Ron Paul: Don’t allow the Fed to destroy our money!

399 Responses



A Spooked Economy in October

by Ron Paul

Last week we received worse than expected unemployment numbers, challenging recent claims that the recession has come and gone. Also, as the economy continues to suffer the after effects of the Federal Reserve-created bubbles of the last decade, there is renewed interest in gold. Fears that the Federal Reserve will pump even more money into the system had caused the price of gold to reach new highs. Also contributing to enthusiasm for gold is continued instability in the banking industry, symbolized this week by fraud allegations that have caused many banks to halt foreclosure proceedings, thus further destabilizing the housing market. Yes, October has a reputation for being a scary month economically and this month is shaping up to be frightening, as well.

The Fed has been wreaking havoc and devaluing our monetary unit steadily since 1913, and greatly accelerating it since the collapse of the Bretton Woods agreement in the 1970s. This severing of the dollar’s last tenuous link with gold allowed the Fed to create as much new money as it pleased, and it has taken full advantage of this opportunity.

In 1971, Gross Domestic Product (GDP) was $1.29 trillion. Today it is $14.6 trillion, nominally. But adjusted for all the inflating the Fed has been doing, it is only $2.73 trillion, which constitutes only a 1% real increase per year! So with all this extra money going around, we may appear nominally wealthier, but the reality is, we have barely moved at all. This is unfortunate especially for the prudent, conscientious savers, whose nest eggs are constantly being devalued. Unless of course, they have saved in something out of the Fed’s reach, like gold. While the economy has basically been in a holding pattern against the leeching of wealth by the Fed for 39 years, gold has seen an inflation adjusted increase in value of over 5% per year, if measured in 1971 dollars. This is due to the Fed’s ability to make dollars plentiful. And yet, this is the only tactic the Fed can come up with to rescue an economy already devastated by “quantitative easing”, as they call it.

The turmoil in the housing market demonstrates how disastrous it is to flood the economy with fiat money. Latest events with foreclosures are good examples of mistakes made in the market, in this case, by the banks, in the rush to soak up manipulated currency. This is why the truly free market depends on sound, honest money, free from false signals of artificially low interest rates.

The government finds ways to spend money even faster than the Fed can create it, bringing our national debt well past the point of the taxpayers ever being able to pay it off. Other nations who, in the past, have eagerly bought up any amount of debt we produced are now starting to resist. We are reaching a crucial point at which the dollar will no longer function, and in the absence of a functioning dollar, restoring sound money will be the only alternative.

The truly scary notion is that those in power might allow our system to collapse so chaotically to the detriment of so many people rather than simply obey the Constitution.


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399 responses to “Ron Paul: Don’t allow the Fed to destroy our money!”

  1. madmankitchen

    I THINK THAT THE AMERICAN GOVERNMENT SHOULD USE ITS WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION ON THE AMERICAN PEOPLE BEFORE THEY USE THEM ON OTHER COUNTRIES.

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    1. AJ

      WHERE ARE YOU FROM ?..CUZ NONE OF US, HERE IN AMERICA, ARE IN FAVOR OF THE FORIEGN POLICIES OR DOMESTIC LAWS BEING ENACTED BY THIS ADMINISTRATION OR THE LAST ONE !! THE COLOR OF SKIN CHANGED IN THE WHITE HOUSE, BUT THE COLORS THAT MATTER, ARE NOWHERE TO BE SEEN ,…RED , WHITE, AND BLUE !

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  2. 2020CHITOWN

    We need to force the big banks to eat the fake unsecuritized debt and let the treas and the fed figure it out. The American people need a fresh start. No new taxes, no new austerity measures such as qe2.

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  3. 2020CHITOWN

    I believe this could be the man who will stop the New world order/ bilderberg group. We need to fight for him to get elected. I think he is our only real hope in this country right now. The shadow Govt. will try like heck to defeat this man. We need to do what we can to help him. GOD BLESS AMERICA!!!!

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  4. 2020CHITOWN

    I believe this could be the man who will stop the New world order/ bilderberg group. We need to fight for him to get elected. I think he is our only real hope in this country right now. The shadow Govt. will try like heck to defeat this man. We need to do what we can to help him. GOD BLESS AMERICA!!!!

