Ron Paul to Sunshine Patriots: Stop Your Demagogy About The NYC Mosque!




Congressman Ron Paul today released the following statement on the controversy concerning the construction of an Islamic Center and Mosque in New York City:

Is the controversy over building a mosque near ground zero a grand distraction or a grand opportunity? Or is it, once again, grandiose demagoguery?

It has been said, “Nero fiddled while Rome burned.” Are we not overly preoccupied with this controversy, now being used in various ways by grandstanding politicians? It looks to me like the politicians are “fiddling while the economy burns.”

The debate should have provided the conservative defenders of property rights with a perfect example of how the right to own property also protects the 1st Amendment rights of assembly and religion by supporting the building of the mosque.

Instead, we hear lip service given to the property rights position while demanding that the need to be “sensitive” requires an all-out assault on the building of a mosque, several blocks from “ground zero.”

Just think of what might (not) have happened if the whole issue had been ignored and the national debate stuck with war, peace, and prosperity. There certainly would have been a lot less emotionalism on both sides. The fact that so much attention has been given the mosque debate, raises the question of just why and driven by whom?

In my opinion it has come from the neo-conservatives who demand continual war in the Middle East and Central Asia and are compelled to constantly justify it.

They never miss a chance to use hatred toward Muslims to rally support for the ill conceived preventative wars. A select quote from soldiers in Afghanistan and Iraq expressing concern over the mosque is pure propaganda and an affront to their bravery and sacrifice.

The claim is that we are in the Middle East to protect our liberties is misleading. To continue this charade, millions of Muslims are indicted and we are obligated to rescue them from their religious and political leaders. And, we’re supposed to believe that abusing our liberties here at home and pursuing unconstitutional wars overseas will solve our problems.

The nineteen suicide bombers didn’t come from Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan or Iran. Fifteen came from our ally Saudi Arabia, a country that harbors strong American resentment, yet we invade and occupy Iraq where no al Qaeda existed prior to 9/11.

Many fellow conservatives say they understand the property rights and 1st Amendment issues and don’t want a legal ban on building the mosque. They just want everybody to be “sensitive” and force, through public pressure, cancellation of the mosque construction.

This sentiment seems to confirm that Islam itself is to be made the issue, and radical religious Islamic views were the only reasons for 9/11. If it became known that 9/11 resulted in part from a desire to retaliate against what many Muslims saw as American aggression and occupation, the need to demonize Islam would be difficult if not impossible.

There is no doubt that a small portion of radical, angry Islamists do want to kill us but the question remains, what exactly motivates this hatred?

If Islam is further discredited by making the building of the mosque the issue, then the false justification for our wars in the Middle East will continue to be acceptable.

The justification to ban the mosque is no more rational than banning a soccer field in the same place because all the suicide bombers loved to play soccer.

Conservatives are once again, unfortunately, failing to defend private property rights, a policy we claim to cherish. In addition conservatives missed a chance to challenge the hypocrisy of the left which now claims they defend property rights of Muslims, yet rarely if ever, the property rights of American private businesses.

Defending the controversial use of property should be no more difficult than defending the 1st Amendment principle of defending controversial speech. But many conservatives and liberals do not want to diminish the hatred for Islam–the driving emotion that keeps us in the wars in the Middle East and Central Asia.

It is repeatedly said that 64% of the people, after listening to the political demagogues, don’t want the mosque to be built. What would we do if 75% of the people insist that no more Catholic churches be built in New York City? The point being is that majorities can become oppressors of minority rights as well as individual dictators. Statistics of support is irrelevant when it comes to the purpose of government in a free society—protecting liberty.

The outcry over the building of the mosque, near ground zero, implies that Islam alone was responsible for the 9/11 attacks. According to those who are condemning the building of the mosque, the nineteen suicide terrorists on 9/11 spoke for all Muslims. This is like blaming all Christians for the wars of aggression and occupation because some Christians supported the neo-conservatives’ aggressive wars.

The House Speaker is now treading on a slippery slope by demanding a Congressional investigation to find out just who is funding the mosque—a bold rejection of property rights, 1st Amendment rights, and the Rule of Law—in order to look tough against Islam.

This is all about hate and Islamaphobia.

We now have an epidemic of “sunshine patriots” on both the right and the left who are all for freedom, as long as there’s no controversy and nobody is offended.

