Ron Paul and Lew Rockwell discuss Obamacare, Swine Flu and Big Government

Last week Ron Paul sat down with his old friend Lew Rockwell to discuss Obamacare, liberty, the swine flu, and the dangers of big government.

Date: 8/18/2009


Lew Rockwell: Around these days it seems like the hot issue is Obama’s socialized medical bill or do we call it a fascist medical bill or interventionist medical bill? I don’t know, but it involves vastly increasing. There are already horrible amount of government intervention in the medical system. But it looks like there is so much opposition. Is he going to get it through?

Ron Paul: One thing we can agree on it’s not a free market approach to medical care. I don’t think he’ll get the whole thing through. You know, looking back at what has happened with my bit of an experience in Washington is that they never get everything, but they always get a bunch and I imagine he’s going to keep moving this.

But they’ve been doing this for maybe 50 years. Incrementalism, the American people accept incrementalism. But you know, if in the 1940s or 1950s, they would have said, “We want social healthcare,” The American people would have rebelled, and even today they resent being in socialized medicine and they’re rebelling, but they’re going to take a little bit more and they’ll keep moving. So I think they’re going to move in that direction and you know, Republicans are doing a pretty good job in opposing it, but the Democrats have more votes.

But the real tragedy is whether you have the Republicans in charge or the Democrats in charge, you know what happens, it still marches on. I mean, look at what happened under Bush. We had that prescription drug program and it sailed right through and here we go, we’re even looking for a much greater influence from government, so unfortunately, I don’t think this is going to be much benefit to our patients.

Lew Rockwell: And of course, you’re right about both parties having increased government intervention in medicine. As you’ve pointed out that with Hill Burton and starting with the Eisenhower administration in the 1950s, whereas Truman, even at the height of his popularity could not get a socialized medicine bill through.

Ron Paul: Right.

Lew Rockwell: Yet, Eisenhower did it. Of course, LBJ with Medicare and Medicaid. Nixon with the HMOs and Healthcare Financing Administration and Reagan increased intervention in medical care and Clinton and so I guess Obama is going to just continue on that same path.

Ron Paul: So you can understand and empathize with those people who are getting angry, especially that they’ve been introduced to free markets and believe in liberty and believe in the Constitution, let them be angry and I think it’s very justified that people are upset and angry, and hopefully this is a healthy sign that people are starting to realize that the federal government can’t deliver and ultimately, I think that’s what our country is facing; a government that can’t deliver, but that should be a very positive thing for us if we come of it without violence, I think this could be very helpful to us.

Lew Rockwell: I think it’s thrilling. Of course, the government uses only violence, right? I mean, that’s how they get their medical bill through. If you don’t obey, if you don’t pay their taxes, they use violence against you. But the opposition, they’re just arguing against these things.

Ron Paul: Yeah, they have a lot of guns that they use. You know, I argued that we should have gun control on all the federal bureaucrats. I think we have 100,000 federal bureaucrats who carry guns now. When you think of all of the agencies of government, they’re permitted to carry guns and of course, sometimes that one individual American have guns, the left goes nuts, you know, “What, somebody has a gun?”

Lew Rockwell: Because these guys will bring them on planes. They can carry them anywhere. State law doesn’t apply to them. They sail above it.

Ron Paul: That’s right and that’s what should really scare us. What scares me is the use of the gun to take away our liberties. You know, even though they’re not shooting at us, the gun is always behind everything that they do and just the idea of paying for this medical program, where are they going to get the money? It’s all the use of force and guns. They go to the IRS and then, of course, they borrow money and they pay interest on this money, then they use force, a sinister tack like inflation, the Fed prints the money, and then they haven’t talked that much about paying for this bill.

Obama talks about all these good things that are going to come from it, but I don’t even think the conservatives have done a real good job in talking about the real cost of this thing. You know, where does this come from? And what amazes me is we have… we’re living in a period of time now where the national debt has gone up to $2 trillion this year and it doesn’t hardly even faze him to talk about another program they claim is going to be a trillion, but you know that have you ever seen a government program proposed to cost a billion or 2 billion or 10 billion and not being 2 or 3 times more.