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    1. AJ

      I AGREE WITH YOU COMPLETELY ! I’M FROM CHICAGO TOO. I AM A GUNG HO, HARD AZZED, WARRIOR . BUT, AFTER TAKING THE TIME TO LISTEN TO PRESIDENT PAUL, EVEN WARMONGER ME, KNOWS ITS NOW TIME TO PULL OUR SONS AND DAUGHTERS, AND OUR MOTHERS AND FATHERS OUT OF DANGER AND BRING THEM HOME, NOW !!
      -END THE DRUG WAR AND SECURE OUR BOARDERS !
      -REMOVE THE PATRIOT ACT AND GIVE EVERYONE ALL THEIR STOLEN FREEDOM BACK !

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  5. TruthSeeker

    Hi David,

    I got your personal email and saved it. Stand by; I will be contacting you just in time when things are ready. Thanks my man.

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  6. TruthSeeker

    Hi everyone,

    Last night I was tuning to Coast-to-Coast radio and there was a guest engineer who was talking about the hyper -dimension of this universe, and the conscious and spiritual energy in it which amounts to the presence of a High Intelligence and how all the good forces are coming together in what seems like a divine orchestration NOW towards a major change. It is absolutely fascinating and good tidings. Check it out on Coast-to-Coast website and try to order the transcript from the archive. Another guest followed who talked about the present corruption and how the public is now much more aware, getting fed up, and hence ready for change. So check it out and enjoy.

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    1. David

      Hi TS;

      Yeah, this is great, and this is what i’m seeing too. Per a discussion i had with James awhile back, the guns are coming to bear on the culprits from every direction and the loading and firing is about to commence from which there will be no escape. It’s amazing the absolute volume of stuff which is appearing toward the objective at this point and how the entire population of the world is coming to understand and get behind the objective as well, and all at the same time.

      We are going to usher in the very much needed economic renaissance, destroy the power which has always prevented it, and usher in a new era of absolute freedom and rich and abundant prosperity for our populations so far beyond comprehension that the best or what we have ever experienced will seem like the dark ages in medieval europe by comparison.

      Expecting were going to end up with another Independence Day celebration too, one from King George and the second from the Banks who owned King George and our current political establishment and dictated their actions. Its about time the job became complete as well.

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  7. Jack

    We are NOT Keynesian, We are NOT Austrian, We are NO communists/socialists,………………

    We are People for Mathematically Perfected Economy….

    We do NOT accept pretended economy, we do NOT accept pretended economy on steroid´s….WE ONLY ACCEPT TRUE ECONOMY AND FREE ENTERPRISE.

    By the People, and For the people

    Join us in the real revolution!!

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  8. TruthSeeker

    My pleasure Jack!

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    1. Jack

      Have a look here and the math a..hole citizen presented. It´s hilarious and we immediately understand why he is arguing so ignorantly….what a sheeple!

      I couldn´t even be bothered to explain that the banks can buy hard assets with the new money and that debt is not the problem which would proof our case all the further.

      http://www.ronpaul.com/2010-11-05/ron-paul-the-fed-serves-the-bankers-interests/comment-page-1/#comment-141467

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      1. David

        Hi Jack;

        Yeah, and this is the problem too. When profit is earned with productive effort, that effort is returned to the population in exchange for the profit and thus the more profit made, the more productive effort returned and the whole thing can simply continue to grow exponentially.

        With Banks taking profit from the loan and control of currency and returning no productive effort, then using that profit to buy ownership and control over the corporations they sponsor, applying political and economic pressure through the control of government established with their control of currency, and restricting the supply of currency available for trade, they end up shutting down independent business in competition with them and owning and controlling ALL THE MONEY, ALL THE INDUSTRY, ALL THE RESOURCES, AND THE ENTIRE POLITICAL ESTABLISHMENT, and establishing themselves in a position of absolute power over everyone and everything where they exist as our lords and we as their serfs, where no one can exist except at their mercy.

        Call it communism, socialism, feudalism or whatever you like, but this is the end result. You’ve seen it happen, i’ve seen it happen, and everyone in American will see it happen if they can’t get it through their heads that we need to kill all the banks. Big Banks, Little Banks, Central Banks, each and every Bank.

        Am just very glad that most of them have figured it out already, that gives us a chance.

