I just want to know, why did big government work so well in the ’40s, ’50s, and ’60s?

I mean your point that big government discourages fat cats from investing in the American economy is proven nonsense. Corporations have EFFECTIVELY the lowest tax rate in the industrialized world, paying less than 6%, I realize that the statutory rate is over 30%, but that goes to show how many loopholes there are. Most big corporations pay close to no taxes at all. The top marginal rate hasn’t been this low since the ’20s and neither has the capital gains rate. So how low do their taxes need to go?! Sheez.

Top rates of 91% and a Corporate tax rate of 50%, fat cats invested, and fat cats got rich. So the FACT is, it’s not that we drove them away with higher taxes, it’s that we let them get away by getting rid of tariffs.

When productivity increases, wages need to increase. The last 30 years they have not because of the war on unions and the exportation of jobs. We have substituted debt for wages, that’s what has kept demand up with supply. Well it’s finally happening, the average person can’t go in anymore debt, nor can our country as a whole. This is the same thing that happened in the ’20s.

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I find it interesting how you create a correlation between Union Membership, Marginal Tax rates and Personal Middle class wealth?

While I do admit that Unions have had their benefits for the oppressed factory and mine workers of the early 20th century, those jobs have all but disappeared from the American landscape.

Yes Union membership has shrunk rapidly in the Industrial sector but it has increased dramatically in the Public Sector, ala, Public school teachers, fireman, police, federal government employees and on and on. ALL at a massive cost to the American tax payer with little if any added value to the PUBLIC. The public unions have grown so FAT with all their retirement programs they can no longer be sustained. AGAIN I repeat myself… EVERY PERA benefit program across the country is technically BANKRUPT, BILLION IN THE RED

YOUR SOLUTION is to force more Unionization of every industry that remains. Carpenter, plumbers, electricians, doctors, nurses, and even prostitutes. Oh wait a minute, you do that and we’ll all become prostitutes for the Unions. LOL

Yes real wages have become “stagnant”. That’s what happens when an economy flips from a 70% producers / 30% service to a 30% producers and a 70% service economy. No one buys your union made stuff because everyone else in the world makes it better and cheaper.

NO, the more money the rich have does nothing to affect wages, there is no correlation here. BUT what would INDUCE those rich fat cats to INVEST in the American economy to help create those new jobs???? A reduced threat of government confiscation with ever higher Taxes might be a start!!
You bash “trickle-down theory” without close analysis, well how is that trickle-up poverty working, not very well is it. Neither of us has ever worked for a poor man, go figure.

#1. Corporations are not human beings, NOT!!! They ARE People who incorporate to build an industry to pool their assets as share holders and take risks to build a product that people want. Cities and Unions are Corporations they are ENTITLED TO FREE SPEECH, why do you want to gag certain corporation? Maybe you have a real prejudice here?

#2. YOU ARE RIGHT!!!! The GOAL is to RAISE everyone’s standard of performance and living. But More Government does neither; it simply creates barriers and favors that perpetuate the disparities.

#3. HALF TRUE… If a company does not pay a competitive “market wage”, those workers will go elsewhere, that’s assuming there is an elsewhere. But if a union moves in and demands double the market wage, the businesses leave and go off-shore. Take heart… A recent news report in the WSJ suggests that the trend is that many large businesses are moving back to their home countries. It seems that the Europeans and Americans are smarter and harder workers, better productivity…. Uhmmmmm That’s very interesting.

I’m a radical Libertarian! I’m for the USA offering numerous TAX FREE ZONES for both foreign and domestic rich fat cats to invest their money here in the USA and build new high tech plants, building better stuff (including nails). Now the real task is making sure those poorly educated folks in Detroit and other depressed areas TOOL UP and prepare for their new future in a technological economy. Indonesian, Taiwan, South Korea, China, India and even Ireland have done it and the result is they took America’s tech industry away. JUST LIKE those foreign auto companies did it here in the US!!! Georgia, Alabama, Kentucky, Texas, all states that bribed, cajoled and CUT TAXES to get them thar foreigners to INVEST MEGA BILLIONS in our States and our Country. That’s how it’s done! NOT MORE TAXES TO SCARE THEM AWAY!!!

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Can you explain this? Because I thought unions were bad…

In the ’40s, ’50s, & ’60s, when the top marginal tax rate was between 70% and 94%, workers’ real wages increased massively. But in the ’80s, ’90s, and ’00s, when the top marginal rate was between 28% and 50%, workers’ real wages have been stagnant.

Can you explain this? ‘Cause I thought the more money the rich had, the higher wages they could pay us. That’s the trickle-down theory anyways…

#1. Corporations are not human beings, they do not have the right of free speech.

