Is the controversy over building a mosque near ground zero a grand distraction or a grand opportunity? Or is it, once again, grandiose demagoguery?
It has been said, “Nero fiddled while Rome burned.” Are we not overly preoccupied with this controversy, now being used in various ways by grandstanding politicians? It looks to me like the politicians are “fiddling while the economy burns.”
The debate should have provided the conservative defenders of property rights with a perfect example of how the right to own property also protects the 1st Amendment rights of assembly and religion by supporting the building of the mosque.
Instead, we hear lip service given to the property rights position while demanding that the need to be “sensitive” requires an all-out assault on the building of a mosque, several blocks from “ground zero.”
Just think of what might (not) have happened if the whole issue had been ignored and the national debate stuck with war, peace, and prosperity. There certainly would have been a lot less emotionalism on both sides. The fact that so much attention has been given the mosque debate, raises the question of just why and driven by whom?
In my opinion it has come from the neo-conservatives who demand continual war in the Middle East and Central Asia and are compelled to constantly justify it.
They never miss a chance to use hatred toward Muslims to rally support for the ill conceived preventative wars. A select quote from soldiers in Afghanistan and Iraq expressing concern over the mosque is pure propaganda and an affront to their bravery and sacrifice.
The claim is that we are in the Middle East to protect our liberties is misleading. To continue this charade, millions of Muslims are indicted and we are obligated to rescue them from their religious and political leaders. And, we’re supposed to believe that abusing our liberties here at home and pursuing unconstitutional wars overseas will solve our problems.
The nineteen suicide bombers didn’t come from Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan or Iran. Fifteen came from our ally Saudi Arabia, a country that harbors strong American resentment, yet we invade and occupy Iraq where no al Qaeda existed prior to 9/11.
Many fellow conservatives say they understand the property rights and 1st Amendment issues and don’t want a legal ban on building the mosque. They just want everybody to be “sensitive” and force, through public pressure, cancellation of the mosque construction.
This sentiment seems to confirm that Islam itself is to be made the issue, and radical religious Islamic views were the only reasons for 9/11. If it became known that 9/11 resulted in part from a desire to retaliate against what many Muslims saw as American aggression and occupation, the need to demonize Islam would be difficult if not impossible.
There is no doubt that a small portion of radical, angry Islamists do want to kill us but the question remains, what exactly motivates this hatred?
If Islam is further discredited by making the building of the mosque the issue, then the false justification for our wars in the Middle East will continue to be acceptable.
The justification to ban the mosque is no more rational than banning a soccer field in the same place because all the suicide bombers loved to play soccer.
Conservatives are once again, unfortunately, failing to defend private property rights, a policy we claim to cherish. In addition conservatives missed a chance to challenge the hypocrisy of the left which now claims they defend property rights of Muslims, yet rarely if ever, the property rights of American private businesses.
Defending the controversial use of property should be no more difficult than defending the 1st Amendment principle of defending controversial speech. But many conservatives and liberals do not want to diminish the hatred for Islam–the driving emotion that keeps us in the wars in the Middle East and Central Asia.
It is repeatedly said that 64% of the people, after listening to the political demagogues, don’t want the mosque to be built. What would we do if 75% of the people insist that no more Catholic churches be built in New York City? The point being is that majorities can become oppressors of minority rights as well as individual dictators. Statistics of support is irrelevant when it comes to the purpose of government in a free society—protecting liberty.
The outcry over the building of the mosque, near ground zero, implies that Islam alone was responsible for the 9/11 attacks. According to those who are condemning the building of the mosque, the nineteen suicide terrorists on 9/11 spoke for all Muslims. This is like blaming all Christians for the wars of aggression and occupation because some Christians supported the neo-conservatives’ aggressive wars.
The House Speaker is now treading on a slippery slope by demanding a Congressional investigation to find out just who is funding the mosque—a bold rejection of property rights, 1st Amendment rights, and the Rule of Law—in order to look tough against Islam.
This is all about hate and Islamaphobia.
We now have an epidemic of “sunshine patriots” on both the right and the left who are all for freedom, as long as there’s no controversy and nobody is offended.
Political demagoguery rules when truth and liberty are ignored.
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First and foremost, Islam is NOT a religion, it is an ideology. It contains politics, economics and religion in one.
Secondly, I do not agree with the US premise that there are moderatet and redical muslims. Only in the US is this theory pushed. In the Arab world, there are muslims and non-muslims. Non-muslims are considered infidels, which means that there are NO innocents. Only muslim men are fully treated as humans, women and non-muslims are less.
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Bobny,
I have a couple thongs to discuss with you. It’s obvious reading your ignorant and I’ll informed rant that you some sort of neo-nazi/hatebreeding influences.
Islam is a religion. Maybe you should look up what the definition of a religion is before you open your face and spout out your worthless opinion. Now that that is cleared up, I would also like to point out that politics and government can be found in most religions.
The thing that bothered me the most was your lumping of Muslims all together and acting as if though there are no liberals or conservatives or ones who are just “Muslim” by family and not by practice or faith.
What is this “US theory” you have formulated? So you took it upon yourself to come up with something to further push your hate breeding tactics. There are a lot of crazy Muslims just like there are a lot of crazy every other religion.
Nice try bro. I’ll be here all weekend to make you and anyone else look stupid. Sorry pal but I’m not going to let some moron spread lies that just end up causing more issues.
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Like many of his followers Ron Paul knows little to nothing about Islam. He also seems oblivious to the fact that Muslims attacked America long before we were in the Middle East. He needs to Google the Barbary Coast Wars. Islam allows lying, rape, and slavery. It also calls for the dominance of non-Muslims. Muslims are on a worldwide movement attempting to subjugate all under a barbaric set of religious laws. It is now time to end all Muslim immigration and Mosque construction.
Hotly debated. What do you think?
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To bad we don’t believe in censorship of idiots.
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Showing your true colors. You are prejudiced, blaming the entire religion of Islam as the culprit. There are examples from every religion where wars were fought for “the religion”, when in fact it was nothing more than aggressors interpretation of the religion. There is death all throughout the old and new testaments. Blaming the tripolitan war on Islam is misleading in the way that though those pirates may have been muslims and claimed their right from their religion, it was an act by individuals. Many muslim nations of the time didn’t support the pirates acts. You place your feelings and prejudice before law and logic. You support tyranny as can be seen with your complete disregard of liberty of those with the muslim faith. Furthermore, the whole premise of statement is wrong in the fact that they attacked us in their waters.
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What the heck is Joe talking about? RON PAUL continually states that he is against the governments ideas and wars as well as how the media portrays hatred towards Islam and Muslims in general. RON PAUL is for the constitutional rights of religious freedom according to the 1st Amendment, he’s against the fact you can’t build places of worship/prayer in some major cities because of over-regulation.
RON PAUL 2012
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ummmm lol Google First Barbary War yourself…. North African Berber Muslim states most commonly known as Barbary Coast War… lol MUSLIM STATES…do your research before making uneducated comments seriously.
I dislike people who are ignorant about facts…Ron Paul is right Terrorism Was never a problem until we got into their lands and started to tell them what to do…. During the American Revolution the British Considered many Americans TERRORISTS and their deeds would be punishable by DEATH…
The United States of America has Terrorized and done STATE TERRORISM LIKE:
Indonesia’s anti-Communist purges (1965–66)
Indonesia’s occupation of East Timor (1975–1999)
Wars in Indochina
Atomic bombings of Japan (1945)
Cuba (1959–present)
Operation Mongoose
Nicaragua (1979–90)
READ or GOOGLE Nicaragua vs. United States
USA LOST that case in a WORLD COURT
and I can keep going and going and going… I don’t condone what Radicals are doing but I also do not condone TERRORISM in GENERAL… Whether the USA is behind it or Islam. Terrorism is WRONG and the United States Government should be the last organization to speak about terrorism, They done it in a MUCH LARGER SCALE… My brother is a Marine and he could get killed in an instant because some stupid politician believes we should be fighting other peoples battles and getting into other peoples business… IDC if 2 million people get blown to pieces its non of our business…we have our own Issues. If someone attacks us for NO REASON…then We should declare war and KILL them S.O.B’s but if we are invading and controlling countries that don’t want it and they retaliate we have to accept the fact they are freedom fighters in the EYES of Their PEOPLE, like American Terrorists where during the REVOLUTION.
IF YOU DON’T BELIEVE ME DO YOUR OWN RESEARCH….
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Ron Paul always makes sense and indeed is one of the good americans. I personally praise him for his patriotic views for US and tremendous understanding of other religions. The rest of you or most of you are educated crooks.
Highly rated. What do you think?
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“Slay the unbelievers wherever you catch them.” (2:291) “Fight them, until there is no more dissent and religion is that of Allâh” (2:193) “The vilest of animals in Allâh’s sight are those who disbelieve.” (8:55)
“I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers: smite ye above their necks (beheading) and smite all their fingertips off them.” (8:12) “Verily, the unbelievers are unclean.” (9:28), etc.
How can Muslims explain these verses? Aren’t these and many similar Qur’anic teachings, responsible for Islamic violence? Most religions have had violent histories. Islam is the only religion that teaches violence in its holy book.
WHY ?
Taqiyyah:
“… Practicing Muslims come to the West and pretend to be moderates. They say everything you want to hear but secretly plan for your destruction. They smile; are friendly and amiable; they even pretend to be patriotic. However, their only objective is to make Islam dominant. They talk the talk, but will not walk the walk.
Lying is a strategy to advance Islam is called taqiyyah, or “holy deception.”
http://quran.com/5/51
Hotly debated. What do you think?
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Islam is the only religion that teaches violence in its holy book?
You are a stupid liar. All three Western faiths preach violence in their Holy Books.
The Jewish faith and The Holy Bible share the scriptures with Islam. The God of all three is the same creator, so you do not know what you are talking about.
Hotly debated. What do you think?
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Hi again tiludwig,
I have some interesting links for you that you may like. When you have some some time, check it out:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l37RhdFGVsM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGTBkNJ8ZWI&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a2VDC8UQ3c8&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=irmcAecUJLM&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCxjqPgHgpA&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zw3i5Rzpx5A&feature=related
————————————————————————
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2CVAnRByfg&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCLesB3XSL0&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mIBFX3-xXB0&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0wzrq-tS4I&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yj0cuc559tA&feature=related
There is more to the Ring of Power. Just follow the next round.
Enjoy.
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Hi tiludwig,
You wrote in a previous post that:
“The difference between the Crusaders and the Islam is that the Crusaders did follow Christian scripture. Christ never told people to fight or kill in the name of God: Mohammad did. Thus, how can you possibly compare the two? I’m not defending any particular religion, just reporting the facts. I know there are people out there that want to rewrite history–especially Muslims. That’s there forte. Distort, lie, whatever it takes to make themselves appear to be something they are not. I’m not making it up. Their Koran says so.”
The following post I wrote previously:
“I like your name and I try to adhere to that philosophy. As for your reference to the Koran, I know what you referring to. The verses on the Koran which urges the Muslims (believers) to fight firmly against the disbelievers (deniers of the truth) has always been a subject of misunderstanding and confusion even among Muslims themselves. My understanding is that a true Muslim is one with soft heart and compassion who is too busy in self-purification and charity work that he/she has no thought of violence against others albeit someone who is antagonist to the faith of Islam. Due to this peaceful nature of Islam, true followers develop this natural lag to physical and combat response which sometimes becomes a necessity with any group of people to protect the welfare of its society. Every nation on earth including ours understands that there could be a time when a man has to stand up in defense of his principles and nation. Muslims are no exception to this rule. When someone attacks them or threaten their security, they have the natural right to fight back. With someone who much resembles a hermit and a saint in his lifestyle too busy giving thanks to the Mighty God, he is in need to be urged not to let his peaceful nature takes over him at a time when fighting becomes a necessity. That is the right perspective to understand the Koranic verses which call the Muslims to fight the enemy. Another pillar of this subject is the question of who constitutes an “enemy.” Not everyone that does not want to believe in Islam is an enemy of Islam.
“Allah forbids you not to treat kindly and deal justly those who have neither fought you in the matter of religion, nor driven you out of your homes. Indeed Allah loves the just.”
Sura al-Mumtahanah 60, verse 8
This is the main principle that governs the relationship between Muslims and non-Muslims. It is unfortunate fact that those who spread the propaganda about Islam being a religion of violence expect Muslims and possibly any religious belief system adherents to turn into wimps and turn the other cheek. Even if turning the other cheek were a matter of individual modesty, it should not allow for passive response to aggression when the whole nation or society is under attack. Have there been incidents in the Islamic history where misunderstanding of this principle led to unpleasant conflict between civilization? Probably yes, but the conduct of people is not binding on the religion itself or its doctrine. In our modern times, when Muslims were colonialized by our Western expansion, attacked, and their national wealth unjustly robbed or disposed of, the aggressors spread the propaganda that fighting back was an aggressive and violent tenant of Islam itself rather than natural and justified reaction to aggression.
All I want to say on this point is: it does not matter who we are talking about, when some one is threatened or attacked, they naturally have the right to respond and vindicate themselves of that aggression. Instead of dehumanizing the victim, we should dehumanize the victimizer. I think that is fair enough.”
The following verse as stated above is from the Quran which commends the Muslim to be kind to those who did not fight them:
“Allah forbids you not to treat kindly and deal justly those who have neither fought you in the matter of religion, nor driven you out of your homes. Indeed Allah loves the just.”
Sura al-Mumtahanah 60, verse 8.
Now consider the following is a verse from Matthew 10:34
“32 “Whoever acknowledges me before men; I will also acknowledge him before my Father in heaven. 33 But whoever disowns me before men, I will disown him before my Father in heaven. 34 Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth, but a sword. 35 For I have come to turn
a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law—
36 a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household [Micah 7:6]
37 Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; and anyone who does not take up his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39 Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.”
Consider what the Quran said about those who do not fight Muslims causing harm to them an and their religion, and consider what Christ said and make your own conclusion. To me it is obvious that Muslims could not be accused of violence while Christians could not be said to have a peaceful religion unless we give more reasonable interpretation to both.
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Truth Seeker,
Thank you for your response.
Oh boy! I’m going to have to review what you wrote and think it over. I’m not about to get into debate with you without being prepared.
My demeanor here with you is completely sincere. I’m not being a smart ass. I’m clarifying this with you upfront since you cannot see my facial expressions, or hear my tone of voice. I don’t want any misunderstandings between us; I am not interested in making an enemy.
I will get back to you as soon as time permits.
In the meantime, here are a couple links to some music videos that I came across during research. The artist is one of my favorites. WARNING: what you are about to hear and see isn’t the message you get on main stream media!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Jy8p5aE7CQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wpYegSmJO2w
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Hi tiludwig,
Thanks man for the music vids. Awesome! Check the following the link. You may like it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2CVAnRByfg&feature=PlayList&p=CC002BB2975930C5&playnext_from=PL&index=0
Peace!
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Here are my first statements. I am not ready to give my official position on the matter because I am still collecting information. That is why it took me so long to respond, truth seeker. I don’t know everything there is to know and I’m not going to pretend like I do. I also am not one to make conclusions based solely on emotion; I like to work with objective facts.
So far, I believe that I have narrowed down one piece of information and I think it is fair and objective; as far as 9-11 is concerned I believe that the major players that were probably part of the attacks (either directly or indirectly or by admission or omission) include any of the following (all or a few): Al Qaeda, Mossad (Israeli Intelligence), The Saudi Royal Family, The US Federal Government and perhaps media outlets (both foreign and domestic).
I don’t think anyone here on this board or even in the whole world can deny: there are just too many discrepancies with regard to how 9-11 played out to ignore (unless of course you believe that ignorance is bliss). This is includes events before and after the attacks.
The final thing I want to say about 9-11 that really gets into my crawl is: I’ve noticed quite often that people who question what happened on 9-11 (or think that the official story is BS) are often ridiculed and mocked. I’ve read plenty of blogs to know this to be the case.
I guess that somehow or another, some people think that other people should not inquire about the events surrounding 9-11; that they should just ignore their own perceptions (both intuitive and sensory); or doubt what the government has told them. And if they do question or hypothesize then that means that they are either “crazy”, “delusional”, “paranoid”, “irrational”, “stupid” etc. This is crazy making behavior in itself.
I have every right to ask questions without being negatively labeled. Moreover, I have the right to think for myself and not have someone else tell me what or how to perceive something. That doesn’t mean that can’t challenge my belief system or point something out. For example: I watched building 7 fall and to tell you the truth, it looked like a professional demolition job. It did not look like it fell “due to heat or fires”. It fell uniformly. I used my OWN perception (my eyes, my brain) to come to that conclusion—someone did not have to convince me to think that and it wasn’t “just a feeling”.
Should I ignore my OWN perception so that I can avoid being labeled crazy or stupid? Or it goes something like this: “oh come on now, you know you didn’t really see it like that did you?!” I think there are technical names for these types of behaviors: “gas lighting” and “psychological warfare”.