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  9. TruthSeeker

    Exactly a hundred years later, another great US president who was determined to work for the people was also assassinated by the same banks cartel mafia. So what does that tell you Douglas? Besides the fact that the money cartel has been around for so long and is not going anywhere, it tells us that we the people have been living in the dark for so long, have been used and abused, and most dangerously protective of the status quo. I am not too worried about the few bastards who have all the gold vaults because when the right moment arrives and the people wake up, they will hide underground with their gold in their secret vaults, but what I am worried about is how can you convince the masses to stop self-victimization? How can you tell them to stop protecting the status quo? What a misery that the money cartel managed to take that sovereign authority away from the government to create money and claim it to themselves? What an outrage that I can not seem to get over? How in hell was that possible to delegate? The only answer I have is that our treasonous bureaucrats are part of this money cartel because no fool would fall for that and continues to claim dignity and pride. This is what we need to stir up to the people to start pushing their so called representatives just to let them know that we are the people in charge and this is our nation. There is no place for the treasonous in our nation. There is no place for the criminal money cartel to run away. The whole world is not big enough for them to hide in

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    1. Douglas

      1963: On June 4th, President John F. Kennedy signs Executive Order 111110 which returns to the United States Government the power to issue currency, without going through the Rothschild’ owned Federal Reserve. Less than six months later, President Kennedy is assassinated.

      So now what? Shall we all just fantasize and reminisce about what we think Monetary Policy should be and how it should be managed? Or should we take a practical approach to changing it?

      Well, than should we be worried about catching a bullet? If this is a concern then we should decide if we are realistic about this challenge or just entertaining the idea.

      What wealth now is left unto the masses that truly makes it valuable? What sovereignty is recognized by the forces that now own and control the wealth of all the Nations? What sanctity is inviolate among the inhabitants of the World? What future do we intend to leave behind for our children?

      Will you consider these things and not fear a bullet? Will you fight with all means of your will to resist these forces?

      If so, then you are a true ‘Warrior’ against the ‘Satanic Forces’ behind the Rothschild Zionist World Domination Agenda!

      25 years ago as a young teenager I was very disturbed at my own realization, one that I conceived on my own without any indoctrination by anyone! It was easy for me to see what was taking place by decoding the lies implanted in the ‘US Public School System’.

      Of course I was terrified at the magnitude of this and felt powerless to stop it. Furthermore I spoke myself blue in the face and found that no one could comprehend what I was saying. So now what Truth Seeker?

      Do you want to fight with me or not? Or shall these posts of ours only amount to a sporadic release of frustration?

      Let us not disappoint our creators by becoming subservient to forces that have desecrated the wonderful beauty of evolutionary biological and ecological EFFORTS. Let us court these forces and show them the respect they deserve thus earning the right to their Ultimate Power of Preservation.

      As I searched for the answer I found it. I found too the true’ Quest Ut Deus’ which includes the understanding of the Angelic Legions that are responsible for ‘Evolving’ all life on Planet Earth. Then I found the Archangelic Forces responsible for ‘Evolving’ our Solar System and Sun. Then, in climax, I found the Galactic Forces that govern the organization of various Solar Systems.

      I am here to tell you all that we are ALL Gods Children and a have the ‘Equal Opportunity’ to take part in the Eternal Expansion of the Universe if we but just so choose. The US Constitution was established to allow each and every individual the opportunity to do so!

      »crosslinked«

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      1. Douglas

        Important Correction:

        Let us not disappoint our creators by becoming subservient to forces that have desecrated the wonderful beauty of evolutionary biological and ecological EFFORTS. Let us recognize the true ‘Evolutionary Creators’ and show them the respect they deserve thus earning the right to their Ultimate Power of Preservation.