Political demagoguery rules when truth and liberty are ignored.

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  1. william ridenour

    I note Dr. Paul has noted we're giving this issue too much attention. I, in some degree, agree. But his gratuitous wading into the issue, like Obama's, has added fuel to the fire. In that regard, from his national platform, he has done what he now tells us not to do. Balderdash!
    I guess we should just fall silent and let the political elites comment?
    I thought Dr. Paul was a man of the people--I supported him--he had my enthusiastic support on economics and even foreign policy. Now, I don't know.
    He gave me hope. Now, I don't know.
    Defending our land from Muslim hegemony in no way supports further wars.
    I can walk and chew gum at the same time:
    Just watch me:
    No Mosque at ground Zero: No more Imperial wars of conquest for the Washington Oligarchy!
    I won't be fooled by either of the hegemoniacs--I hope you're not either!

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  2. Cerebellum

    The point was not to suggest that all believersof any faith are evil. But that is what those against the NYC Mosque ARE saying about all Muslims. They believe the mosque is a way for Muslims to attack our values.

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    • True. But we can't sink to their level.

      Remember, there are religious and non-religious people on BOTH sides.

      Remember: Many Christians, Jews, Atheists, Agnostics are standing with Muslims to defend this mosque.

      We should always keep that in mind. The evil here is not isolated to one ideology. Neither is the good.

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      • "Remember, there are religious and non-religious people on BOTH sides. "

        Yeah. That's unfortunately true. I've seen plenty of my fellow Atheists standing side by side with other wackjobs, denouncing not only this mosque but also calling for the forced assimilation or expulsion of Muslims (Geert Wilders, Sam Harris, Jerry Coyne, Pat Condell, the list goes on).

        Guys, we can't blame this one on the fundies. We've got just as many wackjobs in our house too.

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  3. THERE IS no evidence whatsoever of any attempt to impose Islam on the Jews. As is well known, under Muslim rule the Jews of Spain enjoyed a bloom the like of which the Jews did not enjoy anywhere else until almost our time. Poets like Yehuda Halevy wrote in Arabic, as did the great Maimonides. In Muslim Spain, Jews were ministers, poets, scientists. In Muslim Toledo, Christian, Jewish and Muslim scholars worked together and translated the ancient Greek philosophical and scientific texts. That was, indeed, the Golden Age. How would this have been possible, had the Prophet decreed the "spreading of the faith by the sword"?

    What happened afterwards is even more telling. When the Catholics re-conquered Spain from the Muslims, they instituted a reign of religious terror. The Jews and the Muslims were presented with a cruel choice: to become Christians, to be massacred or to leave. And where did the hundreds of thousand of Jews, who refused to abandon their faith, escape? Almost all of them were received with open arms in the Muslim countries. The Sephardi ("Spanish") Jews settled all over the Muslim world, from Morocco in the west to Iraq in the east, from Bulgaria (then part of the Ottoman Empire) in the north to Sudan in the south. Nowhere were they persecuted. They knew nothing like the tortures of the Inquisition, the flames of the auto-da-fe, the pogroms, the terrible mass-expulsions that took place in almost all Christian countries, up to the Holocaust.

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    • Crista Lancaster

      Let me summarize your points:

      1. Everything Muslim forces and kings did was good, and pluralistic and wonderful.

      2. Everything Christian forces and kings did dripped with liquid malice and was evil and despicable.

      Nothing is that cut and dry.

      Both Eastern and Western powers did horrible things to both their foes and their populace in the name of order and power. No one's hands were clean.
      There was forced conversions and sackings and atrocities to horrible to be named on both sides (Tuchman's "A Distant Mirror: The Calamitous 14th Century", and Hallam's "Chronicles of the Crusades").

      These acts are not limited to the time period, and in fact would haunt us all the way through the 20th century in lands both devoutly religious and definitively secular.

      It is not one belief system that does this: it is a government which understands power that does so.

      A government no different than the ones which rule the people of the United States, the Middle East and the whole of Europe. A government which will foment discord and hatred between citizens to distract them and keep from uniting against it, and if need be, will attempt to forcibly assimilate all under it's ideology.

      Theists....atheists....nonaffiliated....affiliated....liberals....conservatives....libertarians.....anarchists...black....white...asian....all free peoples.

      Don't let them distract you. Your differences make you strong. Stand together. Let us show them the power of the people.

