Ron Paul: Don’t allow the Fed to destroy our money!




A Spooked Economy in October

by Ron Paul

Last week we received worse than expected unemployment numbers, challenging recent claims that the recession has come and gone. Also, as the economy continues to suffer the after effects of the Federal Reserve-created bubbles of the last decade, there is renewed interest in gold. Fears that the Federal Reserve will pump even more money into the system had caused the price of gold to reach new highs. Also contributing to enthusiasm for gold is continued instability in the banking industry, symbolized this week by fraud allegations that have caused many banks to halt foreclosure proceedings, thus further destabilizing the housing market. Yes, October has a reputation for being a scary month economically and this month is shaping up to be frightening, as well.

The Fed has been wreaking havoc and devaluing our monetary unit steadily since 1913, and greatly accelerating it since the collapse of the Bretton Woods agreement in the 1970s. This severing of the dollar’s last tenuous link with gold allowed the Fed to create as much new money as it pleased, and it has taken full advantage of this opportunity.

In 1971, Gross Domestic Product (GDP) was $1.29 trillion. Today it is $14.6 trillion, nominally. But adjusted for all the inflating the Fed has been doing, it is only $2.73 trillion, which constitutes only a 1% real increase per year! So with all this extra money going around, we may appear nominally wealthier, but the reality is, we have barely moved at all. This is unfortunate especially for the prudent, conscientious savers, whose nest eggs are constantly being devalued. Unless of course, they have saved in something out of the Fed’s reach, like gold. While the economy has basically been in a holding pattern against the leeching of wealth by the Fed for 39 years, gold has seen an inflation adjusted increase in value of over 5% per year, if measured in 1971 dollars. This is due to the Fed’s ability to make dollars plentiful. And yet, this is the only tactic the Fed can come up with to rescue an economy already devastated by “quantitative easing”, as they call it.

The turmoil in the housing market demonstrates how disastrous it is to flood the economy with fiat money. Latest events with foreclosures are good examples of mistakes made in the market, in this case, by the banks, in the rush to soak up manipulated currency. This is why the truly free market depends on sound, honest money, free from false signals of artificially low interest rates.

The government finds ways to spend money even faster than the Fed can create it, bringing our national debt well past the point of the taxpayers ever being able to pay it off. Other nations who, in the past, have eagerly bought up any amount of debt we produced are now starting to resist. We are reaching a crucial point at which the dollar will no longer function, and in the absence of a functioning dollar, restoring sound money will be the only alternative.

The truly scary notion is that those in power might allow our system to collapse so chaotically to the detriment of so many people rather than simply obey the Constitution.

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399 Comments:

  1. Citizen,

    You continue to over-preach your defense of gold currency, banks, and interest. Unless you bring new arguments, I am afraid that re-hashing your old argument will not do it. I hate for you in as much I hate for myself to go through the agony of converting over someone who is not convertible. I appreciate your zeal about your convictions which apparently you strongly believe in, but man there is no point in beating the dead horse.

    I have few questions for you I would like you to think about:

    1. If banks were such a great idea, how come they fell out and had to ask help from the public money (bailout) or as I call it daylight robbery?

    2. If the interest business which is the main operation of banks (abusing and exploiting deposits of innocent consumers, amplifying it through Fractional Reserve practice, and loaning it irresponsibly to other consumers) were such a great benevolence, then why our economy did not pick up? In fact, it has been going in the hole without hope in sight, and we can not even figure out a solution. And please do not tell me that just replacing the treasury notes with gold coin is going to magically solve the problem unless you want to treat me like a kindergarten child. I even argued this point with David before whom I agree most with on this forum. Although I highly respect his views, I still feel like standing in a blind spot when the subject of Sound Money presented as an ultimate solution of our problems. I already argued that without a great deal of reform that must go along with Currency Reform, it will not work the way we would like it to work. Definitely it will help, but we will deal with the same issues that we have been dealing with for a long time such as unemployment, social injustice, monopoly, prohibitive education and healthcare cost, just to name few. So our situation is already too complicated my friend.

    Financial Capitalism v. Industrial Capitalism: even if your model ideas are trouble free, the essence of it is based on financial capitalism which is the reason why we are behind China and Japan in productivity while we continue to borrow money from them! If our financial capitalism were such a success, then why the hell we continue to trail behind them?

    What we need Citizen Brother is a chance for everyone to be educated, to be healthy, and to use their maximum potential whether they happen to be employed or self-employed. This will never happen unless there is an opportunity. With this caste system which keeps the poor poorer and the rich richer, there is no hope of any change. Unless we make education of a high quality, skilled job training, sound health care, and venture money for small businesses and new technology, we will never accomplish anything regardless of what currency we use. The gold standard will only help the ones who already have gold or able to own gold. It is no good for Joe Blow who has been unemployed for years, and has been living in the basement of his mother. Enough is enough guys. We need to stop being tunnel vision-ed focused on trivial issues with rehashed debate. Let’s agree on one thing that we can see as progressive and work on it collectively. I am afraid we are wasting out time in barren debate.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yI3ueFy1N4E

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4lgQVMCcwM

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    • TS,

      Take a moment or two to read my arguments in the two part post below. Try to find a single concept I mentioned to challenge. I don't want to hear broad brush stroke condemnations of "the banking Rothschild elite." Actually consider my position point by point and tell me where I went wrong.

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    • Hello TS,

      Its not good to "hate", it just give you indigestion.
      You Answer follows...

      #1 Banks and "daylight robbery".
      Yes that's what you get when you marry crooked politicians with crooked bankers. The FED is just what Ron Paul is telling us that needs to be STOPPED! Whenever you give politicians the keys to the vault of public currency, they become Rock Starts and trash the economy. Drunk reckless spending with "out of thin air" money is underwritten by the FED, who monetizes the Federal Debt which DILUTES OUR collective wealth.
      TARP, is simply a massive bailout of SOCIAL spending plans gone horribly wrong. Our government sponsored Free Home Loans for 15 years estimated to be 4 Trillion Dollars given to people without jobs or income. Massive MAL-INVESTMENT, sponsored by our Government.

      #2 "such a great benevolence" NOT!!!
      Its a RUTHLESS business when our government engages in Fractional Reserve Banking and sponsor wealth destruction. It destroys private savings, devastates business investments and enriches only the Government and the select Elites with connections to the FED.
      YOUR RIGHT... gold is not the simpleton solution.
      But Sound Money means money not MANIPULATED by bureaucrats, diluted by government thieves operating under the charter guise of banks! The FED must be stopped, this is a FUNDAMENTAL "Change We Can Believe In"
      ALL economic theories go out the window when your government is hell bent on "daylight robbery"

      Capitalism is the Free Market engine of growth, it encourages people to invest their money in hopes of making more, it allows FORMATION of capital wealth.
      Socialism utilizes its favorite tool, "Fractional Reserve Central Banking" to REDISTRIBUTE the wealth of the citizens to favor the select ELITE. Banks are in bed with the political elite, thus it's essential to BREAK THE LINK, between the Banks and the Politicians.

      INTEREST is what retired people EARN on their SAVINGS, to live out their final years. It is not usury to pay them a reasonable return on a life time worth of savings. They saved it, and we can use it for growth for future generations.

      SAVINGS is both essential and critical to economic growth. It LIBERATES individual people from becoming captive slaves to other peoples hostile intentions. It FREES individual people from the slave wages of minimal payments jobs. Savings is OPPORTUNITY to take advantage of low ebb market conditions, it offers hope of future reward and benefit for CONSERVING ones energy.

      BUT when Government Social fiscal policy DILUTES the currency (inflation) it uses Fractional Reserve Banking, THE FED, to distribute its DILUTION CURRENCY POLITION.
      It DESTROYS the elderly's savings, making savings a worthless endeavor and encourages a Credit\Debt based culture... where we are today!

      Returning to a bullion based standard (gold/silver) tactically removes the governments ability to DILUTE the currency. That's why FDR confiscated the gold... he knew full well that a bullion based currency "Sound Money" could not be DEBASED as his PROGRESSIVE agenda required. Progressives don't want sound money, it ties their hands from SPREADING YOUR WEALTH, into other Congressionally Unauthorized spending schemes.
      I'm tired of letting Bawney Fwank and his Ultra-Liberal buddies fund their Social Agendas by stealing MY hard earned SAVINGS

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  2. David,

    This is the most productive thread I've participated in so far. I'm going to divide this post in to multiple posts because it is long, and I don't want it to get held for moderation. I have tried to make this as clear and concise as possible, I know people's time is valuable.

    I would like to demonstrate that whatever the definition one uses of inflation, referring to the concept of a change in purchasing power is too vague to be useful. Also, even though inflation and deflation are used incorrectly in the media, is critical that the precise definition be used. Finally I will touch on the idea of a shortage of purchasing power and booms and busts.

    I'm glad to see the Ford example went over well. We are definitely in agreement that the ultimate worthy goal is to increase productivity so that natural resources and labor can be combined to make finished goods as efficiently as possible. Being an engineer I'm sure you appreciate efficiency more than most.

    As an aside (which we really need not get in to), from a moral perspective I value an individual's freedom to make his own choices more than I value any collective measure of prosperity. If an individual wants to be lazy and unproductive that's his choice. If Larry Ellison had chosen to be lazy and unproductive we wouldn’t have had Oracle, and society would have been worse for it, but it is still his choice. Whether or not freedom and prosperity must go together is a separate debate, but I think they do.

    Regarding my knowledge of various economic schools of thought and terminology, I have had the opportunity to read a great number primary source documents from many schools of thought. As it happens I did not always hold the views I do now. The point I am making in referring to schools of economic thought is that these theories have a significant amount of theoretical backing. It is not sufficient just to say all "mainstream economics is wrong." While the schools share some basic building blocks, they are substantively very different. For any meaningful critique one must pick out specific aspects upon which the theories build, and show why they are wrong. This is why I have spent time reading all schools of thought, including MPE. And I have been very specific in critiquing the problems of MPE. I am demonstrating that certain building blocks of the theory are unsubstantiated, if not outright false.

    You're right that most people think only of a change in purchasing power of currency when they hear inflation/deflation (I/D). It doesn’t really matter what concept is called by what name, but in order to be precise and specific, I/D has been defined as the change in purchasing power that is directly the result of a change in the quantity of money. In economics it is important to isolate different causes and effects, and a change in purchasing power has a myriad of causes. Ceteris Paribus, meaning "all else equal" is commonly used. When referring to inflation or deflation, this must be the meaning intended. Calling any other phenomenon inflation would be to call an apple an orange.

    It is unfortunate that when one hears I/D in the media or in conversation the precise definition is not always what is meant. People do use inflation/deflation to refer to any change in purchasing power. Using it this way is problematic because a change in purchasing power is not specific. Purchasing power changes for many reasons and it is better to refer specifically to the cause of the change that is being considered. For example, here is one statement that describes three (or an infinite number of) very different events. "the purchasing power of my dollar relative to oranges has gone down." This could be because of winter snows in Florida. It could be because there is a new tax on oranges. It could be because the government has doubled the money supply. It could be because new evidence shows that oranges cure cancer, so now more people want to buy a limited supply of oranges forcing prices up. (it is also important to note that in every scenario except the magical increase in money, peoples lives are really affected) Therefore, if the word "inflation" is used, as it is in MPE, to refer to a change in the purchasing power, it is an impossibly vague statement that "the people must stop the inflation." Stop the winter snows in Florida? Reduce taxes on oranges? Make oranges not prevent cancer? Those scenarios can't all be what is meant.

    continued in next post....

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    • You can now understand my confusion concerning what MPE seeks to solve, or any theory that seeks to solve inflation as defined as a change in the purchasing power of the currency.

      Another important point to note is that the purchasing power of currency can change simultaneously in opposite directions for different goods. It can go down for oranges, and up for Model T's at the same time, or down or up for both but by different amounts. If on the other hand now every dollar magically gets doubled instantly ($20's become $40's, a $1 now reads $2), then the purchasing power would certainly move in the same direction for all goods simultaneously.

      Whether or not inflation were defined so precisely, it communicates little information to say that the purchasing power of currency has changed. That one of my primary objections to MPE. The language used is not precise enough to convey the intended meaning.

      Regarding a "shortage of currency":

      I will admit that the various schools of thought are divided on the issue of whether or not a shortage of currency is possible. The Keynesian, Classical, and Monetarist schools all believe that it is possible, but differ on what society should do to ensure it doesn’t take place. The Austrian theory (I believe conclusively) demonstrates that once a substance is available in sufficient quantity to be adopted by the people as currency, that there cannot be a shortage of it. As productivity increases, the value of every unit of the currency increases as well. For an in-depth look at why this is the case, Murray Rothbard's work "what has government done to our money?" is unmatched. If you find time, that is far and away the best introduction to Austrian Economics (on the subject of money) in my opinion.

      Regarding a "shortage of purchasing power":

      A shortage of purchasing power is a separate issue from a shortage of currency. I also don't believe a shortage of purchasing power is possible. Purchasing power is what it is for society based on technology, resources, intellectual innovation, organization etc. I would like to see purchasing power increase a million fold. But that takes time. Purchasing power has been increasing throughout history, and will continue to increase barring systemic natural events. There can never be a shortage, however, only not as much as we wish we had. I bought a one scoop ice cream cone. I wish I had two scoops but I was not able to be productive enough for my fellow man in order to earn the wage to buy two scoops. I don't have a shortage of ice cream, only not as much as I would like. Likewise I don't have a shortage of purchasing power, only not as much as I would like. I always want more purchasing power, but in order to get it I must be more productive.

      Finally, I would like to propose the reason why there appears to be a shortage of purchasing power relative to the productive capacity of society. The system responsible for it is fractional reserve banking. The entity responsible for it is the Federal Reserve. And the concept behind it is the misallocation of capital resources.

      As you mentioned there have been times in history where there has been what appeared to be "a shortage of purchasing power," Like the great depression. The current recession is another example. In these cases there are factories with the ability to produce goods that no one can buy, there are buildings that have space that no one can afford to rent. If only the people had more currency, the productive capacity of society could be benefitted from. This is only an illusion created by easy money (artificially cheap loans available.) Fractional Reserve banking and the Federal Reserve Bank are responsible for too much easy money. When the FED prints money and the banks loan it out to businesses, this sends the signal to businesses that there is a demand for long term investment. Capital is available for them to build more office buildings and more factories so that in the future they can produce more goods. The problem is that the capital resources are not actually there. People in society have not actually been able to save their resources to make the long term investments by businesses a good idea. The FED simply prints the money and loans it out. Therefore it is easy for businesses to get the wrong signals, and do too many long term investment projects. During this build up process as businesses increase capacity, life is good, this is the Boom phase. The Bust phase comes when the projects have been completed, and the businesses realize that people cannot afford what they produce. This is entirely because individuals did not save their resources to be able to buy goods in the future. If they had done so, there would be no bust because they would have the savings to buy the goods produced. Therefore it seems like society has a shortage of purchasing power but this is not true. It never had the purchasing power to be able to consume all the goods and services from the business investments. Capital resources were stolen from the people by the FED and the fractional reserve banks, and lent to businesses to produce goods that the people could never afford in the first place. Capital must be toiled for and actually saved and lent in order to insure no boom and bust cycle takes place, not simply fabricated out of thin air as is the case now.