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      2. TruthSeeker

        Hi Douglas,

        I said it before and I will say it again. I would rather die a hundred times than endure the oppression of this tyranny. I am not afraid to die. In fact, I look forward to die for a noble cause because sooner or later we are going to die anyway. A man that has nothing to die for has nothing to live for. This is out of the question Douglas. The bigger question though is do we have the public on our side or we are just going to be labeled as a ring of trouble makers? The question is not about bullets and guns; the question is about using our moral and political authority to change this system. We are the people the sovereign, not the few satanic elite. When the people rise up en masses and present to the ruling elite our right to execute our demand by all means possible, then we are in business. Anything short of that will be a loss for all of us. Few guns and bullets will never make up for a true revolution— a revolution that is based on the moral and political right to make a demand to the government of the people, by the people, and for the people. I hope I am making myself clear on that. So what we do now? We and each one of us start recruiting neighbors, friends, co-workers, family, and anyone we could win to our side. Educate them and present to them clearly what we are trying to do. We are not a secret gang or a violent ring that is trying to break the law. To the contrary, we are trying to restore the law and the liberty to the people that has been under attack of decades. Our biggest weapon is the Constitution and thank God for that. Otherwise you and I would be tracked by the elite mercenary intelligence as we speak, would be charged with criminal activities, and we would be all over the media tomorrow morning. Remember our movement to reform our power structure or rather to put an end to it is not just a national one; it is international. We have millions on our side all over the world that are waiting to help and be involved; and they will be marching with us in the road to freedom.

        We are not wimps and we are warning all those who are planning to attack our resistance that the people on our side; our military, our police force, our intelligent community. We are coming forward and hard this time with an awful might of moral authority and unprecedented determination.

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        1. Jack

          Your on the right side the right way TS. We need many more people like you.

          This sort of conviction the m..f..ng austrians will never have because they know they are on the wrong side of the battle….

          We´ll make them f….rs JUMP

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    2. David

      Fantastic Discussions Guys;

      Everyone copy and email out these threads and get them into circulation where people can see them, this is good stuff and what people need to see.

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  10. Douglas

    After Andrew Jackson ‘KILLED THE BANKS’ Rothschild had to come up with a new plan on how to take back control of the United States Monetary System. Thus, the culmination of the American Civil War was established though typical ‘Zionist’ deceptive diabolical intervention.

    President Lincoln is desperate to find a way to finance the war and asked Colonel Taylor to come up with a solution. Upon his request Colonel Taylor reported.

    “Why Lincoln, that is easy, just get Congress to pass a bill authorizing the printing of full legal tender treasury notes and pay your soldiers with them and go ahead and win your war with them also.”

    Lincoln responded with concerned whether or not the People would accept these notes. Taylor replied;

    “The People or anyone else will not have any choice in the matter, if you make them full legal tender. They will have the full sanction of the US Government and be just as good as any money, as Congress is given the express right by the US Constitution.”

    (NOTE: Of coure at that time the Nations of the world were not at all as co dependent as they have been designed to be now.)

    So, Lincoln did get this bill passed and printed 450, 000, 000 worth of NEW Greenbacks. The plan worked so well that Lincoln later stated:

    “The US Government should create issue and circulate all the currency and credit needed to satisfy the spending power of the Government and the buying power of the consumers. The privilege of creating and issuing money is not only the supreme prerogative of Government but it is in the Government’s greatest creative opportunity. By the adoption of these principles… the taxpayers will be saved immense sums of interest. Money will cease to be master and become the servant of humanity.”

    (NOTE that when the word ‘Government’ is used Lincoln is speaking about all the powers of US Government ‘Checks and Balances’. Without ‘Checks and Balances’ the Government could NOT effectively issue and sustain sound Monetary Policy.)

    President Lincoln is re-elected on November 8th and on November 21st he writes a friend the following,

    “The money power preys upon the nations in times of peace and conspires against them in times of adversity. It is more despotic than monarchy, more insolent than autocracy, more selfish than bureaucracy.”

    Article Vancouver Sun, May 2 1934 Speech report of General G. McGeer

    “Abraham Lincoln, the murdered emancipator of the slaves, was assassinated through the machinations of a group representatives of the International Bankers, who feared the United States President’s National Credit ambitions.

    There was only one group in the world at that time who had any reason to desire the death of Lincoln.

    They were the men opposed to his national currency program and who had fought him throughout the whole Civil War on his policy of Greenback currency.”

    This is a classic case of what the Private International Banking Families FEAR the most. Like that of the original US colonies paper money system that represented the EFFORTS of ALL the People and that of the ‘Continentals’ that were printed and supported by the Faith of the People’s EFFORT to fight the US Revolution.

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    1. David

      Hi Douglas;

      Love these posts, absolutely fantastic, its good to see you getting involved with TS as well, both of you have an awful lot of talent toward this and were getting some fantastic discussions here. Hope everyone is pasting these threads into emails and getting them in front of the public to consider, this is exactly the sort of stuff we need to motivate the action toward the end result.