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Hi tiludwig,
Allow me first to salute you for your courage and independent observation, not because you are coming to the same conclusion as I do. I care less if you believe otherwise as long as your observation and logic is sound. The main thing is the process of thinking to me. As a math teacher, I never pay attention to the final answer. It could be the wrong answer, but what matters is the sequence of logical steps and its progression which makes you a good mathematician. A magician that can give you the answer is not a good mathematician because he presents no logic in reaching the answer although the answer is correct. This is all I am asking for my friend. I want us the American people to stand tall and proud and think for themselves instead of running after the mainstream media which has lied…lied…and lied. Even Dan Rather admitted that there was some thing wrong in reporting and he apologized. Dan used to be one of my favorites. Journalism which I consider the forth branch of our government should be totally separate from the other three branches of our government, apparently not. We the people not them the people should report in the media and tell the facts. I do not need a congressman to tell me what he thinks happened on 911. We should be spending our time talking to the witnesses who were there at the scene. How in hell it became possible that 911 evidence is classified and that only the two or three who led the investigation committee were allowed to examine such evidence? When are we going to wake up and challenge this rotting system of secrecy and executive immunity? What kind of immunity a thief wants? Trust! What kind of immunity a serial killer wants? That he is a dove! What kind of immunity a prostitute wants? That she is still a virgin!
I have to agree with you that many parties were involved in 911 but even if anyone from Al-Qaida was involved was because of Pakistani puppets were involved who always acted under the supervision of the CIA. Check out the global research site http://www.globalresearch.ca/ on 911 and how the Pakistani orchestrated the smoking gun, but under whose supervision and orchestration?
It is time my friend that we tell these criminal thugs and bastards that the people is America and we are watching, that we are in charge, that this is our nation, that they killed our citizen and bring them to justice. They are the ones with their satanic places of worship (Masonic temples and Skeleton Bones Clubs) that should go away and never come too close to ground zero. How convenient when they expect us to believe that the fox is the guardian of the chicken coop? If there were any goodness in those bastards who took public service as a competition for glory and career benefits, they would have not sold us out to the private banking industry of the Federal Reserve System. As we speak we are close to 14 trillion dollars in national debt with an annual interest accruing on the debt at about 400 billion dollars! Where this money has to come from? From you, me, and the minimum wage little guy who struggles to make it, and now he is even unemployed! Enough is enough to hype us into elite wars that killed our young troops, and made the banking criminal network of elite whom are we finding out now that they were behind the massive foreclosures and the destruction of the notes. We have no one to rely upon besides the Mighty God for those who believe in one, and ourselves. We need to stop following. We need to start thinking for ourselves and take the lead for our nation…our children…our future. We owe it to ourselves to do that. Thanks again tiludwig for your courage and search for the truth.
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OK Mark,
Just explain to me how I am bringing this all crap in when you were the one who started the Anti-Semitic argument. Did I call you anti-Semitic? Or were you who did? So I am merely responding to that argument. Your are right about the figure of dead in WWII, but I was talking about both WWI & WWII. By the way and a side note for your information, in both wars, ARABS and many Muslim nations were on the side of the allies, did you know that? Sure some African and Arab merchants as well as many others were engaged in the slavery trade of African slaves, but who did most of the heavy lifting in the slavery business? Was not it the Europeans of Spaniard, Dutch, Portuguese, and Anglo-Saxon in general? We are drifting away from our topic a little bit, but that is much better than exchanging curses and stupid names, is not it Mark?
As for “the Kennedy’s were against the US joining the war as they were exporting arms and other items to Germany.” No I did not know that, and thanks for the information. Would I believe that? Probably so because many political and financial elite around the world find it convenient and profitable to their clan interest to play it both ways. If the Rothschild did it, then why not also the Kennedys? That is not too out of line to believe. I like though to have some narrative source so that when I argue the facts, they are facts not just hearsay. Thanks again for the information.
As for the rest of the stuff, I am going to be nicer to you this time and ignore it. At least I leaned something this time from you and I appreciate that—gratitude.
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TruthSeeker, You brought up the Israelis and implicated them and the Mossad in 9/11 attacks many many post ago. You have also made many disparaging remarks about them in past post. I guess you just don’t remember. Palistine was under control of the British at that time as was Egypt and other parts of North Africa. So it stands to reason that they would be on the side of the Allies. So that would explain why Jews migrated or escaped to there. At the same time Iraq was on the Germans side. I don’t know if it was their choice or if they had some Treaty which obligated them to side with Germany.
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Mark,
We are making some progress here bro. Let’s just agree on some more civil terminology. Instead of describing someone’s opinion or statement as a “remark” or “inflammatory” or as any subjective value to it, let’s just state it as it is: simply opinion, view, or allegation. How does that sound? I will be back in a while to respond to your last post. Like I said I am not too big not to seek knowledge. I am here to learn, so be my guest if you have something to teach me. So I will get back to you in a little while. I must go for now.
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Hi Mark,
Finally I have a moment, so let’s follow up on the last conversation we had. You said that most or some Arab countries were on the side of the allies because they were under the British mandate. Let’s test the facts and reason of that statement.
First, the author of the Arab revolt against the Ottoman Empire was Sheriff Hussein who was the patrimonial founder of the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordon. The man was a pure Arab Bedouin of Saudi origin. Saudi Arabia which was not called that name then, was called Arab peninsula was NOT under the British mandate. In fact if you re-call Lawrance of Arabia was sent by the Buckingham royals to motivate the revolt against the Turks. Lawrence instead fell in love with the Bedouin culture and protested the whole mission when he came back to the Buckingham. The British mandate in fact operated to the opposite result, as the case was with Iraq which was involved in the Anglo-Iraqi war. Iraqis hated the guts of the Brits that they stood against the allies instead of the other way as you reasoned. The fact that Britain was hated for its colonialization of the Arab countries at the time backfired at the allies in some instances instead of working for the allies. Is that reasonable? Sure it is. I am more of an enemy to my enemy’s friend. That psychology and logic is most likely the case when observing the human behavior.
As for me posting allegations that Israel was behind 911, you are right. That is my whole case pretty much. I presented my info which was not my own work for debate. Albert Pastore did all the work and I think his presentation beats the hell out of every reason no matter how biased one could be. I am still challenging my readers to refute Pastore’s thesis. I am willing to listen to solid arguments but not hubly bubbly teenage dude talk. I never heard from you or anyone on this blog that was able to refute any of his evidence. So let’s put our emotions aside for a minutes and stop exchanging insults and accusations. Let’s deal with it as some academic project or term paper that we will be graded on according to objectivity and reason. The work done by Pastore is about 75 pages, but it is worth every bit of it to go through it.
I am just curious about you Mark. We are both Americans, but you seem to hold Israel in special place in your heart that amuses me. Any specific reasons for that? If you do not want to talk about that, that’s fine with me, but I am just carious to know, especially that you told me you were Agnostic. I know most Christian Evangelists have their religious slant on the subject, but knowing who you are now makes me wonder. Anyway, if you are not willing to debate Albert Pastore, that’s fine too, but I think we all should proud ourselves of being Americans in our intellectual liberty and love for justice and truth. We may continue to believe in our ways, but that does not mean slandering the belief of others. According to our values, we are NOT a mainstream culture; we are rather a variety of so many backgrounds that have come to accept that we are one nation in the face of danger. I do not doubt your love for America, and I expect you to do the same for me.
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Truthseeker,
Actually there is still white slavery going on in quite a few of the muslim countries, also in Japan! Check it out!
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Joe H.
So is there a great deal of homosexuality, incest, and many other moral flaws everywhere I guess. What is your point? What are you trying to say?
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TruthSeaker Your little ploy to change the common meaning of Anti-Semite does not wash it is well known the term is used in reference to those who hate Jews. If you were intelligent as you claim you would know that. Otherwise your just acting childish. As for letting me have the last word. How is that possible if you keep responding. By the way I am neither Jewish or a Zionist. I am in fact Agnostic and have studied several different religions, which include: Taoism, Buddhism, Hinduism and Daoism and Shintusim.
The only pu**y here is you. Your are the one afraid of the world and people in it. I took an oath to uphold the Constitution and protect this Nation from any and all enemies from foreign and domestic. I will honor my oath till the day I die. As you have shown in your post you have no honor and would understand the meaning even if you read the definition.
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Mark the lie,
Every time I present a counter-argument to you, it is like a little ploy to you. You took the oath to protect the Constitution, but you are only protecting the “cons institution” I suppose the Constitutions teaches tolerance, not bigotry. It teaches that people have a fundamental right to property, freedom of speech and association, although you seem to interpret that only as it serves your own interest without regard to your opponent. You believe in justice, but only when it means “just us.” Look in the mirror Mark and you will see that you are mere reflection of what you accuse people of doing. You have been so conceded and trapped into your own little world that you see the world a singular point. Now your way to deal with that is to pour your tantrum at your opponents just like a child who can not get his way, yet you call others children! As long as you bother and persist to answer my posts, I will let you have it. Good luck to you and hope to see you roast in Hell. I will let you have another round of profanity.
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TruthSeeker. You prove my point every time you post. You are still delusional.
SJ123 has your number too, You immaturity is amazing, you sound like a 12 year old. You don,t even pay attention. I’m Agnostic and telling me to go to hell or roast in hell is a waist of time. It also show just how immature you really are.
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Mark,
You still have not debated one single issue I posted. Your style of Kill the messenger if you want to kill the message will not get you anywhere. Apparently you are verbally and mentally abusive individual who likes to go off on people when he has no point. This will make you the child and the delusional one. It is not what I say and what you say; it is what the readers of this blog will say as you continue to evade the issues. Once again address the issue if you have any substance instead of referencing other bloggers. SJ123 can talk for himself and regardless of what he thinks; you should learn how to think for yourself. Maybe this is your chance to point out to you that you have so much to learn before you engage in debates. Better than that yet is to learn how to treat others decently instead of sticking it to them. I know what anti-Semitic means, and I know how the ill term has been used and abused, and I know who gave that meaning to it, but I was questioning your ABC ignorance of things which falls for everything. Anti-Semitic is a very bigot term which makes Jews even more of a target for bigotry. It is the Zionist stupidity that made most people against them because they made themselves the only victim of injustice. Maybe 6 millions died in the Holocaust, but how many were killed in WWI & WWII alone? About 80 millions! How many natives were killed in the Americas? Close to 20 million! How many Blacks disappeared from Africa during the slave trade time? About 50 millions! Yes we have so many Holocausts that make the Nazis one look the smallest, so how come we never talk about other Holocausts? You see this knowledge you may or may not find it in books Mark, but you have to be intelligent enough to ask the question at least. Have you? I feel sorry for the little Jews who were crushed by the Nazis, but their fellow prominent Jews like the Rothschild were the ones who financed Hitler to kill them while at the same time financed us to go to war. Do you know that Mark? Look no more in regular history books, because they will never teach you that! You need to grow up and take lead of your destiny Mark instead of letting your true enemies lead you to Hell; yes that kind of Hell I am talking about. You better call the Rothschild anti-Semitic pal. You seem like you have no brain of your own, but if you are willing to experiment, you will find out that you deserve something better. Go read a book, even better than reading, analyze it and critique it after you read it.
Calling people delusional and childish is attacking their person, not attacking the issues they present. Apparently as basic as that is, you never learned that. When someone presents an issue, you respond first to that issue. You do not start going ballistic and mad that you have nothing else to say. So say I am childish and delusional; what are you when you continue to be verbally abusive and you have nothing to say but attack the person instead of the idea? I hope that you will take just one of my points seriously and learn from it.
As for roasting in Hell; you are NOW because you put yourself in there. Do not worry too much THEN because you will see it in time not because you are Agnostic or Hindu or anything, but simply because you are a denier of the truth. Yu see something before your eyes, and swear you never seen it before. That will roast you in Hell. There is nothing wrong with being ignorant if you one. We are all ignorant of something or another, but when we have a chance to grow out of our ignorance and we continue to defend it, then we deserve to b called ignorant for life.
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I’m 1/8 Sioux Indian for your information. The number of people killed in WWII was about 56 million the majority were Chinese and Russian killed by Germany and Japan. You bring up all this other crap because you have no legs to stand on. I haven’t evaded any issue, that’s your cup of tea. As for blacks in Africa slave trading was common practice for hundreds of years. The blacks sold there own people to Dutch traders, who intern exported them to the rest of the world. did you know the Kennedy’s were against the US joining the war as they were exporting arms and other items to Germany. The only ignorant person on this blog is you. One more thing SJ123 did speak for himself but you obviously were not paying attention if you actually read his post. I’m sure you are so busy fuming and trying to think of what you are going to post next you don’t comprehend anything posted. Have a nice day.
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Sorry SJ123, but you and Mark have not read anything I posted either. I posted not only the former wrestler show on the conspiracy theory, but a whole work done by Albert Pastore. Have you looked at it? It is really worth your time if you are serious about knowing the truth. I would also suggest to you to look at Alan Sabrosky’s work. Just google both of them and you will see.
As for equating the questions about 911 with “is the sky purple? Can cows fly? That tells me you are hopeless like Mark. I never asked those questions and I never came close to asking such. Again, are trying to be unusually cute? Anyway, I did not attempt to pretend that I was an architect like you with an expert opinion, nor your opinion would have meant anything to a jury trail. I only posed a question that deserved to be answered. Listen to yourself duplicating the mainstream media when you said it took you five minutes to formulate an answer! 911 was a case that deserved all expert testimony from all schools of thought. How come we have no expert testimony on the subject besides carefully selected panel of “experts?” What’s up with about 1300 experts who said otherwise and were never allowed a chance to testify to the investigation committee? How about the experts who found Thermite residue in the dust? Where did the Thermite come from? Bin Laden flew the airplanes into the building, and Bin Laden also had access to the building to paint the beams with Thermite liquid? What about Building 7 that was not hit by any airplanes yet falling at free fall speed? That I would equate with if the sky looks purple example of yours! C’mon man! You see how much you pay attention to what others have to say? Apparently it is you who have been waiting for his turn to talk without listening to anything that has been said about 911. Look, I am not here trying to win people like you over because I know that would be more difficult than turning a huge solid rock into whip cream. What I am trying to accomplish is another version of the debate that the readers of this blog are entitled to consider. I did not start the ground zero hoax and since it is the Cordoba Community case, I will leave it to them to decide what they want to do about the building as long as they are protected under our laws. In fact, I would argue that since the issue is of a legal nature, let the courts decide it. Neither one of us have a saying on that. This is what I call respect for the laws if you consider yourself a good law-abiding citizen. What I care about is that the whole hoax of the ground zero story was based on nothing but a story that was completely flawed and a great number of our citizens do not believe in nor they ever believed in. The argument that Cordoba Community should be more sensitive to the feelings of 911 victims is full of venom because what it does is indirectly confirms and repeats the old lie—that Muslims did 911 and furthermore outrageously all Muslims including our citizens owe folks like you an apology! I find this to be more than just a cause for satire, but totally outrageous. It is like saying; since the sky is purple (to use some of your words) then the sun looks blue! Both the premise and the conclusion are false which gives FALSE value to the whole statement even when we assume that the premise was FALSE as long as the conclusion was also FALSE! You may want to consult an article on P implies Q logic and how that works. But to make it simpler, you can not just reach whatever conclusion you want to make using a false premise. So let’s prove first that Muslims did 911, or alternatively make your conclusion regardless. That should work as well. There was not a single shred of evidence found at the 911 that links Bin Laden to 911 besides a theory since you are against conspiracy theory. Was Bin Laden a good suspect? The answer is YES 100%. Is that enough to conclude his guilt? NO. What we see here is someone on the other hand that was too eager to go to war under all circumstances. The plan to invade Iraq was set long time ago before 911. Again, I want you to do your own research on those points I am making unless you just want to wait on your turn to talk, something I am sure you are against. You have to remember I do not have to prove I am right. I only have to shed the doubt on the 911 official story. The ones who advocate 911 being caused by Muslims have to prove their case. If you disagree with this principle, then you are not an American. According to our judicial system, the burden of proof is on the accuser, not the accused.
Everything else you mentioned in your response is trivial and irrelevant including your 5 minutes architect analysis which I find ridiculous as well, but that is my opinion and I am not an expert either. Just address my concerns please. It is not enough to be witty and a good talker to present the truth. It takes a great deal of integrity and intelligence to discern the truth. Thank you and it does not really matter who wins this debate. It is about the truth that everyone’s needs to know as a matter of right. I am sure the Cordoba Community will decide regardless of your or my take on the whole thing. I personally will leave it up to them and respect what our legal judges have to say about that. That I call American—respect for the law.
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MARK and TRUTHSEEKER:
Mark, I truly appreciate your dedication, but seriously, you must have better ways to spend your time. With that said, at least you’re sane and rational, and I appreciate your dedication. Politically, I lean to the left. I stumbled across this site after watching Rand’s acceptance speech on CNN (I know TruthSeeker, I’m brainwashing myself) and have to admit that I really like what Ron Paul has to say, especially in concern to foreign policy. I also want to qualify this by saying I’ve only read MOST of the posts on this last page.