So this is not going to cost a trillion dollars because they can’t know. Because costs are always going to go up. You know, so what they’re projecting… I mean, their programs, their computers are telling, “Well, everything is going to cost this much.” Oh, yes, but we’re going to get rid of the waste and fraud and that’s how they’re going to pay for it.

Lew Rockwell: I also like the fact that they claim that they’re going to cut costs. I mean, government loves spending money, they sort of exist to spend money. So when in human history has any government ever cut the cost of anything?

Ron Paul: When you think about how much the bureaucracy costs in lost time and inefficiency with the little cost of paying these people and who thinks for a minute they’ll be less federal bureaucrats involved in this program. You know, the one thing that bothers me is it’s going to involve some bureaucrats and that is this electronic surveillance of all the medical records. You know, the procedures are already in place. They’ve gotten the authority to set up the medical documentation of electronic records.

In this bill, if it pass, has $50 billion in there. So if anybody cares about medical privacy, it’s essentially gone. This HIPAA thing that came up a few years ago, it was designed… it has made everything accessible to the government and to the big insurance companies.

Lew Rockwell: In the name of privacy.

Ron Paul: Yeah, in the name of privacy and now, they’re talking about making it… but what they want to do is monitor every single transaction; everything the patient does, everything the nurse does, everything the doctor does, and how many pills have been prescribed and monitor this and review everything to find out if everybody is doing the right thing and they think they’re going to bring down the costs. It bewilders me to think that anybody could believe this stuff.

Lew Rockwell: And who can doubt that your medical records would be part of your dossier to be accessible to the Department of Homeland Security, maybe every cop on the beat. They’re going to have all that information on you; your financial information, legal information, medical information.

Ron Paul: Yeah, and you know, that under the HIPAA law, they explicitly say that you’re protected, unless the government needs these records for health matters and think about all the hype on this flu… this swine flu and they’re getting ready for that and are we going to have mandatory inoculations and all this and then you’re going to be in a computer, “Oh, Joe Blow, he didn’t get his shot, you know, round him up.” So it’s scary stuff. You know, it looks like it’ll make 1984 look attractive one of these days.

Lew Rockwell: It sure was interesting how disappointed, openly disappointed they were when the swine flu business didn’t bloom into the full-fledged epidemic they were hoping for.

Ron Paul: No, and they’re still sort of hoping for it. You know, they’re trying to do this and all that… and I guess, you do remember a little bit about 1976, when we were worried about […]. You remember Larry McDonald and I voting against that thing.

Lew Rockwell: Yes.

Ron Paul: And more people died from the inoculation than did from the flu. But you know, this isn’t… I never want to belittle the principle of inoculations. I think people get way, way to many and we break down our immune system, but the whole idea, if it’s a shot that’s good or bad, why is it that it has to be massive and why is it that it have to be with everybody? Why is it that it has to be the government? Why can’t the parents make these decisions? Why can’t the doctors make these decisions on whether somebody has to get a flu shot? And you can argue the pros and cons of that, but this idea that there’s going to be a government decision, you know, the Federal government is going to make the decision and of course, drug companies tend to be involved as well. Oh, boy, I guess that is going to be a big customer if I can do a flu shot for everybody in the country.

Lew Rockwell: And of course, this always leaks into foreign policy, it seems too, given the empire. So I remember when the Ford administration used the swine flu virus to attempt to infect all the farm animals in Cuba in an active germ warfare, right? We call it an act of terrorism today if somebody else were doing it into the US.

Ron Paul: No, no, that’s verging on conspiracy.

Lew Rockwell: Yeah.

Ron Paul: Now, you’re telling the truth, telling the truth about what our CIA has done over the years. You know, you might find out that not too… in recent years or decades, when they did this survey and find out that we’ve attempted over 50 assassination of government leaders. So whether it’s the health matters or oil or whatever, I think we’re way too much involved, so…

Lew Rockwell: That’s for sure. Ron, thank you so much.

Ron Paul: Okay, good. It’s good to talk to you, Lew.

Lew Rockwell: And also to you.