      I guess Lincoln made the same mistake as Jackson did, they took control of the the public currency itself, but did not take control of its management on behalf of the population, again leaving things open for private banks to corrupt what they had established.
      ……………

      “The government should create, issue and circulate all the currency and credit needed to satisfy the spending power of the government and the buying power of consumers … The privilege of creating and issuing money is not only the supreme prerogative of Government, but it is the Government’s greatest creative opportunity. By the adoption of these principles, the long-felt want for a uniform medium will be satisfied. The taxpayers will be saved immense sums of interest…” (Abraham Lincoln)

      An editorial in the London Times reveals sentiment of the European bankers,

      “If this mischievous financial policy, which has its origin in North America, shall become endurated down to a fixture, then that Government will furnish its own money without cost. It will pay off debts and be without debt. It will have all the money necessary to carry on its commerce. It will become prosperous without precedent in the history of the world. The brains, and wealth of all countries will go to North America. That country must be destroyed or it will destroy every monarchy on the globe.” (London Times, 1865)

      By the end of 1863, Congress had authorized the printing of US$850 million worth of Greenbacks. Private banks used these Greenbacks as bank reserves, against which the issued their own bank notes and demand deposits. Over the course of the U.S. Civil War the money supply went from $45 million to $1.77 billion. Prices subsequently skyrocketed.
      ……………….

      Seems like everyone is getting it right this time and again, we’ve already presented the first step toward making it happen, which if promoted sufficiently might be the only thing we need. If not we’ll keep going until it does.

      http://www.ronpaul.com/on-the-issues/fiat-money-inflation-federal-reserve/comment-page-68/#comment-139472

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  11. staceyqfan

    Time for a real change but Hey if the fed wants to abandon gold std and make it illegal again, Then buys it up and then reinstates it later, at a higher price(as in the 1930′s) making it more valuable, would the dollar have more worth? Or maybe the GLOBAL economy won’t allow it?
    I vote for an audit of the fed as well

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  12. staceyqfan

    Time for a real change but Hey if the fed wants to abandon gold std and make it illegal again, Then buys it up and then reinstates it later, at a higher price(as in the 1930′s) making it more valuable, would the dollar have more worth? Or maybe the GLOBAL economy won’t allow it?
    I vote for an audit of the fed as well

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  13. Jack

    We the people object to an Austrian individualistic anarchist-capitalist society without a state and where the money represents gold. Such society cannot long continue to function on that basis. There will soon come a concentration of power in which a small group of powerful individuals (oligarchs) take all the power because they have more gold than the rest.

    A private bank or a George Soros will become the actual power of a state and build a private army to protect its interests. This will lead to a power struggle among the oligarchs until a few of them are in control. There is nothing to prevent this because all individuals with less capital and less power will be employed by the oligarchs out of self-interest, or develop criminal activities out of frustration and needs.

    Ultimately, you will have a feudal society. And ultimately this will change into a different form of society. Ideal societys do not exist and people will always try to do things out of self-interest, and there will always be people who fight for power and control.

    Mathematically Perfected Economy solves an important and very critical issue, because OUR money (the people´s currency) as a loan is accessible for everyone (who complies with our democratic choosen conditions) WITHOUT INTEREST.

    If he / she is creditworthy and with the product/property securing the loan (our labour and produc(tion) loans are simply issued with NO ONTEREST attached.

    This will push the capital oligarchs (austrians, bankers, and such) out of the game, and they cannot impose no longer their will by just having capital, and therefore gain unlawful and undeserved (usury) profits, because that capital (our true currency) is now available FREE OF INTEREST.

    Loans are retired out of circulation in a timely based manner as per consumtion/depreciation of the product/property where the loan was applied for, and the money is destroyed/deleted from the system.
    No inflation, or deflation. And most of all: no terminal failure!!!

    This preventive approach will also be a major shift in which everyone has equal opportunities with a much broader social base in which crime out of frustration will largely disappear.

    This is the only solution. If we accept anything less we will fail (again)!

    Or in Benjamin Franklin´s words: JOIN, OR DIE

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  14. Citizen

    Now that the Congress is mostly Conservatives

    RON PAUL…. for Finance Chair

    AND

    AUDIT THE FED take 2

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  15. David

    Cross Posting from the Sound Money Blog. Just emailed this out, subject line “More Nails in the Coffin”.