And I have to ask, is this a joke? I don’t know if TruthSeeker is trying to be ironic or doing a satire on political hypocrisy, but seriously, you’re kidding right? You ramble on about Mark’s ignorance to fact, don’t seem to have actually read anything he’s written. It’s like watching politicians preach about bipartisanship, hilarious but sad. And the best part, your “facts” are provided by a TV show about conspiracy THEORIES hosted by a former wrestler. I don’t understand how Ventura feeding on a mother’s enduring grief or the recollections of a maintenance worker with no real knowledge of architecture or physics provide facts?
Granted, they do present some questions. Examples of other questions include: Is the sky purple? Do cows fly? When in conversation, do I listen to the other person and respond, or simply wait to speak? That last one’s for you TruthSeeker. My point, people can ask any question they like, that’s what makes rational thought great. But a grieving mother asks questions like this because she can’t accept that her daughter is gone, and a maintenance man does because he doesn’t understand what he experienced.
But let’s entertain Maintenance Man’s question. I would think that when a large plane hits a building full-speed, it might cause that building to tilt, even if slightly, and more than just the wind would cause. The building has supports that run from the top to something like 20 stories beneath the ground. When the top tilts, it causes the bottom to move correspondingly. If you need a visual aid, place any box on the ground and tilt it slightly. You’ll notice that one side LIFTS off the ground. And then the ridiculously massive building resettles, maybe 7 seconds later, and BOOM again.
This possible explanation took me about 5 minutes to formulate, but does provide an alternate answer to your “Bush did it” response. I am not, and have never been, a Bush supporter in any way, shape, or form. I voted against him twice because of his views, actions, and rhetoric, especially in regard to waging war in the Middle East. But do I think he murdered over 3,000 US citizens, perpetuated a cover-up among all but the most fringe/extremist media outlets here and abroad, and used it all to go to war in Iraq? Unequivocally no.
And Mark, I guess now I understand. Thanks for the distraction, this beats the hell out of staring at Wolf Blitzer and percentage figures. And TruthSeeker, if this is just a joke, you got me!
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SJ123,
Did I read everything Mark posted? I do not know if I read everything, but every response I made to a particular post he presented, I read it thoroughly. Mark’s main theme on this subject is not much different from all others who stand against the ground zero mosque. He is against it. His rationale is that even if the law stands by the Cordoba Community, nevertheless, they should not go ahead and build the community center because so doing would be insensitive to the 911 victims and their family. This approach poses trouble for me not because I am against Marks proposition that a decent individual should be sensitive to how others feel around him. I was raised by a very conservative family. Respect is more important than principle. I had to fight my way in life to assert my rights against the rather exaggerated concept of respect. So by way of upbringing, I support Mark’s proposition. That is not the problem. The problem is rather in the notion that Muslims did 911 and therefore, Muslims owe the world an apology and must watch out to the point were they should be very apologetic even as to give up their civil rights! That to me is unacceptable. This is in particular so due to the fact that if Muslims did not do it, then there is nothing to be apologetic about and hence there is nothing to compromise and give up. Even if we assume for the sake of argument that some Muslim groups, a terrorist one did 911, that does not implicate the Cordoba Center in the guilt, nor does it justify alienating the US Muslim citizen population as we heard the most bizarre arguments that US Muslims are to be counted on Saudi Arabia and Iran. Since some Islamic nations does not tolerate the building of churches on their land; therefore, the Cordoba Community should not have the right to build their center! This is outrageous for the simple fact that the Cordoba Community is not part of those nations; instead, it is part of our American society. I am not saying that Mark advanced all those arguments, but the trouble began when we demanded proof that Muslims did 911. Is that too much to ask for? Why are you guys selling this case as if it is not subject to any debate? Why do you want others to take it as given without further challenge? Apparently your views of the holiness and sacredness of the government—that the government could never do wrong is disputed by many people including the former wrestler you seem to mock. It was not just Jesse Ventura who disputed the official story. All you have to do is google “911 truth” and you will see tons of return info on the subject. Truth is a combination of decent information (facts) and sound logic. There is no substitute for that. You seem to want to block even investigations into the most controversial case in our history. Over 30% of our citizen population does not believe in the official story of 911. Does that mean anything to you? A man can not be convicted in our court of law if one third of the jury is acquitting him (hung jury.) The burden of proof is on the government to prove its case, not the Cordoba Community to prove its innocence. This is what I know American is. So could you tell me why I am such unreasonable person and I deserve all the adjectives you stuck to my forehead? Please do not respond if you are going to continue evading the points I am raising by calling me names, adjectives, and labels. We are done from this debate unless you practice what you preach—necessity to listen to the other side. I care less if you all in all continue to disagree with the outcome. All it matters to me is that you acknowledge that unlike what you think, we have some valid argument. At the end we just respect each other for searching the truth, rather than blocking out the civil debate.
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mark the lies,
Congratulations for your astounding victory! Now you can go on your Sabbath and rest.
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TruthSeeker By the way, why do you hate the Israelis so much you sure sound like an Anti-Semite could it be you are Muslim or are you just a better than everybody else kinda guy? Oh, and have nice day.
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Here you go again Mark the lie,
Anti-Semite ?
If you are anti-Arabs, then you are anti-Semite because Arabs are Semites.
If you are anti-Muslims, then you are anti-Semite because the majority of Muslims are either Semites or followers of Abraham—the patrimonial ancestor of Semites.
If you are anti-Africans, then you are anti-Semite because some Africans; North African, West Africans, and East Africans are either pure Semites or highly mixed Semites.
Israel? That’s your love and passion Zionist and it really shows. I suspect that you are a Zionist Jew, or just plain hillbilly Evangelist who is sold on the virtues of Israel. Loser!
You really want to find out who I am? I will meet you face to face and show you what kind of pu**y you are. You think I buy what you said that you served in our troops? And even if you did, you did not serve our nation. You served your gods of oil dynasty.
So I guess I am missing the point. Why do you continue to respond to my posts after I let you have the final word? You have done that twice. If you forgot, scroll back and see. This shows you have no grace either! By the way, I am not mad. I am enjoying every bit of it because this way the readers of this blog get to know your kind for real.
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Mark,
I was not the one who published the 911 official story. You ask me for my proof that AlQaida did NOT do it? That is a very twisted logic. This is like me asking you to prove that you are NOT a homosexual! Your logic is twisted my friend. If I say that you are a homosexual, then I must come up with evidence against you and I am required hence to prove that you are. Here, it was the media in the early hours of 911 that decided the case before anyone knew what actually happened! How convenient and how motivated! How in hell someone in the early hours knew that Bin Laden was behind it? How in hell someone knew that the building came down due to structural failure? How could you conclude such a huge event like that with simplicity and ease? Do you see where my problem is?
As for me believing in conspiracy theory, you are right except that I do not like what others call it as a “theory” to give the impression that what they say is “facts,” but what I believe in is “theory.” Look, I am too intelligent to fall for crap like that. The government came up with the official story which is the same story the mainstream media told us in the early hours. Any little town rape case could have taken months and possibly years to find the perpetrator, try him, and bring him to justice. The most serious event on our soil did not. What do you make out of that?
I am going to make you watch what Governor Jesse Ventura presented. Luckily Mr. Ventura is not a senile who lives in the woods with saliva dropping down. He is part of our government which we are questioning. I am also attaching a link to the early hour report of the mainstream media on 911. Play it back and decide for yourself.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fOWWIDT910I
http://www.infowars.com/building-7-implosion-the-smoking-gun-of-911/
http://www.brasschecktv.com/page/176.html
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TruthSeeker, the fact is the media was speculating about who committed these acts on the very first day. It was very to pick Al-Qaeda for the simple reason that they had already been responsible for bombings of American installations around the world. All the big media had their experts on security and terrorism coming to the same conclusion that Al-Qaeda was the only ones capable of committing this. The Government had been intercepting information that something was going to happen. The CIA, FBI and NSA along with some minor intelligent agency all had pieces of the puzzle. Due to there inherent arrogance they did not share information with each other. If they had they might have prevented this attack. The term structural failure is a term used when there is any collapse of a structure in a catastrophic event such as in fire or earthquake etc.. The difference between solving a small town rape case and this, is simply manpower. When you have unlimited resources it makes things a lot easier. You also have a limited number (smaller than the people in a little town) people to look at and you have all their names and can easily investigate. It’s hard to investigate a crime with just a description of the criminal. Again as I have said before if the main stream media had any proof that the Bush Administration was behind this they would have crucified him. They absolutely hate him and all conservatives. I’m sure they wish what you are saying were true.
It is interesting how otherwise intelligent people are predisposed to conspiracy theories when they line up with their anti-establishment biases. It really does little good to counter these arguments with facts. We are firmly in the realm of emotional predisposition here. Inconvenient facts are to be bent or discarded while convenient ones are to be amplified. It really is quite interesting psychologically speaking. The theories themselves are obviously less intellectually challenging, but this window into irrational belief is intriguing. The most interesting thing about it is that these people think that they are thinking. They admire their own enlightenment and that buttresses their stubbornness. There is no fact so blatantly obvious that it cannot be quickly and easily discarded once they have invested so much of their emotional selves into this system of beliefs.In short, there is no point arguing with the true believers. The only value in countering them is to protect the weak-minded from their influence.
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Mark,
You conclude your comment with: “In short, there is no point arguing with the true believers.” If I am interpreting you right, you are saying that there is no point in posting your views on this forum; no point in the civil debate which should be educational in the sense that it forces you to think and consider your blind spots, not merely to enforce your settled views on others. I am telling you, I am a truth seeker, I need to know the truth, but your presentation has come too short of presenting one single evidence that Al-Qaida did it. You said, based on their history of other bombings, they must be the culprit. “All the big media had their experts on security and terrorism coming to the same conclusion that Al-Qaeda was the only ones capable of committing this.’ So what if they had a history of bombing us? Does that in itself establish the guilt of Al-Qaida in the 911 case? This is not how our legal system works. Under the menace of terrorism which is becoming no more than a war against a shadow, we lost our ways as Americans. We pride ourselves of being the leaders of the free world, but we are being reduced to less than many tyrant nations around the world. We went to Iraq without a speck of evidence that Iraq had WMD. After we destroyed the civilian life over there, we admitted publicly that there was NO WMD; nevertheless, we told all the intelligent folks who warned us that we did not have a case against Iraq: Screw you, we did it anyway! Bush said it out loud, “nevertheless, it was a good thing to do.” meaning taking Saddam down. The war which followed 911 was the real motive behind 911, it seems too obvious. Bin Laden has been dead since December 2001, but we are still fighting the shadows in the caves of Tora Bora and we still release videos of him threatening us! The price? The life of our young troops, and more money wasted which is needed right here at home to bail out our dead economy. Now tell me by God, who is the beneficiary of that war? I could tell you that it is not me or you. How convenient to send someone else to fight for us while we are posting gold ribbon stickers on our cars’ bumpers: SUPPORT OUR TROOPS! Like Ritter put it: “support the troops my A**.” How convenient to spend our tax money on infinite aimless wars without discrete goal in sight, while millions of our citizens can no longer afford their mortgage payment; others unemployed waiting on the list for benefits! All these questions to you are conspiracy theory. C’mon man and after all, the Truth Seeker is a well-known liar that others should not debate with. He is a conspiracy theorist. How daring Mark!
I must second you for saying “In short, there is no point arguing with the true believers.” It seems to me that after all these links that I submitted to you so that you could at least consider and respect, you continue to attack your opponents through character assassination and mere propaganda, yet claiming that your opponents are the propagandists! By God if you believe in one, is that fair?
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What I’m saying is there is no point in talking with you about it because you can’t see the forest for all the trees. You are hopeless and delusional. You have tunnel vision and would believe any facts presented because you are truly delusional!
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So if that is what you think of me Mark, why your lie dripping mouth continues to mention me? I am hopeless and delusional, that is settled, then why do not you keep that to yourself and talk for yourself? Why do you have to gossip about me like a resentful widow? Be a man and act like one. One thing I do not like about blogs is that allows cowards like you to say whatever they like to say from a distance without fear! If you want to be a man say what you want to say about someone in their faces, not hiding like a little wimp and running your dirty mouth without liability! I know who you are too and I know your type. I have seen enough of you cowards to pick on the minorities and disfranchised. It does not surprise me a bit that you are now anti-Arabs, anti-Muslims, and anti-anything that you could victimize. This is not a sign of power. It is only a sign of weakness and the way of the wimps. Sorry pal.
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TruthSeeker You are so full of it. You fired the first volley. You accused of being racist along with several other things. You are the only coward on this post and you have nerve to use the moniker Truthseeker. You hide behind that because you think it makes you noble. Your name calling shows you as a coward, it also shows me you are just another liberal who can’t argue against the truth. I volunteered for my country while you hid. You have no validity. I use my name when I post while you hide. I love my country whereas you hate it. So if you are an American, why don’t you just pack your bag and get the hell out!
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Yes your name is mark the lies. Straight to Hell you SOB! Next time talk for yourself and stop being a pu**y. I hope you learned something from this ugly expeience; the least is not to run your bad mouth, because you asked for it and you got it. Now you can have the last word because you are too low; I will not even spit on you!
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TruthSeeker, I have never met a liberal as easy to get under their skin as you. The only person being ugly is you. It is quite apparent that like other liberals you can’t handle any any opposition to you singular view. The more enrage you become the less credible you become. You can’t handle anyone pointing out the flaws in view point. You can call me all the names you want, it just makes me laugh. It just highlights the kind of person you are and lets everyone in on the truth.
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TruthSeeker sounds like a muslims from this post.
Anti-Semitism only applys to Jews.
anti-Semitism n: hostility toward Jews as a religious or social minority — anti-Semitic adj. (The Merriam-Webster Dictionary, p49, 1997)
Verse for you Mark:
Proverbs 29:9 If a wise man contendeth with a foolish man, whether he rage or laugh, there is no rest.
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Mark,
Are you acting as an advisor to others on this forum? Is that your version of Freedom of Speech that you are trying to defend?
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TruthSeeker, What a hypocrite, you have offered a multitude of advice in your post. I can offer my opinion just as you have offered yours. It seems you think as do most liberals, only your use of Freedom of Speech is valid. Freedom of Speech is exactly that, the freedom to voice your opinion regardless of what you have to say. You are the Biggest bigot I have encountered on any post. Your view is the only that counts and you refuse to accept that people disagree with you view.
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Sure Mark, I offered plenty of advice about the subject matter, NOT about other people on this forum. Freedom of Speech does not mean you smear people out and attack their persons. You can attack my views, but you have constantly attacked my person. So did you when you continually attacked a whole group of minority in our nation. You smeared them out as evil doers for trying to exercise their constitutional right and their civil rights under the municipality code to build their own community center thinking that you and your group represent the axis of this universe around which everyone else must revolve. Shame on you man advising tiludwig that I am such a hopeless evil that he should not have a dialogue with! That says a lot more about who you are than what your views are. We could always make mistakes on what we think and what we believe in. What I believe in today might not be there tomorrow, but I must maintain my personal integrity at all times, so do you. Unfortunately, you just told that you have none.
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See there you go again. At no time have I maligned any minority on this forum, yet you accused me of doing such. You tell people they don’t have the right to discuss this topic of 9/11 on this forum. You have neither the right nor the authority to make a comment like that. You need to go back and read the crap you have written with an objective eye instead of patting yourself on back and admiring your words. As for proof about 9/11, the only proof you have comes from other conspiracy theorist. That is not proof. There is on the other hand a mountain of proof that it was done by Islamic terrorist, including an omission of having done it by Al-Qaeda.
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Hi tiludwig,
I love you man! I love all humble people who are willing to put the truth above their false ego including myself. This is the start of a good journey. I fully agree with you: where is the civil debate in this country? Where is it?
You can say anything you want my friend about anyone you wish, but here is my problem. I never allow myself to be naive enough to be exploited, not would I ever allow the truth to serve the ends of falsehood, nor would I ever allow goodness to serve the ends of evil. This debate about the ground zero mosque is one of those scenarios. Whoever was the SOB who brought it to daylight at this time was nothing but pure evil. I believe in civil confrontation and that is the only way to cope with our differences; religious, racial, political. That’s my definition of liberty and tolerance. We need this debate, but at this time? I do not think so. Motive to me is just as important as action itself. You know what is the problem with our nation tiludwig? We are a bunch of hypocrites and I do hate hypocrites. I would rather deal with Satan than deal with a hypocrite. Why is that so? Because I know how to deal with Satan, but I never figured out how to deal with a hypocrite.
Let me ask you this question and let it be the start of our civil debate: Why this subject is brought up NOW? Who was behind it? Lets first debate this point and hopefully it could be an informative and instructive experience.
I look forward to continue the debate or the educational experience with you. Sorry if I insulted you by my sarcasm. It is just my way to deal with a shock when I experience one. I found your information and your reasoning to be shocking, so I dealt with it with sarcasm.
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Tonight Mike is going to talk about how we the people are killing ourselves… what the effects of division are. He´s going to dispel all the plagiarism and contending theories — disprove all of them. Then in the third show, he´s going to round all this out into a firm understanding of solution. So, there will be three programs, the set of which are the whole picture — a complete prescription for how to do the revolution.
http://www.tnsradio.ning.com at 3 PM to 6 PM Pacific Time
Warm regards,
Friends of MPE
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David A. Morse,
Great job on all your posts. They are rich, informative, and challenging. Keep up the good work bro. Thumb up!