  • VR

    Please help however you can

    We are halfway home

  • christine


    Please share. Use your pause button to read important facts about the swine flu vaccine, Baxter’s history, lethal testing results, testing process, trials, other drug results it produced, more.

  • christine
  • christine

    1/10 Jane, Amanda & Paul – EMTV On The Edge – August 13, 2009

  • VR
  • VR

    “If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.”

  • longshotlouie
  • Jones

    It is important that the medical community, including the vaccine producing companies, and the respective governments comment on this controversy that is causing damage even before is used. And that they reassure the public it is safe and useful, and stand by that.

    After all that has happened, after the reccurrent waves of ’emotions’ received by the population (call it emotional vaccines), after all the uncertainty dropped onto people, it is not just fair, it’s neccesary, and maybe should be part of public health care and of public policy.

    The people need to pull out of this miserable anguish, and the best approach is job creation.

    So why not make effective OTC products that decrease the spread of the virus (gels, creams, soaps, sprays, etc), in the USA, and sell it to the vaccine companies to market it at the same time?

    Anyway, people need to be reassured, and if false rumors are spread they should be stopped, no one is gaining with this, not normal people anyway.

  • Emory Tests H1N1 Vaccine on Children

    This is just appalling to me!

    “Emory University and Children’s Healthcare of Atlanta are vaccinating 100 children against the H1N1 “swine flu” virus. The vaccinations are part of a national pediatric study that began last week.

    Federal health officials approved H1N1 vaccine studies on children after similar adult trials raised no major safety concerns.

    “It may be even more important to do these studies in children,” said Mark Mulligan, MD, associate director for clinical trials at the Emory Vaccine Center. “Children are infected more often, and with more serious consequences, than are healthy adults.”

    “We think that seniors might have seen a virus like this a long time ago and might have some residual protection or immunity,” said Anne Schuchat, MD, director of the National Center for Immunization and Respiratory Diseases at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention in Atlanta. “Young people, with all (their social interactions), and never having encountered this virus before, seem to be the ones with the very high attack rates.”

    Emory is one of six locations around the nation conducting a “combination trial” Up to 650 children nationwide will receive both the H1N1 vaccine and seasonal flu vaccine at the same time to determine whether simultaneous vaccinations will safely protect them from infection.

    Another trial, taking place at five other locations around the country, will help determine the proper dosage — whether children require injections of 15 or 30 micrograms of vaccine to build up immunity.”

    I would NEVER, volunteer/surrender my children for anything that would or could put their lives in jeopardy, much less to be human guinea pigs!

    I am certain supporters showing their solidarity to O is the motivation behind this insane act.

    The h1n1 vaccination is too controversial and the side affects may be immediate or may not be known for decades.

    • christine

      Some people choose not to do their own research to know what is in these vaccines.

      Unfortunately, when they don’t, it’s just as serious for the rest of us that do know…when it become airborne.

      There have been many who have made the connection with vaccines and other illnesses, like Jenny McCarth and Jim Carry. I’m thinking Michael J. Fox and his campaign for Parkinsons is the same issue, vaccines. As is Bono’s campaign in Africa concerning HIV/AIDS. See the video of the Merck interview that was cut from the one aired on TV. Shocking info as to what is actually in vaccines…cancer cells, hiv/aids…

      Even TV ads for medications, giving the list of side effects.

      We’ve departed from the natural immune system and supportive natural products that was already given to us before big pharma. Few know about what they are eating, knowledge about nutritious foods, what’s in our water, our air, in the soil where our food comes from.

      And the big kicker is, we’ve handed trust for all this over to the government instead of using our own minds. Their interests are not our own. They stopped listening long ago.

      • christine

        Merck Vaccine Chief Brings HIV/AIDS to America

        And no one talks about this. This portion of the interview was cut from the televised interview. Don’t you think people should know? And the money for the “cures” of these illnesses goes on and on through foundations, while people are still receiving vaccinations. Purposefully counterproductive for big pharma, to channel large funds through big corps and foundations (Rockefeller) to work hand and hand with the government towards the NWO? I would say so.

      • Massachusetts has made it mandatory now for the flu vaccine. If you don’t get vaccinated, you will receive a fine and/or will be imprisoned.