      Dr. Paul, my name is Crista, I am a medical student and I am proud to be at your side, sir.

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    • David A Morse presents some truths and lots of non truths, ridiculous comments about life in Spain during the 700 year Arab Muslim occupation that ended in 1492.

      Yes, Jews did enjoy special privileges, great wealth and influence in Moorish Spain - and they were deeply, deeply resented by the Spanish Christian population, resulting in the Inquisition - which was led by fervent Jewish Conversos.

      Here is an excellent article on this period of history and the end result was that Spain through off the Muslim occupation and began a golden age:

      Spain 1492: Spain Might Have Had Some Good Reasons for Expelling the Jews
      Instauration Magazine November 1992

      Every schoolboy is or should be familiar with the year 1492, the year of the (re)discovery of the New world by Christopher Columbus, a Genoese in the service of the Spanish monarchs, Ferdinand and Isabella. For Spain, 1492 was to be the most important year in its history, as well as one of the most important in world history. it was the year the Spanish nation was consolidated, the year it said adi6s to the middle Ages, the year when the splendorous Spanish State took center stage in the political evolution of the West.in the beginning of the year, on January 2, after a long siege, the army of the Spanish monarchs marched into the city of Granada, thus reconquering the last of the real estate seized by the Arabs and moors seven centuries earlier. Then, on March 31, the Catholic monarchs signed a royal edict that ordered all Jews in Spain to convert to Christianity or ship out. Five months later Columbus sailed out of the Spanish port of Palos hoping to discover a new route to the Indies. His tiny fleet passed boats loaded with Jews sorrowfully complying with Ferdinand and Isabella's expulsion order.

      *

      In this 500th anniversary of Columbus's epochal voyage, much of the celebration has been marred by media inspired attacks on Spain for her "cruelty" and "foolishness" in expelling Jews. No one seemed to care what was done to the Muslims, who were also given the choice of conversion or expulsion a few years later, just as no one these days seems to care much about what was done to non-Jews in WWII German and Soviet concentration camps, where the death toll of Gentiles was probably ten times greater than the number of Jewish fatalities. Actually, any Jew who converted to Christianity was perfectly free to stay in Spain. Those who left could take all their earthly possessions with them, except gold and silver coins and trinkets.

      The current media story line is that the Spanish, in a fit of blind religious fanaticism, cut off their noses to spite their faces by kicking out the clever and enterprising Jewish community. Having heard these tearful tales over and over again, history buffs could be forgiven for thinking that only mass insanity could have led Spaniards to commit such an enormous gaffe. Jews, today's spin doctors insist, were the cultural and economic backbone of Spain, the most educated and verbal segment of the population. Only greed, envy, ignorance and Christian bigotry could possibly explain this act of pure folly. once again, a peaceful, unoffending people were driven out into the cold because of the heartlessness of their wicked neighbors. But that is not the end of the story! As is almost always the case, there was a price to be paid for persecuting the Jews. The price for Spain, according to the Jewish version of history, was its decline and fall, following the loss of so much Jewish brainpower and the economic and cultural benefits which Spain's rivals, Portugal and Holland, received from swarms of Jewish refugees.

      Per usual, when it comes to Jews, the story they tell is, shall we say, at variance with the facts. Fourteen hundred and ninety-two was the year Spanish civilization took off like a rocket. Within a century or two, Cervantes was writing Don Quixote; Velasquez was painting his incomparable portraits; Calder6n was writing his brilliant plays. it al most seemed as if the presence of the Jews had kept Spanish culture under wraps and their forced removal unloosed tremendous bursts of artistic, literary and economic energy. (Might it be possible that the same unshackling of cultural forces would produce similar results if the Jews left the U. S.?) In A History of Medieval Spain, Professor Joseph F. O'Callaghan provides us with perhaps the most scholarly and precise treatment of Spanish history in the time between the Arab conquest and the moors' surrender of Granada. Spain had its origins in the Roman Empire. The Roman provinces in what is now Spain and Portugal furnished the Empire with some of its greatest emperors. with the fall of Rome, Spain was transformed into a kingdom of Visigoths, one of the German tribes which had inherited remnants of the Empire. The Visigothic kings were Christianized and ruled over a population comprised partly of Nordics and largely of mediterraneans, with a heavy sprinkling of Jews. Later, when the Arabs imposed Islam on Spain, the composition of the population was not greatly changed. The overwhelming majority of Arabs and Spaniards belonged to the Mediterranean race, though Nordic racial traits, such as fair complexions and blue eyes (Isabella had them), were discernible in the ruling circles of both peoples. Some Nordic genes had been implanted by the Vandals who swept through Spain before the Visigoths and fought their way as far as Tunis in North Africa. Here, it might also be noted, that the Muslim rulers and caliphs of Spain were not exactly cultural throwbacks. The Alhambra Palace in Granada is the most beautiful and most graceful pleasure dome to be found on any continent. In 675 the Muslims launched their first raid on Spain, which was repulsed by the Visigothic fleet. By 711, the Arabs had conquered North Africa and were ready to invade Western Europe. in only 21 years they penetrated as far north as Tours in France before being defeated and thrown back by the Franks under Charles Martel.