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To all on this forum,
None of you has the slightest right to even bring the ground zero mosque debate on this forum before you settle one issue: Did the Muslims do 911?
Until and unless you prove it beyond a reasonable doubt, all you are doing is living and re-living the BIG LIE of 911 which sold us into war with other nations—war that killed thousands of our young troops, cost us over a trillion dollars and continue to poison our minds, hearts, and drain out our valuable resources.
All of you with all due respect, need to stop this mad debate and start a journey for the truth that is based on hard evidence, not lies and speculations. Remember, we must prove that Muslims did it, not that Muslims did NOT do it. All doubt must be resolved in favor of the Muslims in the same manner the accused is entitled to all due process of law according to our legal standards. You do not have to prove yourself innocent, but your opponent must prove you guilty. If you have problems with the way our judicial system works, then stop claiming that you are an American and that you care about our liberty and constitution. Just come out of the closet with your true color and say it loud, that you are a sheer bigot and a traitor. Check out the following link and start your journey for the truth:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Uw5Bz-oL3w&annotation_id=annotation_976172&feature=iv
Please do not respond to this post before you watch the whole series and start doing your own homework. We have wasted too much valuable time on this thread in total nonsense. It is time that you folks get serious and start posting sensible thoughts.
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When W told America they did this because they hate freedom, I thought why?
When he said that Sadaam was harboring Al Queda terrorists in Iraq I knew he was full of sh$t. I had to stop and think why would Osama Bin Laden attack the WTC.
Then it hit me! I remembered an old movie called Red Dawn. The plot is the USSR
invades and conquers the USA. They immediately set up as their puppets; federal, state and local government. Terrorists then wage a terrorist war against the occupying force. Did I say terrorist? I’m sorry I meant freedom fighter. Today the Vinnell corporation insures the continuance of freedom and democracy in Saudi Arabia by acting as the personal army of the Al Saud family. Did I say freedom and democracy? God am I stupid or what? I meant to say “an entertaining government”.
Beheadings every Friday, who could ask for more? They don’t make the population dependent on competent government by spending any money on infrastructure. They don’t need roads, or food? The only reason the general population wants to overthrow the monarchy is because they’re are a bunch of ingrates.
Enough sarcasm if you have read this far, I want you to ask yourself a question:
How would I feel as an American, with a foreign Army in Washington DC keeping a dictator who is a puppet for that foreign government who is despised by 80% of the population(include yourself in that 80%)?
Next what actions would you take.
Would you:
1) Say oh well I’ll just do what I am told and watch TV.?
2) Try to get friendly with the occupiers hoping for a cushy mid – level government job like comrade in charge of burning all copies of that idiotic US constitution?
3) Or would you fight back?
If 3 is your choice go to the nearest FBI office and turn yourself in for thinking violent thoughts involving terrorism. Like that SOB Bin Laden.
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Thanks Kris Johnson for standing up. It is rare nowadays to see courageous people stand out. Some of the misery makes you really laugh. Sometimes tears just do not come out, so it is much easier to be sarcastic. You did a fabulous job. Thanks again.
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“This sentiment seems to confirm that Islam itself is to be made the issue, and radical religious Islamic views were the only reasons for 9/11. If it became known that 9/11 resulted in part from a desire to retaliate against what many Muslims saw as American aggression and occupation, the need to demonize Islam would be difficult if not impossible.”
“There is no doubt that a small portion of radical, angry Islamists do want to kill us but the question remains, what exactly motivates this hatred?”
Mr. Paul, you cannot negotiate with irrational religious zealots. Trying to figure out how to make them like us is a utter waste of time.
Furthermore, if we are to follow your logic on this matter, then we would have to not only pull out of the Middle East (which I have no problem with) but we would also have to stop supporting Israel. The Arabs (which are primarily Muslim) don’t like Israel’s “occupation” and hate the fact that we recognize the State of Israel and support her right to exist. Is that a a “small portion of radical, angry Islamists?” I say not.
And why do the Arabs hate Israel so much? The primary reason is that Israel is the only country in the Middle East that resembles the US in its values and democracy. Has anyone ever looked at a map of the region? Its mind boggling to see how infantile these Arabs really are. Israel is a speck on the map and the Arabs fight tooth and nail for every inch. I support Israels right to exist in that region. The Israelis have a long history in that part of the world–in fact longer than the Arabs do. The twelve tribes of Israel inhabited that region in Pre-biblical times. And the fact that Arabs want to “wipe them off the map” with nukes just shows what lengths they will go to. Morality means nothing to them. Therefore, life means nothing. Its insane. Take a minute and Google an area map of the region and judge for yourself.
Mr. Paul do your homework about Islam before you start sympathizing. The history of Islam is rife with bloodshed. It’s “prophet” constrained through violence (not peace and love like they’d like us dummies to believe) and his followers are only mimicking his example. ALL Muslims read the same Koran. The difference between “moderate” Muslims and the the “small portion of radical, angry Islamists” is that the “small portion of radical, angry Islamists” apply its principals more precisely.
It’s time to stop romanticizing Islam; stop acting like they just want to practice their “religion” “peacefully”. The only time that Muslims are peaceful is when they are the minority but just wait until they become the majority–its another matter entirely. (Just look at the Middle East as proof of that. They terrorize Israel).
If anyone thinks I’m wrong then do a a little research and see for yourself how this “religion” has evolved over time to become the second largest movement in the world.
At that brings me to a crucial point. In my opinion, Islam is not a religion, its a political ideology hell bent on world domination. The “religious aspect” of Islam is but a mere window dressing. Therefore, it should stripped of its protection under the first amendment. In essence, Islam is using our system against us to kill us. Yes I said it. Kill us. “Convert or Die”. That’s their creed.
I suggest anyone who disagrees with me look up the facts. Let us all use our thinking faculties, lets stop sacrificing truth for political correctness. Otherwise before you know it, America will be fighting these bastards on our own soil. 9-11 is tip of the iceberg. We will be the next Israel.
Call me an Islamophobe. It beats the alternative.
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tiludwig,
“This sentiment seems to confirm that Islam itself is to be made the issue, and radical religious Islamic views were the only reasons for 9/11. If it became known that 9/11 resulted in part from a desire to retaliate against what many Muslims saw as American aggression and occupation, the need to demonize Islam would be difficult if not impossible.”
“There is no doubt that a small portion of radical, angry Islamists do want to kill us but the question remains, what exactly motivates this hatred?”
“Mr. Paul, you cannot negotiate with irrational religious zealots. Trying to figure out how to make them like us is an utter waste of time.”
Why should we negotiate with some low creep sub-human sand niggers? They hate us because we are a free nation, and our democratic styled government is something they resent because they are not human enough to see our exceptional goodness and high rank in the evolution ladder! It is a waste of time even to talk to those lunatics. Just kill them all and let God sort them out!
After all, the whole world loves our coercive taxation system, scandalous foreclosures, oil driven wars, our fabulous Federal Reserve System with our crook predatory banking industry. We have the highest crime rate in the world in particular violent crimes, highest divorce and infidelity rate, our kids can not read and do simple math, we have the most prisons, most homeless, worst pollution, one of the worst drunken car accidents, we own nothing: our houses, our cars, our furniture, our tools, our businesses, even our tuition money all belongs to creditors who charge us interest from the day we are born until our successors buy us our coffins on a plastic card! The world just can not envy us enough because we are the land of milk and honey, and dammit, those sand niggers have nothing. They still live in the scorching desert and worship a stone, a snake, or a frog. They eat live humans without cooking them first, and their spices really stink. Their women do not know how to do blow jobs and they do not have enough experience in bed like ours. Oh our women compared to theirs, oh man never mind! Now you see why they hate us?
“Furthermore, if we are to follow your logic on this matter, then we would have to not only pulled out of the Middle East (which I have no problem with) but we would also have to stop supporting Israel. The Arabs (which are primarily Muslim) don’t like Israel’s “occupation” and hate the fact that we recognize the State of Israel and support her right to exist. Is that a “small portion of radical, angry Islamists?” I say not.”
Did you say Israel and her “right” to exist? You are right man, who would argue with your sound knowledge of history? Hell, those so called Palestinians never existed anyway. Who are they especially when you consider that most Israelis about 90% are Ashkenazim Jews, not real Jews who have genetic line to the ancient Hebrews who were brought to Palestine from Egypt in the times of the Exodus? Those Palestinians evolutes from mermaids of the Mediterranean, ever heard of mermaid Disney Story? Yap that’s what I am talking about. Arabs, not Palestinians are the issue here. So all we have to do is look at both sides: Israelis and Arabs like Syrians, Egyptians, Lebanese, Jordanians, but definitely NOT Palestinians. Why? Because they do not exist like I said before. The Hell with Palestinians. Man they are a big headache for the innocent Israelis who are trying to live their life. Can not you see how peaceful Israelis are? They invented the Uzi machine. Do you know how accurate the Uzi is? It hits your target 100% of the time especially if you hand it to one of your insane Jewish settlers who go once a while inside the Muslim Palestinians places of worship and watch them bend over foreheads straight down to the ground talking to their god. Can you imagine how intimidating that is when you see those animals turning their backs to you and they just can not see what you are doing, or know what goes inside your head? Man it is so tempting to test how accurate that Uzi machine. You just have to be a Jewish settler to know the feeling! All you have to do is close your eyes and aim. Oh NO! You really do not have to aim, just shoot from the hip and you will kill a 100% of those bastards. That’s how accurate the Israeli Uzi is. It is a 100% accurate!
“And why do the Arabs hate Israel so much? The primary reason is that Israel is the only country in the Middle East that resembles the US in its values and democracy.”
Ya man right on! I heard that argument before, but it only made me personally sick to know that one day we had to kill the Native Americans to replace them exactly like the Israelis replaced the…Palestinians? Sorry again, the Palestinians never existed, so what the hell I am talking about?
“Has anyone ever looked at a map of the region?”
Actually I have. There is a map I wish I could scan and attach to this response. Never mind I will give the link, so you could check it out. It is really nothing like the point you are trying to make though. It is actually quite the opposite. This map I am talking about is one which shows how much Palestinian territories have undergone changes since 1946 to 2009. If you examine it closely, it will tell you that Palestinians occupied Israel and NOW Israel has succeeded in taking all its land from the Palestinians. Hallelujah and thank you God! In 1946, less than 7% of the land so called Israel belonged to Jews while 93% belonged to the Palestinian? Damn I keep saying Palestinians, pardon me! But you get the point. Now Israel owns more than 85% of the land. Check it out here on this link because a picture is worth a thousand words:
http://www.jewwatch.com/jew-genocide-palestinian-apartheidlaws-lossofpalestinianland1946to2000.html
“Its mind boggling to see how infantile these Arabs really are.”
Ya man, just do not let it boggle your mind too much because the brain is too valuable to waste. Have you seen that commercial before? YOUR BRAIN ON DRUGS? Yap. Just do not over do it!
“Israel is a speck on the map and the Arabs fight tooth and nail for every inch.”
Yap all you have to do to see that is just examine that map above!
“I support Israelis right to exist in that region. The Israelis have a long history in that part of the world–in fact longer than the Arabs do. The twelve tribes of Israel inhabited that region in Pre-biblical times. And the fact that Arabs want to “wipe them off the map” with nukes just shows what lengths they will go to.”
Damn right, Arabs have some serious nukes…wait a minute! Are you saying that Arabs have more than 300 nukes which Israel has? Israel is saying that is a lie but also rejects any international inspection. Have you heard about the Israeli human rights peace activist Mordechai Vanunu who disclosed Israeli nuclear capability? If you never heard of him, check the following link:
http://www.jewwatch.com/jew-criminalsandspies-vanunu.html
“Morality means nothing to them. Therefore, life means nothing. It’s insane. Take a minute and Google an area map of the region and judge for yourself.”
Did not I just tell you that those savage Palestinians eat humans alive before they cook them in the ovens?
“Mr. Paul does your homework about Islam before you start sympathizing. The history of Islam is rife with bloodshed. It’s “prophet” constrained through violence (not peace and love like they’d like us dummies to believe) and his followers are only mimicking his example. ALL Muslims read the same Koran. The difference between “moderate” Muslims and the “small portion of radical, angry Islamists” is that the “small portion of radical, angry Islamists” applies its principals more precisely.”
YES…YES…YES! All Palestinians are Muslims, and all Muslims are terrorists; therefore, all Palestinians are terrorists. See I know how to apply P implies Q, and Q implies S; therefore, P implies S logic. It is also called transitive property. Radical angry Muslims are just as accurate in their principal applications as the Israeli Uzi, Ahuh!
“It’s time to stop romanticizing Islam; stop acting like they just want to practice their “religion” “peacefully”. The only time that Muslims are peaceful is when they are the minority but just wait until they become the majority–it’s another matter entirely. (Just look at the Middle East as proof of that. They terrorize Israel).”
Man I am really impressed by your love for Israel. Why not? If you are with God, you must also be with Israel. YES, I heard that before on some Christian Evangelist radio network. Israel even comes before America, because if all Zionist officials in our administration ever seize to take care of our national interest, we will all perish. Thank you Jesus for giving us so many dual citizen officials like Richard Perle, Michael Chertoff, Douglas Feith, Wolfovitz and many many many more!
“If anyone thinks I’m wrong then do a little research and see for yourself how this “religion” has evolved over time to become the second largest movement in the world.“
No man we really need not research further after this illuminating lesson in history and political science. Who needs more?
“At that brings me to a crucial point. In my opinion, Islam is not a religion, it’s a political ideology hell bent on world domination. The “religious aspect” of Islam is but a mere window dressing. Therefore, it should strip of its protection under the first amendment. In essence, Islam is using our system against us to kill us. Yes I said it. Kill us. “Convert or Die”. That’s their creed.”
Ya I think I know what you mean. Have you heard of the crusaders? Kinda remind me of what you are saying. They also used religion to kill all residents of the Holy land including Jews in the name of Christianity. But the crusaders were though right because they carried big crosses over their shoulders. I wonder where they got the timber from. I hope just hope that they did not break and sack the houses on their way to the Holy land and used some of that wood to make their crosses. I am just using my wild imagination. Do not count that as part of the real history. I do not think you like mixing up stuff either!
“I suggest anyone who disagrees with me look up the facts. Let us all use our thinking faculties, let’s stop sacrificing truth for political correctness. Otherwise before you know it, America will be fighting these bastards on our own soil. 9-11 is tip of the iceberg. We will be the next Israel.”
We need no more facts tiludwig, because you gave us all we need indeed! Thanks for a great job.
“Call me an Islamophobe. It beats the alternative.”
If I were you tiludwig, I would seriously consider a comprehensive exam of other types of phobia as well, like ghostphobia, shadowphobia, nightphobia, lightphobia, bookphobia, brainphobia, and possibly many more. It helps man to know that you do not have too many of them especially that healthcare under the Obama plan would require mandatory coverage, so if you still have some more time to make sure…just make sure.
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Truth Seeker,
Everything out of your mouth is dripping in sarcasm. You must pride yourself on your sardonic wit: it must give you a sense of superiority. Luckily for me, I don’t take sarcasm seriously. I know that some people feel its necessary to resort to over-the-top sarcasm as a conversational crutch or in an attempt to shore up their own self-image.
If you want add something constructive to the conversation why not formulate a well-reasoned opinion? It is far easier to throw out a zinger than to make a thoughtful counterargument.
I guess it all comes down to what your motivation is, such as: to be right (someone else has to be wrong: win-lose), too look good and keep up appearances (someone else has to look bad: win-lose), to mock and try to embarrass someone else (someone will have to feel bad: win-lose), or to convert your opponent’s point of view through persuasive arguments (a win-win) Which is it?
What ever happened to civil debate in this country? I am humble enough to conduct an honest evaluation of my position, recognize my faulty thinking or to defer to other peoples judgment–even people I don’t agree with. This doesn’t mean I’m going to roll over and play dead though. You will need to be able to raise tough questions and present your case.
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tlludwig, Your wasting your time on this guy. He has no real proof of anything he says. He takes offense to anyone who exercises there First Amendment rights in regards to this subject. He is completely closed minded to any view but his own. If you don’t accept what he says as gospel he will try to belittle you. This guy is lost in some conspiracy fantasy. He seams to have a phobia of Government.
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I will not call you a racist because that is too easy. But I will say you are wrong. I believe all three major faiths have extremist elements. The Jews do have a long history in the region but it was not always their land. Read the Old Testement and you will see that the Jews invaded and took the land with force. They waged war and drestroyed cities and murdered. They used their faith as an excuse to say God gave them the land.
Christians also have a long history of death and destruction in the name of Jesus. Christians from Roman times of Constantine have invaded to spread the faith or kill those who refused to convert.
Spain invaded the America in the name of Jesus and murdered millions and destroyed native cultures. The US murdered millions of Native Americans in Jesus name. We justified slavery using the Bible to make their case. The salem Witch trials were a case of religous hatred. It was said the women were controled by the Devil.
