88 responses to “Rand Paul’s “Give Me Liberty!” Money Bomb”

  1. kilo

    I hope Rand Paul wins the Kentucky election in a land slide. I live in Texas and am so glad Ron Paul is here. I am sure big government and wall street are afraid of them both. They will become more afraid when Ron and Rand get more supporters all over America. It is already happening. There are not many politicians who are as brave as these men and speak out about the true motives of the powerful people in this country. Ron taking on the Federal Reserve is like David and Goliath, but we all know who won that battle! Thank you Ron and Rand for your service to America. I for one will spread the word about you both.

    »crosslinked«

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  2. Lost Knowledge

    The Anti-federalists Were Right
    http://mises.org/daily/2335

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    1. Fred the Protectionist

      Whatever the hell a “Federalist” is.

      *Shrugs* These days it could mean anything, with our labels all screwed up and backwards.

      Black is white, sweet is bitter, good is bad.

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      1. longshotlouie

        lmao

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  3. SS

    F.A. Hayek’s contribution to freedom in the 20th century is incalculable. Yet so is that of his one-time teacher, Ludwig von Mises. The latter, in 1920, predicted the eventual collapse of the Soviet Union because of its lack of private property and a market to determine prices. This was detailed in his book of that year, “Socialism.”

    In his later, extensive writings on government interventionism, Mises explained the inherent failings in what is today called the Third Way — a deadly idea that has infected the politics and economies of Asia, Europe and the United States.

    The Third Way, or middle way, is said to combine the best elements of capitalism and socialism: a new synthesis for the Information age. Some people call it “economic opportunity and social justice.” British Prime Minister Tony Blair, in an interview for Chinese TV, described the Third Way as “combining a dynamic market economy with a strong sense of social provision and national unity and purpose.” He also calls it “social democracy renewed,” a term used by many political leaders throughout the European Union.

    In the United States, the Democratic Leadership Council calls it “tolerant traditionalism.” President Bush uses the term “compassionate conservatism.” In Taiwan, President Chen calls it a New Middle Way, with partnerships between government and business. Mises termed it interventionism: “a method for the transformation of capitalism into socialism by a series of successive steps.” Socialism, in this case, does not mean the Marxist kind, where the state nationalizes everything. It means government intervention (and distortion) in the market and society through taxation and regulation.

    The problem with this, as Mises explained, is that capitalism and socialism are irreconcilable. One relies on free, voluntary exchange; the other relies on bureaucratic control. You cannot combine the two. If you try, all you get is incremental socialism. The economy and people’s lives are manipulated, one way or the other, by the government, which leads to bad decisions, bad investments, failures, higher costs — all the problems in planned or semi-planned economies.

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  4. joe joe

    have you ever stopped to think what are the root causes of US jobs leaving for china?

    the federal reserve could easily manipulate the US dollar so that we would be competitive with china but it doesnt. the reason that it doesnt is because it is a dumb idea. the chinese may produce more but their money is worthless and they can’t buy anything. their policy of manipulating there currency has in effect made them our slaves by producing products for us at almost no personal gain. they still live by their silly communist idea that whoever produces more is the winner. who wins here? US consumers. however, overpaid fat cat inefficient union labor loses. I am happy to see Jimmy hoffa wannabes and their mafia buddies take a pay cut. free trade hurts gangsters and bloated monopolies.

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    1. Fred the Protectionist

      Wrong [...]. Slave labor benefits nobody but the slave owner (in China’s case it is the Chinese government).

      It was the Northern manufacturing states who suggested they secede long before the Civil War, to isolate themselves from the societal and economic degradation of slavery.

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      1. longshotlouie

        How many slave-holding states were there at the start of the war?

        How many were in the North?

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  5. Fred the Protectionist

    Free Trade, Protectionism, and the Founding Fathers.

    A short narrative on why our founding fathers denounced free trade and made Protectionism a part of the Constitution…

    http://books.google.com/books?id=f5haGbCanfIC&printsec=frontcover&dq=protectionism+founding+fathers&source=bl&ots=RTzYk1g092&sig=qdZQf79L4w4P_CS-_sXTYvdITQg&hl=en&ei=eOuqS5jAFpDcNcnSiNsB&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CBIQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=&f=false

    That’s one bigass link.

    Why do free traders hate the founding fathers? That’s not right.