      That was a lot to write, and I'm sure it is a lot to take in. I hope you are able to find specific concepts that I refer to that either you don't agree with or don't make sense. Please let me know what they are, as it helps me identify where I am not explaining things clearly.

      Thanks.

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      • Hi Daniels;

        It's good to hear back from you, unfortunately i'm in the middle of things here and was just checking on another post during a break. Lol i'm going to have to get back to a few things with the business here for the next few days, Have been putting in way more time than i could afford to in here for the last few so i apologize for the present.

        I just managed to download and listen to Montagne's audio presentation on MPE that jack posted on the weekend, http://www.zshare.net/audio/820088191e550288/ and found it absolutely fascinating, its a long presentation almost 4 hours worth, but it did present the hard evidentiary arguments as to what many of us have been discussing here as well, and i now have a clear understanding of his thoughts and line of thinking which aside from a few inconsequential differences in method of application are pretty much what most who have given independent thought to this issue have ended up concluding ourselves. Was actually amazed at the number of similarities in fact in view of the fact that i had not hear of MPE until a few weeks ago when Jack started posting on it here and that our discussions have been evolving completely independently of it until now. Anyway, it will probably take you awhile to find the time to listen to it as it did me, but when you can do, and let us know what you think. I know for a fact that once you find the time to listen to it you will find it absolutely fascinating.

        You take care and i'll try to get back on here over the weekend sometime :)

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      • Hi Daniels;

        Okay i finally have a little time here. First, in terms of the specific inflation that MPE refers to, its obviously the definition i provided which i was using in my previous discussion, which is decrease in value relative to all that it is designed to trade for. In terms of economic systems this would seem to be the only relevant definition as well as all other forms will fluctuate beyond anyone's control.

        Again, just as TS said in one of his posts to you, it is up to Mike to defend MPE, but i think i finally have a fairly good understanding of it, and all that it is, is a method of eliminating exactly the problem you state in your second post here, and provides a system of calculation which would at least come close to regulating the amount of currency in circulation according to the actual value of the goods and services it exists to trade for, and this would seem to be the single and only thing which could possibly establish a stable value for it.

        Re: your second post here. As i said in a recent post to Citizen on the matter, the problems you are describing do of course occur just as you say under the present system, but i don't see any solutions being proposed which would actually rectify them.

        We can either treat money as a religion and a philosophy, expect it to evolve like an entity doing absolutely nothing in order to manage it and make it beneficial to us, in which case our productive efforts will always be consumed by those wishing to use it to exploit the productive efforts of the rest, and in which case one can spend years trying to study and learn its function as such and still not come up with any viable solutions toward actually making it function. Case in point is Citizens complete and abject failure to demonstrate how under Austrian terms how the Rothschilds could simply not match our circulation of hard currency with theirs and in 10 years at 10 % interest consume all of our hard currency as well. He tried at one point, but all he could do is try to feed us a bunch of gibberish to impress us with his knowledge without providing any tangible explanation of anything which would prevent this from happening.

        If on the other hand, we simply throw everything we currently think is known and studied about money out the window, disregard the religion and philosophy, forget about money as an evolving entity and consider it a tool instead. Once it is a tool, then we can, using simple science and calculation, willfully and deliberately create and manage it in order to make it perform its only useful function, which is to facilitate trade of the useful things we can accomplish for each other, to the greatest extent that we possibly can. Then our prosperity is contingent simply and only on what we can do, can be maintained and increased with stability and consistency according to what we are physically capable of doing as opposed to having that productive effort restricted by money. Again to accomplish this means that this tool has to be created and administered as a public service as opposed to a business so that it actually can function efficiently and adequately to facilitate private trade and production to the greatest extent possible. Simple common sense dictates that the two must be mutually exclusive if either is to work. In such a case, any extensive economic study becomes redundant as the system would be simple enough for most children to understand, and in fact these are often the ones to whom the sheer stupidity of the current banking economy is most apparent once its illustrated as they have not yet become "educated" into thinking it can work.

        In terms of any form of banking and interest, Jefferson already stated the inevitable conclusion of it "the banks and corporations that will grow up around will deprive the people of all property until their children wake-up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered."

        Interest consumes the populations productive effort by consuming its means of trade + banks use that interest in order to progressively buy up ownership of the public corporations they sponsor, using control they establish over government though their control of the means of trade to progressively eliminate independent business in competition, and end up controlling all trade and production as well = Complete, total and absolute power for banks with 100 % of the wealth resting with them and absolutely none in the hands of the population.

        As an immigrant from one of the many places which has experienced the final result of this, i can promise you that there is absolutely on other possible conclusion to this as long as this is tolerated, and there is absolutely no amount of knowledge, education or theory of any form of economics involving banking which will ever change this as well.

        In terms of my present take on MPE, from what i've seen of it so far, it simply provides one viable method of calculation currency circulation VS capacity for the population to provide useful benefits of which there would be several alternatives as well. It does have the two basic concepts on making an economy function absolutely correct, but i'm not seeing anything beyond this simple calculation yet toward managing other aspects of this economy, so we'll see what develops from this point on. There can be no such thing as a perfect economy, and unfortunately the name of the model seems its own worst enemy in this case, but if the creation and management of an economies means of exchange is simply done on the basis of science, reason, common sense and calculation, and for the sole and exclusive benefit of the economy itself, as opposed to philosophy, evolution, economic religion and theory, then it can be made to work, and work very well. It has been done before, and when it has, it did, and is the only thing which can work too.

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        • Hi David,

          Thanks for responding to Daniels. I was hoping you do that, but with all honesty, how many times you have said what you just said? Why do we have to act like we are addressing deaf folks on this forum? If people do not read, understand, or better pretend that they never heard a response, or what constitutes a response to them, I think it is a waste of time and energy to keep rehashing responses to the same issues raised. While repetition can serve sometimes as a learning tool, in some circumstances it can be annoying and wasteful. With the exception of your comment on the MPE which you did not have to give any away because as I mentioned to Daniels that Mike rather should, you have said nothing new to Daniels. How many times you have said that we need to treat money as a function, not as a commodity in itself, and why you think we should do that, and what happened when we did not? I heard your argument a hundred times, so why can not Daniels? The answer is Daniels does not accept it. That's perfectly fine. That's why we have few billion people on this planet so that you could change faces, groups, and discussion forums as well when you do not like some. My suggestion to Daniels is to find another forum that is more compatible with his attitudes and thinking mode and experience the joy of utter agreement with others. I most often like to quote George Bernard Shaw who once said: "I never learned from a man I totally agree with." As for me, this forum did not seem as easy at first because like I said clearly I was not schooled in any economics. I am a mathematician that likes to think for himself and assess the truth of matters. So I care less what the Austrians, Keynesians, or Marxists says. I know enough about all of them and their moral philosophies, but I do not consider myself a "technician" in their fields. So far I disagree with much of their philosophies rather than their methods of arriving at things so the latter does not interest me as long as I have a trouble with the former. They all as you said many times over and over promote the banking industry which by all means has been nothing but parasitic. Daniels seems to want us convert over to accept banking as great and necessary in its own right. I did not, could not, and will not agree with Daniels or Daniels’ type. That is the end of our debate. Can Daniel finally accept this fact as well as other who try to do the same? Let's say it loud enough so everyone can hear it one more time: WE ARE ENEMY # 1 TO ALL BANKING ESTABLISMENTS. THE ONLY GOOD BANK IS A DEAD ONE! Is that clear enough? Until and unless someone show us how noble banks are or could be, this will remain as our position. End of debate.

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  3. Hi TS;

    This is absolutely brilliant, and you provide a clear and absolute definition of what any true form of currency really is according to its only useful function as opposed to the fiction of what it is pretended to be by those needing to turn an economy into a system of exploitation. Whether currency is true to its function or a means of exploitation depends simply and only on whether we simply use it as currency in order to facilitate the trade of the things it exists to trade for, or whether we allow it to be controlled and perverted into debt by thieves and scam artists in order to regulate the trade of these things in the interest of consuming the wealth of the country and population while contributing absolutely nothing of value to it. In other words Banks.

    The money itself is nothing, the money itself is worthless, the money itself is useless, even if its gold or silver, of absolutely no tangible value unless you melt them down and convert them into something of practical value. The money, real money can only represent value. The only value exists in the tangible goods and work that it represents. Its function is to enable me to build a tractor for the farmer when i don't need his grain and chickens. It enables the farmer to trade for what he needs from me and enables me to trade for what i need from someone else. It exists as the tool to regulate this exchange in a fair, just, orderly and efficient manner where the value of each exchange is naturally regulated by the value of the items exchanged to the people making the exchange themselves.

    This is not money as people understand it today, and no one alive today has ever experienced what they think is money as anything but a means of exploitation. The reason it exists as a means or exploitation is that thus far the people have failed to question and examine the lie created by those who need to exploit that the money itself has value. Their questioning now finally, all of them too. Christine has been advocating the abolition of money and i've been trying to explain this difference to her, and maybe this can help clarify this as well, but what we propose as a means of exchange becomes the very means toward facilitating the free abundant and absolutely unlimited exchange of everyone's useful effort with each other that she along with the rest of us wishes and regulating it in a completely fair, honest, just, and efficient manner in order to enable that exchange to exist and grow to the maximum possible extent of all of the wonderful things each of us is capable of creating to enhance the lives of the rest.

    The solution as you and i and so many others understand it, is simple beyond comprehension. Simply get rid of this ass backwards perversion of money and the parasites who have perverted and corrupted this concept and made money a means of exploitation, condemn and eliminate this practice so that it can never be made so again, and restore money to its true function so that its only function can be the means to exchange these useful benefits to everyone's benefit instead, with money serving absolutely no other function than to represent the value of those benefits exchanged.

    How do we accomplish this, change economic principle and management from religion, entity, philosophy, and theory to science so that we can actually make it perform its function. Who will accomplish this ? those of us who have the simple sense to just put the horse in front of the cart so that we can actually pull it, instead of spending their lives studying why the horse is behind and trying to figure out why we haven't gone anyplace LOL :)

    BTW, was over at the neighbors last night, guzzled 4 pots of coffee between 3 people LOL, still up since my last post and been tinkering in the CAD program since then. I finally downloaded Mike's audio broadcast and have been listening to it during this time. Its almost 4 hours long, but strongly suggest that if you haven't already, to try to find the time to download it and listen to it soon, you will definitely not regret having done so. Its absolutely amazing how absolutely everyone who has sense enough to put the cart in front of the horse arrives at exactly the same conclusions, and the more those conclusions are studied the greater the confirmation of the need to do so as well. Different terminology sometimes, maybe slightly different methods and thoughts toward hooking up the harness but always arriving at the same end, the horse has to go in front LOL :)

    BTW It takes a brilliant mind to just as you say, think, question, analyze and observe, and realize the very simple solutions to complex and seemingly insurmountable problems, and a just and courageous heart to act on these realizations, you have both !

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    • Hi David,

      So our motto from now on should be: STOP ABUSING WOMEN AND MONEY. Women on one hand were created to be mothers, sisters, and loyal wives, but through our evil and greed, we abused them and made them tools for our perverted libido and commercial greed in the name of liberating women and putting them on the pedestal which we never done anyway. As for money, we turned it from an innocent mean to facilitate trade and productivity to a means for unjust enrichment and exploitation. We turned the cow from a cow that we should drink its milk and eat its meat to a holy cow that we worship as a god. Simply stated. Makes me kinda laugh when I realize the parallelism between what the early Israelites did and what the Rothschild did. It must be in the genes! Oh God, someone will call me anti-Semitic soon if has not already!

      As for posting the DEMAND on the Petition Site, I have done so but I am not happy with the layout which keeps inserting strange markup characters inside the text. I am still trying to fix this technical problem. I may have to contact their technical assistance, but give me a free minute to do that. I am downloading Mike's broadcast now and will be listening to it today. Take care and get some rest if you could. I do not want you to become insomniac like me. It is not funny.

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      • TS,

        You lose credibility when you stray from the issues with ad-"ethnicitem" attacks. You, TS, are the one unwilling to think outside of the circle you are so concerned with the "greedy money lender." If you actually took time to read my posts you would see I am not defending our current mess of money lenders (banks). Seriously, read my posts and actually think about the concepts involved in the economics of money. Money does have value. Its existence creates value. It IS a commodoty. I won't re-explain it all, because I have done so very recently, but seriously, take the time to think about it. Step outside of your circle.

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        • Hi Daniels,

          I have read most of your posts but you tend to think that mere repetition of an argument gives such an argument a new force my friend. As for the international Jewish mafia causing all the mess we are in today, I have no apologies to offer for that. I have some great Jewish friends and by the way they are true Jews, not some colonial Zionists who see gentiles as two-legged beasts and they perfectly understand where I come from. I am by no means to all who know me a racist. In fact let me state one more fact. The Rothschild were not even Semite Jews; they were left-over ghetto residents of the Khazar tripe that were a mix of Mongols, Turks, and central Asians. Probably any one from a European decent had more chance to have had Semite blood in them than the Khazars. So let’s not even go in there because this was never our subject to start with anyway.

          Going back to your post about the precise definition of inflation/deflation, I appreciate some of the points you were making. Indeed, not all inflation is born equal. Regardless of what definition you chose for inflation, it is not all caused by the increase of the amount of money. That is understandable, but what is not is the kind that is a result of abusing the function as well as the management of money. When you first treat money as the exclusive creation of some segment in society which has total authority over its management as well, we will always have problems. Unexplained inflation and deflation can become a fair game that could be use to manipulate trade and productivity. When we say that the Federal Reserve just lowered the interest rate that is just a sad joke. Who gives them that authority to do so? And when they jack up the interest rate, who allows them to do so? But once again, where this power comes from? Well, if someone has the authority to create money from thin air, then I guess that same one also could do that. I meant we sadly allowed them to do that.

          As for the banking industry duplicating the FED in their money game, we ended up with the outrageous Fractional Reserve practice which is nothing but exact manifestation of the same philosophy: we meaning (them) have the power to breathe life into a fictitious entity and make it appear alive.