Christians invaded the Palestine in the name of Jesus during the Crusades. The Templars were tortured and burned alive it was claimed because they worshiped Satan. Christians blamed the Jews for the Plague saying they were agents of Satan and tortured and killed many. The ChristianReformers split from Catholic CHURCH calling the Pope a servant of Satan. People were murdered. Kings have always ruled claimig a Devine Right to rule and killed and tortured to keep their throne in Jesus name.
Even now antiabortion Christians haved murdered doctors in the name of God. America is not a Christian nation. We allow all to worship God as they wish. If we say that Islam is not a religion than no faith should be allowed if extremist killings can make a religion invalid. Many Christians want to impose their faith on all Americans. Bush opposed Stem Cell research using his faith in God as the reason. I respect all people of faith and I would defend their RIGHT. But I will never accept their attempt to impose it on me. I am not a believer in God. The GOP passed a law to prevent the mercy killing of Terry Shivo.
Keep your faith but keep God out of public policy and government.
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The difference between the Crusaders and the Islam is that the Crusaders did follow Christian scripture. Christ never told people to fight or kill in the name of God: Mohammad did. Thus, how can you possibly compare the two? I’m not defending any particular religion, just reporting the facts. I know there are people out there that want to rewrite history–especially Muslims. Thats there forte. Distort, lie, whatever it takes to make themselves appear to be something they are not. I’m not making it up. Their Koran says so.
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You are stupid or you refuse to see the truth. There were muders of unbelievers in Jesus name equal or worse than Nazis.
Massacres During the Crusades – The first well documented riots or pogroms took place during the Crusades. Though violence was forbidden officially by the various popes, the bands of knights who set out on the crusades were essentially lawless marauders. Rather than protecting the Eastern Christians, which was one of the official goals of the Crusades, they often as not destroyed and plundered their communities. The conquest of Jerusalem itself was accompanied by a horrific pogrom, in which all the Jews who were not expelled were murdered.
Not surprisingly, the Crusaders turned on the Jews closest to hand. The first Crusade began in 1095. Guibert of Nogent (1053-1124) reported that the Crusaders of Rouen said: “we desire to combat the enemies of God in the East; but we have under our eyes the Jews, a race more inimical to God than all the others… The crusaders in Rouen and elsewhere in Lorraine massacred Jews who refused baptism. This was not the first instance of forced conversions. German Jews largely ignored warnings of their French coreligionists. The crusaders, egged on by preachers like Peter the Hermit and others, began to murder and pillage throughout the Rhine valley. In Speyer, “only” 10 Jews were reportedly murdered, thanks to the intervention of Bishop John. At Wurms, the majority of the Jews were killed, despite the protection and shelter granted them by Bishop Adalbert. Several hundred were massacred at Mainz with the approval of Achbishop Ruthard, and some committed suicide. In Koln (Cologne) Jews were hidden by order of Archbishop Adalbert, but they were soon discovered and murdered. In Ratisbon, the entire Jewish community was forcibly baptized in the Danube, to the accompaniment of a massacre. The massacres spread to Treves, Neuss, and Prague and many other other towns in Germany and Bohemia. In Jerusalem, Godfrey de Bouillon found all all the Jews conveniently assembled in a synagogue. He burnt it down and burned the Jews to death.
It is estimated that upwards of 10,000 Jews were murdered in Europe during the first Crusade, constituting a third to a quarter of the Jewish population. (Flannery, Edward, The Anguish of the Jews, Paulist Press, 2004 pp 93-94). This is likely to be an underestimate, since genetic studies indicate a “bottleneck” in the Jewish population of Europe at this time.
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In autumn of 1095, Pope Urban II launched the First Crusade by calling upon his fellow Christians to reclaim the Holy City of Jerusalem, and to seek revenge on the followers of Islam, whom he accused of committing horrendous crimes against Christendom (Asbridge 16). As Urban preached throughout Europe, he ushered in a new era of Christianity, that which readily used violence for its ‘just’ causes. Soon after Urban’s preaching tour thousands of Christians were ready to take up the mission and destroy everything that stood in their way. This paper will review the atrocities set forth by the first crusaders against both Jews in Europe and the Muslims of the eastern Mediterranean region.
Pope Urban’s call to crusade was made possible by the earlier work of St. Augustine on Christian violence. After all, on the surface Christianity appears as a faith of pacifism, demonstrated by Jesus, whose life reflected the rejection of all violence, as well as the Hebrew Bible in which the commandment “Thou Shall Not Kill” is revealed. How is it that St. Augustine and then Pope Urban II enabled violence to be an option for Christians? “From the fourth century onwards, Christianity underwent a gradual but deep-seated transformation as it fused with a Roman ‘state’ for which warfare was an essential feature of existence.” (Asbridge 13-24) Urban secured thousands of participants for his cause when he promised rewards in the afterlife, including a guarantee of eternal salvation to those who died in the struggle. “For the first time in Christian history, violence was defined as a religious act, a source of grace.” (Carroll 239-340)
For St. Augustine a ‘Just War’ is one that contains three components: 1) it must be proclaimed by a ‘legitimate authority,’ 2) it ought to have a ‘just cause,’ 3) it should be fought with ‘right intention.’ (Asbridge 24) The ‘just cause’ that Pope Urban II pronounced was the reclaiming of Jerusalem and to avenge the so called atrocities that Muslim ‘infidels’ had perpetrated on the Christian world. In doing so, Urban put forth a doctrine based on the denigration and dehumanization of Islam. “By expounding upon the alleged crimes of Islam, he sought to ignite an explosion of vengeful passion among his Latin audience, while his attempts to degrade Muslims as ‘sub-human’ opened the floodgates of extreme, brutal reciprocity. This, the pope argued, was to be no shameful war of equals, between God’s children, but a ‘just’ and ‘holy’ struggle in which an ‘alien’ people could be punished without remorse and with utter ruthlessness.” (Asbridge 34) “I, not I, but God exhorts you!…to hasten to exterminate this vile race from our lands,” Urban said to his listeners (224). The following excerpt from his speech at Clermont highlights the message he was spreading about Muslims:
From the confines of Jerusalem and the city of Constantinople a horrible tale has gone forth and very frequently has been brought to our ears, namely, that a race from the kingdom of the Persians, an accursed race, a race utterly alienated from God, a generation forsooth which has not directed its heart and has not entrusted its spirit to God, has invaded the lands of those Christians and has depopulated them by the sword, pillage and fire; it has led away a part of the captives into its own country, and a part it has destroyed by cruel tortures; it has either entirely destroyed the churches of God or appropriated them for the rites of its own religion. They destroy the altars, after having defiled them with their uncleanness. (Robert the Monk, Historia Iherosolimitana p.727)
Urban alleged that “Christians were being forcibly circumcised…and the resulting blood was spread on altars or poured into baptismal fonts; the Turks ‘cut open the navels of those whom they choose to torment with a loathsome death…tie them to a stake, drag them around and flog them’; they tied some to posts and used them for archery practice; others they attacked with ‘drawn swords to see whether they can cut off their heads with a single stroke’.” (Moynahan 222)
Although Urban freely spoke of the wrongs done to Christians by Muslims in the Holy Land, other sources suggest Christians in fact enjoyed a relatively peaceful existence in these Muslim communities. Christians indigenous to the region were treated with “remarkable clemency. The Muslim faith acknowledged and respected Judaism and Christianity, creeds with which it enjoyed a common devotional tradition and a mutual reliance upon authoritative scripture. Christian subjects may not have been able to share power with their Muslim masters, but they were given freedom to worship. All around the Mediterranean basin Christian faith and society survived and even thrived under the watchful but tolerant eye of Islam.” (Asbridge 18) Unfortunately, Urban was successful in defining Islam as a species apart, and Muslims as the ‘other.’ (Carroll 35) The First Crusade “marked a watershed in relations between Islam and the West. This was not the first war between Christians and Muslims, but it was the conflict that set these two world religions on a course towards deep seated animosity and enduring enmity. Between 1000 and 1300 CE Catholic Europe and Islam went from being occasional combatants to avowed and entrenched opponents, and the chilling reverberations of this seismic shift still echo in the world today.” (Asbridge 2)
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Mark,
I will let you have the final word, as I am always nice with ladies. You are right Mark. You made your point very well. Thanks and have a nice day.
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I knew you were a name calling liberal. It pretty pathetic when you have to post as two different persons so someone will appear to bolster your views. The truth is out and you can’t handle it.
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WRONG! You missed it Mark. Try to aim better next time. I will not give you the pleasure of explaining. Have a nice day.
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Hi David,
It is good to hear from you again. Ya man, some people just can not get it. They can not think independently. For that, I must condemn our educational system which produces mentally disabled and disillusioned people. For instance, how dumb is it to just think that the government is too good to do evil, or to think that the banks are too honest to rob and steal? Common sense and experience says otherwise. The Constitution as designed and understood by the founding fathers, the giant icons like Thomas Jefferson who were the model for independent thinking, reckoned that the government had more potential to turn sour than the public; therefore, the public needed protection from the government. By deductive logic, when something like 911 goes unfigured out, the first finger you point at IS THE GOVERNMENT. Oh NO what the hell I am saying? The government (gummint?) That can not possibly be. Well, get over it, it is most likely so. If something doesn’t make sense, follow the trail of money. Who has interest in wars besides the bankers and the puppet bureaucrats? Is that too hard to even speculate? Thomas Jefferson was a man of outstanding brilliance, pride, liberty, and independence. He was not one of those airheads that you have a better chance turning a huge rock into whip cream than making them see something under their nose. I am already getting tired David, but I will hang in there for a little bit longer.
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Hi TS;
Yes, please do hang in there, you are making an enormous difference and we desperately need people like you if were ever to have any hope of setting things right and overcoming the power which would prevent this, as it wont die easily and will take a concerted and continued effort from many of us.
There are always a few who simply refuse to consider anything beyond what they have been told or think they know, who can make things seem frustrating at times, but the vast majority are capable of reason and of learning and understanding as well and these are the ones who will be part of the effort in setting things right so that they can actually work toward everyone’s benefit.
Have already emailed many of your posts into circulation and they are making people think, and this is exactly what we need to do, as the more who do that and draw the obvious conclusions the greater our chance. I know from personal experience that the issues were trying to resolve are an absolutely exhausting thing to have to deal but they are also absolutely essential to our very survival and maintaining the freedom which this countries founding fathers wished us to have, and finally giving its people the right to the prosperity they are capable of creating for themselves as well, a cause for which many have given their lives time and time again in the past.
There is nothing which could be more valuable at this point than the knowledge thought and reason which you are contributing to the effort, and you are making a difference, and enormous one, and probably one far greater than you could possibly ever realize. Keep at it, we need you, very much in fact, and once again, thank you so much for your continued efforts and contributions to the cause of freedom
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You know what is your biggest problem Mark? You want to be the prosecutor, the witness, the attorney, and the judge all in one. Conjecture? Huh! You already concluded by conjecture that Muslims are responsible for 911; therefore, Muslims are not allowed to build a community center close to the crime scene that Muslims had nothing to do, let alone the Cordoba Center community which by no means did 911! How much conjecture have you already exercised? You are out of your mind and you want us to follow your argument? Man there is nothing worse than oppression. All you folks want is to stick it to the Muslims and oppress them in the name of the law and freedom of expression. This by God will not happen and the Cordoba Community will prevail and if you do not like it, go bang your heads against the thickest wall you could find. Hopefully you lose your heads in the process!
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NothingButTheTruth you are guilty of almost everything you are saying about me. I never blamed all Muslims for anything. You are trying to put those words in my mouth. By all proven accounts the men who committed the hijackings were Muslim. You have the most narrow mind of anyone I have ever encountered. You are one sick individual and you fit the description of a bigot: one obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his own church, party, BELIEF or OPINION. Primarily You belief is based on opinions of people who did not handle evidence and were not at the crime seen. You refuse to believe the fact that Al-Qaeda took responsibility for 9/11 and you have the nerve to call me out of my mind. You really need mental help.
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So now you know who I am, why are you still debating with me Mark?
“By all proven accounts the men who committed the hijackings were Muslim?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????”
That is just garbage like your trivial mind which is afraid of confronting the lies. Go do your homework, stop listening to mainstream media which lied about the WMD and got us into war anyway even after the lies were known to everyone. Until you lose a beloved one, you will never understand. Thanks you and I call it quit with you. No more debate.
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Making your point TS.
What are Banks, other than economic terrorists, who have always used bribery, corruption and assassination to gain control of a countries political system and through that establish power over its currency, who hence use their power and control of that currency in order to hold the country hostage for the purpose of progressively reducing its population under absolute despotism and in the end gaining absolute power for themselves ?
They have been involved in an all out push over the past 10 years to consume the last remaining wealth in America for themselves, i saw some numbers someplace that the total owned by Banks has gone from 17 % 10 years ago to 60 % today, and they needed a long expensive war in order to help them consume so much so fast.
I think anyone with half an ounce of brains who was willing to give this 5 minutes thought would bet money that banks had something to do with this, just as they have been the cause of pretty much every other war in the past few hundred years as well and are the only ones whom these wars have benefitted.
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TruthSeeker it appears you have dual personality as my last comments were directed at NothingButTheTruth an you answered. What I see here is you not only have a phobia of government but you are also afraid of the truth. You refuse to accept the truth because it does not conform with your fear of the government. All the so called facts of the building collapse you claim to be true are unsubstantiated. You are completely delusional. I think you would deny the truth even if you witnessed it first hand.
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Hi Folks,
Many of us have been abusing terms like “conspiracy, terrorism, violence, the constitution,” and so many others. The problem with those terms lies in their very subjective definition. A definition considered sound and functional is one that does not change with the person acting upon it, and also does not change relative to its outcome. “Justice” would not be justice if applies to the child but not to the parent. It would not be “justice” if it gives a random outcome to others like sentencing one criminal to one year while excuting the other for the same crime. Leaders of our nation blatantly waged war against other nations to “spread democracy,” but when the people of those nations conducted free elections which are the most cognizable form of democracy, they did not like the outcome of the free elections and they acted like the most oppressive tyrants. Is that by God democracy? It is the same thing here plays over and over again. “Conspiracy?” What is it? Any analysis of thought, assumptions, and facts that accuses the government or big corporations of wrong doing or intentional harm. WHY is it so bad, God forbid? Because the government can do us NO HARM, so does big corporations! Well, not quite true. We have enough history and sound logic to show otherwise. So if you do not like terrorism, then do not terrorize others. When people react to oppression which is nothing but terrorism in its purist classical forms, then the defender is called a “TERRORIST!” That is just absurd. I call it quit when I argue with ignorant who lack basic tenants of reason and knowledge of history. Man you could take a horse to a pond, but you can never make a horse drink. How very true!
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You really don’t know history well. I will tell you this anything man is involved with you will find corruption regardless of the institution. Your post that I’m responding to is almost incoherent and rambling. I ‘m not really sure how many points you are trying to make or if it is one singular point. If a government abuses you, what justice is there attacking the citizens? Why would you not attack the government?
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You my friend are delusional. You cant all the anger in your words. You try to belittle anyone who disagrees. You have still only have conjecture. A for your architects they are not structural engineers, and many things they design are crap.
remember the the Tacoma Narrows bridge disaster of 1940. No one would believe wind could do this, but it did. You still have no physical evidence. When and if you get some tangible evidence I and the rest of the world will believe. Until then. . .
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Mark,
Listen up. I am tired of debating with ignorant too. “This is the last thing I have to say to you.” I repeat after you. Again you need to listen to your own twisted logic. “It is a theory.” Right? Apparently not when it comes from the mainstream media and naive folks like you, but it is theory when some intelligent minds start asking questions. I can tell you there are over 1000 professional architects who are asking those intelligent questions about the fall of the WTC building including the “INNOCENT BUILDING 7.” It is YOU with your nagging views and posts that you want us to believe the theory or should I say the BIG LIE of the millennium. I challenge you again and again to open the archive and conduct independent investigations. Is that so goddamn hard? Only oppressive folks operate on false assumptions and then make a whole theme of scandals like wars with other nations based on such false assumptions. Did that even happen before? All the time, and it is you Mark who seems to be most stubborn ignorant on this thread. Apparently you did not lose a son in Afghanistan or Iraq to realize the gravity of this BIG LIE. You need to do your homework instead of arguing that the teacher is wrong. I am a math teacher and my entire mind operates on logic, nothing but logic. You so much remind me of some of my students who never do one problem I assign to them, and they come into the classroom and argue with me that I am wrong! I apparently continued the debate with you not knowing that you are the same Mark I know from before. “This is the last thing I have to say to you.” I repeat after you. I call it quit. Please do not respond to my posts because we are hashing and rehashing the debate. I am tired too. I will do the same with you. Thank you for understanding.
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I’m sorry you lost a son in Iraq. I have friends who have lost sons and I have friends who been to Iraq and back and will go again. Nothing will change what happened on 9/11 . As for you so called Architects who disagree that it could happened there are many more Structural Engineers that say the buildings could fall just as they did. As for Maine Stream Media they would love for you to be right, so they could blame Bush. Architects are not always right nor is anybody and a 1,000 is a relatively small number in the grand scheme of things.