        What is happening to our country, again, is not a liberal or conservative issue.

        We are being overthrown and the main stream media is not informing the public. They are in bed with this administration but worse, it is bigger than that.

        I can’t believe I am even seeing this much less, saying it.

        People, do your due diligence. Get rid of your bias and loyalty to parties. Our parties have been over taken by marxist and communist with the same goals/agendas.

        Google and see what these progressives are saying in interviews. Check out who the president is being advised by. His czars, his politicians, our politicians.

        Stop using the race card. This is how they are gaining power. Fear monguling.

        Check out a recent statement by this politician, which by the way, has made more than one inference toward socialism/communism.

        Wake up. This is going to affect everyone. Not just these immunizations. The whole structure and your constitutional rights are in jeopardy and it is happening quickly and quietly for the most part.

      • christine

        What I am hoping to see is like any other healing process, that first the exposure/awareness is made of all of what makes humanity sick via so many aspects of our lives, from our financial system, to corrupt political leaders, to our sickcare system that feeds big pharam, our food, water, air, plant life, brainwashing, control freaks who would be declared insane if they underwent psych examinations…so that we can see the “cause”, GET RID OF IT, and transform our way of life into something beautiful, into how life was meant to be lived…in peace, with love and care for each other and our tiny little planet in the all of the universe. We are at a crossroads of a transformation…for something good to happen.

  • christine

    EMERGENCY UPDATE: Leaked French Government Document reveals details of WHO forced mass murder vaccination programme starting September 28th: MORE SOON

    check back for the news updates at

    This is very good news!!!! Gotcha News! and I hope we are going to from here forward watch the unraveling of this plot to depopulate and commit mass murder worldwide.

  • longshotlouie
    • Dolores Y

      3 guesses and the first two don’t count

  • longshotlouie

    “This used to be America,” argued a protester outside a health-care town hall meeting in Reston, Va., after a security officer threatened him with arrest for holding up a sign with a picture critical of Barack Obama.

    The officer’s response?

    “It ain’t no more, OK?”

    • Dolores Y

      Glad you posted that. I was going to. And yes, 60 years of compromising brought us to this place.

      I remember Keith Green, a christian singer, deceased now, had an album out called, “No Compromise”

      Never thought I would see this day come to pass. Not in my life time.

    • christine

      …and I cry.

  • longshotlouie
  • longshotlouie

    Internet companies and civil liberties groups were alarmed this spring when a U.S. Senate bill proposed handing the White House the power to disconnect private-sector computers from the Internet.

    They’re not much happier about a revised version that aides to Sen. Jay Rockefeller, a West Virginia Democrat, have spent months drafting behind closed doors. CNET News has obtained a copy of the 55-page draft of S.773, which still appears to permit the president to seize temporary control of private-sector networks during a so-called cybersecurity emergency.

  • VR,0,134776.story

    The proposed tax notices arriving in mailboxes in Miami-Dade and Broward counties in recent days have stirred a wave of protest, with homeowners taking to the streets Thursday and others dialing their property appraisers’ offices by the thousands.

    Many homeowners, already feeling pressure from high unemployment, a tumbling stock market and dwindling property values, were angry when they opened their TRIM — Truth In Millage — notices to find a property tax increase awaiting them, too.

    “They are going berserk,” said Charlotte Greenbarg, a Hollywood resident and president of the Broward Coalition, which represents homeowners and condo owners. “People are absolutely flipping out.”


    If you poke a stick into a fireant mound ……….

    • christine

      “They” are taunting and provoking. “They” want martial law. It would make it so much easier for them. They want more destabilization, more panic, chaos, anger, military involvement, fear, all the negative emotions.

      • mobus

        The are all very evil.

  • VR

    Court orders Christian Child Into Government Education:
    10-year-old’s ‘vigorous’ defense of her faith condemned by judge

  • longshotlouie

    Congressman Demands to See Constituent’s ID Before Allowing Town Hall Question

  • longshotlouie

    Obama Appoints Monsanto Fox to Guard Food Safety Hen House

  • VR

    Why Conservatives and Liberals Dislike Libertarians

    Six Myths About Libertarianism

  • VR