Comments on: The Solution to Piracy: Self-Defense and Marque & Reprisal http://www.ronpaul.com/2009-04-20/the-solution-to-piracy-self-defense-and-marque-reprisal/ Ron Paul is America's leading voice for limited, constitutional government, low taxes, free markets, sound money, and a pro-American foreign policy. Fri, 10 Feb 2012 02:40:03 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Mikehttp://www.ronpaul.com/2009-04-20/the-solution-to-piracy-self-defense-and-marque-reprisal/comment-page-1/#comment-18475 Mike Thu, 30 Apr 2009 22:14:48 +0000 http://www.ronpaul.com/?p=2021#comment-18475 Greg,Re the U.S. restoring law and order...well, that's one of the reasons for our intervention just about anywhere-including Somalia 12+- years ago. It always starts out that way, then ends up with people such as yourself criticizing us for it. If we're going to go through the hardship, in lives and dollars, of intervening anywhere, I say we have a right to do it in a way that benefits our self interest. It's an ugly business no matter how you go about it, so all else being equal we might as well benefit, perhaps by ending up with a leader sympathetic to U.S. interests. To expect pure altruism is naive. Greg,

Re the U.S. restoring law and order…well, that’s one of the reasons for our intervention just about anywhere-including Somalia 12+- years ago. It always starts out that way, then ends up with people such as yourself criticizing us for it. If we’re going to go through the hardship, in lives and dollars, of intervening anywhere, I say we have a right to do it in a way that benefits our self interest. It’s an ugly business no matter how you go about it, so all else being equal we might as well benefit, perhaps by ending up with a leader sympathetic to U.S. interests. To expect pure altruism is naive.

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]]> By: Greghttp://www.ronpaul.com/2009-04-20/the-solution-to-piracy-self-defense-and-marque-reprisal/comment-page-1/#comment-18420 Greg Thu, 30 Apr 2009 18:19:14 +0000 http://www.ronpaul.com/?p=2021#comment-18420 1. No, it makes the western nations responsible for the conditions that allow piracy to flourish. We must take responsibility for our actions.2. No. It makes it illegal for western nations to use those waters for dumping toxic waste and over-fishing. Again, we need to take responsibility for our illegal actions.3. And seamen will start coming home in body bags. Tactics will surely change and boat will be sunk and lives will be lost. I wouldn't be surprised if the insurance companies, who are footing the bill for the ransoms paid, don't prevent the arming of ships. They'd much rather ransom the boat than see it sunk or the crew killed (wrongful death payouts and all).4. I think we can all agree we need in the future to get out of the business of toppling foreign governments. But now that we've done it, we gotta clean up our own mess. My dog shits in your yard then I need to clean it up.I never said that piracy is acceptable. I said it is a result of US and European actions in the region and we left a big mess that we need to clean up. The rule of law must apply equally to the pirates as well as to westerners. Our actions have been no less illegal. I believe that arming merchant ships will only escalate the violence and will do nothing to solve the problem until the underlying causes (anarchy, pollution, starvation) are addressed. 1. No, it makes the western nations responsible for the conditions that allow piracy to flourish. We must take responsibility for our actions.

2. No. It makes it illegal for western nations to use those waters for dumping toxic waste and over-fishing. Again, we need to take responsibility for our illegal actions.

3. And seamen will start coming home in body bags. Tactics will surely change and boat will be sunk and lives will be lost. I wouldn’t be surprised if the insurance companies, who are footing the bill for the ransoms paid, don’t prevent the arming of ships. They’d much rather ransom the boat than see it sunk or the crew killed (wrongful death payouts and all).

4. I think we can all agree we need in the future to get out of the business of toppling foreign governments. But now that we’ve done it, we gotta clean up our own mess. My dog shits in your yard then I need to clean it up.