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Mark,
Just give me one little favor. Google evidence of explosive material in the WTC. If you believe the story, then ask yourself, OK Bin Laden did the hijacking, so who else put explosives in the buildings? Oh do not forget building 7 because it was not hit by airplanes. Please do not respond to my posts if you do not do any research work, because if you do, I will have to ignore you.
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More conjecture. If you have no real evidence. Here is something for you to read http://www.haifire.com/presentations/Historical_Collapse_Survey.pdf and there has been another collapse in Las Vegas and one at an Airport over seas I saw that on TV too. I watched it happen on TV it pancaked too. You only seem to investigate what will the results you want and ignore all other information. I have talk to engineers at NASA, Boeing, Lockheed and personal friends who are structural engineers. I tend to believe them over what little evidence you have.
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Once again Mark, you are shooting back your crap at me. It is YOU who wants certain outcome from the investigations, not ME. I would love to prove that our government had nothing to do with 911 and that AlQaida had everything to do with it so that I can declare to the whole world that I am enemy #1 of AlQaida and I am ready to be in the frontlines to get them, poison them, burn them in the ovens if I could just like “they?” burned our citizens into a Hell looking flame. Now I do not give a flying crap if you believe a word I am saying, but I am open to all possibilities that may come out from serious investigations.
YOU Mark continue to present this subject as if it were YOURS v. MINE. This is childish. This case is not one of ours at all. This case for most part belongs to the families of the victims of 911 who are very displeased with our phony investigations. We are a bunch of cowards and suckers to settle for less than what they want from us. We betrayed them if you are not aware of that yet. They are still crying out for justice. YOU are the one who wants to pardon all other lines of investigations, accept the false premise, and turn around and stick it to the Cordoba Community! See how convenient that is to you? See how nasty your plot is?
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Mark,
Read one more time: “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion,” This simply means NO RESTRICTIONS on religious establishments. If you are still in doubt, read the clause which follows: “or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.” The Amendments to the Constitution are known for asserting the rights of all people including minorities that is why our system of government is called Constitutional Republic, not a democracy. The only democracy we practice is regarding the appointment of our leaders (voting process). Other than that, we guarantee the rights of all minorities even if we despise their way of life. Worse than the Muslims are the satanic cults and we still allow them to practice their beliefs. If we let democracy rule, the majority Christians in this nation would rule and you ultimately win the argument. There would be no ground zero mosque. Now one more thing you need to understand, laws are the end of any democratic process which means: once the law is in place, there is no voting to strike it down unless somehow you convince your representatives to sponsor a new bill repealing the law you do not like. So I still fail to see your point. You want the Christian majority who has low and negative sentiments towards the Muslims to be able to override the law. Also you are treating your Muslim fellow citizens as if they belonged to Iran and the Taliban! This is absurd. I am glad that we have a Constitution that respects the minority’s rights. Otherwise, you would drive all minorities out into the Amazon jungles.
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NothingButTheTruth,
Your interpretation is way off. The statement: “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion,” Means THAT THE STATE AKA THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT WILL MAKE NO STATE SPONSORED RELIGION. Example: the CHURCH OF ENGLAND. This statement: “or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.” That means that they can not make you follow a prescribed religion or prevent you from following the religion of your choice. Where did you get these twisted interpretations? Also the the government has the right to control cretin practices. That was established by Supreme Court in Reynolds v. United States.
You need to study the Constitution a little more, because you were taught poorly or you just don’t understand the meaning. By the way Thomas Jefferson wrote the the constitution in common English with no hidden meanings so that all people could understand, not just those of wealth and higher education.
One other the Muslims have low opinion of Christians. Go to Saudi Arabia and see for yourself
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Great Mark Davis! So we are on the same page. The State or the FED has no authority to interfere in the publics practice or choice of religion. That’s why public education is considered the State property and it could not enforce school prayers over all children especially when many children did not come from the Christian faith. So the point as it relates to our situation herein, there is no legal authority to interfere in the ground zero mosque and that fact explains why it was not against the local rules and regulations to give the building permit to the Cordoba Center community. If you are a true American, you should not try to out-wrestle the laws that are grounded into constitutional principals—freedom of speech, association, and expression, all covered under the First Amendment. You folks go out there and protest in huge numbers to override the law when if you are protesting the law, all you have to do is contact your representatives and sponsor a bill to outlaw the portion you do not like. In that case, the Cordoba community will challenge the constitutionality of your bill and the judicial will have its final saying on the issue. But NO, you do not like our system because you think politics instead of legal and moral. You can protest as much as you want, I challenge you to prove that Muslims did 911 and I do not want to hear the official story of the mainstream media or our government. I have yet and first to believe that Muslims did 911 and that is the source of all my trouble. I do not appreciate arguments based on false presumptions. First convince me that Muslims did 911, and then if successful, convince me that public protest of the law should change the law and the outcome of the subject matter in question.
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These people have the right to protest. They are saying they think building there is inappropriate. They never said you have no right to build. You seem as if you and people like say these people have right to protest. Al Kida and Osama claim they did it. Prove they lied and did not do. You refuse to see any point but yours. You are as bad as the clown from the White House Robert Gibbs who when ask what proof he had that the Chamber of Commerce was using forigen money in the election. His answer was “Prove their not”.
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“Prove their not!” This is exactly what you are saying Mark and it is what your group is saying. You are outrageously dyslexic! The problem always is in “PROVING IT” not in “PROVING IT NOT.” What you folks are protesting is not a government policy or some outrageous action. What you are protesting is the LAW and the Constitution which you see only as serving your own end. You believe in the First Amendment in as much as it gives you the desired outcome that is allowing the Christian majority in this country to rule, even then, the question may get reduced to (like the case with your role model the Visigoths of medieval Cordoba and Granada): which version of Christianity? You simply can not see a nation that is multi-racial, multi-ethnic, and multi-religious. Many of you said it bluntly: “THIS IS A CHRISTIAN NATION!” Well guess what? IT IS NOT. This is America that was founded by the pilgrims who fled the religious persecution and social injustice. Should that give you a hint what the Constitution means? You folks ought to be ashamed of yourself of dancing around the fire while your nation continues to burn. The problem with this debate is the fact that it is over something that was designed to diverge us from the REAL issues? What is our problem NOW Mark? It is not that the mosque is ground “zero” or it is too close to the murder scene which the criminal thugs are turning into a holy site! The problem is our ailing economy, our corporate wars, the daily light grand theft, the NWO, and the so many disasters that we heading into and which used and continue to use 911 as its ultimate means to achieve the end. This is just outrageous! You can not even figure this out after 9 years? This is funnier than the animal joke where the ASS came after one week laughing while everyone else stopped laughing because he was the ASS and it took him a whole week to understand the joke. Well it took us 9 years and we still can not figure out who did 911 and WHY? Wake up folks and get serious. You have been used and abused for your blatant ignorance and fall for BIG LIES. Wake up and learn from your mistakes. Wake up and learn how to stay up damn it!
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TruthSeeker. I have read most of your comments. This is the last thing I have to say to you. You have only a conspiracy theory, you have no proof than a bunch of dots that you connect any way you want. You have not proved anything. A theory is nothing more than unproven idea. You don’t have a smoking gun. When there is real proof of what you say the world will believe. Until then all you have is a bunch loosely knitted ideas with nothing concrete. They have been trying to prove the theory of evolution for about 150 years, it’s still just a theory. I imagine the same will be true about yours in 150 years from now.
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“Al Kida and Osama claim they did it..’ Oh really!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnychOXj9Tg
http://articles.cnn.com/2001-09-16/us/inv.binladen.denial_1_bin-laden-taliban-supreme-leader-mullah-mohammed-omar?_s=PM:US
http://911review.com/articles/usamah/khilafah.html
http://forum.prisonplanet.com/index.php?topic=58865.0
http://911review.org/Wiki/BinLaden.shtml
Enjoy the truth!
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NothingButTheTruth writes:
“Get over the ground zero mosque and respect the Constitution if you are a true American”
Jack Ryan replies:
How about this instead:
“Respect the Constitution and stop apologizing for, denying Muslim extremists mass murder of Americans here in America?
9/11/01 wasn’t the first time Islamic extremists attempted to mass murder lots of Americans at the New York World Trade Center.
On February 26, 1993, Muslim extremists used a truck bomb detonated below the World Trade Center in New York City. ” The 1,500 lb (680 kg) urea nitrate–hydrogen gas enhanced device[1] was intended to knock the North Tower (Tower One) into the South Tower (Tower Two), bringing both towers down and killing thousands of people.[2][3] It failed to do so, but did kill six people and injured 1,042.” (Source http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1993_World_Trade_Center_bombing)
I lived in New York City during this period and noted the terrible crime and constant threats of terrorism caused by our country’s lax immigration policies.
My advice to so many of the Ron Paul followers here is to:
Try to get out of a 1% contrarian cult and connect with mainstream Americans who want simple things, like common sense immigration controls to keep out Islamic terrorists – Switzerland does it, Denmark does it, Japan and Singapore does it, Israel tries very hard to it – it’s not really complicated or controversial.
If Ron Paul and his followers just start to consider the concerns of mainstream Americans, R.P. or some other libertarian candidates might do better than 0-1% in their next campaign.
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Jack Ryan,
America is not a Christian nation and Muslims did not do 911. All your arguments are based on false premises and hence they are all false.
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Get over the ground zero mosque and respect the Constitution if you are a true American
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NothingButTheTruth Nothing in the Constitution gives you the right to build anything anywhere. For those of you who spout “Separation of Church and State” The letter that Jefferson wrote on that subject was in regards to protecting the Church from the State not the other way around. Read the letter your self.
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Duh! Of course, Mr. Jefferson wrote regards the defense of the church from the powers of the state. It would be ludicrous to (in this and the last millenia) expect the state needed guarantees from the church.
It is shameful that people who live in the USA would dare speak out in outrage that their fellow citizens wish to build any religious affiliated community gathering place in compliance with local zoning requirements.
Mr. Ron Paul is correct when he brands such people in Thomas Paine’s famous words “Sunshine Patriots” and not real patriots at all.
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Believe I mentioned “…in compliance with local zoning requirements.”
I am in full agreement that the traffic and use patterns are fair game. Also, if the taking of property off the tax rolls is at issue, the zoning board (local people) make the rulings. Can you build or not?
It is a local zoning board decision.
All this nonsense about muslims and their culture or Quran or insults is demeaning to the republic and not worthy of citizens of the USA.
Just the way Dr. Ron Paul has eruditely put forth in his statement.
The shadow master demagogues that stirred up a rabble to protest this are villains, and in the tradition of Fr. Coughlin of the preWWII days over the radio.
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Are you drunk Mark? It is called the First Amendment—the right to gathering and association. Which Constitution you go by?
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They have thing called a zoning law in most cities. Three houses away from mine a Christian group tried to start a new Church. As of last week they were shut down because my neighborhood is not zoned for a church nor is their parking space available. Someone complained and they were shut down, at least as a church. They have to have the zoning law changed and that requires the residents of this neighborhood to all say it’s OK.
Your the one who needs to read the Constitution. Just in case your copy here is what it says: “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.” Where is the right to build claws? Remember you cant open a gun store next to a school.
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I would like to request that folks here and others who supported Ron Paul’s Presidential campaign make some effort to get back in to
Mainstream American Society.
Though Ron Paul had/has many positions that mainstream Americans support (ending wasteful foreign wars, ending usury Fed Reserve system) – it all comes to naught (R.P. won less than 1% of the GOP delegates) when R.P. and his die hard supporters take extreme positions on immigration, crime, terrorism against Americans here in America and in Europe.
You folks are simply not going to make it with any % of mainstream Americans, or Westerners in UK/Europe/Australia – The West if you make excuses or deny the horrible Muslim terrorist attacks and threats against Americans/Westerners here in our countries now.
Regular people in the West do not like to see mobs of dark, hairy, scary Muslims holding threatening signs saying things like;
“Behead those who say Islam is violent”.
“Europe your 9/11 is coming soon” (and these mob threat were over the printing of some cartoons in Denmark that suggested some Muslims were violent).
Hey folks, how about joining the mainstream in some small ways?
Or do you really insist in dropping out in to a <1% contrarian Libertarian cult that mainstream Americans dismiss as a bunch of cranks/kooks?
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Hey Jack,
If being a part of “Mainstream American Society” means that we should be shitting ourselves in fear of muslims, as you apparently do, than you can keep it.
You sound like a frightened coward who gets paranoid over signs and “mobs of dark, hairy, scary Muslims”, for god sakes man stop being a pussy.
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The Cordovan physician, Al-Ghafiqi (D. 1165) was a renowned botanist, who collected plants in Spain and Africa, and described them most accurately. According to G. Sarton he was “the greatest expert of his time on simples. His description of plants was the most precise ever made in Islam; he gave the names of each in Arabic, Latin and Berber”.l His outstanding work Al Adwiyah al Mufradah dealing with simples was later appropriated by Ibn Baytar.”
Abu Zakariya Yahya Ibn Muhammad Ibn AlAwwan, who flourished at the end of 12 century in Seville (Spain) was the author of the most important Islamic treatise on agriculture during the mediaeval times entitled Kitab al Filahah. The book treats more than 585 plants and deals with the cultivation of more than 50 fruit trees. It also discusses numerous diseases of plants and suggests their remedies. The book presents new observations on properties of soil and different types of manures.
The Muslims were the pioneers of sciences and arts during mediaeval times and formed the necessary link between the ancients and the moderns. Their light of learning dispelled the gloom that had enveloped Europe. Moorish Spain was the main source from which the scientific knowledge of the Muslims and their great achievements were transmitted to France, Germany and England.
The Spanish universities of Cordova, SeviIle and Granada were thronged with Christian and Jewish students who learnt science from the Muslim scientists and who then popularised them in their native lands. Another source for the transmission of Muslim scientific knowledge was Sicily, where during the reign of Muslim kings and even afterwards a large number of scientific works were translated from Arabic into Latin.
The most prominent translators who translated Muslims works from Arabic into European languages were Gerard of Cremona, Adelard of Bath, Roger Bacon and Robert Chester. Writing in his celebrated work Moors in Spain Stanley Lane Poole says, “For nearly eight centuries under the Mohammadan rulers, Spain set out to all Europe a shining example of a civilized and enlightened State–Arts, literature and science prospered as they prospered nowhere in Europe. Students flocked from France, Germany and England to drink from the fountain of learning which flowed down in the cities of Moors.
The surgeons and doctors of Andalusia were in the van of science; women were encouraged to serious study and the lady doctor was not always unknown among the people of Cordova. Mathematics, astronomy and botany, history, philosophy and jurisprudence, were to be mastered in Spain, and Spain alone. The practical work of the field, the scientific methods of irrigation, the arts of fortification and shipbuilding, of the highest and most elaborate products of the loom, the gravel and the hammer, the potter’s wheel and mason’s trowel, were brought to perfection by the Spanish Moors. Whatever makes a kingdom great and prosperous, whatever tends to refinement and civilization was found in Muslim Spain.”
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Jack Ryan, you really need a history lesson. It was not the Muslims who invaded them it was the Greeks.
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David A Morse writes:
“Cyrus was the greatest Persian Emperor and a righteous human being. At the time of victory, he was generous toward defeated people. Being a freeman, he won the heart of his people, permitting them to worship their gods. He was extraordinarily peerless in all over the world. Comparing Cyrus’ manner with Semi’s rulers, one feels great pleasure for the Persian liberality and generosity and truly regards the Persian as the instructor of human race.”
Jack Ryan replies:
So David, what happened to all those generous, righteous (Zoroastrian) Persians when brutal Arab Muslims invaded and conquered Persia? Is their unique, beautiful faith and culture doing well in Persia/Iran now these days?
Don’t think so David. You can still find some Parsis in Bombay, California, Texas – just not any in Persia/Iran – bad immigration policies, loss of control of borders will do that to a “generous” people.
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Cyrus was the greatest Persian Emperor and a righteous human being. At the time of victory, he was generous toward defeated people. Being a freeman, he won the heart of his people, permitting them to worship their gods. He was extraordinarily peerless in all over the world. Comparing Cyrus’ manner with Semi’s rulers, one feels great pleasure for the Persian liberality and generosity and truly regards the Persian as the instructor of human race.
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David A Morse writes:
“All faiths have extremist elements that seek to impose their values on everyone. We have many on the Right here who desire to impose Old Testement values on all Americans in the name of Jesus. ”
Jack Ryan replies:
Oh yeah – how many Indo European Christians, pagans, secular humanists are currently seeking to impose “their values” using terrorism and mass murder on everyone in Saudi Arabia or Algeria?
Try 0, none, nada, zip.
That’s because these countries/societies are ~ 99-100% Arab Muslim – so there are not a lot of Indo European Christians, pagans, secular humanists around to impose much of anything on the Muslims even if they felt the urge to strap bombs to their bodies and blow themselves up and kill lots of other people to further their religion.
And again, I request that some of the know it all Libertarians on here study some real history, not the “social studies” crap that passes for education here in the States these days.
People who study real history know that Algeria was part of the nation of France 50 years ago and the majority of the people living in Algerian cities where Indo Europeans up until the time that Algeria was granted full independence and the victorious Arab Muslims decided to kill, ethnically cleanse all the Indo European, non Muslims.