          Interest? Again it is the presumption that money can grow on its own without the investment of the human expression in it. Money as a means of facilitating trade and productivity picks up its value when such trade and productivity are incorporated into the money. Even if that money happens to be gold it should not be allowed to increase in value unless gold itself as a precious metal becomes more in demand, but not as currency! There is a huge difference between the two. If treasury notes are allowed to grow in value on its own and with the scratch of a pen from the FED and the banks, then why not you and me are allowed to do the same? You see the injustice? If they are allowed to create that money from thin air, why not you and me are allowed the same privilege? This master-slave society we all know is nothing but a big joke Daniels. We have dealt with it before, we know it does not work, and we more importantly know it is unfair. The reason I am against banks and interest is because it gives establishments some power that is not available to the normal little guy. Further, it encourages airhead bums to control our destiny while the hard working little guy like you and me never gets anywhere in life. Is that fair? When someone with a huge capital, God only knows where and how he got it from, is allowed to be on the top, while the orphan that inherited nothing but the ugly reputation of his parents is destined to be broke all his life making minimum wages although working too hard, I think that is clearly unfair. I hope that I am not repeating my thoughts.

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      • Hi Again TS;

        LOL well in regards to good use and abuse, in terms of my fiancee whom were hoping will be moving in around the end of this year, my purpose in loving her is to bring her happiness, and it's through her happiness that i accomplish the same for myself. She's such an absolute pleasure to do this for and its so easy as well as she loves and appreciates everything little thing so much. I simply could not imagine a more precious and wonderful girl, nor, to myself, a more beautiful one as well.

        Again, i am just so happy and thankful that we finally have such an array of so wonderfully talented people working on this now, and i think if we get this right, then we can finally and at long last create a means of trade to enable us all to do for each other economically what i enjoy doing for my girl in terms of our relationship :)

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        • Hi David,

          I wish you and your fiancee the best in your relationship. You are a good man and you deserve good things in life.

          Cheers,

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  4. Hi David,

    I had to go to sleep for few hours to get some rest and I am back up again. I missed your last post on time. First let me thank you again for thinking highly of me, but I really do not deserve much of that credit as the issues involved in this debate are very simple if you stop thinking schools of economics. If you just get out of that tiny circle and look at it from outside, you will see it as is---circle instead of seeing it all kinds of different geometries. As you persist to stay inside that circle, you will continue to see it as a curve, a straight line, or even a point if you are too close to it from the inside!

    The reason I am hesitant o get involved in the minutes of this debate is that people fail to take account of the very simple things which forms the foundation of this debate. In mathematics, unless you have the ability to doubt any proposition, you will never become a good mathematician. Asides from what we call axioms or definitions, everything must be proved or else it is good for nothing. My biggest problem with the current monetary system which I think makes the biggest lie and rip-off of all times is the simple fact that when the money is created out of thin air, it is worth nothing besides the paper and the ink it is printed on. So how in hell it picks up a value when it gets in our hand? That is the trick of the trade of the Rothschild dynasty, unless you are mindful of this fact, you will continue to spin in circles until you die without going anywhere. How can we put an end to the whole game of the Rothschild? Simply do not fall in the trap. Resist the notion that such treasury notes (worth nothing as it is made out of thin air) have any value in themselves whatsoever. Therefore, it should never be allowed any time value as some argue (interest.) Now you see why the good God prohibited usury! So as you said in many ways, stop placing the cart in front of the horse, stop thinking of money as a commodity that has an intrinsic value in itself. Once we do that, the only thing remains that could possibly make money worth a crap is what I termed before as the human expression which I defined as the employment of time, skills, talents, energy, and effort in the creation of goods and services needed by the human family. So this so called money which many treat like a holy cow (good for nothing unless it used for milk, meat, and farm work) is indeed worthless unless it can be used as a medium of exchange to facilitate productivity as you termed many times over and over.

    Once we stop treating money as valuable commodity in itself as Christine severally has presented many times, which explains her total rebellion of the idea of money altogether, then we will never understand how they got us into this barren debate. I am shocked and appalled that most of us have failed to see that simple fact. If the money had any value when it came out of the print shop, then why the Rothschild did not just keep it to themselves and declared themselves wealthy just for having it???????????????!!!!!!!!!!

    The answer which may shock everyone is that the Rothschild know by simple intelligence yet attended with a great deal of evil and deceit that their money is worth nothing unless it is forced onto the population (nations) and put into circulation to pick up value as it exchanges hands. I guess that was the original thought of postulating that the value of money depends on how many times it has been circulated (changed hands over.) So herein we continue to debate side issues like interest and banks buying into this evil trap. If for nothing else, my intelligence, pride, and liberty should resist being used by folks like the Rothschild to turn their calf into a real GOD! Oh my God, how could we be so naive to fall in for the trap? If their money did not have any value to start with, how in hell they expect me as well as others to give it some value? This is I think the problem David. As for the gold advocates who may see this argument in their favor, I continue to say that even gold could clone the same trap if we treat it as a valuable thing in itself that should earn even more value over time just because it sits there in the safe box for years and years. That's why some folks like Citizen and Daniels persist on seeing money in itself as wealth and therefore qualified to earn interest over time. That is where the biggest lie of the banking industry started when they maliciously crafted the art of fractional reserve and interest. It is a whole scam into scam into another scam raised to the nth power as n goes to infinity! This is a horrible situation that a sound mind should never fall for. What is based on a lie to start with will never be good for humanity. It is only to the fact that God is good and also was the originator of this universe that we continue to have hope in goodness. Otherwise, we would all turn into devils because the temptation is so great!

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  5. I repost this reply i gave to Citizen in the other forum:

    Citizen, as i said you clearly have no idea what MPE stands for. I will try to explain it as simple as possible.

    MPE is a currency (our public medium of exchange) not subject to interest and backed by our labor/production/products or anything else we are capable of.

    That´s it.

    Anyone objecting to this is either a banker, or just plain stupid.

    Moreover, I think that you guys are making the same set of MISTAKEN assumptions, about Mathematically Perfected Economy, that many are making, BECAUSE OF THE NAME.

    Here is what people think: When they hear the name—Mathematically Perfected Economy— visions of a Hungarian Central Planner enter into their head. …But that’s just a misintepretation/false assumption.

    What I think has happened here, is that you guys have made the same mistakes that many people once made. Well. Ignorance, once cured, returns for no good reason. So, here is what Mathematically Perfected Economy REALLY IS:

    (1) Principals for loans, are created out of thin air, as debt. …Our current monetary regime does this anyway.
    (2) But the loans are interest-free. …Why would you pay somebody big bucks to do something that you could do for yourself, for nothing?
    (3) The ELIXUR: Loans are paid back, and the money is RETIRED from the circulation, in a time-based manner which is the mirror-image of the depreciation of the product. Why? So there can be no inflation or deflation. …And, yeah, I know that stuff happens.
    (4) Otherwise, there is NO government intervention in markets! No central planning. No regulations or manipulations or market distortions—-the invisible hand rule the day.

    Here is a simple example: A car dealer decides to lend you money for a car which free markets have decided is worth $20,000. And this car will last for 10 years. This car will depreciate in value in a linear, straight-line fashion—-that is, it will lose, on average, $2,000 in value per year.

    (1) $20,000 are created out of thin air as debt.
    (2) The car dealer recieves $20,000—-a trade of equal measures of production in exchange for equal measures of production. Why? Because the invisible hand says so. That’s why.
    (3) $2,000 per year are retired from the circulation as the loan is paid back untill, in ten years, ALL $20,000 have been retired from the circulation.

    The result: After year 1, there is $18,000 left in circulation, and the car is worth $18,000. After year 5, there is $10,000 in circulation, and the car is worth $10,000. And so on and so on.

    Get it? Under Mathematically Perfected Economy, (1) There is always enough money created out of thin air to cause full employment—-there is always full employment. (2) But, at the same time, there is always, on average, an inflation rate of ZERO. (3) And there is no more business cycle.

    Well, now you know. And you guys are making the same exact mistakes that many people originally made.

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    • Jake,

      Excuse me for my apparent ignorance of MPE,
      But what I've read about MPE and the associated comments in this blog site simply doesn't square with any of the Well Established and Time Tested paradigms of Classical Economics.

      I've studied graduate level Micro and Macro Econ, Money and Banking, Monetary Policy and History of Money, MPE does not square with any of the STANDARDS!

      Your $20K car example doesn't pass the straight face test. No PRUDENT (emphasis added) manufacturer will sell products on a fixed pricing structure only to tie up their production capital for years while they receive back the Principal ONLY!
      So LOANS are the essential instruments to facilitate the transactions.
      Loans come from Saved (hoarded) Capital NOT from printing money.
      Sane people don't loan their wealth out on risky loans without expectation of return for their risk. Do you honestly believe that MPE entails NO risk to personal wealth?

      Citizens only choose to use the State printed Fiat Currency when there is reasonable expectations that the value of their Capital, while in the form of Fiat Currency, will not rapidly deteriorate while in transition from currency to commodity.

      Currently, the USA has the wonderful FED counterfeiting the Dollar at a record pace. The FED is a "private" bank given a monopoly charter to Inflate or Deflate the Dollar as they SECRETLY determine who the winners and losers will become.
      They are a quasi-government Central Bank, their tools include, discounts, interest rates, fractional reserve edicts and open market policies to manipulate our lives.
      WE apparently agree on these facts

      Where we diverge is
      You MPE "gnomes" are convinced that "spooky dude" Montagne aka the Wizard of MPE is somehow a benevolent dictator, a Saint who is completely above earthly temptations and could not possible become a Ben Berneke style chairmen.
      I quote him "Grow the F** UP!"
      OR
      You honestly believe that a software algorithm will magically deliver a "perfect" balanced economy, no Inflation/Deflation, because a super-computer can re-calculates the worlds net worth every 60 seconds.

      You wrote: "seems a very simple thing to accomplish too if we simply establish this as the objective and create and manage some system to make it do that"

      If true, you've been playing way WAY too much World of WarCraft.

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      • Hello to all,

        I hope you didn't miss Saturday's first broadcast on MPE. Mike was still taking calls to the wee hours of the morning after the show. I've arranged at least for now, for show archives to be hosted at ZShare. The link to listen to the first broadcast is:

        http://www.zshare.net/audio/820088191e550288/

        If you really want to succeed in getting the banks out, it's time to start going viral. I leave it to you to spread this as you see fit.

        Warm regards,
        Jack

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      • Hi Citizen;

        You do actually pose a good question here because the exact function of this hasn't been completely clear to me until now as well. I went back and reread the post and i think i've got it at this point, correct me if i'm wrong Jake.

        The guy wants to buy the car but needs to loan the money for it, the department of the treasury issues the loan for the purchase price of the car which he pays the dealer, and determines his rate of repayment at exactly the depreciation rate of the car right down to zero value. Hence obtaining Mikes objective of maintaining the exact amount of currency in circulation to pay for the remaining value of what it purchased and hence the extra 1 in the 1:1:1 relationship that i've been wondering about.

        I find that i have to look hard and generally read a couple of times for some of these aspects to become clear, so the posts do need a few more words or a few less more organized words but this is finally making perfect sense.

        Re: Classical Economics, Micro and Macro Econ, Money and Banking, Monetary Policy and History of Money, now i understand why we have a problem too.

        To me it would seem that all of these are based on putting the cart in front of the horse, and regulating useful production with money and this is why MPE does not square with any of the standards nor do the standards square with anything else that the rest of us have been discussing here. This is also why money ended up destroying production for no reason whatsoever in the 1930's, 1970's, 2000's and every 40 odd years and economics sure as hell ain't going to fix this nor is it capable of even restoring another cycle at this point just as it hasn't been anywhere else in the world ether after the final crash. Bottom line is that because of such economics, because of putting the cart in front of the horse, the banks who create the economics to study have all the money and all the wealth leaving nothing for the people to restore it with, and why can't they?, because as a result of economics they have no money to trade with and according to the foreclosure section in every local newspaper, all but a precious few won't even have homes to live in anymore as well. This is the result of the standards which MPE, Ben Franklin, the simple functional ideas which so many of us have been discussing on here do not square with.

        This is exactly what we need to throw out the window. Money is not an entity, money is not a natural thing, and in considering it otherwise classical economics has had us hunting around for rocks and sticks for the past god knows how many centuries in order to try and pound in a simple nail because they think it needs to be done with a natural thing. The sticks keep breaking the rocks keep shattering and then when we finally do get a solid hit on the nail with a big enough rock its face isn't square and we just and up bending it over and ruining it instead of driving it in. The cart is still in front of the horse so the horse we still can't go anyplace, and why would anyone want to give any credence at all to the study of such nonsense.

        If on the other hand, we determine the only possible useful purpose of money, which can simply and only be a tool to facilitate trade between the population for its useful production and services, and then we purposely, willfully and deliberately create a tool which can actually accomplish this, we can make ourselves a hammer, with a handle, a solid heavy head and a square flat face, we can swing it 3 times in 1 1/2 seconds and have that nail driven home as oppose to spending god knows how many centuries fighting with sticks and rocks only in the end to bend the nail and destroy the objective itself. Now, we have the horse in front of the cart now finally we can start moving instead of standing in one place and after all these centuries of never being able to do so, in the course of one day, we can finally get where we need to go.

        This is exactly why the discussions on here have made perfect sense to farmers, shopkeepers, engineers, mathematicians, construction workers, truck drivers, mothers who stay home and look after their kids, and one of my dearest friends who is a retired cowboy with a grade 6 education and an awful lot of wisdom and common sense who thinks he learns a lot from me but from whom i have learned as much as well. Every single one of them simply knows to put the horse in front of the cart instead of studying why the cart is in front of the horse instead :)

        Mike is a mathematician, so is TS, i'm an engineer. Not sure what Jake and Douglas do for a living nor Alvie or James, but if any of them are economists they know how not to think like one and i would hazard a guess that about 99.5 percent of the American population knows how to think like us. I believe i was the one who posted the statement you quoted "seems a very simple thing to accomplish too if we simply establish this as the objective and create and manage some system to make it do that" unless Jake has stated the same, and simply moving the horse to the front of the cart, or providing ourselves with a simple hammer to pound the nail is indeed a very simple and easy thing. Unless of course a banker can convince us otherwise. Oddly enough the have for the past several centuries but there aint no one believing them anymore.

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        • David,
          You posts are very difficult to answer because you mix 2 or more subject into each paragraph… Allow Me /
          Para 1:
          GOVERNMENT LOANS: NO! The Treasury MUST NOT be issuing any loans... It is not the Governments duty to run private sector commerce!!! Government MUST NOT be given authority to set “Free Market” Rates of Repayment, principal or interest.
          LIKE it is currently doing using the FED as its tool to float its massive debt spending. It is NOT the Government’s MONEY, it belongs to the American Citizens who’ve worked hard to SAVE it.
          DEPRECIATION: The Depreciation rate is a Free Market force and is SUBJECTIVE at best. The IRS will “allow” certain rates for Tax discount purposes, but the real world dictates (Richie Brothers Auctions) what others will pay for your asset based upon market demand. Depreciation is not determined by some IRS formula!