      The reasons for the woefully poor showing of the Visigoths vis-A-vis the Arab invaders had to do with treason in high places. As O'Callaghan remarks, "Certainly the Jews and others who had suffered under Visigothic rule welcomed the invaders as liberators and collaborated with them." As O'Callaghan also points out, perhaps to avoid endangering his academic standing, the Jewish renegadism was justified by the "disorder" of the Visigothic Kingdom. The reconquest of Spain started in the rugged mountains' of Asturias in northern Spain. There a Visigothic knight, Pelayo, refused to bow down to the Muslims and won the first battle in a 700-year-war between Islam and Christianity. The Reconquista, as it is known, was a glorious era in the history of the West. A proud and fierce people would be tried and tested in a thousand battles. The Jews, as is their custom, quickly burrowed into the Arab fabric of Spain. Generally preferring Muslim to Christian overlords, the People of the Book were allowed to practice their religion without interference and became key elements in Muslim society. it need hardly be added that the Christians who had suffered from Jewish moneymen in Visigothic times, came to loathe them more than ever in Muslim Spain.

      By the 11th century the situation in Spain had become fluid, with the Christians slowly nibbling back parts of their lost lands, while constantly under the threat of fierce Muslim counterattacks. It is not surprising that the eternal "middlemen" should rise to the surface in these troubled times. In both the Muslim and Christian parts of Spain, Jews engaged in all their age-old occupational specialties: usury, the slave trade, prostitution, tax "farming" (contracts to collect taxes for the kings and nobles), the law, medicine, administration and any other type of employment that required little or no physical labor. Worst of all from the point of view of the pious Christian population, they were able to infiltrate the church in large numbers. it was this last activity that led to their downfall. As Muslim power waned, Jews relied more and more on the expanding Christian kingdoms of Spain to provide them with their customary perks. Employed by Spanish monarchs in the most sensitive matters of state, especially in finance, Jews never had it so good since the good old days of Solomon. The Chosen, however, could not enter the church without converting. It was not too long before true Christians realized that the Christianity of most "New Christians" was only skin deep. That converted Jews mocked the Christian religion, celebrated Jewish feast days, and were slowly and subtly introducing Talmudic themes into Christian theology were open secrets. It was no wonder they came to be viewed as a hostile element, busy weakening the Christian nation in the very face of the Muslim enemy.

      High-Octane Religiosity

      In the Middle Ages religion was the fault line of the world. In the same way that the West fought communism in this century, so the Christian West fought the power of Islam in those crucial years. Religion was central to all aspects of life, there being no such thing as a secular state. It is a waste of words to argue that Christian Spain should have made room for Jews and Muslims. Such an accommodation was quite out of the question in the Age of Faith. When Spain expelled the Jews, England, France and other European nations had long since sent them on their way, for approximately the same reasons. The main difference was that the number of Jews and their influence and affluence in Spain were vastly greater than elsewhere in Europe. Ironically the European nations that would later condemn Spain for expelling Jews were the first to voice suspicion of Spain's "purity" because it had been "defiled" by the presence of so many Jews and Muslims. Queen Isabella agreed up to a point. She knew very well that as long as Jews remained in her kingdom they would constitute a political, cultural, philosophical and theological fifth column, not to mention a military liability in the event of a Muslim attempt to retake what they had lost-a scary scenario that was always a possibility.