    I use to be a Libertarian/neocon, then I grew up like all children do.

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    1. longshotlouie

      You may be a neo-con, but you’ve never been a libertarian.

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      1. Fred the Protectionist

        Yes I have, I even voted straight Libertarian ticket once in the 1990′s. The only vote I regret.

        I know exactly how you think: duuuuh duuuuh duuuuuh.

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        1. longshotlouie

          So you voted libertarian without a libertarian thought in your head?

          LPOS

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          1. Fred the Protectionist

            I know exactly how you Libertarians think. And I still have Libertarian’ish beliefs like drug legalization, legal abortion except late term abortion, (economic minarchist such as) I am against both mandatory car insurance and mandatory health insurance, heck i’m even Christian’ish like Ron Paul.

            However I would never ally myself with you fools. Not because Libertarians are incapable of compromise, I am incapable of compromise myself; it is because Libertarians have stupid reasons for being proponents of drug legalization; Libertarians have stupid reasons for being proponents of abortion; Libertarians have stupid reasons to be against mandatory health insurance; none of the rationalizations Libertarians use are rational, constitutional, or logical; all rationalizations/arguments Libertarians use are Utopianist (foolish).

            The argument is just as important as solution. For instance, both Ron Paul and Pat Buchanan oppose NAFTA. Does this mean their solution would be the same? Hell no. Ron Paul thinks that NAFTA doesn’t work because it is “managed trade”. Pat Buchanan thinks NAFTA doesn’t work because it lowers Tariffs. Ron Paul’s solution would be radically different than Pat Buchanan’s solution.

            Another thing, international trade is the most important issue regardless if anyone cares or if the issue is pushed aside by the media; heck we once fought a civil war over Tariffs once so obviously it must be an important issue. Libertarians think the FED is the most important issue, it is not even in the top 10. These low tariffs over the last few decades is what destroyed the economy, including the service industries.

            I am a Pat Buchanan supporter, or maybe the Constitution Party supporter. Libertarianism is a distraction, Libertarianism is a major obstacle to forming a real 3rd party opposition to the neocon-socialist stranglehold on our government. As long as Libertarianism remains, sucking away independent voters by deception and propaganda, a real 3rd party will never be able to compete.

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          2. longshotlouie

            Let us know how things turn out on your manipulation by taxation island.
            You have no more chance of making that work than Bernanke has had manipulating his way. The eventual result is failure. No man or woman, nor group, is smart enough to completely control the marketplace. Why do you get so worked up about a symptom and discount the cause?

            Without libertarianism there is little liberty, and little real prosperity.

            The Fed is the antithesis of liberty and prosperity

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          3. Fred the Protectionist

            Libertarians are the destructors of liberty.

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    2. Dfens

      Reviewing a protected economic system and a Free Trade system, it is clear to see the positive economic reciprocity and the benefits of protectionism. The business cycle of a protected economic system starts with: (1) the purchase of raw materials, which returns a proportion of the working capital back to the national economy. (2) Provides jobs at equitable wages, which returns most of the working capital back to the national economy. (3) Pays some of the worker’s Social Security benefits, which returns some of the working capital back to the national economy and provides a safety net for our retirees. (4) Often provides health insurance, which returns some of the working capital back to the national economy and aids the general welfare. (5) abides by EPA standards, which contributes to the overall welfare of the nation. (6) Protects the workers by adhering to the national safety standards, which contributes to the overall welfare of the nation. (7) The final stage is that the corporation gets to reap profits from the economy.

      For every bond the U.S. sells to foreigners, we have to repay the original investment with interest. For every business sold to foreigners, we lose the control of the company and all future profits. For every stock sold to foreigners, we lose the control and the dividends. Free trade is sucking the wealth from our country and we are leaving our children with the debt and no means of repaying it. Free trade is hollowing out the United States and we are collapsing from within. – Free Trade, Protectionism, and the Founding Fathers

      The book then goes on to quote a prophetic statement made by Abraham Lincoln:

      “I see in the near future a crisis approaching that unnerves me and causes me to tremble for the safety of my country. Corporations have been enthroned, an era of corruption in high places will follow, and the money-power of the country will endeavor to prolong its reign by working upon the prejudices of the people until the wealth is aggregated in a few hands and the Republic is destroyed”

      It’s ironic, the Ron Paul worshipers think they’re conservatives, when all they really are is neocons ignorant of history. They think they’re sticking it to the multi-national corporations, when all they are really doing is their bidding. They are traitors to the United States of America and they beat their chests like they’re patriots. What a sad bunch of little people you really are.