          Para #05
          MONEY: Massive printing of fiat currency “Money”, “destroys” the economy, and is only possible with Fractional Reserve Banking [FRB]. Money DOES NOT DESTROY production. Excess PRINTING (FED credit creation) causes artificially low interest rates which causes Mal-Investment and THAT destroys production.

          BANKS: Banks do not “create the economics”! Banks do not have “all the wealth”! FRB destroys the economy by robbing the Citizens of THEIR wealth by DILUTION!
          LESSON/// A “BANK” is a grain elevator in Goodland Kansas, farmers joined together, pool their capital and built the elevator to store their wealth! Their wealth is 500 million bushels of red winter wheat! THAT’S MONEY. Not that crap that the FED prints!!! Have your heard the Water and Diamonds story??

          ECONOMIC SCIENCE: Economics is called the “dismal science” for a very good reason; it studies the aftermath of an economic crash and attempts to explain what happened. It’s an “autopsy” forensic science. The test of any good theory is how well it explains things as they really are (AE), and not how we’d like them to be (MPE).

          FORECLOSURES: are a fact of life, people have bad luck, over extend themselves, or simply refuse to honor their obligations. But the owner of the Note IS the American Public (you and me) who expect the note to be paid. The reasons for the failure to pay might be a sad story, but the note holder must be paid regardless and a dead-beat borrower must be evicted to pay the note holders.

          Para #6
          “..Throw out the window..” SAY WHAT? whatever
          MONEY: is both a commodity (500 million bushels of “natural” winter wheat) in the BANK aka silo. AND Money is ALSO fiat currency BACKED with BULLION! Give me silver and gold that I can BANK… buried in my back yard under the pissing angel statue, oops.
          Para #7
          MONEY: is simply a temporary TOKEN of WEALTH. 500 million bushels of winter wheat ($5.76/Bushel) is about $2.8 Trillion Fed Reserve Notes. But in 1933 those same bushels sold for $0.28/bushel or $140 million.
          QUESTION// Which one is the real money, Winter Wheat or Fed Reserve Notes?
          ANSWER// Making a BIG FREAKING HAMMER made of FED or MPE Reserve Notes won’t make one additional bushel of Winter Wheat.
          PAPER CURRENCY is NOT a “big hammer”, it’s a “shredder” of WEALTH!!!
          Sorry, I don’t buy this Central Bank wealth creation crap

          Para #8
          MPE for SIMPLETONS?
          No, real wealth isn’t “created” by the FED or MPE, its created by the hard work of those people you listed, their excess work is converted into SAVINGS and BANKED (SILO) for a rainy day (deflation) and traded for other real tangible wealth, a tractor.

          Para #9
          RESUMES’: I’ve taught HS math, programmed in Fortran77, Visual Basic and C++, and currently Design/Build Civil Bridge Projects, SO WHAT!!!
          ECONOMIST: I study, read and test economic theories; and I find that Austrian Economics offers the BEST explanation of how the real world functions economically. No smoke and mirrors, no hyperbole i.e. “no interest”, “no inflation/deflation”, “no banks”, “no Jews” oops did I day that?

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  6. The libertarian austrian ideology is so self contradictory that it can both oppose 'big' government and support fascism at the same time.

    The fundamental element of Libertarianism and also Austrian economics is that everything ought to be privately owned. If an individual or group of wealthy landowners owned all the land in America and rented and leased it to everyone else and imposed the exact same conditions that the state imposes and had 'charges' instead of taxes, then the libertarians would have absolutely no problem with supporting such a system. They would merely call the 'laws' 'free contracts' and the taxes 'service charges'

    Libertarian austrians are in favour of absolute tyranny and dictatorship, just as long as it's a private individual or corporation doing the oppressing, and not a democratic nation state, even where the outcomes are exactly the same.

    A libertarian world dominated by an association of very large corporations would function very very similarly to the fascist states of the 20th century.

    Friedman was a huge supporter of Pinochet's economic policies, he engineered most of them, either directly or indirectly through his students who were dominating chilean economic policy.

    He endorsed the military coup that got Pinochet into power by implying that if Allende had not been overthrown there would be torture imprisonment and political repression in Chile, he said this while pinochet was doing those very things.

    Another on von mises' proteges, Hayek was another huge supporter of pinochet, Hayek used the fascist dictatorship as the model way all governments should behave to introduce the kinds of economic reforms necessary for a libertarian utopia. Hayek wrote in a letter to the london times saying he had "not been able to find a single person even in much maligned Chile who did not agree that personal freedom was much greater under Pinochet than it had been under Allende."

    Both Friedman and Hayek believed Pinochet was just a stepping stone towards a libertarian free market economy.

    And that ladies and gentleman is what austrians and libertarians really stand for.

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  7. Our faschist austrian Citizen doesn´t understand the first thing about Mathematically Perfected Economy for if he does he wouldn´t come up with these false assertions which he can NOT proof simply because MPE and Mike is 100% correct on every count. The fact he judges a book on it´s cover tells you the fool he really is.

    You are done faschist gnome(s), and you know it.....We´re going to smoke you out of your miserable little faschist gnome dream and kick you out of this country for this country to return to it´s constitutional values found by our fathers. MPE is what OUR founding fathers stood for.

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  8. DANGER: Mathematical Perfected Economy (MPE)
    IS World Socialism on Steroids
    IS neither mathematical and is far from perfected by any stretch of one’s imagination.

    Under MPE, A person who accumulates capital and wishes to earn interest on their savings is summarily labeled a "Jew” or “Banker"

    Under MPE, ALL concentrations of wealth are systematically "redistributed" in the form of "interest free" principal only loans made to anyone who has a “need”.

    Under MPE, Darth Michael Montagne Vader, writes and manages the software source code that instantaneously redistributes the world currency. Never mind that Darth Montagne lives in the shadows, a spooky dude shown in a back lit hunting photo reminiscent of a fugitive poster on the Post Office wall. “this is not the droid you're looking for”

    Under MPE, SOFTWARE becomes the cyber math tool used to re-balance inequities in the world economy. As soon as any inflation or deflation is detected, the offending area is targeted with account transfers out or in, as the case may dictate, to correct the imbalanced condition. I admit that Fortan77 or C++ are both capable programming tools able to produce scalable code to manipulate the entire world economy, but WHY would anyone choose to implement such an inherently amoral and inhuman system of wealth redistribution?

    Under MPE, personal WEALTH is discouraged, only the STATE holds the wealth and individuals are summarily stripped of any excess savings (hoarding) they may have earned over a lifetime of hard work. Everyone’s wealth is absorbed into the “COLLECTIVE”. Corporations are deemed to be “interest earning usury banks or Jews, hoarding the currency and thus are targeted and stripped of any of their excess capital which is reabsorbed into the collective and redistributed by the MPE software model.

    Oh and yes Darth (Michael Montagne) Vader
    IS the Man Behind the Curtain (The Mighty OZ) who is in charge of the algorithm code.

    Can we all give a rousing Sieg Heil here!

    I DON'T THINK SO...
    Austrian Economics dismantles MPE at every key point of applied economics and IS NOT Socialism on Steroids

    Ron Paul is an AE Libertarian that RESPECTS human action and liberty.
    MPE is computer driven socialism, TOTALITARIAN hack code

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    • That is a great explanation of
      MPE! The only point I would contend is that MPE is immoral rather than amoral and not only is it inhuman it is inhumane.

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      • Daniel,

        These MPE zombies have locked the Sound Money link up so I've not been able to post on that site to refute their NONSENSE.

        When anyone with half a brain reads this MPE drivel, it becomes clear that its National Socialism run by computer hacks.

        Maybe if we ask nicely, they might send us some brown shirts?

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    • Well Citizen, this post is unfortunate because at one time i did have a lot of respect for you, unfortunately i cannot anymore.

      Instead of answering the question which several of us have posed numerous times in that what would prevent the Rothschild’s from loaning an equal amount of hard currencies into circulation and in 10 years consume all of our hard currencies in interest which you cant as we all know this is exactly what would happen, you post what anyone who has been reading and following these conversations knows to be outright lies supposedly in defense of your “Theory”, and consequently the “Theory” has now lost any and all credibility which it could possibly have.

      I’ve been waiting for Mike to respond do this, as he is the one best qualified to defend MPE itself, and although i don’t consider MPE to be the be all and end all of establishing a free economy where the people have the right to keep and benefit from all of their own efforts it does contain the essential elements toward establishing this. I simply want to see something which can work toward everyone’s freedom and benefit and MPE along with the simple discussions many of us have been having on here, and the reasonings of Franklin, Lincoln, and many others would and could.

      In terms of wealth distribution, here we go:

      So called “free market capitalism” is the ultimate form of wealth redistribution, as it allows a parasitic infection which contributes absolutely nothing toward the benefit of the population (Banks) to progressively consume all of the nations wealth in interest to the extent where 100 % of the wealth is concentrated in the hands of a few banking families with nothing left for anyone else, so this is the ultimate form of wealth redistribution.

      “Austrian economics” also constitutes this same ultimate form of wealth redistribution and is the back up plan of the banking system in case they fail to consume all of the wealth through “free market capitalism” It restricts us to finite currencies which cannot be replaced once consumed, and leaves the door wide open for banks to consume these currencies in interest without a federal reserve bank, and without fractional reserve banking as well, just as i said, the Rothschilds have literally all of the worlds gold supply secured in their vaults under London, with the exception of that which is supposedly secured in Fort Knox, and under the Austrian terms and conditions they will have all of that gold to within about 10 years. Again this allows a parasitic infection which contributes absolutely nothing toward the benefit of the population (Banks) consume all of the nations wealth in interest to the extent where 100 % of the wealth is concentrated in the hands of a few banking families with nothing left for anyone else, so this is the ultimate form of wealth redistribution and you call giving them the right to do this freedom ??????????????????????????????

      Socialism does not even constitute redistribution of wealth as it is simply the means to secure absolute power and control over the population by the banks through their puppet governments once they have consumed 100 % of the wealth through the wealth redistribution process, in order to prevent any attempt by the population to get it back, so it is simply the final consequence and the means to permanently secure the wealth redistribution promoted by the former.

      What you are defending as “Freedom” amounts to removing from the people the right to acquire and hold property and giving thieves “free” reign in order to steal from the entire population at will until there is no more property left for them to steal. There is and can be no disputing this, and in the end this is the only end result which can be accomplished with any form of Banking and private interest, as an economy simply cannot exist to serve a parasitic infection as opposed to those contributing to its useful production. Any 3 year old child can figure this out and anyone who would maintain that it can, can only do so as a result of trusting and believing in a theory to the point where it becomes a religion and makes them incapable of any form of sense or reason which would enable them to see beyond the lies they’ve been fed. I’m actually very surprised that throughout all of the discussion which has taken place here you have not begun to see this by now yourself.

      What we have been promoting instead, what Mike and Jake call MPE, what i have been calling Ben Franklin economics, etc., is a means to permanently eliminate any form of wealth redistribution by simply eliminating the parasitic infection which must make complete and total wealth redistribution inevitable, Banks and private interest.

      What we are promoting is a completely free and private enterprise system and economy, where the people themselves create and manage their own means of trade for their own benefit independently of the parasitic infection which must and has always consumed “redistributed” 100 % of the wealth into its own hands in order to maintain its ability to survive. What we are talking about, is giving each and every member of the population not the privilege at the mercy of the banking system but the “right”, to keep and prosper privately, not publicly, from 100 % of the useful efforts which each and every one of them is willing and capable of contributing to the rest, and providing an equal chance for every single citizen in order to do so according to the basic tenet on which the United States of America is founded, that “all men are created equal”.

      If this is done wisely, it can even eliminate the final form of involuntary servitude which would still exist after the elimination of banking and interest which is Taxation, again establishing “Freedom” where there was none before. If it is done wisely, it can completely and totally eliminate poverty as well where the excess injections of currency which will be required to make up for economic growth that the population generates, can be used to provide a more than adequate existence even for the people not capable of contributing to the productive effort of the population at absolutely no cost to any of those that do.

      If done correctly this can establish what today would be considered a Utopian dream where the standard of living of the population in America would be so far beyond anything which we have experienced in the past, that it would be impossible for most to comprehend until it is actually established. Instead of being a Utopian dream, it is simply the natural state of prosperity which the people themselves would have been capable of creating all along except for the fact that the vast majority of their productive effort has always been consumed by the parasitic infection which both “Free Market Capitalism” and “Austrian Economics” exist to feed. In other words, it will be the restoration of their natural ability to create prosperity for themselves and each other, absent of the unnatural redistribution of wealth which this parasitic infection must inevitably generate to the point where that unnatural distribution becomes complete and absolute resulting in the final evolution of Socialism to secure that distribution.

      Freedom is the absence of power and you can only have one or the other as the two cannot exist within the same space except at each others expense. I need no power in order to sustain myself, because i contribute useful and beneficial things to the population for their own benefit which they willingly obtain from me because what i create for them will enhance their lives, their enjoyment of freedom, and their pursuit of happiness. Banks on the other hand contribute no such thing, and must establish power in order to survive and sustain themselves as they have absolutely no other means to do so, neither does a thief who violates the rights and freedoms of his fellow citizens and sustains himself by stealing from them that which they have rightfully earned.

      It is about bloody time that absolutely everyone came to understand that difference so that freedom can be established and finally secured, as opposed to trusting and believing more idiotic bullshit invented by this parasitic infection which survives on power and digging both their own and everyone else’s graves ever deeper in the name of false “freedom” to the extent where there will be absolutely no way for any of us to climb out of them anymore.

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      • David, you write : "Well Citizen, this post is unfortunate because at one time i did have a lot of respect for you, unfortunately i cannot anymore."

        If you are so concerned about respect and credibility, check out what your hero Mike Montagne said in response to my post on inflation/deflation. I pointed out a legitimate consideration if not flaw with MPE regarding the definition of inflation, and Mike the Intellectual Mountain Montagne responded with one sentence "grow the f*** up." Afterwards he regretted his decistion and changed it to "grow the you know what up." But he still would not discuss the issues, he said inflation and deflation are defined in the dictionary- which is far from accurate, and is not an honest debate.

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        • HI Daniels;

          Well, im not one to worship heroes, but i do appreciate Mike's efforts and the contribution of his knowledge toward the establishment of a free and functional economic system, along with those of many others on here toward this end, along with those of many who have gone before us and established the basic concepts on which all such reasoning is based, so if it is accomplished it will be a result of the combined efforts of a great many people.

          I think the conversation your referring to is on the sound money blog and that one is down on my end again since yesterday, so i haven't had a chance to read it and see what the question is which was posed. I'm sort of expecting that i answered it in another one of my posts on the blog before it went down as well, and if it is a legitimate question as opposed to more BS like citizens post on here, then Mike does need to respond as well.