    TruthSeeker
    November 4, 2010 at 8:06 pm | Permalink | Reply

    IT IS THE INTEREST, STUPID!

    If some one can not see what interest has done to us, there is little hope in debating with them.

    There is no interest without a loan, and there is no loan without a need, and there is no need if there is justice and compassion. This interest mentality and religion was invented by the satanic cults who can not be happy when everyone has it. Need and its crisis is what give the interest market a niche. If everyone has it, no one will borrow, and if there is no need to borrow, the interest lords would be out. We know that people who support interest happened also to be anti-social equality and anti-prosperity. They keep singing about earning their money the hard way when in fact the hardest working people on this planet are among the most impoverished because they get paid the least. Who would make a better target for greed and exploitation than the poor? This realization outraged Christ himself enough to chase the bastards with a stick out of the temple!

    So who is defending the people’s interest and who is not? Let the people judge for themselves. We attest that we have no personal interest in this whole stock. We are just zealous and concerned citizens that are trying to make things better for our people. We have no gold to loan for interest, and we care less about gold. We proud ourselves in our ability to produce and trade honestly something of value to our nation. We are against drug abuse, women abuse, and money abuse. STOP treating money as a commodity!

    Daniels
    November 4, 2010 at 8:15 pm | Permalink | Reply

    TS

    “There is no interest without a loan, and there is no loan without a need, and there is no need if there is justice and compassion. ”

    Just because I recognize that we live in a world with scarcity doesnt make me against people of need. I wish we still lived in the garden of Eden where all our wants and needs were completely provided for us. But since we got kicked out, the reality is that there is scarcity in the world. The only way to eliminate scarcity is to be as productive as you can possibly be. The way to be productive is to utilize capital goods. Imagine all capital goods dissapeared instantly, how much corn could we grow? How many cars could we build? not many. There is scarcity. Deal with it. This is no utopia.

    David
    November 4, 2010 at 8:35 pm | Permalink

    Yeah and then since there is absolutely no possible way for our basic means of trade to come into existence without the creation of a loan and interest, We the People are completely and totally F*U*C*K*E*D left right and center while you insist on defending the parasitic infection which makes it so. How the hell Daniels, you miserable F*cking a**hole, do you expect people to be productive when they have no means to trade what they can produce with each other ?

    The way to eliminate scarcity is for the people themselves to simply issue themselves their own means of trade in sufficient quantity to exchange all that they can do. There is no reason for scarcity and we are fully capable of producing 30 times what we ever have in the past given the simple means to trade for it, and the single and only thing which can prevent this is abundance is the very parasitic infection who continue to defend which has always consumed that means of trade so that they can’t. There can be no scarcity except that which is artificially engineered by Banks and Interest. Period !

    Seems an incredibly simple thing to figure out for anyone with a brain who’s not a banker and no one is stupid enough anymore to believe any banker who would pretend things to be otherwise.

    Anyway, for the rest who can figure this out, come help us do something about it so that we can finally be as productive as we should have been all along:

    http://www.ronpaul.com/on-the-issues/fiat-money-inflation-federal-reserve/comment-page-68/#comment-139472

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  16. Jack

    Still working on the math Daniels/Citizen?

    bump…

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  17. TruthSeeker

    Hi guys,

    What happened to the notes that could not be produced into evidence to secure foreclosures? They say the notes were lost. WRONG! They were destroyed. The question is WHY? Here is the answer:

    http://www.realecontv.com/videos/banking-malfeasance/the-paperwork-wasnt-lost-.html

    And we are supposed to trust banks and financial institutions? Huh! I said it before trusting them is like trusting the fox on your chicken coop! Anyway, who cares? They already got the bailouts, the criminal elite that are allowed to be above the law. Next time you break the law, do not forget to tell the judge how unfair life is!

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  18. Jack

    Austrian & Keynesian Theories Vs. Mathematical Facts

    George Orwell’s classic 1984 describes “doublethink” as holding two contradictory beliefs simultaneously and accepting both. To do so denies the existence of objective reality. A good example is the belief in economic theories that contradict mathematical facts.

    Both Austrian and Keynesian economic theories hold fundamental beliefs that do not square up with math. The exponential growth of debt in our debt based money system is ignored and refuted by both theories. In place of math, we are offered beliefs such as the “quantity theory of money.”