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    3. gander

      “Commerce with all nations, alliance with none, should be our motto”
      -Thomas Jefferson

      does that sound like he was against free trade?

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      1. Fred the Protectionist

        Ironic, since the only federal tax at the time was the Tariff, and Jefferson started the first international war because pirates hindered his precious trade.

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        1. gander

          i don’t see any irony. the tariff was used as a way to raise funds because an income tax was not allowed by the constitution. and as for the pirates, he went to war because they were kidnapping american citizens and demanding huge ransoms that were draining the treasury. you are wrong on both counts. you need to start reading real history books, not silly propaganda that you find on the internet.

          and by the way, a neocon libertarian is a contradiction in terms. its like saying you were a war mongering pacifist.

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          1. Fred the Protectionist

            Wrong. Libertarianism=Neoconnory

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    4. Dfens

      Slave owners don’t want tariffs, that’s why the South was against them. The slaves kept their labor costs low. The lack of industry in the South lead to their eventual demise because even though they had an excellent army, they had no way to supply that army with weapons. The North rode their tariff induced industrial might to a win in the Civil War just as the US used that same tariff protected industrial might to win two world wars. Ronny and Randy don’t like tariffs because they want to return us to the days of weakness and slavery as do their dim witted followers.

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      1. SS

        Rather than taking time to dismantle your strawman argument, let’s start with a single question.

        How much socialism should we incorporate into our trade system?

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        1. Fred the Protectionist

          Are you calling every Founding Father and every Republican up till the 1920′s socialists? They all supported the Tariff to build industry.

          Yes of course you are calling them socialists, you’re a Libertarian loon.

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          1. longshotlouie

            Are you under the illusion that every founding father and every Republican believes what you believe? Now I know why the term ‘Federalist’ was so confusing for you.
            Economic rationalisation by the state, or a planned economy, is a socialistic platform.

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          2. longshotlouie

            Communist Manifesto – steps necessary to destroy a free enterprise system and replace it with a system of omnipotent government power, so as to effect a communist socialist state.

            Step #5
            Centralization of credit in the hands of the state, by means of a national(FED) bank with State capital and an exclusive monopoly.

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          3. Fred the Protectionist

            I’ve seen many’a self-proclaimed Libertarianos suggest that certain Industry A or Industry B get tax breaks so they can expand production in their state. Sounds like you anti-Liberty Libertarians want planned economies just as much as the union-thugs, who you revile, suggesting their industry get a tariff.

            hypocrites.

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      2. Lost Knowledge

        Dfens seems to believe that the only slave states were in the South.

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      3. Fred the Protectionist

        There’s another reason Slavery and Free Trade go hand in hand.

        In many southern states, the slave population was equal to the free population. Slaves make very little money, that means they make lousy customers for what the slavers are producing in their home country. Slaves cannot buy what they produce, this is why Free Trade is absolutely necessary in a slave economy.

        The slavers must export. This makes Libertarians, Ronulism, very stupid. Even the southern slave states understood the concept of repricocity, their goal was to export what they produce, which means they had to have the ability to retaliate on closed markets. The Ronulan/Libertarian fruitcakes even want to abandon any attempts to open foreign markets. They are WORSE then the slavers.

        The Republican Party has abandoned it’s founding principles, abandon the Republican Party.

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        1. longshotlouie

          What does a protectionist need with foreign markets?

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          1. Fred the Protectionist

            I understand Free Traders. You do not understand Protectionists.

            If you understood the mentality of a protectionist you wouldn’t say, “What does a protectionist need with foreign markets”?

            The fault is in you.

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    5. Gander

      if we take the protectionist logic (or lack of) to its conclusion, all countries should stop trading things that they can produce themselves to protect jobs. by the same logic you could say that all individual states would benefit from the same idea. you could also say that every individual city should stop trading with other cities… ultimately, if everyone had to produce everything that they needed no one would be unemployed. it is true Fred, mazeltov. however, the standard of living approaches cave man levels. the USSR was also very isolationist in its trade policy and everyone had a job there as well. fred’s utopia. which society would everyone rather live in?