      Isabella and her husband, Ferdinand, knew in their hearts that only by building one undivided and indivisible Spain could they carry out the tremendous task they had set for themselves. They understood what we seem to have forgotten: You cannot build a nation out of disparate population groups widely separated by culture and religion. Either Jews and Muslims would leave or renounce their faith, or Spain, as a united Christian country, would never endure. Although Jews are not a race, they act like a race and should be treated as one. Anthropologically speaking, they are various mixtures of the Nordic, Alpine and Mediterranean races, with a few distinctive facial traits showing up in many of them. Isabella's relying on religion to define a Jew may have been adequate in her day, but it would be wide of the mark in 1992. Today, in the U.S. about 70% of Jews are non-religious. To use Judaism as a basis for expelling Jews would allow the more intelligent and more devious Jews to remain in our midst.

      The Jews in the Christian Spain aborning were not fools. They were quite aware that popular sentiment was rising against them. Fighting back in any way they could, they bribed powerful and corrupt nobles and worked their way into high positions in the government and church. All in vain. In 1391 massive anti-Jewish pogroms broke out across Spain. In that year, thousands of Jews were killed in Aragon and Castile. in the words of O'Callaghan,

      Hostility towards the Jews had often been manifested in the past, chiefly because of their involvement in money-lending and tax-farming. Complaints about Jewish usury and Jewish tax collectors occur again and again in the records of the Cones [the Spanish parliament or assembly] . . . . Though the Crown usually promised to attend to these complaints, Jews continued to figure prominently in the management of royal finances. The riots of 1391 spelled the beginning of the end for Spanish Jewry, although it would still hold on for another hundred years. The simple truth was that Spain had outgrown Jews, just as it had outgrown Muslims. The Jews, as stated previously, had no part to play in Spain's great years, which, some cynics say, is why Spain had its "great years." The Encyclopaedia Britannica (1963 edition, vol. 2 1, p. 122) adds: "The tide of national enthusiasm, religious fanaticism and indignation at Jewish financial operations reached its high-water mark about three months after the fall of Granada. . . ." Apparently there were early-bird milkens and Boeskys in the ranks of Spanish jewry. Professor Philip W. Powell, in his book, The Tree of Hate (published in 1985) attributes the expulsion of the Jews to a religious conflict between Judaism and Christianity. He is not afraid to meet the issue of anti-Semitism headon: 'The very misleading term of 'anti-Semitism' is so carelessly, or malevolently, tossed about these days that it virtually has no meaning except as a convenient rock to hurl in anger--but, like a rock, it can hurt." He goes on to say: The Jews'] impassioned opinions hamper the writing of fair and unbiased accounts of Spain. Jewish emotion, when aroused by historical memory of [the] Spanish Inquisition and expulsion, exaggerates and distorts, and certainly gives little shrift to the Spanish side of the story .... Jewish writers are aided by a popular opinion, much of it created by themselves, which for centuries has influenced writing upon these themes.

      Powell points out that while it is true that all the 165,000 or so Jews who refused to give up Judaism were expelled in 1492, many more chose to stay and converted. Those who only converted superficially underwent various forms of capital punishment. Jews and other writers of anti-Spanish tendencies, have preferred to focus attention upon these Spanish crimes as a means of demonstrating Spanish cruelty and bigotry. The usual groundwork for this is a morality of later centuries applied to 15th and 16th century historical situations, without that sense of justice so essential to historical interpretations. Or, sometimes more simply, it may come from the well-known Jewish propensity for cultural replenishment out of martyrdom. Professor Powell gets to the nitty-gritty in these words: But the majority of the Spanish people, witnessing [all the] evidence of Jewish-Converso influence . . . . and simply the numbers of Jews daily discernible in the population would, and did, view the situation with antagonism.

      Explaining that this antagonism sometimes led to mob attacks on Jews, Powell dryly adds, "If there was anything uniquely Spanish in all this, it was not intolerance or bigotry, but rather a notable forbearance in comparison to the ways the Jewish problem was handled elsewhere in Europe."