          I do sense you thinking very hard on this matter which is good, and as long as you remain willing to think outside the box and understand new (or very old and forgotten) concepts and ideas, then id consider discussion with you an extremely worthwhile effort. It's also easy to form mistaken impressions of people with some of the discussions on here and there have been times where i simply did not want to put in the time and effort to respond to some, but i did anyway, and the effort in doing so was extremely productive and has been many times as well. I do sense in Mike a man of great abilities especially in this field and along with this can often come a lack of patience in explaining things to others as we sometimes expect what seems obvious to us to be obvious to them as well. I have had to stop myself from just brushing things off many times in regards to the engineering work i do as well and that effort has generally been worthwhile.

          Anyway, for the time being the sound money blog is down, but i want to see Mike's response in terms of inflation as well. I already read something he had about it on his website http://perfecteconomy.com/ which in and of itself takes some time to sort through, but i expect his response will be something similar to which i've already detailed and real world experience in terms of the mechanics of actual production and its interaction with currency does indeed bear this out.

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        • Yea, it is frustrating Sound Money keeps locking up. The point of my post is that what Mike calls inflation/deflation is not the accepted definition of inflation/deflation by any of the major schools of economics (Monetarist, Keynesian, Classical, or Austrian). He says:

          "Given the traditional definitions of inflation and deflation are respectively, increases or decreases in circulation per represented wealth"

          Now it is true that the Keynesians and to some extent the Classical school believe this is true in the short run only, but the "traditional" excepted definition of inflation and deflation in the long run is unanimously the quantity theory which states that inflation and deflation are simply increases and decreases in the money supply period, not their change in value relative to wealth in society. Now I would argue that the quantity theory is the only theory in the short and long runs, but that's more of an aside.

          My point is that Mike defines inflation/deflation incorrectly. If he wants to prove the major schools of economics wrong on this definition, that would require a piece of work dedicated to the actual definition, but as it is, he takes inflation and deflation as already defined.

          Theoretically, Mike could show that it is irrelevant that the concept he is referring to (change in money relative to wealth, I'll call it CM/W) conforms to the definition of inflation/deflation, it is still an actual phenomenon, so name it something else, I dont care.

          Again, if he takes this route saying his concept CM/W, while not inflation/deflation, is a real problem that must be addressed, that's fine. But again, he has not shown that it is a problem. He starts his arguments assuming it is a problem.

          I was calling on Mike to start his arguments at a more basic level. It is true that CM/W occurs, I don't think it is as simple as he describes it, but it occurs. Before proposing a drastic change in the monetary system, the burden is on Mike to show that CM/W is a problem.

          Finally, it is incorrect (or even dishonest) to call CM/W inflation/deflation using the "traditional definitions." He is buildintg his argument on something that is not true, but as I said that alone doesn't prove him incorrect, but it requires him to begin his argument one step before he does, demonstrating that CM/W is a phenomenon that causes harm to society.

          I have read most of the posts on the Sound Money board, and if you or anyone else has answered this I missed it. It has probly been answered indirectly, but a direct answer is needed for such a fundamental building block of MPE, so I hope that you or Mike can provide that. It is true I havn't read everything on the MPE website, but I will say that every time it appears Mike is getting close to answering this question, he skips over it. So for the benefit of MPE as a theory, a good answer to this question is a must.

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        • Hi Daniels;

          LOL your making me take a long coffee break here :)

          Yes, hopefully the sound money blog will be back soon and you can at least catch my post in regards to this matter, i think you'll make perfect sense of it when you do as well.

          What i'm terming inflation is a decrease in the value (purchasing power) of currency, it has nothing to do with the amount of currency in circulation and the established money theories have this completely ass backwards as they simply do not take the real world considerations of actual useful production into account, nor do they acknowledge the practical consequences in regards to this which we have seen evidenced in front of our faces throughout our lifetimes.

          I guess that as someone who owns and operates an engineering / manufacturing business and is actually involved in this useful production in various ways i am able to see this as i can understand the relation to purchasing power, production volume and production cost as well as any could, so hopefully these thoughts can be useful towards others considering and figuring this out as well.

          What actually exists is an enormous buffer zone, where inflation (again decrease in value of he currency) comes about as a result of a shortage of purchasing power dramatically increasing the cost of production due to decreased quantity, and conversely a point at which the value of the currency decreases because there is more currency in circulation than is needed to pay for what the actual combined production capacity becomes.

          All of the inflation which any of us have experienced in our lifetimes is actually a result of a shortage of currency limiting production and increasing its cost, as far as am aware the only time when inflation existed due to an excess or currency to the production capacity was during Franklin's time when several of the colonial governments went on spending binges and actually injected more than the people were capable of producing for trade at which point if you double the circulation you will half the value. The thing to consider here too though is that maximum production and tangible prosperity had still been generated regardless of what happened to the medium of exchange.

          With our modern technology and what our actual production capacity could become given the ability of the population to purchase the full extent of it, we have an awfully long way to go before even coming close to reaching that point, so i hope that those reading the post can actually begin to comprehend the absolutely enormous potential for prosperity which can result from simply giving ourselves the ability to buy up the full value of what we can produce for each other.

          This is my objective in being involved in this thing, as i can see the potential for such rich and abundant prosperity so far beyond the wildest dreams of anyone in America today as it would be impossible for them to comprehend until they actually experience the end result. The question to pose is, are both myself and every single other person in America who is involved in providing any form or useful production or service today, right now, this minute, capable of producing an extra 2 0r 3,000 dollars worth of really cool and useful stuff for every person in America each and every month given them having the ability to obtain it from us ? Of course we are. What happens when 10 X more Americans become involved in independently contributing their own ideas and efforts toward more new and useful production and services given both the freedom to do so and the ability of the population to obtain them ?

          This is where my faith and hope lies, in the free and natural ability of the American people to create useful benefit for themselves and each other. My single and only objective in this issue is to try and come up with a means to enable them to finally do so to the fullest extent that they can.

          If i remember correctly Mikes statement on his website about this indicated that experience demonstrated the conclusions of economics on inflation to be wrong which is true, but didn't speculate as to why, so maybe this can provide some additional information for him to use as well.

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        • I understand what you and Mike are calling inflation. I hope you will take the following post seriously, and consider the points I am making carefully.

          What you refer to as inflation has many causes, one of which is changing the supply of money. When discussing this issue it is vital that when referring to a change in the purchasing power in money, we identify what specific change we are concerned with.

          The purchasing value of the dollar can go up or down for a variety of reasons. When Henry Ford automated the production line for cars, cars got cheaper because they used fewer resources to make. They really got cheaper. When this happened, the purchasing power of the dollar relative to automobiles got stronger. This is not deflation. This is Henry Ford making cars cheaper in real terms. The point I am making about inflation and deflation is that those terms refer very specifically to the change in purchasing power of the dollar (or whatever currency) associated with the change in quantity of that currency. If you double the amount of dollars everyone has instantly the dollar becomes half as valuable. That is inflation.

          When Florida experiences sub zero temperatures and all their orange crops fail, oranges become more expensive (in real terms, there are fewer oranges produced, oranges are more expansive to produce, they take more real resources to be produced). The dollar now has less purchasing power relative to oranges. This is not inflation. This is oranges getting more expensive.

          So, when speaking of the change in purchasing power of currency, the different influences must be separated to have a meaningful discussion. Inflation is simply the change in the purchasing power of currency directly caused by the change in the quantity of money. All other factors that affect the purchasing power of currency have different names, and must be refereed to by their names in order to be precise about the real phenomenon taking place.

          A final example (it is an over simplification, but I believe it illustrates the point) The FED doubles the supply of money, each dollar has half as much purchasing power. Henry Ford makes efficiency improvements to the production of the Model T, so it now takes half as many resources (materials labor time etc) to produce. The result is that the dollar now buys exactly the same number of model T's it did before. Has inflation taken place despite the fact that the purchasing power of the dollar relative to Model T's has not changed? Yes, inflation has taken place while simultaneously productivity has increased.

          I hope this helps separate the various causes of a change in the purchasing power of currency.

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        • Hi Again Daniels;

          Yes, this is turning into a great discussion here. I guess in terms of definitions, your obviously much more versed in standard economic theory and terminology than i am, but should we simply use the definitions of decrease or increase in the purchasing power per unit of currency which would seem the apparent definition to most people for inflation and deflation ?

          I loved the example of Henry Ford which you used and it illustrates perfectly the "buffer zone" i was referring to, and actually demonstrates how the purchasing power of a currency can actually be increased regardless or circulation given the ability of the population to buy up and increase the volume of production. Technically this could be termed deflation, but as you say it has nothing to do with the currency itself, it is simply an increase in the efficiency of production making the product more affordable to the consumer due to that increase in efficiency and as such it becomes a very good thing toward everyone's benefit as each can now have access to twice as much as a result. Again the objective is coming up with a way to max this process out to its maximum potential level and benefit to the population. Something which should be easy to accomplish.

          Again, your orange example illustrates the cause of inflation under the current definition we're using in indicating how decreased production, due to either a shortage of currency as well as natural disasters will result in increased cost due to shortage or decreased production demand as well. Where this is caused by a natural disaster, it will result in a temporary increased cost on one particular item which again has nothing to do with the currency itself. Where it is caused by a manipulated shortage of currency it will result in a decrease of the purchasing power of the currency on all items. Once again the objective becomes trying to minimize his process to the extent where the only possible way for it to occur is due to circumstances beyond control where such occurrence can only result in a temporary condition on certain items and not degenerate into a long term or permanent condition. Again something which should be easy to accomplish.

          Re; your last paragraph, and i addressed this issue on the sound money blog, but do consider the specific timing of this as we all have experienced in our own lives in accordance with what we ourselves have paid for the things we use. This can very well illustrate the cause of the long term effects of this by examining the specific timing of events in relation to the state of currency. It is always an extremely difficult thing in order to bring prices down once they have stabilized at a high level as it would essentially take some form of unanimous agreement between everyone to simply drop a zero and keep on going, but i think that you'll determine for yourself that the price increases have always occurred under a shortage of purchasing power, i.e. during the busts, and then carried over into the next boom, and not while the economy was being flooded with credit. I don't know if your old enough to remember the massive inflation and recession we experienced in the 1970's but it was in the latter 1970's when the debt from the massive injection of credit which had been put into circulation in the earlier part of the decade and before became due and the supply or currency diminished that the inflation happened. The Reagan administration managed to entice the banks into injecting another massive volume of credit into circulation with its 20% interest rate policy at which point prices once again stabilized and at least some form of production was restored. Today we are paying the price for that again as those debts have now become due, only now are ever more insurmountable than before, and there is absolutely no way that the population can contend with a 40 % interest rate in order to entice the banks to inject more credit again.

          Prices do eventually come down due to a shortage of currency as well, as they eventually did in the 1930's depression, but until such a time as more purchasing power was injected into the population they still existed in the worst state of abject poverty and hardship which this country had ever seen. Again, although there were some small natural elements involved, the depression was created primarily by banks artificially removing the means of trade, and ended by banks artificially injecting more means of trade in order to fund the war effort, without which the result would have been permanent, resulting in the final objective they are still trying to accomplish today per: Jefferson's statement on the matter.

          I guess if we were to define in simple terms the objective which needs to be accomplished here its to remove banks and their ability to artificially manipulate economic conditions in order to create these cycles and inevitably bring things to the point where things can no longer be restored, and give the people the ability to manage the system in order to establish stable and consistent and reliable trade and production and allow that capacity to perpetually increase instead of simply being torn down in cycles as it has been in the past and eventually eliminated as well. Also seems a very simple thing to accomplish too if we simply establish this as the objective and create and manage some system to make it do that. It's called economic renaissance and will simply involve directing our thoughts toward creating something new which can as opposed to clinging to antiquated ideas which guarantee it won't.

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  9. James Madison said instead of listening to idiots in the media:

    "Of all the enemies to public liberty war is, perhaps, the most to be dreaded, because it comprises and develops the germ of every other. War is the parent of armies; from these precede debts and taxes; and armies, and debts, and taxes are the known instruments for bringing the many under the domination of the few. In war, too, the discretionary power of the Executive is extended; its influence in dealing out offices, honors, and emoluments is multiplied; and all the means of seducing the minds, are added to those of subduing the force, of the people…. [There is also an] inequality of fortunes, and the opportunities of fraud, growing out of a state of war, and … degeneracy of manners and of morals…. No nation could preserve its freedom in the midst of continual warfare.

    A standing military force, with an overgrown Executive will not long be safe companions to liberty. The means of defense against. Foreign danger, have been always the instruments of tyranny at home. Among the Romans it was a standing maxim to excite a war, whenever a revolt was apprehended. Throughout all Europe, the armies kept up under the pretext of defending, have enslaved the people.

    Oppressors can tyrannize only when they achieve a standing army, an enslaved press, and a disarmed populace

    A well regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, trained in arms, is the best most natural defense of a free country".

    What would James Madison say now? He would see how the Military Industrial Complex born out of WWII through the Private Owners of the Western Central Banks. After they lost control of Hitler they had to stop him. So, the whole disproportional build up of Hitler’s Army was multiplied by the effort to stop him.

    After, the whole world was either blown up, big in dept or left with a huge Industrial Complex that either had to keep going or be converted into peace time productions. For example, the ‘Space Program’ was implemented in full force as a way to offset the economic dependency on the Industrial Military Complex.

    What Eisenhower realized was that the same people who gave rise to the Axis of Evil were the same who profited off its destruction. The fact that they lost control of Hitler is not the main issues. The issue is what they where planning on doing with Hitler’s massive Industrial Socialistic Complex before he turned on them.

    David, what we are dealing with here will take much more than a public effort to sway the general population to decommission the private ownership of The Federal Reserve. It would be much more to do the whole operation covertly without the Public Knowing. Our enemies simply have too much power over the Media and thus the Minds of the Public to be effective on a Political Scale. Nor, will some brilliant economic genius single handedly be able to neutralize such a Power.

    For example, the Private Central Banking Families have already placed ‘check mate’ into position in the event the US Government oust their power and influence over US Monetary policy. Why do you think the Power of the US Government is so cooperative and easily manipulated by such a Powerful Unconstitutional Force? It is called Global Multi-National Economic Interdependency. Yea, the US could easily brake off and take care of our own economy; However, not without a great deal of turmoil, public misunderstandings and China coming to claim their share of US Securities in the form of Land, Real-estate, Production and Labor.

    “Check Mate”!

    So, it would be better to covertly weed out all the Private Central Banking Families ‘AGENTS’ operating in the US Government, CIA, Pentagon, FBI, IRS, FDA, etc. Then slowly restore the economic independent sustainability of the US as nonchalantly as possible. To keep the publics Media Mind in the right direction we will have to put CFR members and organizers on public trial.