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      1. Fred the Protectionist

        if we take the Free Trader’s logic (or lack of) to its conclusion, then slavery makes a comeback.

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  6. Dfens

    Ron Paul supports the Communist Chinese in their manipulation of the value of their currency.

    The imbalances in international trade, and in particular trade between China and the United States, have prompted many to demand a realignment of the Chinese yuan and the American dollar. Since we are running a huge trade deficit with China the call now is for a stronger yuan and a weaker dollar. This trade imbalance problem will not be solved so easily.

    If a stronger yuan is implemented, increased exports to China from the US may or may not result. The weaker dollar will lead to higher US prices and crowd out the hoped-for benefits of a realignment of the two currencies.

    One thing certain is that the immediate impact would be higher prices for consumer goods for middle class Americans. In many ways a weaker dollar would act as an import tax just as if it were a tariff. Both are considered protectionist in nature.

    The fact that the Chinese keep their currency artificially weak is a benefit to American consumers and long term is inflationary for the Chinese. – Speeches and Statements by Ron Paul

    So if you’re one of the millions who have lost your job due to outsourcing to Red China, shut-up and enjoy your cheap TV. It’s the least you can do for your country, because your country and Ron Paul in particular, isn’t going to do a damn thing for you.

    The Chinese economy has grown in double digits for the last 20 years while ours has limped along at 3% or far less in this recession we’ve been in. China has been protectionist all along, but Ronny and Randy want us to believe that the very same protectionist policies would bankrupt us. Isn’t that cute?

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    1. longshotlouie

      Are you for government manipulation of trade and currency, or not?
      The only thing that we can know for sure is that you are against Ron Paul. Everything else that you say is contradictory.

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    2. Libertarian777

      Dfens, way to go to quote Ron Paul out of context.

      You quote 1/2 his article and then accuse him of saying something he didn’t.

      Yes, he is pointing out that from a CONSUMER point of view, a weak Chinese currency is a benefit for Americans yet exports inflation to China.

      HE THEN GOES ON TO SAY:
      The fact that the US dollar is the principal reserve currency of the world gives us a benefit that others do not enjoy. It allows us to export paper dollars and import goods manufactured in countries with cheap labor. It also allows us to finance the welfare/warfare state with cheap loans from China and Japan. It’s a good deal for us but according to economic law MUST COME TO AN END, and the end will be messy for the US consumer and for world trade.

      Our current account deficit and huge foreign indebtedness is a reflection of the world monetary system of fiat money. The longer the trade imbalances last, the more difficult the adjustment will be. The market will eventually force these adjustments on us.

      Eventually it will be necessary to consider commodity-based money to solve the trade imbalances that concern so many here in the Congress.”

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      1. Fred the Protectionist

        Stuff coming from cheap foreign labor is cheaper? Really?

        If that were true then a pair of pants does cost $1, a new car costs $500, and a gallon of gas costs 10 cents.

        Guess what, everything coming from cheap foreign labor countries is more expensive, not cheaper, you bastards. So not only have you destroyed manufacturing here, but you inflated the price of everything. You screwed both the consumer and the producer, MEGA FAIL!

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        1. Libertarian777

          Gasoline prices are not comparable due to taxes. European and Canadian taxes result in gasoline prices being 50%+ more than in the US.

          Crude Oil is largely fungible (light sweet brent vs sour Saudi notwithstanding). That is why oil is priced in US $ and consequently cheaper ‘foreign’ labour doesn’t have as much of an impact.

          India is selling a $5000 car (Tata Nano). About the same size as a SMART car (which sells for $16,000). It just happened to burst into flames recently.

          And the difference between the low cost of the Tshirt that is made in Sri Lanka / Pakistan / India, and costs the manufacturer (like Gap etc) $2 and sells to you for $8, is called profit.

          I can guarantee you, that same Tshirt is not selling for $8 in Sri Lanka.

          Again, Fred, you aren’t READING. Did you read Ron Paul’s speech in its entirety?
          HE STATES unequivocaly, that this trade imbalance, while it seems good NOW, is UNSUSTAINABLE and is going to result in serious economic pain.

          I think we can at least both agree that the current situation is untenable, its our solution that we disagree on.