      Inquisition Hype The chief purpose of the Spanish Inquisition, established in 1480, was to ensure that Jews did not create a "state within a state." The Inquisition was a defense of the monarchy and a defense against treason. Many European states applauded its creation as a needed step to rein in Jewish power. Whatever the Inquisition was to become once the Jews had gone, it served its primary purpose in ridding Spain of a hostile force of infiltrators and subversives at a time when the church and nation were in grave danger. The ferocity of the Spanish Inquisition may well stem from the fact that it was in large part staffed by Jewish converts, who amply demonstrated that they had lost none of their innate venom by switching religions. Jewish converts who fell all over themselves to prove their loyalty to their new faith were the driving force behind the grim and fanatical persecution of other Jews. Tomas de Torquemada, the ferocious inquisitor General, who sent so many of his brethren to the stake, is said to have been of Jewish descent. No less an authority than Salvador de madariaga, one of modern Spain's leading intellectuals, holds to the view that the peculiar intolerance of the Spanish Inquisition can be traced, in part, to the presence of Jewish converts in its highest ranks. Madariaga, by the way, made up for this "anti-Semitic" opinion by stating that Columbus was a converso, but not necessarily a Marrano (pig in Spanish), a derogatory term for a convert who practiced Judaism secretly. Several Jewish scholars, including the non-scholars of Time magazine, have accused King Ferdinand of being "part Jewish," though they never satisfactorily explain where the Jewish genes came from. To sum up, Spain's expulsion of the Jews was logical, rational and, for the times, not overly cruel-far less cruel than what modern Jews have done and continue to do to the Palestinians. The Spanish have no need to apologize for their actions in freeing their nation from a harmful internal enemy. The Jews resented their expulsion, as they have resented other forced exoduses in their history. The truth is, contemporary Jews should not blame Spain for their ancestors' misfortunes five centuries ago. They need only to look in the mirror.

      *

      N.B.F. and W.R.

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      • And thank you for that anti-Semitic diatribe. So the Jews deserved what they got, eh? Next you'll tell us America fought on the wrong side in World War II!

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  4. In 1099, the Crusaders conquered Jerusalem and massacred its Muslim and Jewish inhabitants indiscriminately, in the name of the gentle Jesus. At that time, 400 years into the occupation of Palestine by the Muslims, Christians were still the majority in the country. Throughout this long period, no effort was made to impose Islam on them. Only after the expulsion of the Crusaders from the country, did the majority of the inhabitants start to adopt the Arabic language and the Muslim faith - and they were the forefathers of most of today's Palestinians.

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    • The Crusades were partly in the name of land pursuit and utilized non-Christian elements. The Crusades destroyed Constantinople a Christian Empire, and many more Orthodox Christians than it did Muslims or Jews. Like the fine lady Doctore said, it wasn't that cut and dry.

      How about some of you folks stop reading your Western based literature and your minds a bit. It's not enough to just say: "I'm rational, a free thinker, open minded, tolerant."

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  5. This is all about 1st Amendment Rights! Freedom of Religion and for some Freedom from Religion! So let them build the Mosque!

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    • The buzz… Conserving many cultures, liberty, and justice while opposing empire building and tyranny from monopolies is a big job. Democrats and Republicans had better decide soon to save America. Will America stay surrendered to the few families who now own her… endless wars, endless conflicts, propaganda, entertainment and corruption is all they produce… this is all they know. I support a Free Web Press, and I fight for a free America. Is Ron Paul the real leader in America ? More web coverage on Ron Paul than any other congressman. http://www.freewebpress.com – Ron Paul is featured on the front page.

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  6. Cyrus the Great, a Muslim King, figures in the Hebrew Bible (Old Testament) as the patron and deliverer of the Jews.

    He is mentioned twenty-three times by name and alluded to several times more. From these statements it appears that Cyrus the Great, king of Persia, was the monarch under whom the captivity of the Jews ended, for in the first year of his reign he was prompted by God to make a decree that the temple in Jerusalem should be rebuilt and that such Jews as cared to might return to their land for this purpose.

    Moreover, he showed his interest in the project by sending back with them the sacred vessels which had been taken from the temple and a considerable sum of money with which to buy building materials.

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    • william ridenour

      This is ridiculous.
      Cyrus was an old Testament king of Babylon, who in 638 BC allowed the Jews to return to Jerusalem---over a thousand years before Mohammed was born in the late seventh century AFTER CHRIST and that great nihilism called Islam rose from the Arabian desert to spread itself by means of conquest from Syria to Spain.
      You don't know what you're talking about, moron.

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      • I hear you William. It would help if some of our "religious experts" read books on Christian History written by agnostics.