I never said that piracy is acceptable. I said it is a result of US and European actions in the region and we left a big mess that we need to clean up. The rule of law must apply equally to the pirates as well as to westerners. Our actions have been no less illegal. I believe that arming merchant ships will only escalate the violence and will do nothing to solve the problem until the underlying causes (anarchy, pollution, starvation) are addressed.

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]]> By: Greghttp://www.ronpaul.com/2009-04-20/the-solution-to-piracy-self-defense-and-marque-reprisal/comment-page-1/#comment-18419 Greg Thu, 30 Apr 2009 18:00:08 +0000 http://www.ronpaul.com/?p=2021#comment-18419 So when crews of these cargo ships start coming home in body bags and boats continue to be hijacked, this will constitute an improvement because you killed a couple of African thugs? Sure you get to wave your dick around like you're some sort of big man, but now the situation is even worse. We can't stop the bombings ON LAND in Iraq despite all the US military stationed over there. It is absurd to think you're going to stop them AT SEA by giving pop-guns to a few sailors. So when crews of these cargo ships start coming home in body bags and boats continue to be hijacked, this will constitute an improvement because you killed a couple of African thugs? Sure you get to wave your dick around like you’re some sort of big man, but now the situation is even worse. We can’t stop the bombings ON LAND in Iraq despite all the US military stationed over there. It is absurd to think you’re going to stop them AT SEA by giving pop-guns to a few sailors.

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]]> By: Joe Blowhttp://www.ronpaul.com/2009-04-20/the-solution-to-piracy-self-defense-and-marque-reprisal/comment-page-1/#comment-18407 Joe Blow Thu, 30 Apr 2009 15:53:27 +0000 http://www.ronpaul.com/?p=2021#comment-18407 "It was actually rather peaceful (insurance companies paid the ransoms and the crew were relatively well treated) until they took a ship under US flag and we wouldn’t play ball."So as long as they don't kill anyone, piracy is OK with you?"I’m not saying that we should have paid up and I believe the situation was well handled. But you can’t solve piracy on a case by case basis."Sure you can. In every case, kill the pirates. Problem solved. “It was actually rather peaceful (insurance companies paid the ransoms and the crew were relatively well treated) until they took a ship under US flag and we wouldn’t play ball.”

So as long as they don’t kill anyone, piracy is OK with you?

“I’m not saying that we should have paid up and I believe the situation was well handled. But you can’t solve piracy on a case by case basis.”

Sure you can. In every case, kill the pirates. Problem solved.

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]]> By: Joe Blowhttp://www.ronpaul.com/2009-04-20/the-solution-to-piracy-self-defense-and-marque-reprisal/comment-page-1/#comment-18406 Joe Blow Thu, 30 Apr 2009 15:50:39 +0000 http://www.ronpaul.com/?p=2021#comment-18406 Blah blah blah. The point remains that westerners drew first blood.1. Europeans poluted the waters and decimated the fisheries. 2. Most attacks are within the EEZ although some are further out. 3. Arming merchant vessels will only lead to an escalation of violence and will not reduce piracy. 4. The United States is directly responsible for the chaos in Somalia and have a moral and humanitarian obligation to restore stability in Somalia. If we don’t want to be in the business of nation building, then we need to get out of the business of nation-destroying. ********************************************************That's nice. Your argument has been defeated, so your respond with an insult.#1. And that makes piracy OK in your mind?#2. So it's OK for them to commit piracy if the ship is within 200nm of Somalia?#3. No, it will escalate the number of pirates killed when they try to jack a ship in INTERNATIONAL WATERS.#4. Right... we tried to help them once before. Remember what happened?Why don't you enlighten us all and tell us when piracy ISN'T acceptable? Blah blah blah. The point remains that westerners drew first blood.

1. Europeans poluted the waters and decimated the fisheries.
2. Most attacks are within the EEZ although some are further out.
3. Arming merchant vessels will only lead to an escalation of violence and will not reduce piracy.
4. The United States is directly responsible for the chaos in Somalia and have a moral and humanitarian obligation to restore stability in Somalia. If we don’t want to be in the business of nation building, then we need to get out of the business of nation-destroying.
********************************************************

That’s nice. Your argument has been defeated, so your respond with an insult.