#2. 15 dollars an hour wage vs. 15 cents an hour wage, health insurance vs. no health insurance, environmental and health safety standards vs. no standards. Maybe that’s why it’s unfair competition, even in the nail making business.

#3. Those workers are only ‘WELL PAID’ because of the threat of unionization, without that their wages would be half and would be lucky to have insurance or benefits at all.

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Your foreign made steel nail is a great example of how big businesses typically find ways to lower costs. But I don’t see the “un-fair competition” connection? I doubt that there is that much direct labor costs in machine made nails? It could be that foreign Government’s are sponsoring steel dumping below their costs? But I’m more likely to believe that our high Government tax rates on corporate enterprises, like in Michigan’s 20%, is probably a bigger deterrent to new startup competition. As I stated much earlier, I own a small business and I compete against several BIG companies that have massive capital resources, 100 to 1000 time my worth. Half the time I can get the jobs by virtue of being a tighter run small company, AND I do pay Union wages. About a quarter of the time I get beaten out because their direct material manufacturers and I simply can’t provide the materials at their wholesale pricing. But the last 25% of the time I lose the work because a few of those Big Businesses have a special Cartel relation with the Government (inside dealings) and they get handed the work at MORE money, Now that might qualify as UN-FAIR!
I would recommend that your girlfriend’s Uncle take his money and buy some Home Depot or WalMart stock, thus using his capital to maximum effect.

I agree that there could be more competition if and only if, we can reduce our costs here in America! I’d start with cutting Taxes on businesses AND Employees WITHHOLDING taxes. But how do the likes of Honda, Mazda, Mercedes, Toyota, etc. building multi-billion dollar plants here in America and still make a profit using WELL PAID America labor! Granted they are not UNION jobs, so does that mean the Dems should get busy with that Obama Card Check Legislation agenda (Big Government helping Big Labor) to unionize those pesky foreign manufacturers in America and we can kill those good jobs too, can you say Detroit take 2!

Maybe not Tariffs but Card Check works the same way when Government gets involved with Big Labor OR Big Business we ALL SUFFER because it eliminates competition and creates island monopolies AND we the Tax payers pick-up the tab.

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So we can agree companies, such as WalMart, will raise prices if we go back to America’s protectionist ways. I’m glad we’re past the whole price controls thing, ’cause that has nothing to do with what I believe would happen. So that brings us to your question, a flood of competition from where? Well from all the small companies in America that are trying to compete, but can’t effectively because the WalMarts of the world are undermining prices. There are plenty of them, my girlfriends uncle owns a business that makes nails here in America and has always sold them to Home Depot. Well now Home Depot decided to go with the cheaper foreign made nails, he has no chance to compete now, its unfair competition, he made the decision to close the business rather than export jobs to China. So trust me, it will restore fair competition. Is there anything wrong with that logic?

So if we can agree there’d be more competition, can we agree that will drive back down costs? Now I know they wont go to as low as WalMart sells stuff, but it wont matter because people will actually have good paying jobs again.

I don’t think you have to worry about this ’cause Obama announced today that tariffs aren’t the answer.

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The definition of Fascism is business owning the government, rather than the people. >>> IT IS NOT?? Just ask Mussolini.

>> “1 often capitalized : a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a CENTRALIZED AUTOCRATIC GOVERNMENT HEADED BY A DICTATORIAL LEADER, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition” http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fascism
Where did you get your definition of Fascism???

Yes I agree that Mussolini was a real fan of Fascism, but since he’s unavailable for comment, we should ask his modern incarnate President Obama instead. The Prez has confiscated Bond Holders ownership and Nationalized GM and Chrysler AND gave half to the UAW unions, who didn’t even own common shares! The real insult was that a large part of those Bonds were property of the State of Indiana PERA retirement fund got screwed in the deal! So much for REAL WORLD Fascism!

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i addressed this like 5 times already, appearantly you didnt read it.

1st. tax them

2nd. walmart raises prices

3rd. a flood of competition from ethical companies can enter the marketplace

4th. the competition drives back down costs

5th. now the only competitors are ones that respect workers’ rights and our environment.

6th. more americans have jobs, they are buying higher quality and safer products(now there wont be tax increases to clean up corporations destruction of our environment, ‘nor will there be tax increases to pay for the medical costs because of the fascist corporations faulty product)

The definition of Fascism is business owning the government, rather than the people. Just ask Mussolini.

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NO, I do not believe in “slave labor”, where did you get that from??? I’m all for worker’s RIGHTS, I’m against Government’s oppression of those worker rights, NOT SLAVERY?

This forum is about Economic Theory not WORKER OF THE WORLD UNIT debates.