        Sort of defeats the purpose. But I'd like to continue reading the posts on this forum and beyond and compare the so-called "hatred" against a particular faith. I bet we'd find the results interesting.

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    • @David A Morse is joking of course, no rational person in command of facts (or an internet access) can believe the Cyrus of the old Testament was in any way a Muslim.

      His posting was obviously meant to be humorous.

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  7. Freedom From Religion

    I don't understand why all the hate is focused on Muslims. The evangelical Christians that are already entrenched in the US have perverted and destroyed everything that the Republican party once stood for. Evangelical Christianity is a pyramid scheme of the highest order where money bilked from the uneducated poor and middle class is funneled into campaigns of hate and control. They want to take away our constitutionally protected freedoms and outlaw anything and anyone that doesn't fit in with their narrow biblical view of the world. If you believe in the freedoms guaranteed to you as a citizen of the united states, you should really think twice about who the real enemy is.

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  8. jesse - surely you know "teabaggers" can't spell 😉

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  9. The fact that Americans in the name of Jesus took the land of Native Americans proves my point. We have never been the shining city that many claim. We have done much evil in Jesus name. Read your Bible and then tell me that your faith is really peaceful. All faithful people preach that their faith is THE true faith.

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    • "The fact that Americans in the name of Jesus took the land of Native Americans proves my point."

      Huh? What point? That people will make excuses to justify horrible acts (even when the actual cause of such acts has nothing to do with the ideals or beliefs they profess and are, in fact, a product of greed and hunger for political power)? This just in: the sky is blue and the sun shines.

      Also in the name of Christianity:

      -People struggled to free the Native peoples from slavery.
      -Return their land
      -End violent conflict between them and the colonists
      -and so on....

      Batolome de las Casas, Friar Antonio de Montesinos, Domingo de Mendoza, etc, etc, etc

      "All faithful people preach that their faith is THE true faith."

      Once again...so? Everybody who believes in an ideal or an ideology or a worldview believes athat their idea is THE one true ideal which can save the world and promotes it as such. For example, I'm an Agnostic and a liberal. I believe that my position is the most logical and I will shout it from the roof tops. That does not mean that I will not tolerate someone who does not agree . Same thing with religious folk. Most of them believe that they have the one true faith, will preach it as the one true faith, but will not harm or even bother someone who does not share their belief. In fact, you will find that most (both religious and non-religious) people will be just fine with you being you and at most would just use it as an opportunity to open dialogue with a willing partner.

      People have killed in the name of everything that has been named. One could easily accuse Atheists, Buddhists, Muslims, Christians, Hindus, Jews, Pagans (and so on) of every crime you could name. But as you can see such crimes are not limited to a single group, but are the crimes of humanity as a whole.

      ...and for every Jacobin executioner, every European Slave Trader, every Al-Qaeda operative, there were/are many, many more Atheists, Christians, and Muslims who stand against them.

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  10. to GB On September 13, 2001, WND published a commentary by Anthony C. LoBaido regarding the September 11 attacks on New York City and Washington, D.C., two days earlier. In his column, LoBaido outlined what he regarded as the moral depravity of America in general and New York in particular, asking whether, "God (has) raised up Shiite Islam as a sword against America."[19] Commentators Virginia Postrel of Reason magazine and James Taranto of the Wall Street Journal criticized LoBaido and Joseph Farah for the piece and called for columnists Hugh Hewitt and Bill O'Reilly to sever their ties with WND, prompting Farah to respond with a column of his own explaining that the article did not reflect the viewpoint of WND, and that it, like most other commentary pieces, had not been reviewed before being published

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  11. courageous!

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  12. there are only a handful of bold and honest politicians remaining. Ron you are one and also Joe Biden in the whole of America Politics, not that you two don't have some lapses but you are genuine in your mistakes. God bless your honesty.

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    • Ron Paul and Joe Biden in the same class. Now there's something I wouldn't believe, even if I read it.

      And look at ALL those thumbs up! Yes, this is definitely a Campaign for Liberty!

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  13. The reason people are up in arms about the location is really because of the failure of government. Reason A) the Burlington Coat Factory was condemned after 9/11 because of the damage sustained to the building [landing gear from one of the crashed through the roof of the building] and B) the building was used as a temporary morgue just after. If the NYC, NY State and the US Government had handled this properly, the location would be now a national landmark or have a historical status. Now we are mad that this 'sacred' ground could be used for anything but a historical site.