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          1. Fred the Protectionist

            Everything was cheaper before you free traders exported a bunch of American industries.

            Clothes, TV’s, metal, wood, steel, homes, cars, tv’s, everything was cheaper in the 60′s, 70′s, 80′s. Every time our tariffs were lowered, prices went up.

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        2. longshotlouie

          Fled’s comedy stylings are wearing thin.
          Gone from amusing to utterly pathetic.

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  7. Dfens

    Men account for at least 7 of 10 workers who lost jobs, according to the latest Bureau of Labor Statistics data. Blue-collar men have suffered 57% of the job losses. And blue-collar white men, who make up only 11% of the workforce, constitute 36% of those who have lost jobs. In total, nearly half of the recession’s casualties are white men, having held 46% of all jobs lost. – LA Times

    Isn’t “free trade” great? Vote for Ron and Rand Paul, because you’re too stupid to have a job anyway.

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    1. SS

      Where is this free trade? Would not free trade be lack of government intervention?
      And lastly, does not Ron Paul vote against things like CAFTA, NAFTA, etc.?
      Someone said you are thoroughly confused. I concur.

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    2. Dfens

      Here’s your “free trade”. Unilateral style. Remember how it used to be fashionable among some people to demand the US military unilaterally get rid of all our nuclear weapons, and then when the Soviet Union dissolved we found out that those movements were all funded by the Soviets though their spies. Wow, wasn’t that a shocker? Who would have seen that coming?

      “Free trade does not require coordination with another government to benefit citizens here. Just like domestic businesses don’t pay taxes, foreign businesses do not pay tariffs – consumers do, in the form of higher prices. If foreign governments want to hurt their own citizens with protectionist tariffs, let them. But let us set a good example here, and show the world an honest example of true free trade. – Texas Straight Talk by Ron Paul

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      1. SS

        Can anyone other than Dfens connect these unrelated dots?

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      2. Dfens

        Here, connect this dot. This is Ron Paul’s Statement on H. RES. 1370 “Calling on the Government of the People’s Republic of China to immediately end abuses of the human rights of its citizens”.

        Instead of lecturing China, where I have no doubt there are problems as there are everywhere, I would suggest that we turn our attention to the very real threats in a United States where our civil liberties and human rights are being eroded on a steady basis. The Bible cautions against pointing out the speck in a neighbor’s eye while ignoring the log in one’s own. I suggest we contemplate this sound advice before bringing up such ill-conceived resolutions in the future. – Your Hero

        See, the United States is the real enemy. We do far worse things that condem those who don’t agree with our politics to serve as slave labor for our buddy’s chemical plant down the street. We do far worse things than force our children to work in unsafe sweat shops. We are the enemy! The Communist Chinese are our friends they are the one’s who really look out for us. Ron Paul has been right all along, and I just did not see it. Such a travesty. I am so ashamed not to have seen the light sooner.

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        1. SS

          Is the moral to your story that it is China’s fault? Or is it Ron Paul’s fault?
          Or maybe it’s a conspiracy.

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  8. Dfens

    From 2000 to 2009, industrial production declined here for the first time since the 1930s. Gross domestic product also fell, and we actually lost jobs.

    In traded goods alone, we ran up $6.2 trillion in deficits — $3.8 trillion of that in manufactured goods.

    Things that we once made in America — indeed, we made everything — we now buy from abroad with money that we borrow from abroad.

    Over this Lost Decade, 5.8 million manufacturing jobs, one of every three we had in Y2K, disappeared. That unprecedented job loss was partly made up by adding 1.9 million government workers.

    The last decade was the first in history where government employed more workers than manufacturing, a stunning development to those of us who remember an America where nearly one-third of the U.S. labor force was producing almost all of our goods and much of the world’s, as well. – Pat Buchanan

    Who really is for “socialism” you free traitors? You don’t mind protecting government jobs, but won’t lift a finger to protect a job in the American market place. But wait, “Rand Paul proposes that America can engage the world in free trade, develop LUCRATIVE commercial relationships with other nations.” Now obviously these relationships with countries like Communist Red China have been very lucrative for Rand Paul, otherwise how could he afford to run for the US Senate. How is that working out for the rest of us? $6.2 TRILLION in deficits, and we’re raising the first generation of Americans whose lives will be significantly worse than the generation’s before. Yeah, that’s something to be proud of. Vote for Rand Paul, because he’s going to get his, wether you do or not.