    On the Other Hand, we could make an International effort. This is an approach typical in many college political fraternal orders. What they promote is the International expansion of US principles such as Democracy, Free Markets and other Humane Rights. However, history shows that they are all used primarily to spread the power and control of the Private Central Banking Families.

    Our International effort would be impossible to implement without the Internet. In this case we would require a team that just focused on the Internet System of Alliances. We would simply promote that each Nation join together to keep and preserve their Independent Economic Sustainability with a proportional amount of trade.

    It was interesting to read how G-20 gathered and hashed out the exchange rates and the prospect of sustainable trade. Meanwhile, The Private Central Banking Families stand to benefit know matter who walks away with the best deal. How can G-20 pretend to figure out trade and exchange values when they have know audit or control over Private Central Banking Issuance.

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  10. This message is to notify all of us that Saturday will be the first broadcast live of my new radio show, "mike montagne on mathematically perfected economy and absolute consensual representation." The 3-hour broadcast will be available live from http://www.tnsradio.ning.com at 3 PM to 6 PM Pacific Time. Please notify your friends, who can listen in from a live link at the top left-hand corner of the TNS Radio home page. You can also tune in directly from any iTunes installation by clicking the Advanced menu... Open audio stream... and tuning in to the URL: http://184.82.19.16:8300/listen.pls.
    --
    Warm regards,
    mike montagne — founder, PEOPLE For Mathematically Perfected Economy™; author/engineer, mathematically perfected economy™ (1979)

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  11. David, you have such a great perspective. The one thing that concerns me the most is that we are dealing with a MASSIVE population that has never been properly instructed on the Constitutional Principles of the Issuance of NEW Currency.

    This is easy to understand when I realized that the Private Families who own and control the Federal Reserve went to a great extent to manipulate and mold the Public Educational System. Without doing so Citizens would Naturally never have tolerated such a Ludicrous Central Banking System that owns and controls the US Government and serves only on the Private Banks they own, control or want to take the assets from.

    I feel we as a Global Economy fashioned by stupid greedy ignorant Private Central Banking Families have arrived at the Climax, the Threshold or the ‘Political Correct’ way of stating this, The 50 year Cycle. The resent IRS bail out was a sign that they are stupid and out of control. This TAX bailout has only bought US more time.

    Now it is time for ‘The Private Central Banking Families’ to figure out how to cull ‘Their Heard of Mindless Consuming Spending Slaves’ before Civilization complete self-destructs.

    What I want to say now is that ‘The Private Central Banking Families are stupid fools and are the true destroyers of Planet Earth and All Humanity. Until everyday Citizen Wakes up to this we will all be subjected to the repercussions of their foolish actions.

    We must do more than installing a NEW Presidency and NEW Political Party that will courageously stand up to such Lunacy. We will need to start an ‘International Campaign against the Private International Banking Families’ in order to properly ‘curb’ them.

    By doing so we will at leased properly expose the true culprit of economy chaos and this will ensure that we as a People will never let this happen again. The expansion of the Universe can only occur through those who are effectively able to manage a Civilization through ‘Natural Laws’. The curse of the current ‘Unconstitutional Monetary System’ has now reached the limit of stability and the IRS bailouts only bought US more time.

    Urgent, I see clearly the ‘Political Cards’ played at strategic ‘Geological Points’.

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    • Hi Douglas;

      Wonderful post, again, and you say it like it is. Just as you say and as i've said in many previous posts, every single ounce of needless suffering and misery which has been inflicted on humanity, which is about 95 % of it in the past several hundred years has been caused by banks, owned and controlled by a few banking families. Were it not for them, the world could indeed be a very wonderful place, and without them it will be too. They need to be destroyed, the entire concept of banking needs to be destroyed, so that people can exist, prosper, and finally have the right to the benefit which they themselves are capable of creating for themselves and each other. If they are not and this is not done, we will lose every single thing which could possibly make our lives a worthwhile thing.

      As an immigrant i have experienced life under those conditions, and this is also why Jack and so many others from other countries have been coming on here and desperately urging and pleading with us to get this right, as if we don't and America falls to the absolute power of these banking families as the rest of the world has by now, then there can be no hope. America was my hope before i came here, and America is the hope of every other country in the world as well. It must be maintained at any cost.

      In terms of a population that has never been "properly instructed on the Constitutional Principles of the Issuance of NEW Currency", by now they have been and they've been figuring it out by the tens of millions. The culprits have been exposed. Its largely because of us as well. Over half a year ago, the people were suffering but they didn't have a clue as to why. When we all started discussing this on here, and formulating ideas of a working economy which could actually function for their benefit, i started emailing our discussions into circulation among the general public, and asked others to do the same and i think that many more have been doing this as well. It's to the point now where the ideas and information have been circulating long enough that they have actually gotten into the hands of a huge percentage of the population, and those that haven't received them personally have had discussions with others who have. Having seen this, and having experienced the hardship which has been inflicted on them despite the fact that our capacity to create prosperity has not changed one bit, and having seen the government bailouts of the culprits which they themselves are expected to pay for, they have put two a two together and gotten it right. As i said in another post, you can long into a sex chat room and you'll find someone on there talking about how we have to kill the banks and restore an American economy for Americans, so the ideas have permeated society by now. Everywhere you go and everyone you talk to, if you ask what they think about this 8 out of 10 times they'll tell you the same thing, they've had enough and the banks have got to go. The single and only trick left now will be trying to organize them to act collectively for their own benefit and make this happen.

      The last ditch effort now for the banks to save themselves is Austrian Economics, and i've heard enough of that by now to know where the theory came from. We have several on here who have been adamantly trying to convince us that simply switching over to hard currencies and getting rid of central banking will solve all our problems, but the arguments don't hold up and anyone with half an ounce of reason who's willing to think instead of just trust and believe is able to figure this out as well. They can argue all they want, but for every argument presented someone presents tangible evidence that it simply cannot work and by now its too late as well as the American People have had enough and have already decided that "THE BANKS HAVE GOT TO GO !"

      Oddly enough i'm still supporting Ron Paul and i want to see him as our president at some point in the next few years. If i actually believed that he supported this theory i wouldn't but as i've said in several posts to Jack, i think that he is lying through his teeth and saying what he needs to say to stay alive until he's in a position to do something about it. He's come out on the side of freedom every time so far and he will on this as well. He just isn't gullible enough to believe in what he says.

      We have an election coming up shortly, so after that we need to start circulating the "Declaration and Demand" we came up with awhile ago, and getting it into our senate and congressional offices once again. I'm expecting we'll see a major upset in the political system and right from the start we need to be letting them know what they are in for if they continue to support banking against the interests of the people. Someone needs to be working on trying to motivate a mass economic revolt as well where all of the people, all at once simply stop paying all banks payments and taxes, without them being dumb enough to continue doing this, the whole system comes crashing down, leaving no other option but to do what Franklin did and start issuing and managing a free public currency as a means of trade for the public benefit.

      The bottom line here is that the American people are the first population in the world to figure this out and understand the means to saving themselves before it was too late for them to do anything about it. Hopefully before too long they will get themselves organized and make it happen, and if they all act together it doesn't have to be a difficult thing either. My big worry is that the banks are living in absolute terror of us, they crashed the economy 10 years sooner than they were ready for it with all their mortgage scams getting out of hand, and if my sources are right, they are going to be flooding the economy with another round of debt currency shorty in order to try to placate people until their puppet corporation, the current United States Government, can put more laws in place abrogating our freedom to do anything about them in 2 or 3 years when the debt becomes due and the same that is obvious now becomes obvious again. Hopefully people will be wise enough not to accept the scraps from the bankers table, kill the banker anyway, and take it all for themselves.

      We are after all Americans, not sheep.

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      • OK David, so where should we start?

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        • Hi Douglas;

          Well, we've already started simply by making people aware of what is being done to them and giving them workable and functional solutions to the problems. We have already given them one means to act which is the Declaration and Demand which James motivated and i drafted toward our senate and congress, which if circulated in sufficient quantity may create enough fear in our political establishment in order to motivate them to turn on their masters in the banking system and act in our interests instead. It's offering forgiveness if they renounce their treason against is and do so, and they are already well aware of the increasing threat that the populations awareness of the situation poses to their existence. We have an election coming up in a very short time now and i expect we'll see a massive upset in the political establishment at that point. I'll be re-posting the Declaration and Demand either a few days before or after, and if absolutely everyone on here does their job and promotes the crap out of it so that it can get into circulation and in front of the entire population so they can act on it, it will let the new house and senate know in no uncertain terms that they had better act in our interest and do so soon, or else.

          I want you to catch this post from Truth Seeker as well:

          http://www.ronpaul.com/on-the-issues/comment-page-11/#comment-136727

          He's a young man, with a brilliant mind, a mathematician in fact, who started giving thought to what many of us were discussing on here a short time ago, has reasoned out the same things we have for himself and whom i think is even more capable of bringing us toward accomplishing the objective than any of us have been thus far. He will be one of the key players in this, and that is certain, and i am just so happy and relieved that we have his contributions to the effort now as well, as our chances of success just increased dramatically because of this.

          Short of the Declaration and Demand creating enough fear in the existing establishment in order to force them to act in our interests according to our will and benefit, then the next stage will be trying to organize a mass economic revolt by the population where they simply all stop paying and all at the same time. One person can propose the course of action, but its success is contingent on all of the others giving it everything they have in order to promote it and get it in front of the population so they can act together on it as well. I type 80 WPM but even so, i have already put many hundreds of hours into promoting this effort thus far and contributing what thoughts and ideas i had to it, and if everyone else behind them will simply dedicate themselves towards putting a small fraction of that into promoting the solutions and giving this everything they have until they are accomplished then they can and will be successful too.

          Short success on any of this, once conditions get bad enough, then the population will simply have to grab their rifles and do it the hard way, and if it comes to that, i just hope that out of all of the resulting chaos and confusion that they will in the end get the solutions right, and not allow the effort to be derailed by banks as it was the first time around.

          Anyway, these are my perceptions on what it will take in order to accomplish our objectives and if anyone else has any more ideas toward doing this successfully which i haven't thought of yet, we need them as well, so i'll ask everyone to keep this in the back of your minds and see what thoughts result. The simple objective at this point is to destroy Banking and eliminate its power over our political establishment so that we can do something, and once that is accomplished, we already have more than enough ideas which have been developed and contributed in order to get it right as well. As James said in one of his recent posts, "the guns are already coming to bear" on the current establishment from many directions, but we have to start loading and firing at some point in order for them to have an effect.

          Again, absolutely everyone, keep emailing relevant conversations on here which you agree with into circulation among the general public. I cant stress enough the importance of getting these thoughts and ideas in front of the general population so that they can consider and understand them as well, and this is exactly how we have brought things to the point where we have thus far and why they are aware of the problems and solutions and ready to make them happen if they can be organized to do so. Email forwards are a geometric progression and there is absolutely nothing that banks can to do stop them, so here is how it works. Most people know some social butterfly like my ex wife who has 1000 people on their email list. When i send one of our conversations to her, the following day its in the hands of 1000 people. Assuming an only moderate success rate with about 10 % of those reading them and forwarding them on to a 100 more, 10,000 have it the next day, 100,000 the following day, a million the day after, 10 million the next and theoretically 1/3 of the population the following day and they just keep circulating back and forth from there until everyone has seen it. This is one tool which we need to use for now and the one thing we can do which no one can prevent. Each and every one of us can do this as individual citizens, without the need for any organizations to work though which can and generally are corrupted by the power which would prevent this, and which will be capable of motivating the combined action from all of the individual citizens which for the same reason cannot be corrupted as well, in order to bring about an incorruptible solution after they themselves have destroyed the power which always corrupts. In other words, Banks !

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        • Guys, we need a way of channeling interest and support to a central point. What´s better then to lead them to the mastermind himself, Mike Montagne (www.perfecteconomy.com)

          If there is anyone in this world i put my trust in regarding real solution, it´s in Mike. He has the intellectual setup and expereince to lead us in the right directions.

          btw: Had to change my login to Jake as posts from Jack are no longer tolerated?!

          You better keep supporting RP David or the same will happen to you.

          David, i did send you an email so please respond to either Mike or myself.

          Keep it up

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        • Hi Jack;

          Okay here's what your probably running into with your posts, your either getting hit by the duplicate comment thing or the system just goes down sometimes and doesn't accept any post, so it could just be that. To my knowledge no one has ever tried to censor anything on here and its always been a free discussion at least as much so as the bots and the electronics allow it to be. If your trying to paste text into a post paste it to a simple txt file first and repaste from there on here, that's another remedy i've found with some of the quotations i've used, sometimes there seems to be some formatting which the system here can't deal with in other things. They system does have a lot of glitches and i've run into them many times as well.

          In terms of Mike, i absolutely agree, of all of the people out there he is the one who has gotten all of the essential elements right. Zarlenga has tried too but just as you said there's only one oar in the water as he understands the concept of a free public currency but is trying to figure out how to make it work with banks and it can't. If anything is going to work then whoever makes it work will simply have to get it into their heads that we don't need banks and figure out how to make it function without them, otherwise it wont. Mike understands this.

          I think we've all done a pretty good job already of getting the simple concepts of a free and working economy in front of people and making them understand that it is banking which is their enemy and the root cause of all of their problems, they've all figured that out by now and are angry enough at the current situation that it should be possible to motivate them to act before too long. We do have allies in congress, and we have several prominent congressmen in office from both parties who are thinking along similar lines as we are as well and are not going to be presidential candidates at any point, so they can get away with saying what they think much more so than Ron Paul can. Dennis Kuchinik is one who has been very vocal on this issue and i have quoted him in one of my posts. He has been talking to Zarlenga, now he needs to be talking to Mike so that both he along with any other congressmen they can drag in on this can actually progress toward getting it right once we as a population can finally collapse the power which would prevent this from happening.

          The people need to understand the concepts, which they already do, and this is what i've been putting my efforts into and every one of us who agrees with them are perfectly capable of presenting these to them as well just as we have been doing all along. Those in office or running for office need to understand the details of making this work, and these are exactly the details which Mike has been working out as well. While we are in the process of getting the people behind something which can actually work for their benefit, Mike if possible needs to be trying to establish contact with those in office which could and would be able to help us do it from their end as well and working with them toward making it happen.

          I believe Mike already has some experience in the political arena, so hopefully this wouldn't be a problem for him to establish such contact and this is the best distribution of effort that i could see, with everyone working toward accomplishing this thing with what they themselves do best and hopefully coordinating everyone's efforts toward the same objective. Would be good if Truthseeker could get in contact with Mike and the two of them start working together on this as well, his intelligence and education would make him imminently qualified to do so too and he's in full agreement with the objective. I'm sure that Mike could use and would very much welcome the extra support.