    I have great respect for Ron Paul and his work. Government at all levels is broken. The ineptness at all levels of government, 9 years after 9/11, should be a glaring reminder to all of us that WE have not done the work that is required of us. The only reason our government is allowed to get away with everything it has and in addition Ground Zero is still not rebuilt or rezoned properly is because Americans have allowed it to happen. Now we are angry. But what have we been doing for the last 9 years? Looking for the government to get it done? They never will.

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  14. What most people don't realize is that a mosque is not just a traditional worship center. They are training facilities, and are also used to store weapons. This was told to me by a Muslim who once trained for Al Qieda, but converted to Christianity and is now on the run. Islam is not a peaceful religion. Read the Kuran! Look at places in Europe. They come in and take over. And they're trying to do it here now. The idea of a Mosque near Ground Zero is an affront to all who lost their lives that frightful day. And it wasn't Saudi Arabia who attacked us - it was Islam, the religion of Muslims. Now how peaceful do they sound to you? Convert or we'll kill you. That's in the Kuran.

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  15. Wow...this is truly the most erudite and lucid response I've heard so far from a major political player. Thank you, sir.

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    Highly rated. What do you think? Thumb up 14 Thumb down 2

  16. Property rights ????

    What about the "property rights" of the native americans/aborigines ????

    The country was founded in lying, murdering and genocide ...

    History has been re-written by the elites till the average american knows nothing about the real history of their country ..... and most don't care ......

    Paul is right about the true motives of the rumours ..... its just business as usual (corporations .... in this case the military-industrial complex ..... trying to justify the continuing expropriation of working peoples' money under the guise of security ..... money that could have stayed in people's pockets or been put to use for constructive purposes) ...

    Out country is in need of radical change and yet all our resources and the tax monies of american workers are being used to support the corrupt status quo ......... (bankers, oligopolies,etc) ....

    Reason and scientific facts have no sway in this country ..... only moneyed interests .....

    Criminals have been in control of the country for decades and the public is more interested in being entertained (read distracted) than they are in freedom and justice ....

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  17. Ron Paul will Be our Next President of the USA! Freedom Will Prevail!
    End The Fed
    End The Drug War
    End US Imperialism
    Legalize Freedom
    Ron Paul 2012!

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  18. I am a christian. I have varying political opinions -- depending upon the subject of disagreement. In some I am conservative, some liberal, some 'libertarian', and some middle of the road.

    I believe that Ron Paul's statement is 'right-on' concerning this subject. I am not a person with PhD's in theology - Christian, Jewish, or Muslim. However, I've studied enough to realize that these three groups of believers ALL BELIEVE IN THE GOD OF ABRAHAM. We have many different cultures, many different governments, many different forms of worship, many different languages, and many different heritages. But we all believe in ONE GOD. Considering how many differences that individuals have from others, it is rational to accept the reality that it is virtually impossible for one single religion to possibly meet the needs of every person in the world. I realize that many muslims are not aware of this, but so are many, many christians (I have met some). I suspect that more of the jewish faith, percentage wise, are aware of this similarity than the rest of us.

    Thank you Mr. Paul!!!!

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    • All semitic religions are a curse.

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      • No more than all oriental religions are a blight on free market enterprise, and no more than all atheist ideologies are the bane of human dignity.

        See? Your sweeping generalization is now revealed for the worthless tripe it is.

        Only by working together and accepting the differences of others can we survive. As Christine shows, the members of different faiths can work as one for both the betterment of the human species and to strengthen their spirituality.

        Can you? Or would you rather share the table with other bigots like Fred Phelps, Osama Bin Laden, Fidel Castro, and the rest?

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  19. Personal attitudes and political motivations do not give anyone the right to deny constitutional rights and inherent freedoms to any idividual or group. I AM a combat veteran and it wounds me deeply to see this charade of sensationalism which spits in the face of everything myself and those like me fought and bled to defend. But we are just as guilty as they, voting strictly out of party loyalty or not voting at all... failing ourselves and future generations by becoming complacent and not DEMANDING accountability from our elected officials, not doing our research. They behave like prima donnas and overgrown children because WE LET THEM.

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  20. Our beloved Constitution won't be worth anything if a certain group out-populates us and takes over.

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    Hotly debated. What do you think? Thumb up 8 Thumb down 34

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