#1. And that makes piracy OK in your mind?

#2. So it’s OK for them to commit piracy if the ship is within 200nm of Somalia?

#3. No, it will escalate the number of pirates killed when they try to jack a ship in INTERNATIONAL WATERS.

#4. Right… we tried to help them once before. Remember what happened?

Why don’t you enlighten us all and tell us when piracy ISN’T acceptable?

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]]> By: Greghttp://www.ronpaul.com/2009-04-20/the-solution-to-piracy-self-defense-and-marque-reprisal/comment-page-1/#comment-18403 Greg Thu, 30 Apr 2009 15:25:58 +0000 http://www.ronpaul.com/?p=2021#comment-18403 They got the guns and boats by stealing them. They are ransoming ships and their crews for multi-million dollar ransoms. It was actually rather peaceful (insurance companies paid the ransoms and the crew were relatively well treated) until they took a ship under US flag and we wouldn't play ball. I'm not saying that we should have paid up and I believe the situation was well handled. But you can't solve piracy on a case by case basis. You have to correct the underlying problem which means nation-building. We destroyed Somalia and we have a moral and humanitarian obligation to restore law & order. Reparations need to be paid by the criminal dumpers for the damage done by illegal polution and over-fishing. They got the guns and boats by stealing them. They are ransoming ships and their crews for multi-million dollar ransoms. It was actually rather peaceful (insurance companies paid the ransoms and the crew were relatively well treated) until they took a ship under US flag and we wouldn’t play ball. I’m not saying that we should have paid up and I believe the situation was well handled. But you can’t solve piracy on a case by case basis. You have to correct the underlying problem which means nation-building. We destroyed Somalia and we have a moral and humanitarian obligation to restore law & order. Reparations need to be paid by the criminal dumpers for the damage done by illegal polution and over-fishing.

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]]> By: Greghttp://www.ronpaul.com/2009-04-20/the-solution-to-piracy-self-defense-and-marque-reprisal/comment-page-1/#comment-18401 Greg Thu, 30 Apr 2009 15:17:49 +0000 http://www.ronpaul.com/?p=2021#comment-18401 Blah blah blah. The point remains that westerners drew first blood.1. Europeans poluted the waters and decimated the fisheries. 2. Most attacks are within the EEZ although some are further out. 3. Arming merchant vessels will only lead to an escalation of violence and will not reduce piracy. 4. The United States is directly responsible for the chaos in Somalia and have a moral and humanitarian obligation to restore stability in Somalia. If we don't want to be in the business of nation building, then we need to get out of the business of nation-destroying. Blah blah blah. The point remains that westerners drew first blood.

1. Europeans poluted the waters and decimated the fisheries.
2. Most attacks are within the EEZ although some are further out.
3. Arming merchant vessels will only lead to an escalation of violence and will not reduce piracy.
4. The United States is directly responsible for the chaos in Somalia and have a moral and humanitarian obligation to restore stability in Somalia. If we don’t want to be in the business of nation building, then we need to get out of the business of nation-destroying.

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]]> By: Kennyhttp://www.ronpaul.com/2009-04-20/the-solution-to-piracy-self-defense-and-marque-reprisal/comment-page-1/#comment-18373 Kenny Wed, 29 Apr 2009 21:57:42 +0000 http://www.ronpaul.com/?p=2021#comment-18373 The Somalia government, let say for grins it exist, has the internationally recognized right to do as it pleases with 12 NM of their coast. It also has the right to regulate non-transient commercial activity up to 200 nm, such as fishing and drilling.Arming ship moving through the area make sense, and would very cheap.However Ron Paul is wrong about issuing a license, (which is what a letter of marque is) to Blackwater to go into Somalia and arrest the pirates, under US law, would be received by the international community. The Somalia government, let say for grins it exist, has the internationally recognized right to do as it pleases with 12 NM of their coast. It also has the right to regulate non-transient commercial activity up to 200 nm, such as fishing and drilling.