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    1. longshotlouie

      Your government-style manipulation of trade brought us to this point.
      Now you want even more of that ‘hair of the dog that bit ya’.
      And to compound your sin, you want to point the finger at an imaginary enemy.
      You blame it on free trade when there has been none. That is the hole in your bucket.

      Own it.

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      1. Dfens

        Revising history now, comrade? Gee, I wonder where you learned that tactic? What do you think it did when Bush gave China “most favored nation” status? Are you so stupid you think that raised tariffs on China? How stupid are you?

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        1. longshotlouie

          You’re still confused.

          You are calling for a different style of government manipulation of trade from that of the so-called ‘free traders’. Both result in the same destination via different routes.

          The only answer is actual free market trade. Always has been.

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        2. Dfens

          You sound just like one of those anti-gun nuts. Unilaterally disarming law abiding citizens has never worked, has never made the law abiding safer, yet when faced with yet another massacre their only response is that we need tougher gun control laws. Just like them you would have us believe that although reducing and in many cases eliminating tariffs has decimated our industry, taken away millions of middle class jobs, and turned our trade surplus into a massive trade debt, your only “Ron and Rand Paul” answer to the situation is unilaterally getting rid of all remaining tariffs and everything will be wonderful. You are all moRons.

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          1. longshotlouie

            Building more imaginary bridges?
            I am a reloader, which has nothing to do with the topic.

            You’ve pointed out the symptoms, but still have trouble with causation.
            Keep studying.

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          2. Libertarian777

            there are a lot of issues at stake but just a few things to point out Dfens.

            1. you can blame ‘free’ trade agreements all you want, but who is forcing all these Americans to buy cheap Chinese crap from Walmart? There is a ‘throwaway’ mentality on any purchases.
            2. China is resisting calls to appreciate their currency. While I disagree with them manipulating their currency as they do (artificially low), if they appreciate it, they take an immediate hit in the value of their US treasury holdings. Additionally, if the administration calls China a ‘currency manipulator’ it risks letting the Chinese stop purchasing US treasuries. I do agree we need to get off the binge of fiat money issued to China to fund our deficits, but giving China the power to control that is something we do NOT need.
            3. Lastly since when has there ever been a free market anywhere? The government mandates almost everything. Have you ever wondered why corn syrup is used as a sweetner and not cane sugar? Florida has the perfect weather for cane sugar, yet it hardly grows any. Why? because government subsidises corn. They even went so far as to subsidise corn ethanol, which uses more energy to create than it provides.

            Now that we have an unconsitutional health insurance mandate, who is going to define what the minimum health insurance coverage that mandate must have? Hundreds of lobbyists will fight to get their required coverage included, until eventually the ‘minimum’ insurance mandate everyone must have is a Cadillac plan. Sure we only get to pay $150pm or something for it, and the balance? well we’ll just get China to fund it by buying our Treasury bills.

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          3. Dfens

            No one is forcing you to pay tariffs on Communist Chinese goods produced by slave labor. It’s your choice. If you want to pay for goods produced by Communist Chinese slave labor or children, then you should pay a sin tax which is a tariff. If you chose to support your country and the skilled craftsmen who live and work here then you don’t have to pay that tax. Your choice. I bet you don’t get that same deal from the IRS on your income tax or from the Communist Chinese when they take over this country.

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          4. SS

            Sounds like more social engineering, via the tax system, to me.

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          5. Libertarian777

            well, if China appreciated their currency, the cost of their goods would go up and the consequent demand would go down.

            But introducing tariffs as you suggest risks a trade war with China.

            China could start introducing tariffs on US made steel, US made aircraft and US made cars (yes, the Chinese actually buy American made vehicles).

            So we will import less Chinese made trinkets no doubt, but then we will end up exporting less to China as well. Is that what you want?

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          6. Dfens

            Oh no! Not a trade war with China! What would we ever do? Who would produce our baubles and beads? Who would make our cheap TV’s? How could our nation exist without racking up our annual $300 BILLION debt to China?

            We might have to start producing our own microprocessors, integrated circuits, and robots. We might have to produce our own precision machined parts for our cars and aircraft and tanks. Our men might work in factories once again and be able to proudly tell their sons they do a job even more important than sweeping the floor and doing the dishes. Oh my, the sky would really fall then.