          Also its been suggested on here before, and for the general population, it would be good if someone could somehow set up a central depository of information where we could save all of the relevant discussions on the subject from here in a single place so that people wishing to study the matter further could go there and do so as well, it could be as simple a thing as a yahoo group, or maybe it could be coordinated somehow with Mike's site as well. I still have copies of all the threads i've emailed into circulation since the beginning, so i could forward them to anyone who wants to work on this as well. There's probably several others who have more from what they have forwarded out as well in their sent email as i know that i haven't caught nearly every relevant discussion. Hehehehe, we could even post some interesting posters and t-shirt art that people could download and distribute in their areas in order to increase the already existing terror of the population in the banking and political establishment even further. Would be an interesting thing for a banker to go shopping at Wal Mart and see half of the people in there wearing something with a graphic description of what needs to be done with him, can you imagine the effect ?.

          Also i checked that email and didn't have any messages from you, just to make sure its wekilledthebank@yahoo.com , so try resending it. I may have mistyped it as well the first time around, i don't use that one often. If anyone wants to work on the information depository contact me there as well and i'll respond from my regular email and send you the relevant posts i have on file here as well, LOL there's lots of them so be prepared to be inundated all in one shot :)

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        • My posts are under moderation.

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  12. http://i2.ytimg.com/bg/ACzTBd5WSiV-1mhcRERKiA/112.jpg?app=bg&v=4cbc08db

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  13. Good relevant post Douglas;

    According to the Constitution it is the duty of government to "To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof", then to "To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes". (BTW if the supreme court were to rule on the term "coin money" it would be to in any manner create or issue money in any form, and not restrict them to using certain substances as claimed by some. Any state issued money, from the people to the people, is money, anything not issued by the people to the people is debt and not money).

    I see absolutely no reference to any involvement of Banks in this process, yet the entire process has been abrogated by congress to private banks.

    They do have the power "To borrow money on the credit of the United States" but without the restrictions of bank debt or finite currencies there should be no need to do this. They do have the "Power To lay and collect Taxes" but again with our modern technology and production capacity and without the restrictions of bank debt or finite currencies there should be no need to do this either.

    I guess what makes me wonder the most about the sanity of so many of our so called Fiscal Conservatives, is that they simply don't understand that since the only possible way for any form of currency to come into circulation under the current system is in the form of debt created by banks (because congress won't create money for us to trade with instead), if we try to pay all the debt which is owed to the banks (notwithstanding the fact that there isn't anywhere near enough debt currency in existence to do this) and if we don't create more debt to put more debt currency into circulation (and hence make the problem even worse), then what are we to use as a means of trade ? Why are we experiencing the current economic hell we have been subjected to in spite of the fact that our production capacity has not changed one bit and we are right now, this very minute, capable of creating an abundance of useful prosperity for ourselves greater than has ever been experienced in human history ? Because Banks, Debt, and Interest have consumed our means of trade and we can't get more back without creating more debt and making things even worse.

    Kill the banks, seize their assets and return them to the American people from whom they have been stolen, declare all bank debts null and void and force congress to do its job and provide us with our means of trade and manage it for our benefit, according to the United States Constitution instead of abrogating it to banks. How do we force them to do this ? Again, kill the banks which through bribery and corruption, have established government in their service so that control of government must revert back to the people and exist in their service instead.

    It seems a simple thing and i just don't understand why so many people keep beating their heads against the wall trying to figure out how to function in spite of a problem which can't be fixed and will never allow them to do so, when they can simply get rid of the problem and no longer have to deal with it. It makes absolutely no sense to me whatsoever, but i guess that's what happens when people trust and believe instead of think. The only definition i can think of for a normal person is someone who is absolutely terrified of having to think and needs someone to tell them what to do. I'm just glad that so many have been removing themselves from that category over the past half a year of so, and there have been a great many who have done so as well, enough that we have a chance i think.

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    • Hi David,

      I wouldn´t say that debt is the problem, but rather the irreversable muliplication of debt BY INTEREST.

      With MPE, debt is not multiplied beyond the circulation or remaining value of indebted assets.

      To pay debt obligations exceeding the remaining value of indebted assets (through interest/usury system) sets off a perpetual cycle of re-borrowing and multiplication of debt. Merely to maintain a circulation, we must borrow again so much as we have paid beyond the original circulation which was equal only to the un-multiplied debt.

      With MPE neither production or consumption are impeded by imposition of extrinsic cost. In every transaction, production is traded for equal production.

      So long as we make such a circulation available to production, no impediment, limitation, or inequity whatever are imposed upon production or commerce.

      Production and commerce are fully expedited only by a completely liquid and effectual currency.

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      • Hi Jack;

        Yeah this is simply a matter of terminology, we're saying the same thing in different words, and understand that the single and only problem is Banks and interest, making debt terminal.

        MPE is describing debt as the value of the goods or services which the currency is created to pay for and i'm simply saying that the currency needs to be created to pay for the full value of the goods and services, hence satisfying what MPE terms as debt without interest, in exactly the same manner as MPE proposes.

        Same thing, different terminology and it all comes out to just as you say:

        "neither production or consumption are impeded by imposition of extrinsic cost. In every transaction, production is traded for equal production.
        So long as we make such a circulation available to production, no impediment, limitation, or inequity whatever are imposed upon production or commerce. Production and commerce are fully expedited only by a completely liquid and effectual currency."

        Seems like the the only sensible definition of a working economy to me, and what could work otherwise ?. Nothing else ever has.

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      • Jack, what production does government produce then?
        Excluding interest, the net deficit for the year was roughtly $1 trillion.

        If we look at purely physical terms, war (and the military), which is entirely funded by the government, is net destructive (consumption of commodities, destruction of vehicles, wear and tear on assets that are economically non-productive). Just given that, government cannot be a positive net producer.

        Currently everything (and more) of government output is produced by (inputs of):
        1. taxes
        2. borrowing
        3. eminent domain confiscation of private property

        If government does not produce anything on net, if it created money (interest free) to fund spending (wars, roads etc), how does that money ever get repaid?

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        • Jack doesn't understand the concept of interest. That's his problem. Having gold or money or any form of monetary base doesn't necessarily give you power, since you need to trade it with someone in order to get them to produce something for you. If they're not willing to work for your gold or they demand a higher price for their work, then you're not as powerful as you might think. Which is a check on power in itself since it keeps people humble and fair in a free-market society. You only have so much to trade. He also seems to think that interest creates more debt. Well, if you spend like the government and never pay it back, default, and are bailed out by new money creation from a central bank, then yeah, it does. Same thing with your credit cards, and that's no one's fault but the person not paying the bills. Money deposited in a bank is treated as a good, a service. When you borrow that good, you have to pay for it, which is where interest comes in. That doesn't in itself create more money, like he seems to think, but instead it forces the person who is borrowing to go out and work a little more to accrue more capital to pay the principle and interest back. That little bit extra that he has to work is paying the bank for allowing him to borrow the money to pay for whatever the borrower chose to purchase. So you work for the principle, and the little extra on top you have to work is so you can pay someone for letting you borrow their money. So there is no extra money created, since you provided a service in return for the interest you had to pay back.

          What he means to advocate is abolishing a central bank that has the power to manipulate interest rates, create money out of thin air, and bail people and banks out. When you bail people out, they are more likely to default on their payments, as they can increase risk at the chance of reaping higher benefits, knowing that if they default, the losses will be socialized with society. But if there was no central bank, fractional-reserve banking would be limited to the amount of reasonable risk a bank would be willing to take, because they would have to liquidate instead of being bailed out if they made bad business decsions. Therefore, no extra money would be created.

          Jack, it's simple artithmatic. Borrow 1, pay back 2, go out and get the extra 1 to pay back 2 by working a little more to make up for borrowing 1 so you have 2 at the end of the life of the loan. What you're doing is borrowing an extra 1 against future labor. The 2 was always in the economy. The person borrowing had to provide a service through their labor and talents to go out and earn it away from someone else. And where did the depositer - these so called oligarchs - get the 2 in the first place to give to this borrower? They had to work and produce a good and sell it to someone else to accumulate that wealth.

          It's a simple concept, Jack, you're just thinking too hard. That's your problem. Get away from the conspiracy theories and realize that gold is worthless unless someone is willing to work for it, and when they work for it, the gold changes hands. Consumers and the free-market prevent people from accumulating too much power, because there is a threshold on the amount of work they are willing to trade for currency. This is what drives down prices and allows people to climb up the economic ladder. It allows you to become as prosperous as you want, as long as you're willing to work, make sound decisions, save, and invest. You're not against banking, you're just against central banking and the current system banks and lenders fall under. That's why we should abolish the Fed.

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        • Brian and 777, keep up the good posts. I'm glad at least a few of us here understand money, interest, and economics.

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  14. An Austrian individualistic anarchist-capitalist society without a state and where the money represents gold cannot long continue to function on that basis. There will soon come a concentration of power in which a small group of powerful individuals (oligarchs) take all the power because they have more gold than the rest.

    A private bank or a George Soros will become the actual power of a state and build a private army to protect its interests. This will lead to a power struggle among the oligarchs until a few of them are in control. There is nothing to prevent this because all individuals with less capital and less power will be employed by the oligarchs out of self-interest, or develop criminal activities out of frustration and needs.

    Ultimately, you will have a feudal society. And ultimately this will change into a different form of society. Ideal societies do not exist and people will always try to do things out of self-interest, and there will always be people who fight for power and control.

    But Mathematically Perfected Economy solves an important issue, because capital is accessible to everyone without interest if he / she are creditworthy and with the collateral as backing (our labour and produc(tion). This will push the capital oligarchs out of the game and they cannot impose their will by just having capital, and therefore gain unlawful and undeserved (usury) profits, because that capital (our true medium of exchange) is freely available subject to compliance and the conditions as laid out before.

    This preventive approach will be a major shift in which everyone has equal opportunities with a much broader social base in which crime out of frustration will largely disappear.

    If we accept anything less we will fail (again)!

    Or in Benjamin Franklin´s words: JOIN, OR DIE

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  15. It´s the Interest, Stupid!

    Interest is being payed by people borrowing money and received by people
    having loads of it. So it is per definition a wealth transfer from poor to rich.

    This is the hidden tax that nobody is talking about.
    This is the yoke that we carry.
    This is the worst kind of slavery, because it is slavery without even realizing it.
    This is interest and let it never be forgotten.

    This is our mortal enemy and let us never take our eyes of it again, until it is
    thrown into the fire of hell, together with the usurers enslaving us with it.

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    • Making your point Jack;

      This is an excerpt from a post i made a long time ago, at that point it seemed everyone had pretty much figured out the idiocy of tolerating these bastards, but it seems there are more now who haven't figured it out yet, so here goes. The cost of Banking.
      ____________

      Everyone knows the current situation through their own experience, and I have a nephew who works as a police officer in a city close to me here, and his situation would be typical of the vast majority of people living and working in most American cities. His gross salary is around $ 40,000 a year which would equate to about $ 3,300.00 a month. Out of that, over $ 2,000 goes to the bank every month in mortgage / interest payments on his house so that he can maintain a place to live and will for the next 30 years. Of the $ 1,300 that’s left, assuming a 20 % income tax level, another $ 600.00 goes to the government so they can pay the banks for creating the currency they need to function which they should have created for us and themselves, leaving him with $ 700.00. Of that $ 700.00 another $ 49.00 goes up in sales taxes to fund the state government who also loan the money for their operations from banks. Of the $ 651.00 that’s left at least $ 100.00 a month goes up in property taxes which he has to pay in order to keep his place to live, which goes to the county and city government which again loan the money for their operations from banks. This finally leaves him with only $ 551.00 to spend and inject back onto circulation in order to generate useful production which can benefit himself and the rest of us.

      Total Monthly earnings:
      $ 3,300.00
      Total consumed by banks and because of banks in order to buy power and ownership over America and its population for themselves:
      $ 2,749.00
      Total being spent into the economy to generate useful production for the benefit of the American population:
      $ 551.00

      This is what we got, and that is what the banks got. Is there one single F’ing idiot anywhere can still believe and can try to explain how such a system can be sustainable, or possibly benefit the people it is intended to serve ?

      What would the standard of living for each and every person in America be today if we didn’t have banks and the governments they establish in their service, who neither build anything, fix anything nor feed anyone, consuming 5/6ths. of our capacity to pay for and generate useful production for our own benefit ?

      6 times what it is today.

      Whom does the current American economy and political establishment exist to serve ?

      I’ll leave that for everyone to answer for themselves.

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      • Yep, and hopefully the numbers you presented speak louder than words.

        Thanks for doing that.

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      • You say $2000 goes to the banks a month in mortgage. No one made you take on that mortgage. And $600 goes to the government which goes to the banks to the create the currency? The Fed creates the currency on its own. Your $600 goes to social programs, defense spending, and anything else that involves public spending. You all blame banks. That's not the problem. The problem is what the Federal Reserve ALLOWS the banks to do by encouraging a system of fractional-reserve lending, artificial interest rates, bailouts, and out-right money creation without the benefit of production. You all are failing to ask the fundamental questions, and instead are blaming ghosts that don't exist.

        And if you're so worried about where your money is going after being deducted from your paycheck, there's a simple answer to that. Get rid of the income tax.

        And your numbers a little exaggerated. If you make $3300 a month, you should have a mortgage that is no more than $1600/month, and that is borrowing the maximum amount without car payments and credit card debts. So if you borrowed that much on a $3300 a month income, then you're setting yourself up for failure and that's your fault. Not the banks. So if you have a mortgage that is that high a percentage of your monthly income, then you set yourself up for failure. The banks didn't make you sign the paperwork.

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        • Your missing the point though Brian. If those payments, that interest, is public as it was during Franklins time and put right back into circulation i order to fund public services then people would in at least some way or form be getting some benefit from it and it would remain circulating for their benefit as well instead of buying ever more power and ownership over them by banks.

          There just is no defense of Banking, the numbers just don't work and the end result no matter now you calculate it is always the same, they end up with it all and we end up with nothing, while they have contributed absolutely nothing of any tangible value. In other words its theft, plain and simple.

          Suggest you look at the sheer volume of foreclosure notices in your local paper to realize the gravity of the conseqences before speaking in their defense.

          I suggest also that the only motivation i can think of for anyone to defend the concept of banking at all is that they are in some way involved in making money with money, and there are a whole lot more people who are trying to exist by doing something useful instead who's productive effort has been pretty much consumed by the former. There are a whole lot more of them than there are of you and they've all figured it out, Ben Franklin would be proud.

          Ending the fed solves nothing, Andrew Jackson already did that, he killed the central bank but didn't kill the rest, what do we have today ?

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  16. The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

    To borrow money on the credit of the United States;

    To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;

    To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States;

    To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;

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  17. Your comments about inflation and deflation not existing are jokes right? A gold standard will cause inflation. pegging the dollar to hard assets we have less of WILL devalue the currency.