So your solution is TAX (Tariff) Walmart for using Chinese labor as punishment! Let’s work through that solution. [Walmart is ALL US businesses Mfg in China]
1st: We target Walmart and charge them a 50% tax on all they import because they use Dirty Chinese Slave Labor.
2nd: Walmart is very upset, but it simply raises its product prices by adding that tax to their total product line and YOU and I have to pay more… remember my Fruit of the Loom T-shirt example.
3rd: The government sees that Walmart is passing those cost through to the consumer, well that’s Unacceptable, so now we need Price Controls!
4th: PRICE CONTROLS are installed, guess what, the shelves go empty, because NO business will deliver product when Governments imposes artificial losses!
5th: Government DEMANDS that Walmart continues to deliver CHEAP products at a LOSS… Walmart says “expletive” you and gets ready to LEAVE the US market.
6th: Government says no you can’t we are taking over and we will Nationalize your business, ala Barbara Boxer statement to the Oil Industry.

But that would never happen here, wait a minute, it already has, GM and Chrysler

Businesses are not Fascist, Government’s are! Big Government often forms CARTELS with Big Businesses and manipulates the market and run things into the ground like the Sub-Prime Freddie and Fanny fiasco and then demonizes capitalism and free markets as the culprit. That’s why Government Stimulus programs have NEVER worked and NEVER will work.
AGAIN, Government is the problem, not the solution.

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The solution to China killing the environment and their people isn’t a total embargo, it’s simple, discourage American companies from opening factories there. It’s called tariffs. The shelves wont be empty, it will open up competition to companies that respect human rights and respect our planet. It’s not fair that companies have an advantage because they’re destructive and irresponsible. I love business, I want more competition, but it’s fascism when business is put ahead of Liberty, Freedom, and our Human Rights.

So when I said go ahead and raise prices that high, it’s because it’ll open up competition to non-fascist companies, not to protect high union wages. Then instead of the monopolies we basically we have now, the true competition will drive back down costs. And at the same time we’re buying products in which the money goes to an American workers wage that helps him provide for himself and his family. I’d much rather do that than buy a product that goes to the 10 cent wage in China and the huge profit for the fascist.

If you honestly think American workers can compete with Chinese workers youre insane. You want us to work for 10 cents an hour in a dirty factory that compromises our own health? This is why I truly believe Libertarian policies would turn us into a third-world country. This has nothing to do with Unions, this has to do with fair competition.

So once again it wasn’t taxes and unions that brought us ‘do you want fries with that jobs. It was a group of fascists that couldn’t stand the fact the middle class was growing and getting stronger, and the gap between the middle class and the rich was shrinking at a rapid rate. It’s as simple as this, if we didn’t get rid of tariffs, those jobs would not have been shipped overseas, that’s a fact. So don’t say taxes and the unions did it. It was the lack of protection from fascists that did it.

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ALL Union pension plans from teachers, firefighters, policemen and oh yes UAW etc. are in deep DEFICITS, BILLIONS IN THE RED, UNION promises that can’t be kept! But that’s OK; just make the Private Business sector pay with more TAXES, you know “Spread the Wealth”, Oh wait a minute, can’t do that it will crush the Recovery, I guess Mr. Gietner simply needs to print some more money!!!

QUESTION: What’s the BIGGEST difference between Detroit auto manufacturers and all those successful FOREIGN auto plants in the southern US? ANSWER: UNIONS!

I’ve toured the San Antonio TX Toyota Tundra plant and there is (your words) “exportation of slavery”. Those Texans TOLD ME they are very happy with their good paying jobs, benefits and FULLY funded retirement plans!

AGAIN Jack, TAXES and UNION MONOPOLY LABOR replaced those (your words again) “millions of good paying jobs” Yes SuperSize me please! lol

I like your comparison of Union versus Non-Union. Are these the same Unions that are running the MASSIVE unfunded deficits? Question Asked and Answered, One Word >>> UNSUSTAINABLE <<< Sorry Jack but the American worker is simply going to have to adjust his expectations.

I agree that Mother Earth has and is suffering from the Industrial onslaughts, and only trade agreements offer possible solutions to enforce Property Rights, but China hasn’t even acknowledge Human Rights much less Property Rights, what are the chances that the US can FORCE China into cleaning up its environmental act? Only a total Embargo of ALL THINGS made in China might work but that would result in empty retail shelves everywhere! Walmart used to boast of selling only “American made” well, it’s China made now and mostly because the unions pushed the US Garment workers out of jobs by forcing DEMANDS ever higher above what a Free Market would support. So your solution is to keep raising the union DEMANDS, raise Taxes and raise Tariffs? You must really hate the American worker!

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