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          7. SS

            How about we just rebuild our manufacturing base but forego the initiation of a trade war?

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          8. Fred the Protectionist

            God forbid a trade war with China; the US would become prosperous, the middle class strengthen, the dollar would become strong making imports cheaper, there would be no threat of hyperinflation, the socialist party would weaken, and we wouldn’t have to worry about a strong aggressive Chinese ‘industrialized’ military.

            Oh no the horror.

            And what kind of commie would ever suggest retaliation against trade barriers? Every founding father, and every Republican up till the 1920′s.

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    2. Libertarian777

      typical short sightedness of Dfens. Thinks only of one side of the equation.

      Ok, the Chinese hold $889 BILLION of US debt currently. (http://www.ustreas.gov/tic/mfh.txt)

      We enter a trade war with China, put 50% tariffs on all their goods we import.
      China does the same (50% tariffs on Boeings, so they only buy Airbus going forward), and stops buying US Treasuries.

      Demand for US treasuries drops.
      US government still needs to issue $2 TRILLION in Treasuries this year to fund the deficit. Now remember, this $2 trillion is NEW debt. It excludes the existing amounts of current national debt that roll over and have to be re-financed.

      But who oh who’s going to buy it, if China refuses to (I guess Japan will buy some, hopefully Saudi Arabia buys some). So interest rates go up (to entice more people to buy treasuries). Interest rates go up on everything as a result, including all bank loans (I hope I don’t have to explain why this happens).

      Now companies have to take out loans at higher interest rates, how are they going to fund their capital expansion?

      In fact if China REALLY wanted to jack up our interest rates, they could just put their entire $889 billion holding of US treasuries on the market today. They’d make huge losses on their holdings, but they would absolutely destroy our economy.

      Again, I’m not defending China’s practices at all (I really do believe they need to free float their currency), but they have us economically leveraged over a cliff. P*ssing them off is not going to help our situation.

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      1. Dfens

        Here’s a thought, maybe if the Chinese weren’t buying our debt we’d have to live within our means. Oh wouldn’t that be horrible? You neocons would hate that, wouldn’t you?

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        1. Libertarian777

          that would be awesome if the we lived within our means. I know I do. The only debt I have is my car and I can pay that off today if I so chose (I’ve NEVER carried a balance on my credit card. EVER).

          But stop speaking on both sides of the issues. Take one stand.

          You can’t say “live within our means don’t issue treasuries” and then sit on the other side and say we should have 72 weeks of unemployment benefits, unfunded social security, medicare, medicaid and health insurance for all.

          Oh, I forget though, you’re all for the federal reserve who can just print up magic paper money in unlimited quanities, so we don’t need to issue treasuries to China, we can just print fiat money to pay for these unfunded liabilities.

          And since you have such a short memory, Ron Paul has been speaking out against excessive government spending since he’s been a congressman.

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      2. Fred the Protectionist

        Oh look the Free Trader Libertarian who put the US into a bad position in the first place, is now acting as a Chinese agent and threatening the United States. That’s why you types are called “Free Traitors”.

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  9. learn2freemarket

    Dfens, you’re clueless.

    If I produce a quality, expensive product, and the Chinese (or whoever) beat me because they mass produce a cheap one, then the market (the American people) decided it preferred affordable over quality on that product.

    The market wins, because it gets what it wants. You prefer the government stepped in and made laws so my own products would sell, forcing Americans to pay more for something they don’t want. I would win, while America loses.

    And when America is forced to buy what I make instead of fair competition from foreign markets, who’s to say my product is actually better?

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    1. Fred the Protectionist

      Chinese products are not cheaper and they are sub-standard. Why do you hate America?

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      1. longshotlouie

        Why do you prefer socialism to capitalism?

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        1. Fred the Protectionist

          If you love Communist China so much, and hate America so much, why don’t you just move there.

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          1. longshotlouie

            That was an answer?

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          2. Fred the Protectionist

            More Libertarian doublethink.

            You hate America and love Communist China; then suggest i’m a socialist and it’s bad.

            Double….think.

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          3. longshotlouie

            Still not an answer. Have you been drinking this morning?

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          4. Fred the Protectionist

            Why do you hate American products?

            Why do you hate American labor?

            Why do you hate American industry?