Muslims have never been known to favor lots of multiculturalism or go in for your 1% Libertarian cult.
OK, so I think I can safely say that I speak for the roughly 99% of Americans who didn’t vote for aged, bordering on senile Libertarian cultist Ron Paul, when I say:
No, we do not want Al Qaeda terrorists to come in to OUR COUNTRY and mass murder our people and we aren’t going to sit back cheerfully when some Islamic extremist group called “The CORDOBA INITIATIVE” decides to build an “in our face” Mosque on Ground Zero to celebrate the 10th anniversary of their terrible 9/11/01 slaughter of our people.
Have a nice day.
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So you do blame all Muslims for 9/11. There were Muslim Americans who died on 9/11 and there are Muslim Americans who are dying fighting our wars now. You sound like a nut, “Not that we know of” if any of these American Muslims were involved in 9/11? I guess you’re right, just like I do not know if you were involved in the murder of Dr. George Tiller. I do not believe you were, but I can not know. The builder of this community center is a moderate, sent around the Muslim world by our government. President Bush and President Obama both have sent him to tell them we are not at war with all Islam.
All faiths have extremist elements that seek to impose their values on everyone. We have many on the Right here who desire to impose Old Testement values on all Americans in the name of Jesus. You do realize that if Jesus returned today he would be stopped at our airports under the profiling plans proposed by the Republicans. Jesus was a dark skin Middle Eastern Man with dark hair. He would fit the profile.
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Hi David A Morse,
You make a lot of sense in your posts, but the bottom line is Jack Ryan is one of those who want to hate Muslims regardless of anything you say to him. Luckily our constitution allows him that, but our constitution also allows the NY Muslims as American citizens to practices their faith freely and builds the so called ground zero mosque. I think we are even and that what makes America great! Jack Ryan just has to learn how to bite the bullet if he wants to live in America. If he ca not, he is free to live anywhere on this planet. There are many places that are more homogeneous than the US and Jack Ryan would fits just fine in those places.
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David A Morse writes:
“Those building the community center did not murder anyone. Are you really hateful enough to blame all Muslims for the actions of a few extremists? If you are than you are as extremist as the terrorists.”
Jack Ryan replies:
No – not that we know of. But those in the “Cordoba Initiative” are celebrating the 9/11/01 Muslim terrorist attack – mass murder of our people in “our Country” by planning to open an “In Our Face” Mosque on Ground Zero on the 10th anniversary of 9/11 – planned to open on 9/11/2011
This is not a signal of “peace” from world Islam – which so many liars keep referring to as “a religion of peace”.
And look at the name of the group sponsoring this Mosque celebrating 9-11-01:
It’s called “The Cordoba Initiative”.
For those of you here who like George Dubya Bush never bothered to study European History – “Cordoba” is the city in Spain where invading Arab Muslim Moors occupied Spain for ~
700 YEARS!
Ok, the message is pretty clear to those of us who study history and are aware of current events.
The Muslims building this “In your face” 10th anniversary of the 9/11/01 Muslim terrorist attack want to do to New York City, America, what they once did to Spain:
Invade
Occupy
Implement Sharia law against non Muslims
This might involve slavery against us – as was done to Greeks, Serbs by Muslim Turks.
So are people starting to figure out just what message the Muslims in the “Cordoba Initiative” are sending to us?
It sure as hell ain’t a message of peace and tolerance.
Wow – trying reach folks in this horrible Ron Paul Libertarian cult is almost impossible.
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Jack Ryan,
You wrote:
“No – not that we know of. But those in the “Cordoba Initiative” are celebrating the 9/11/01 Muslim terrorist attack – mass murder of our people in “our Country” by planning to open an “In Our Face” Mosque on Ground Zero on the 10th anniversary of 9/11 – planned to open on 9/11/2011.”
MY QUESTION IS: Is that what the Muslims of NY said in a public statement or is it your own conclusion?
As for the history of Cordoba and settlements of the Muslims (mostly neighboring Barbar ethnicities from North West Africa), you call that invasion. Should we call our Anglo-Saxon settlement in the Americas invasion too? What does that make of you and me then? It sounds like you are the one who needs some schooling in history because the history of the Muslim rule of Medieval Spain is one of the most glorious ones in the history of mankind. Through that golden era, science, philosophy, architect, trade, civil life and ethics reached its peak. Jews specifically were assigned high court positions in civil and political life. Even the most antagonists Jews to the Arabs and Muslims could not deny that. It was the other way around when the Christian Visigoths imposed their religion on the Iberian Peninsula and either converted the rest to their version of Catholicism or executed the persistent even slightly different Christian groups that they did not fit into their fanatic code.
It sounds like you are paranoid when you talk about implementing the Shariah law. Believe it or not, much of that Shariah law, we are practicing here in America already and in fact we need more of it like laws against usury, laws against prostitution, gambling, drug abuse and trade, even death penalty although under Shariah law the standard is “doubt” not “reasonable doubt” which means you could never execute someone unless there is no doubt whatsoever to the guilt of the accused. All immoral practices that our Christian values condemn are also condemned under the Shariah law. You sound horrible when you talk about something you have little knowledge of. I do not mean to disrespect you by saying that but I really command you to start reading history, not propaganda, more often. Look, the whole ground zero mosque deal is not to promote civil dialogue among our citizens. Have you asked why NOW it is all over the place and the mainstream media? It is called diversion politics. Forget about the economy; stop condemning the war in Iraq and Afghanistan because we need to escalate it further into Pakistan and Iran! The ghostly enemy is waiting for us in the caves of Tora Bora who will bust us on Halloween night! Man go do something better with your time and help us figure out a solution for our dead economy. Join us on Sound Money thread and share with us your precious thought on the urgent topic. We need you even if you do not need us. Thank you and have a good day.
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Millions have been murdered in the name of Jesus through the centuries. The Crusades were wars faught to impose our will on followers of other faiths. We do do want to go down the path of using past wrongs to justfy our evil acts of today. There is more than enough blood on all our hands. We blame Iran for supporting terrorists today.
But we must remember that we reimposed the dictatorship in Iran in 1953 because their elected Prime Minister wanted to Nationalize their oil reserves and industry. America is not a shining city on a hill. We have been and are now an evil empire. Take your head out of the hole and see the truth.
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Millions have been murdered in the name of Jesus through the centuries. The Crusades were wars faught to impose our will on followers of other faiths. We do not want to go down the path of using past wrongs to justfy our evil acts of today. There is more than enough blood on all our hands. We blame Iran for supporting terrorists today.
But we must remember that we reimposed the dictatorship in Iran in 1953 because their elected Prime Minister wanted to Nationalize their oil reserves and industry. America is not a shining city on a hill. We have been and are now an evil empire. Take your head out of the hole and see the truth.
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Jack Ryan,
You are loony tunes in your rational of peoples and religions and movements and … and … and… every thing you say leads to logical inconsistencies.
Your reasoning is both dangerous and bordering on sociopathalogical.
I could not disagree with you more, and I think that your hatred expressed is hopefully understood by all who read it as deranged.
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@Postmodernist, freedom of worship only applies when it does not involve murdering anyone else. Let’s hope Ron Paul sees the light. Check out this link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qg_iDPRud_c for a look at what tolerance did to Britain, Germany and others. We can either learn from history or repeat it.
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Yes Connie “what tolerance did to Britain, Germany and others?” Our tolerance to the international Jewish mafia that controls our destiny and creates enemy for us out of thin air like the fictitious money they create for us out of thin air only to their New World Order agenda and world financial control. Who pushed us into WWI? I think if you turn off your TV and stop listening to airhead redneck like Bill Whittle, you will find out that the Rothschild and the Warburg were behind pushing us into WWI, the same folks who put us through slavery since 1913 with the Federal Reserve Act and Federal Income Tax Act so that you would be in debt for eternity you and your grandchildren and pay interest on the debt through coercive taxation system. If you turn off your TV and start browsing the internet and reading good books of history, you will learn that Muslims are among the most tolerant people on earth. The history of Andalusia (Cordoba & Granada) is a crown in history for all minorities including the unthankful Jews who lived in prosperity and peace under the Muslim rule in Spain for eight centuries until the Christian Visigoth took over in 1492 and started their inquisition courts to prosecute even Christians who did not submit to their religious denomination and fanaticism. If you turn off your TV and stop listening to the Neo-Conservative-Zionists INC, you will find out that Muslims had nothing to do with 911 at all. Even decent Jews came out and pointed out the finger at Israel and its evil satanic Mossad’s role in 911. Google Alan Sabrosky, Albert Pastore, and see for yourself who did 911. You want to alienate Muslim Americans as if they belonged to Saudi Arabia or Iran! This is pure malice. They are American citizens like you and me. America does not belong to one faith. America the Constitution is a secular nation that was founded on the separation of Church and State whether you like it or not. Even Satanic cults are allowed to have its temples. In fact we have so many of them and most of our leaders belong to those cults—Masonic temples! Have you ever thought about why the overseas Muslims hate us? Not because of our democracy which we do not even practice anymore. They hate us because we are bullies and we want their oil for nothing. We want their territories for our military bases which serve no purpose at all and continue to waste our tax money needed here at home for jobs, education, and health care. In fact, Arabs and Muslims have always been our allies: In WWI & WWII they fought against Germany and Turkey. They happened to hate communism too. Muslims and Islamic history are considered part of our Western Civilization history taught in our post-secondary institutes. Turn off your TV and start your own investigative work. You will not be disappointed at all. This whole thing about the ground zero mosque is nothing but a distraction from the real issues. It is diversion politics of the neo-cons and the Zionists who want to secure Central Asia for the grand theft of all times—the pipeline and other recently discovered mineral resources. After all, the financial elite will benefit from it, not you and me. Get smart and join us on our other thread: the Sound Money thread and learn how to be free and prosperous. Thank you.
http://911falseflagarchive.blogspot.com/2010/03/dr-alan-sabrosky-former-director-of_19.html
http://iamthewitness.com/books/Albert.D.Pastore/Stranger.than.fiction.htm
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Those building the community center did not murder anyone. Are you really hateful enough to blame all Muslims for the actions of a few extremists? If you are than you are as extremist as the terrorists.
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The problem with this is that if we give Muslims with the intention of being agressive and intrusive the right to place this mosque at ground zero we open up other doors and allow them to reach their ultimate goal and that is to make the U.S. into an Islamic Theocracy that imposes Shriah Law
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Hi Gabriel,
Suppose you are right, what is wrong with applying the Shariah Law in the US? Let’s see:
1. If we apply the Shariah Law, then we will cut off the hands of all the banksters who stole our nation. I think I like to see that.
2. If we apply the Shariah Law, then we will crucify all the warlords and drug lords who killed our young troops for profiteer war which only served the interest of the banksters and the oil dynasty
3. If we apply the Shariah Law, there would be no liquor store and no drunken driving and way less accidents and innocent people dying
4. If we apply the Shariah Law, we would make it a human right that every citizen is fed, housed, treated, and educated, and in some schools of thought, even married if they like to be married.
5. If we apply the Shariah Law, people would have to pay only 2.5% tax of the extra money they have beyond their needs not 40% as we do in America between income tax, property tax, sales tax, and you name it.
6. If we apply the Shariah Law, there would be no sexual transmitted diseases as everyone would have a loyal partner and we could save a whole lot of money on medical services that gets paid off taxpayer money.
7. If we apply the Shariah Law, there would be no racism and social class as everyone in Islam is valued equally and the best of all people is the one with most virtues.
Besides, do not worry my friend that is not going to happen soon because most of us are our worst enemy so the “Muslim enemy” is not needed. Furthermore, our great leaders will make sure that we are all put to death before we convert over to Islam! Maybe they will carry out a nuclear 911 next time instead!
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Yeah or we could just adopt communism wouldn’t that be nice?
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Gabriel,
Adopt anything you want. This is what this country is all about, as long as you do not push your way onto others. Live and let live is the spirit of our Constitution. Muslims are not our enemy and by the way they did not do 911. If you are smart enough, turn off your TV and do your homework. You will be surprised who did it. Just do not let others demoralize you and call you names like crazy, paranoia, conspiracy theorist, and all others. Be yourself and make a vow to God if you believe in one. Make a vow that you will sincerely look for the truth and ask God to help you find it. Do not ask the CNN, the BBC, the FOX or any other news agency. They are all sold out and they have a boss that does not work for your interest. The problem with this ground zero hoax is not that we found an occasion to express our different religious sentiments. The problem Gabriel is that someone wants us to waste our time, energy, and divide our collective will over something that should be the last of our concern. We are a nation that has been ripped off from inside by our bankers, our bureaucrats, and our corporate elite and we have no life that is worthy of living anymore. Good jobs are rare, foreclosures are skyrocketing, our dollar is losing value all over the globe, and our young troops keep on dying every day for no end in sight. Elections do not mean a crap anymore. We only have a choice between dumb and dumber. Our liberty is being taken away slowly but surely. Our life and liberty is endangered more than rare species are. We have no hope, no future, and no course as far as we could see. It is up to us to figure out a way out of this madness or get ourselves busy arguing over whose religion is right and who should rule. End.
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You seriously believe allowing the building of a community center there will bring an Islamic Theocracy. Just how dumb are you? We have more to fear from our Religious Right. The want to impose a Theocracy and impose Old Testement Law. A Theocracy of any faith is unAmerican.
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I agree with Thomas Jefferson’s sentiment – my neighbor should be free to worship whom and how he wishes, if at all. I also agree with Benjamin Franklin who reminded Mr. Jefferson that one’s rights end at the tip of my nose! Once you’ve touched me, you’ve gone beyond your rights, and I believe using the property to build a mosque is an affront to my beliefs, and therefore I respectfully argue that even property rights are subject to imminent domain, and if the city of New York won’t act to prohibit religious buildings in the area then they deserve what they get. I just wonder how successful such a contriversal locale would be.
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The argument supporting property rights for the mosque near Ground Zero are ridiculous. If SEIU supporters broke in and murdered his wife and grandchildren, would he want a new SEIU local headquarters to be built just 4 blocks from his home?
There is a difference between “Rights” and doing what is Right. And without casting aspersions on a whole religion, I DO understand that extremists from the Muslim community killed 3,000 people, many of them Americans, and I am very sensitive about that. It is for that reason that I would urge local people to change the zoning laws around Ground Zero to disallow ANY mosque, Islamic Community Center or other Muslim gathering place.
Is this unfair? Not if local zoning laws are changed. The motives are emotional, but it’s no different than disallowing putting a home, a strip club or a church on the site would be.
I know most Muslims are regular people, like me. But referring to the Muslim victory over Cordoba, Spain – where, like many other Muslim victory sites, they built a mosque – leaves one to question the motivation of this, and I for one do not support this particular use of the property rights of the owner. But I will support it if the current laws do not outlaw it.
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There is no difference between “right” and what is right except inside your own head. “Right” was derived from what is right to do smarty. If we are going to double talk each other, we will dilute our Constitution and we might as well have none. Tolerance is not doing what you like to do; tolerance is doing the right thing which may not be what you like to do. Democracy does not mean that you agree with mainstream voice. It only means that you respect it and yield to it. In your personal life, you are free to love and hate whomever you want, but you are not free to harm the interest of others just because you do not like them. If everyone will take your approach, we would have endless wars and we will never prosper. Wake up Mr. and go do something that will benefit you and your nation. I challenge you to find a way out of our ailing economy. Take that as some homework. Take it as challenge if you like.
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In the Words of Thomas Jefferson, “It does me no injury if my neighbor worships 20 gods or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.” Muslims worship one God.
I’m Muslim, and congressman Ron Paul, I think you’ve got my vote for president in 2012.
Highly rated. What do you think?
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I strongly agree with Ron Paul’s stance. It’s unfortunate that his son Rand doesn’t see the light.
“Last time I checked, our religious freedoms weren’t dependent on the sensitivity of our words or actions.”
- http://www.postmodernist.us/2010/09/selectivity-of-freedom.html
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@Jack Ryan: What a giant crock of shit!
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Ron Paul is the only one out there (republican) who truly adheres to the constitution.
Highly rated. What do you think?
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Islam is, of course, a violent and dangerous religion because they follow the founder of the religion who forced conversions by the point of the sword. This religion has caused trouble all over the world and continues to do so. Where is a free Islamic nation? Where is a tolerant Islamic nation? Show me a prosperous Islamic nation?
The very nature of Europe is quickly being changed. Western civilization is slowly dieing there and the population is being replaced with Muslims.
Although a lot of evil has been done in the name of Christ the people who have do not follow the teachings of the Bible such, ” as love your enemies” , “turn the other cheek” , “forgive those who harm you”. However when the Muslim does violence he is just following the dictates of Mohammad . Look into your heart and you will realize what I say is true.
Hotly debated. What do you think?
