the Federal Reserve create the money out of thin air if they didn't get it from us) and if we got rid of the income tax, we would have about the same revenue as we did around the year 2000. There is no need for the income tax if the gov't controls it's insatiable appetite for debt and inefficiency.

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      1. bresail4

        This is an update, from the House majority leader. They have no intention of getting rid of Federal Reserve. It stats cut our deficit by 2/3 not getting rid of it. How can they just keep on with this fake revenue service and not stop it. Will the people ever stand together and stop the extortion?

        WASHINGTON, DC - House Majority Leader Steny H. Hoyer (MD) released the following statement today in response to President Obama's address on the economy:

        “This morning, President Obama explained the recklessness that led us into this recession, as well as the essential steps it will take to get us out. Many of those steps—such as the Recovery Act, the tax cut for 95% of Americans, and the Administration’s plans to restore the flow of small business and mortgage lending—have already begun to take effect, creating jobs across America. None of the steps toward economic recovery can be judged in isolation, and even working together, they will not prevent 2009 from being a difficult year for our economy. But Democrats’ recovery efforts are cushioning the blow of this recession and preparing us for a return to prosperity.

        “President Obama also spoke about the long-term foundation we can build, so that our recovery is long-lasting and widely shared. It will include a sensible set of financial regulations to prevent a recurrence of the kind of collapse we have just experienced, as well as intelligent investments in the education of our workforce, cutting-edge energy technologies, and access to affordable healthcare. Finally, we have an opportunity to end the fiscally reckless ways of the past by reducing our deficit, taking on spiraling healthcare costs, and finding the bipartisan will to confront the problem of entitlement reform. In fact, I was very pleased that the President identified fiscal responsibility as one of the key pillars of recovery.

        “This month, the House passed a budget that starts work on many of the goals outlined by President Obama, making important long-term investments while cutting our deficit by nearly two-thirds by 2013. I look forward to working with the Senate to finalize the budget, a document that will lay the strong foundation of which the President spoke today.”

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        1. Walt

          You just keep on believing that. I will see you all on the front lines.

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          1. Walt

            Couldn't agree with you more Mike

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    3. Gary Bydlo

      The whole point of abolishing income tax goes along with abolshing big government as well. We don't need a FEDERAL government. Each State can be responsible for itself and raise whatever taxes it needs to build roads, etc. And I don't mean INCOME tax. Sales tax is more than enough. Federal government is nothing but an intrusion on our lives as free Americans. Abolish it too!

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