            Why do you hate American citizens?

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          5. longshotlouie

            I am American labor, and a citizen.
            I buy American products when available.
            Your question is not applicable to me.

            Now, why do you prefer a socialist system over a free market capitalist approach?

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          6. Anonymous

            longshotlouie, don’t argue with an idiot, they’ll only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience!

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          7. Fred the Protectionist

            “I am American labor, and a citizen.”

            You act like on behalf of the Communist Chinese government. You are either a traitor, an [...], or a foreign propagandist.

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    2. Commonsense

      If the people that were producing your product here in America don’t have a job, it doesn’t matter how cheap the defective crap coming out of China is sold. We can’t buy it with no money. The flaw with your thinking is that you are concerned with the global market. We live in the American market genius. If you work for the government that doesn’t matter. If you work anywhere else it DOES.

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  10. Ken

    I see the attack dogs are already here. (ref Dfens above)

    Wouldn’t it be a great victory for American patriotism if we could replace the old establishment dynasty with the Paul clan.

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    1. Dfens

      If it is an “attack” to cite someone’s actual position on an issue like trade then, yeah, aren’t I vicious? Notice how Rand’s website doesn’t have a topic under the “Issues” heading called “trade”. He hides his stance on “free trade” under “sovereignty”. Funny how you didn’t have Rand or Ron’s back on this one. I’d have thought you’d be all for their selling out small businesses here in the US. After all, isn’t that why you worship them? You hate America, they hate America. It’s one big cluster of treachery.

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      1. longshotlouie

        When will you start citing the actual positions, with evidence?

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      2. Fred the Protectionist

        Trade and Immigration are 2 issues politicians avoid like the plague. All politicians from every ideological stripe.

        They know they have zero popular support.

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  11. Dfens

    Rand Paul proposes that America can engage the world in free trade, develop lucrative commercial relationships with other nations, and defend its national interests without funding or joining international organizations. The US Government must answer only to the Constitution and the citizens protected by it. – Rand Paul 2010

    Rand Paul’s version of “limited government”, like his father’s, is defined such that if you own a small business and some Communist Chinese politburo decides to put you out of business by dumping cheap inferior goods on the US market you can count on the fact he won’t lift a finger to help you. Another traitor. Vote for him if you have the stomach for it.

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    1. A 19th Generation American

      “is defined such that if you own a small business and some Communist Chinese politburo decides to put you out of business by dumping cheap inferior goods on the US market you can count on the fact he won’t lift a finger to help you. Another traitor.”Dfens
      March 23, 2010 at 8:11 am

      Here is a concept for you DFens…. STOP BUYING CHINESE CRAP!

      If people stop buying this cheap crap forced on us by the “Home” stores and the “Wally-Worlds” from foreign countries… perhaps we can start manufacturing in the US again and bring a few jobs back too boot. Rock on Ron!!!

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      1. Fred the Protectionist

        The free traitors hold the US middle class hostage, and their only comeback is “you can always boycott Chinese goods”, as if we were a bunch of negros fighting for civil rights.

        Screw…you traitors.

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        1. longshotlouie

          Stiil confusing free trade with government manipulated trade?

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          1. Fred the Protectionist

            Your Confederate-slave version of Free Trade is worse than NAFTA. You would lower US tariffs to zero and let foreign nations raise their tariffs against the US, never retaliating.

            Why do you hate America?

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          2. longshotlouie

            You forgot to tell us why you prefer socialism.

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          3. Fred the Protectionist

            You free traders empower the socialists by costing millions upon millions upon millions of voters their jobs. Do you think they will vote for YOU after you cost them their jobs, their careers, their livelihoods?

            Buy a clue, unless you’re too cheap. (clue: you’re too cheap)

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  12. Bottomline

    Let’s get rid of Jim Bunning Mr. Bigshot!

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    1. Commonsense

      To start. Jim bunning is not running for re-election. Get a clue. Second he is the only Senator Kentucky has had in my lifetime that stood up agains government spending of money they don’t have. That is a good thing if you were wondering.

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      1. Bottomline

        I am glad that he stood up against the bailouts and did not elect Bernanke! Because Government can’t run America! It is us the people that run this country of ours. I am confident that Rand Paul will be a new shinning star for Liberty and Freedom against Big Central Government that is obstructing our lives.

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