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Seth,
I am afraid that if you look into your own heart that you will find no truth in it. Islam did not spread by the sword. I must say that you are one of that Indian Sikh who resent Islam going into their peninsula. If you know enough about how Islam got into your nation, you will know that it came to you through merchants who demonstrated the highest of trade ethics mankind ever knew, unlike the Portuguese and Spaniard pyrites who robbed your spices, burned your unarmed ships and killed you on board instead of paying for your merchandize. Islam itself is not a violent religion but it can be if the tyrants of the nations stop its message from reaching the public. Muslims believe that every human being has a divine right to have access to liberty and choice instead of being ruled by kings and queens who see themselves as the rightful owners of the people and the planet. Islam never hangs its sword on your neck if you do not want to be a Muslim, but if there is a king out there that is preventing you from exercising your freedom of choice to be whoever you want to be, then you better believe it, Islam becomes very violent against that king. Do you get that? This must be true of all libertarian ideologies that need to have access to the people. No political structure has the right to limit the freedom of choice of the people. Look in Iran for instance, Iran being the next target of our military strike the real reason behind this demagoguery, Iran allows Jews and Christians to have their liquor stores and allow them to drink in public, but it makes same a legal violation on the ones who profess to be Muslims. I see that as striking evidence against what you are perpetuating here. I am not aware of any country in the world that it makes legal exceptions for its minorities. That I call true tolerance in its hardest core. STOP spreading lies and get to work. Join our effort to free this nation form the real enemy which lives right here in inside our borders. You are the next target of that enemy. Your livelihood, your future, your safety, your health, your savings, even your children are all in immanent danger. Wake up, wise up and channel out your energy in something that is good for you and your nation.
Hotly debated. What do you think?
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Barbary Pirates?
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YES Barbary pirates, NOT Islam. Besides, I have learned that the Barbary pirates revolt was a reaction to the moors expulsion from Spain after the conquest of Granada by the Catholic sovereigns of Spain in 1492 drove many Moors into exile. They retaliated by piratical attacks on the Spanish coast. Two wrongs never make right, but what is your point? Are we going to dwell on the acts of some men in the past to blame a whole belief system? There is so much to quotes and so much to sadly remember. The Western Expansion wiped out 20 million Native Indians and was responsible for the disappearance of 50 million blacks from Africa. WWI and WWII took out close to 80 millions dead not to count the injured. Are we to blame Christianity, Judaism, or Islam for them? Even the Crusades which are known as Christian wars can not blame Christianity for it. It was the master work of materialism, greed, and political ambitions of the wicked papacy in Europe. I still do not get what you are folks arguing about on this thread. You want to kill all Muslims, go take your chances. You are a bunch of losers as you watch your nation burn and you dance around the fire. Go fix your ailing economy. Go stop your leaders from selling you out to private interest. Go reclaim the bailouts that stole your wealth and poured it in the pockets of the rich criminal elite. Go call your young troops home before more are dead for nothing. Go stop your local governments from shutting down more of your public schools and libraries. Go figure out a solution for your deadly unemployment and foreclosure. Go have a life.
Highly rated. What do you think?
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Another contrived “crises” the administration is using to DISTRACT us from the real issues.
Remember, “never let a crises go to waste”
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Bingo Citizen;
Ron Paul has said as much, i’ve said as much, and you’ve said so as well.
LOL now watch the number of positive hits on your post start climbing over the next few days, people are listening and they ain’t as dumb as the banks and “their” politicians think they are
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Hi David,
Actually one big thumb came from me to Citizen this time, but I could not just stick my thumb too high because it went up through the ceiling. LOL. Right on Citizen. We need to keep up the good work my friend.
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Hi David,
If you get this message, could you tell me why I no longer have access to Sound Money thread? I can access other threads just fine, but not Sound Money! Something weird going on?
TS
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I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.
Mohandas Gandhi
Highly rated. What do you think?
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“Neo Conservatives” Explained
This is in response to Author Carlos Aguilar who comments:
“When you use the term Neo-Con the true Neo-Con does not take it as a pejorative. We consider it a compliment”
For those who do not know who are what “Neo Con”, “Neo Conservatives” are – I suggest you read up from some informer sources, from different perspectives as the New Conservatives were considered THE DOMINANT POWER in the Clinton/Bush Jr. Administrations.
The Neo Conservatives were considered the dominant political/intellectual power of this time, responsible for directing American foreign policy – the war in Iraq, American immigration policy – open borders immigration and well, most everything else.
As Neo Conservatism was and is a Jewish political/intellectual movement – understand that this subject is heavily influenced by issues regarding what is and isn’t good for the Jews and how Gentiles view the Jews.
Here are some excellent links explaining Neo Conservatism:
Thinking About Neo Conservatism – K Macdonald
http://www.vdare.com/macdonald/030918_neoconservatism.htm
Neoconservatism and paleoconservatism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoconservatism_and_paleoconservatism
Whose War? PDF
A neoconservative clique seeks to ensnare our country in a series of wars that are not in America’s interest.
BY PATRICK J. BUCHANAN
http://www.amconmag.com/article/2003/mar/24/00007/
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While Europe was in the midst of darkness, it was the Muslims, spurred on by the light of their new Deen who picked up the torch of scholarship and science. It was the Muslims who preserved the knowledge of antiquity, elaborated upon it, and finally, passed it on to Europe.
Although every peoples earn what they do and pass on, it is important for us to learn about and appreciate the contributions of the Islamic civilization by the early Muslims.
Abul Hasan is distinguished as the inventor of the Telescope, which he described to be a “Tube, to the extremities of which were attached diopters”.
The Pendulum was invented by Ibn Yunus, a genius in science who lived in the reign of Aziz Billah and Hakim bi-Amr-illah, the Fatimid monarchs of Egypt. The invention of the Pendulum led to the measurement of time by its oscillations.
The first watch was made by Kutbi, a renowned watch-maker of his time. During the Abbasid reign the use of a watch became quite common and the famous Harun-ar-Rashid once despatched a watch as a gift to his celebrated contemporary, the French Emperor Charlemagne.
The invention of Mariners Compass, which revolutionised sea borne commerce and oceanic shipping and enabled the Arabs to roam over the stormy seas in quest of new lands and additional markets for their commodities, is essentially a contribution of the Muslims to the world of science.
Mir Fatehullah Khan is known to history as the inventor of gun and gunpowder. The presumption that gunpowder was first made by the Chinese does not stand the test of historical research.
The credit for manufacturing soap goes to Arab chemists, who introduced it to the world. The first paper in Islamic countries was manufactured in 794 A.D. in Baghdad by Yusuf Bin Omar. The paper manufactured in Arab countries was of superior quality than that made in Europe.
Chemistry as a science is unquestionably the invention of the Muslims. It is one of the sciences in which Muslims have made the greatest contribution and developed it to such a high degree of perfection that they were considered authorities in this science until the end of the 17th century A. D.
The Arabs who were more realistic and practical in their approach adopted the experimental method to harness scientific knowledge. Observation and experiment formed the vehicle of their scientific pursuits, hence they gave a new outlook to science of which the world had been totally unaware. Their achievements in the field of experimental science added a golden chapter to the annals of scientific knowledge and opened a new vista for the growth of modern sciences.
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David A. Morse,
AMEN to that! Thanks for pointing out all good credit that goes back to the Arabs and Muslims which has been forgotten like the rubble of 911 that was shipped out to China for disposal before the evidence was examined! It is amazing how we are taught to read “history” which is nothing but “his story!” It all depends on “him” and what he wants us to know. It is this history David that you pointed out that the community of the mosque in NY has been claiming to promote and wanted to share with the Americans so new and fresh bridges of understanding and mutual respect would replace the wave of hatred which dominated our sentiments during the past and the present exacerbated by the sad and unfortunate event of 911. What I insist on in all my posts is go and find the truth about 911 goddamn it! If you want to be an intolerant hard A**, do not be a fool either. The Mossad left its fingerprints all over 911 and lines of serious investigations into the truth have been assassinated by the head of the Homeland Security Department who happened to be the rabbi Zionist, Michael Chertoff. Please go ahead and google the bastard and his family generations’ long connection to Israel and Zionism. He has a dual citizenship and he has served in our highest office to guard our national security! What the hell is wrong with us? We just can not say it loud enough that the Neo-Cons-Israel INC. did 911. Rewind the early hours of 911 and see how Bush the innocent devil reacted to 911, see how the mainstream media already cooked up a story and a theory about the fall of the towers for the public! It is totally disgusting and sickening to watch the murderers—the serial killers speak with authority about 911 when the public was in utter shock and owe and no one besides the conspirators knew the truth! I am so outraged that some one with the help of a huge crowd of idiots wants us to believe the lie of 911 again and wants to milk it out more and as if Iraq and Afghanistan and the Gaza massacre was not enough reward for the perpetrators of 911. Let the whole world know that we do not believe the lie, we demand investigation conducted by the public about 911, and we hold the perpetrators responsible until the end of time. God and truth is on our side. Our hearts go to the victims whose lives were not worth oil money to the murderers who got away with murder. We will get them sooner or later. Death and destruction to all of them with no exceptions!
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Please let me say from the beginning I support Mr Paul and my question is an honest one. You said, “The House Speaker is now treading on a slippery slope by demanding a Congressional investigation to find out just who is funding the mosque—a bold rejection of property rights, 1st Amendment rights, and the Rule of Law—in order to look tough against Islam.” My question is, would it not be a form of treason if funding for the Mosque was coming from self proclaimed enemies of America? Again, this is a honest question. I do defend the right for the Mosque to be built anywhere, including near the ground zero. I also think it is the right of American citizens to speak up if they do or don’t want it there. I also think the country would benefit from a serious, deep look as Islam. There is much rhetoric about radical or moderate Islam. Those who use such descriptions have clearly not read the Koran. I do not say this because I believe the rights of Muslims ought to be limited, I say it because regardless of our first amendment rights, we ought to know what we are talking about. Thank you for any response in regards to my question.
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Hi Principle Over Party,
I like your name and I try to adhere to that philosophy. As for your reference to the Koran, I know what you referring to. The verses on the Koran which urges the Muslims (believers) to fight firmly against the disbelievers (deniers of the truth) has always been a subject of misunderstanding and confusion even among Muslims themselves. My understanding is that a true Muslim is one with soft heart and compassion who is too busy in self-purification and charity work that he/she has no thought of violence against others albeit someone who is antagonist to the faith of Islam. Due to this peaceful nature of Islam, true followers develop this natural lag to physical and combat response which sometimes becomes a necessity with any group of people to protect the welfare of its society. Every nation on earth including ours understands that there could be a time when a man has to stand up in defense of his principles and nation. Muslims are no exception to this rule. When someone attacks them or threaten their security, they have the natural right to fight back. With someone who much resembles a hermit and a saint in his lifestyle too busy giving thanks to the Mighty God, he is in need to be urged not to let his peaceful nature takes over him at a time when fighting becomes a necessity. That is the right perspective to understand the Koranic verses which call the Muslims to fight the enemy. Another pillar of this subject is the question of who constitutes an “enemy.” Not everyone that does not want to believe in Islam is an enemy of Islam.
“Allah forbids you not to treat kindly and deal justly those who have neither fought you in the matter of religion, nor driven you out of your homes. Indeed Allah loves the just.”
Sura al-Mumtahanah 60, verse 8
This is the main principle that governs the relationship between Muslims and non-Muslims. It is unfortunate fact that those who spread the propaganda about Islam being a religion of violence expects Muslims and possibly any religious belief system adherents to turn into wimps and turn the other cheek. Even if turning the other cheek were a matter of individual modesty, it should not allow for passive response to aggression when the whole nation or society is under attack. Have there been incidents in the Islamic history where misunderstanding of this principle led to unpleasant conflict between civilization? Probably yes, but the conduct of people is not binding on the religion itself or its doctrine. In our modern times, when Muslims were colonialized by our Western expansion, attacked, and their national wealth unjustly robbed or disposed of, the aggressors spread the propaganda that fighting back was an aggressive and violent tenant of Islam itself rather than natural and justified reaction to aggression.
All I want to say on this point is: it does not matter who we are talking about, when some one is threatened or attacked, they naturally have the right to respond and vindicate themselves of that aggression. Instead of dehumanizing the victim, we should dehumanize the victimizer. I think that is fair enough.
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Principle Over Party,
Civil debate over any issue is never a bad idea, but the timing and the context of such debate can make all the difference in the world. My question and concern is WHY NOW? If we stop being naive and realize that this is a demagoguery just like Ron Paul described it, we would all refrain from the debate until we fix our nagging problems. Right now, our major problems are economy, exploitive and criminal profiteer war which is killing scores of our young troops every day. We are not to be treated like idiots that know nothing about dirty politics. We are sick and tired of being fooled and exploited. We are the sovereign, not our government. In fact they are the servants and they are there to serve our best interest, not to be our true enemy unfortunately. When they took us to war in Afghanistan, it was to capture Bin Laden and his group. Guess what? Bin Laden has been dead since December 2001 and his group can all be corned in one single cave and bombed the hell out of. We have been there for over 8 years and we have greatly outnumbered them, so with our technology and military might, we could not bring them to justice! C’mon we are not that stupid. Besides, Bin Laden and the Taliban did not do it. It was an inside job with the help of the Mossad. Why our intelligence community is not willing to honor that line of investigation? What does it have to hide when about 200 Israeli Mossad and ex-military demolition experts were arrested by the police and the FBI during the period of 911? Why all suspect Israelis were quietly deported and the investigations ended before it started? Beats the hell out of me. Then we went to Iraq for WMD, and it turned out Iraq did not have them. Duh! With our satellite systems that could see a Russian president watering his flowers in his backyard with a great clarity, we could not spot WMD even after our troops sacked the whole country! Then we came out and admitted that it was a mistake but a good one nevertheless! Paul O’Neil came out too and told us that the war in Iraq and Afghanistan was cooked up years before 911 and we were just waiting for the right moment to sell our nation the war! Saddam hated the guts of Bin Laden and both could have not agreed on fixing a flat tire that it needed to be fixed, are both implicated in 911 and we are supposed to buy into that entire BS! This is pure insult to our intelligence, sovereignty, and liberty. Not only the cost is our ailing economy, but also the cost is our young troops that should be in college now preparing for a good life ahead of them, not serving the oil dynasty and the strategic class that waste our national resources and our precious defense capabilities. We have no enemy but our treasonous politicians who need some one to stop them now and before it is too late.
This is what is wrong with this debate NOW. Would you discuss food recipes at your mother’s funeral? That is tasteless and morally wrong. Sorry but our reality is even more embarrassing than this metaphore.
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Carlos,
Thanks for the compliment. That’s all I need to hear from you: that I need professional help. That’s all you can come up with on your journey for the truth. I made my point and therefore, I rest my case.
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TruthSeeker, You are correct. Those like Jack Ryan and Glenn Beck do not love the America the Founders created with the First Amendment. They love the America they create in their own mind. In their America, only white Europeans need come to our country. And where only a white man should be President. Its an America where firemen are ordered to allow YOUR house to burn unless you pay a fee for fire service. Its a nation where we allow people to die because its not our concern, where its every person for themselves.
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The first amendment of our Constitution states: “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof”. This is not only a guarantee to freedom of religion, but also a guarantee of freedom from religion. Almost every religion which has existed in the course of human history, including many of the common abortions of Christianity, in direct conflict with what they claim to believe, has practiced mass genocide at some point or another on order to try and establish itself as the only religion with absolute power over everyone and they are all guilty. So, not so much different from America’s banking system or any of the other crazed lunatics seeking absolute power and control over everyone else. It’s all just different clods of sh*t which have come out the back end of the same goose. The Constitution while guaranteeing the free exercise of religion, with the same words also prohibits any exercise of any religion against those who don’t agree with it and i think that this is the more important function.
Thomas Jefferson stated: “I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies … If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around [the banks] will deprive the people of all property until their children wake-up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered. The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people, to whom it properly belongs.”
We currently have over 65,000,000 homes in America facing bank foreclosure which based on an average of only 2 people per home would mean that almost 1/2 of the American population is currently in danger of being put out on the street. The reason they are in danger of being put out on the street is that Banks have willfully and deliberately created an artificial shortage of our basic means of trade shutting down our useful production while we still have it within our hands to create and abundance beyond imagination, in order to buy absolute power and ownership over our country and its population for themselves. The reason all of these homes have mortgages in the first place is that even when we had an economy in America, banks still consumed 5/6ths of the average persons productive effort making them dependent on them in order to have the things they need, and now they’ve taken away the last 1/6ths people needed just to survive. Why are we still arguing religion when the common enemy is one who victimizes Christian, Moslem, Jew, Hindu, Bhuddist, Wicca, Athiest, Agnostic, or whatever the hell else anyone wishes to belong to, believe in, or call themselves, equally and across the board ?
Who is your enemy ? It sure as hell isn’t anyone else’s religion. The United States Constitution put an end to that over 200 years ago, nor does it allow for your religion to be an enemy to anyone else either.
What should all members of every religion in America be putting their efforts into now ? Destroying our common enemy, the enemy of us all.
http://www.ronpaul.com/on-the-issues/fiat-money-inflation-federal-reserve/comment-page-21/#comment-126876
Come help us do it people, this will work if each and every one of us tries. Our common enemy will be destroyed and you will have my love and everyone else’s love for your participation in the effort. Christian, Moslem, Jew, Hindu, Bhuddist, Wicca, Athiest, Agnostic and whatever or whoever else might be out there alike. We will all benefit from this, all the same, all 350,000,000 of us.
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