    Bleeding out overproduction of circulation will cause the currency to weaken because too much gain was made out of the currency to support itself. Some production is good but where we are today is bad. non-interest banking's capital isn't self-supporting and will continue to be a false hope for the economy.

    by the way, as long as being paid and spending equal out is a weak justification of inflation and doesn't solve anything. You're just not addressing the problem because it hasn't been problematic. Its like saying it's ok for a murderer to keep killing family members as long as you keep getting more family members.

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    • sorry i misread your comment…yea you’re right a gold standard won’t “solve” inflation. To do this imo would require a weakened dollar to create a manufacturing base back in the US, and more true capital gains. However, no-one will want to be a grunt worker after the economy fully recovers and unemployment by factories reduces total unemployment back to 5%. Thus restarting the cycle of office work.

      I say we grow our economy with weapons contractors and start invading countries. Our gold standard will be to seize gold vaults.

      Interest is ridiculous, inflation or deflation will determine what your money is worth. credit never screwed up any economy.

      If Ron Paul means disbanding national banks to weaken the power banks have then I wouldn't mind that. but he hasn't specified whatsoever.

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    • U.S. history since 1971 does not support your assertion that the gold standard would cause inflation, just the opposite.

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    • Interesting statement Spiral;

      "Its like saying it’s ok for a murderer to keep killing family members as long as you keep getting more family members." You've defined in a single sentence the function of an economy which exists to serve a parasitic infection, in other words Banking, and the only way to sustain any meager form of production in it is to continually add more debt to make up for the interest which consumes the means of trade and hence the tangible wealth to the extent where it is no longer possible for the population to produce enough to service the debt which we have reached today, and "the children wake up homeless on the continent that their fathers conquered" (Thomas Jefferson).

      GB is dead on as well in that if the economy were to be capable of growing under Austrian Economics, it would have to exist in a state of constant deflation and aside from AE tolerating banking which makes it unsustainable to begin with, this is just as bad and probably worse than inflation, as it buys power for banks based on an accumulation of the currency with no useful contribution to our productive effort, again killing off that productive effort even faster than Keynesianism (at least now they can add more debt and inflate the currency in order to try to get some small form of production moving again, and i expect we'll see the bulk of the next round of inflation when the debt becomes due instead of now when they put it in). Again "the children wake up homeless on the continent that their fathers conquered" (Thomas Jefferson), only it happens even faster this way.

      We do need to get things right this time and make it possible for them to work, and in order to do that we need to get rid of all the banks, big banks, little banks, central banks, each and every bank, as they are the single and only factor which guarantees an economy to be unsustainable. Money cannot be business, it needs to exist as a standard and public means of trade for business otherwise it cannot perform its only useful function, we do need to think and figure this out.

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      • Your a true thinker David.

        The Paulian/Austrian solution is to try and take away the top of the pyramid (the fed), and leave the remainder of the pyramid intact. Will that destroy the pyramid?? NO

        Mathematically Perfected Economy (our mandate) will take away the whole pyramid from top to base.

        The interest on OUR Medium of Exchange being issued (at whatever rate) is the whole damn problem and we need to get rid of it.

        So if it is in their sincere interest to offer solution why is it then that they are not offering any? Even worse, they are just offering more of the same to keep the current terminal usury system running.

        WHY?
        Because any purported economy subject to interest will terminate itself under insoluble debt. As interest multiplies debt in proportion to a circulation, ever more of every existing dollar is dedicated to servicing multiplying debt, and ever less of every existing dollar can be dedicated to sustaining the commerce which is obligated to service the multiplying debt. Everything around you can be understood from the obvious consequences.

        There is only one viable solution:

        As this is the very set of principles — and the only set of principles which ensure the immutable value of money across its lifespan — a perpetual 1:1:1 relationship between remaining value, remaining *obligation*, and currency in circulation —.

        Anyone capable of doing the math can only agree.

        I AGREE COMPLETELY WITH YOU. WE DO NOT NEED BANKS. THEY ARE THE PROBLEM AND ANYONE SUPPORTING THEM, AND WE NEED TO ROUT THEM OUT!

        JOIN, OR DIE...

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      • Thanks, David, but I didn't mean to imply that under gold we would have deflation, either. My understanding is that there would be neither. Weren't deflation and inflation both non-issues from the start of Bretton Woods till 1971?

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        • Hi GB;

          No there's on implication necessary, its simple arithmetic. If under a gold standard and economy is to expand then it must exist in a constant state of deflation due to a finite amount of currency to trade with, i expect that instead of that it would most likely just stagnate. The stagnation won't last more than 10 years though, because under the Austrian terms the Rothschilds will simply loan an equal quantity of their gold into circulation and at 10% interest in 10 years we will have no more gold, at which point the economy will no longer exist, much like it is today.

          We need to be thinking in terms of something that we can actually make work instead of believing that some form of currency can magically make that happen. We have to design and build a system on purpose that can work and must work. First and foremost we have to get rid of banks so that the economy can exist to serve and promote useful production and prosperity for the population instead of serve a parasitic infection that consumes the means if trade in interest and uses that to buy progressively more ownership and power over our government, industry and resources to the point where they have it all and there is nothing left for us.

          This is the first country in the world where people are actually figuring this out before its too late to do anything about it, and their figuring it out en masse and all at once it seems.

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        • Gold would fluctuate due to supply and demand. You wouldn't run out of gold, but consumer prices would change due to the amount of people in the market - as the population increases - in relation to the amount of gold, or dollars backed by gold, in circulation. What would stay a constant is your purchasing power. That's what these "great thinkers" aren't thinking about. You could save your way to retirement if you really wanted. If the price of gold went up, prices would go up. If the price of gold went down, prices would go down. So your purchasing power would always stay constant. This would allow you to stuff your savings away without ever losing your purchasing power.

          It's really that simple. David and Jack are looking too deep to see the answer in front of their face, trying to confuse an argument and probably confusing themselves in the process.

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        • I agree, Brian. Price deflation need not equal monetary deflation.

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  18. The Austrians/Paulians tell you, that they want a return to Constitutional money; and to sound money. No bigger lie can be told!

    Why not? Check out their forums. Gold bugs everywhere; and what they want is NOT for gold to return to its Constitutionally defined value! They want to make out like the Federal Reserve!

    Worse then is the lie that they want to “end the Fed.”

    Why? As I have described, the fatal fault of the imposed monetary system is interest; and all further faults merely result from further failure to solve inflation and deflation. The Austrians, and Mr. Paul in particular, not only advocate interest; they advocate ELEVATED RATES OF INTEREST.

    Effectively, what they want is to remove the embossed letters which now say “Federal Reserve Bank,” and replace them with “Ron Paul’s ‘COMPETING’ Bank(s)” — a principle which he refuses to debate, further define, or justify. Of course, any ostensible “competition” would ostensibly, on the contrary, drive interest rates down. But Mr. Paul tells us that we wouldn’t have borrowed ourselves into this debt mess if higher rates of interest had discouraged excessive/reckless borrowing.

    Mr. Paul has never done the math: he tells you that all of you are going to benefit somehow therefore — oh and we so willingly believe this preposterous notion, don’t we? — he tells us we will benefit paying perhaps 17% interest on our homes than 5%. Sounds really like a good idea, doesn’t it? Especially since the rate of interest is the rate of multiplication of artificial indebtedness — higher rates of which instead necessitate greater rates of borrowing to maintain a vital circulation.

    Unfortunately, most people who exalt Austrian “economics” hardly know the first thing about it. They reject math — most of which is little more than counting — as if you could understand otherwise; and they could have possibly determined solution otherwise. In no legitimate discipline or walk of life does such reckless abandonment of principle hold.

    But Mr. Hayek, God of the Austrians tells us why they advocate interest and the current banking model — which are our very problem. See Hayek’s article at Mises org: “A Free Market Monetary System,” I think it’s called. Anyway, he thus justifies interest, that it makes banking “an extremely profitable business.”

    That’s right. There IS no justification, just an outright confession of the motive.

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    • agreed interest from banks needs to be increased and interest to banks needs to be decreased to make up for the bank's own non-interest gains.

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      • If it is in your sincere interest to support solution why is it then that you are not offering any? Even worse, you are just offering more of the same to keep the terminal system running. It´s the interest, stupid.

        There is no mystery to projecting the pattern of failure engendered by any purported economy subject to interest. As interest multiplies debt in proportion to a circulation, ever more of every existing dollar is dedicated to servicing multiplying debt, and ever less of every existing dollar can be dedicated to sustaining the commerce which is obligated to service the multiplying debt. Everything around you can be understood from the obvious consequences.

        There is only one viable solution:

        As this is the very set of principles — and the only set of principles which ensure the immutable value of money across its lifespan — a perpetual 1:1:1 relationship between remaining value, remaining *obligation*, and currency in circulation —.

        Mathematically perfected economy is a currency not subject to interest, comprising a debt financing all permissible enterprise, paid by each and every debtor exactly as they consume of the associated production.

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    • You've already been told, Dr. Paul doesn't want elevated interest, only market interest.

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      • That´s what i said: Of course, any ostensible “competition” would ostensibly, on the contrary, drive interest rates down.

        And i also told you that any rate of interest will have a terminal outcome on you, me, and everyone else.

        Simple question:

        Where is the interest coming from on your gold backed money brought into circulation by your competing banks???

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        • "Where is the interest coming from on your gold backed money brought into circulation by your competing banks???"

          Simple answer:
          From those who pay it.

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    • You must be confused.

      "they advocate ELEVATED RATES OF INTEREST."

      No they don't. They advocate market set interest. Remember supply and demand? lol

      Whether the rate they advocate is higher or lower is RELATIVE to whether the current rate is set below or above the rate that would be chosen by the market.

      If you can't tell the difference between elevated interest and market-set interest then it's easy to see why you are so easily convinced that the MPE is the solution to all problems.

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  19. The Austrians/Paulians tell you, that they want a return to Constitutional money; and to sound money. No bigger lie can be told!

    Why not?

    Check out their forums. Gold bugs everywhere; and what they want is NOT for gold to return to its Constitutionally defined value! They want to make out like the Federal Reserve!

    Worse then is the lie that they want to "end the Fed."

    Why?

    As I have described, the fatal fault of the imposed monetary system is interest; and all further faults merely result from further failure to solve inflation and deflation. The Austrians, and Mr. Paul in particular, not only advocate interest; they advocate ELEVATED RATES OF INTEREST.

    Effectively, what they want is to remove the embossed letters which now say "Federal Reserve Bank," and replace them with "Ron Paul's 'COMPETING' Bank(s)" — a principle which he refuses to debate, further define, or justify. Of course, any ostensible "competition" would ostensibly, on the contrary, drive interest rates down. But Mr. Paul tells us that we wouldn't have borrowed ourselves into this debt mess if higher rates of interest had discouraged excessive/reckless borrowing.

    Mr. Paul has never done the math: he tells you that all of you are going to benefit somehow therefore — oh and we so willingly believe this preposterous notion, don't we? — he tells us we will benefit paying perhaps 17% interest on our homes than 5%. Sounds really like a good idea, doesn't it? Especially since the rate of interest is the rate of multiplication of artificial indebtedness — higher rates of which instead necessitate greater rates of borrowing to maintain a vital circulation.

    Unfortunately, most people who exalt Austrian "economics" hardly know the first thing about it. They reject math — most of which is little more than counting — as if you could understand otherwise; and they could have possibly determined solution otherwise. In no legitimate discipline or walk of life does such reckless abandonment of principle hold.

    But Mr. Hayek, God of the Austrians tells us why they advocate interest and the current banking model — which are our very problem. See Hayek's article at Mises org: "A Free Market Monetary System," I think it's called. Anyway, he thus justifies interest, that it makes banking "an extremely profitable business."

    That's right. There IS no justification, just an outright confession of the motive.

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  20. It’s impossible to solve inflation OR deflation with a gold standard. If represented wealth is less than the representative reserves, still, no precept prevents you from suffering a circulation exceeding the reserves, particularly if you further subject debts to interest.

    But this objection is largely only hypothetical, because generally, on the contrary, the real danger is suffering a restricted circulation (deflation). As industry and production tend to grow, you are deprived of the further circulation which you need to sustain that industry, if and when it exceeds the monetary reserves. So the more real (practical) fault is it cannot solve deflation. But even worse, is its further fault, that if it coexists with interest, it can’t solve terminal failure, or perpetual subversion of the *disposition* of the currency, that as interest inherently and irreversibly dedicates ever more of every unit of the circulation to servicing falsified, artificial debts, versus sustaining the desired industry. It means nothing to pretend solution then, unless you have answered for all three faults: inflation, deflation, and disposition.

    Mathematically perfected economy is a currency not subject to interest, comprising a debt financing all permissible enterprise, paid by each and every debtor exactly as they consume of the associated production.
    There is no inflation or deflation, as the currency in circulation is always equal to the current value of existent production across however much of the economy is supported by a circulation.

    Neither the value of money or assets are altered by changing proportions of circulation to indebted assets or services. The value of the money is always consistent in quantity — both in earnability and spendability — with the remaining value of the indebted assets which exist, for which it was issued, and which constitute its immutable value.

    The remaining circulation is always sufficient to pay off debt. Further production therefore is not impeded by a deficient circulation, deplenished by paying more than what circulation was introduced to finance the production.
    Debt is not multiplied beyond the circulation or remaining value of indebted assets.

    To pay debt obligations exceeding the remaining value of indebted assets sets off a perpetual cycle of re-borrowing and multiplication of debt. Merely to maintain a circulation, we must borrow again so much as we have paid beyond the original circulation which was equal only to the unmultiplied debt.
    Neither production or consumption are impeded by imposition of extrinsic cost. In every transaction, production is traded for equal production.

    So long as we make such a circulation available to production, no impediment, limitation, or inequity whatever are imposed upon production or commerce. Production and commerce are fully expedited only by a completely liquid and effectual currency.

    Mathematically perfected economy is no more than a singular prescription, dissolving unjust intervention.

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    • but production for production isn't relative to what's going on right now. In essence, where there is one bank, no inflation or deflation, then yes this works. over-production off of circulation is inflation. Interest is now almost relative to inflation. Your argument is essentially saying inflation or deflation doesn't exist when you look at 100% of currency after the fact. This is the premise of in or deflation. Everything equals out in the end, however stretching ends to means with debt CREATES inflation and deflation. if the system must restore itself towards the end, the value of quantity changes from start-end.

      Your argument works in limited scenarios. You are not addressing overproduction of non-interest related circulation. When you bleed production out of circulation, the value of whatever is being circulated will decrease to equal out what was gained. Our economy has a large non-interest banking sector which will not produce true capital.

      a gold standard will create inflation. This is a fact. We have less hard assets than paper assets so pinning the dollar to gold will de-value the dollar.

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