Arming ship moving through the area make sense, and would very cheap.

However Ron Paul is wrong about issuing a license, (which is what a letter of marque is) to Blackwater to go into Somalia and arrest the pirates, under US law, would be received by the international community.

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]]> By: Joe Blowhttp://www.ronpaul.com/2009-04-20/the-solution-to-piracy-self-defense-and-marque-reprisal/comment-page-1/#comment-18309 Joe Blow Wed, 29 Apr 2009 02:29:26 +0000 http://www.ronpaul.com/?p=2021#comment-18309 "Somalia has exclusive economic rights extending up to 200 nautical miles off of the coast. Not the 12 mile figure that I assume you pulled out of your ass."*********************************************No, I pulled it out of the UNs ass:Section 2, Article 3.http://www.un.org/Depts/los/convention_agreements/texts/unclos/part2.htm>>>"Breadth of the territorial seaEvery State has the right to establish the breadth of its territorial sea up to a limit not exceeding 12 nautical miles, measured from baselines determined in accordance with this Convention."<<<But that doesn't really matter, because even if Somalia claims and has been granted a 200 nm EEZ, the area where the ships are being jacked is 304 nautical miles off the coast. Do the math. That's more than 100 nautical miles outside their EEZ. “Somalia has exclusive economic rights extending up to 200 nautical miles off of the coast. Not the 12 mile figure that I assume you pulled out of your ass.”

*********************************************

No, I pulled it out of the UNs ass:

Section 2, Article 3.

http://www.un.org/Depts/los/convention_agreements/texts/unclos/part2.htm

>>>”Breadth of the territorial sea

Every State has the right to establish the breadth of its territorial sea up to a limit not exceeding 12 nautical miles, measured from baselines determined in accordance with this Convention.”<<<

But that doesn’t really matter, because even if Somalia claims and has been granted a 200 nm EEZ, the area where the ships are being jacked is 304 nautical miles off the coast. Do the math. That’s more than 100 nautical miles outside their EEZ.

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]]> By: Mikehttp://www.ronpaul.com/2009-04-20/the-solution-to-piracy-self-defense-and-marque-reprisal/comment-page-1/#comment-18298 Mike Tue, 28 Apr 2009 23:27:48 +0000 http://www.ronpaul.com/?p=2021#comment-18298 I don't think I ever said anything about blowing anyone out of the water. My understanding is that a good number of these criminals have been tried in Kenyan courts. How about a World Court? I dunno- I imagine that wouldn't mean much to a sailor on a merchant vessel with an AK-47 in his or her face, a perspective which I think validates Cong. Paul's point. Understand this, though: if we can't even go so far as to even identify the pirates as criminals, we enter an endless cycle of platitutes and meaningless phrases like "a more viable option may be found." Like what....Option 2 perhaps? One other point: where exactly did these poor starving Somali's get the guns and fancy boat? And who is fencing the booty? Sounds to me like someone needs to get overthrown, but I guess that would be...what's the word...arrogant? I don’t think I ever said anything about blowing anyone out of the water. My understanding is that a good number of these criminals have been tried in Kenyan courts. How about a World Court? I dunno- I imagine that wouldn’t mean much to a sailor on a merchant vessel with an AK-47 in his or her face, a perspective which I think validates Cong. Paul’s point. Understand this, though: if we can’t even go so far as to even identify the pirates as criminals, we enter an endless cycle of platitutes and meaningless phrases like “a more viable option may be found.” Like what….Option 2 perhaps?
One other point: where exactly did these poor starving Somali’s get the guns and fancy boat? And who is fencing the booty? Sounds to me like someone needs to get overthrown, but I guess that would be…what’s the word…arrogant?

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