    To deny the exponential growth of debt cuts to the very core and credibility of monetary theories. If the exponential growth can be proven, then equally, Austrian and Keynesian theories are dis-proven. Economic theories hide the fact that a debt based money system is usury by definition and neither Austrian nor Keynesian theories are sustainable. Both systems create bankruptcies and defaults while enriching banks at the expense of the people.

    The inherent and terminal mathematical flaw of debt based systems can be proven anecdotally. Our total money supply (M3) is around $15 trillion while our national and private debt total around $55 trillion. How do we pay an existing $55 trillion in debt with a total of $15 trillion? We are short $40 trillion, where will that money come from?

    In our debt based monetary system there is only one way to add money and that is through new debt. Eventually, the $40 trillion must be borrowed. If the money is borrowed, it will add new debt of over $40 trillion (principal + interest). The debt can only grow, it can never be repaid as the gap between money and debt will continue to increase.

    The two economic theories will try to explain away this reality by claiming that the velocity of money can be increased so that a given amount of money can be used for more transactions. This is true when we spend money but it is not true when we repay debt. When debt is repaid it is extinguished, that is that the money ceases to exist which means that money can only be used to repay principal debt once. Most of the interest debt returns to circulation but never the less, the gap between money and debt will still increase since only the principal is created through new debt which brings new interest.

    The specie of money doesn’t matter. If our money were backed by gold, the gold would simply be transferred to those who collect the interest. We saw this in 1933 when the gold standard collapsed and we lost most of our gold.

    The two prevailing economic theories give us a false sense of choice just like the two party system of Democrats and Republicans. The science of money has been replaced by a belief system just like in the dark ages when science was dominated and defined by religious beliefs. If the next renaissance is to happen, it will come when the science of money displaces unfounded beliefs.

    We are suffering from an intellectual amnesia. The Babylonians of antiquity understood the destructive power of debt interest and at one time Christianity and Judaism forbid it as sinful usury. The Islamic faith still forbids debt interest and perhaps that is a reason that we are clashing.

    Our debt based monetary system is a form of usury that will result in the transfer of all wealth from the many to the few. The intended outcome is debt slavery and tyranny under the cruel boots of oligarchs – a financial aristocracy.

    People are becoming discontent and they sense that something is terribly awry. To rebel against the status quo invariably leads to another tyranny as we have seen through democratic elections and third world rebellions.

    If a successful peoples revolution is to happen it will really be an awakening. A higher consciousness where we come to understand how and why the game has been rigged by flawed monetary theories.

    Jack

    Note: For real solutions stop by Mathematically Perfected Economy, Mike Montagne- discover the difference between irreversable multiplication of debt by interest and wealth based money – take the red pill.

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    1. David

      Jack, am reposting the responses to this from the other blog, they belong here too. Thank you for such a clear and concise demonstration of the absolute stupidity and inviability of what all of this idiocy proposes.

      TruthSeeker
      November 3, 2010 at 5:22 pm | Permalink | Reply

      Hi Jack,

      You are exactly right: “The two economic theories will try to explain away this reality by claiming that the velocity of money can be increased so that a given amount of money can be used for more transactions. This is true when we spend money but it is not true when we repay debt. When debt is repaid it is extinguished, that is that the money ceases to exist which means that money can only be used to repay principal debt once. Most of the interest debt returns to circulation but never the less, the gap between money and debt will still increase since only the principal is created through new debt which brings new interest.”

      There is one and only one function for interest and that is to proliferate, continue, and dramatize the cycle of debt. This is so simple knowledge that my 15 years old son knows when he receives his monthly credit card statement as he continues to pay only the minimum which is only the interest, while the principal debt never changes.

      As for the theory of money velocity, has this been quantified in some mathematical formula? And if so under what ideal circumstances it can be used to chase and catch up with the ever increasing debt? The problem with our reality can never be solved when we are in so much debt that even our ideal productive and trade capacity can never make up for the difference. I just got done watching a funny video clip someone submitted today. In the video, they talk about “slack capacity” which I understood it to be the irrelevant growth in productivity which we are capable of achieving, but nevertheless worthless, like continuing to build homes when we have too many foreclosures and too many vacant homes that can not sell. That was presented from the Austrian view which I must agree with, but when combined with the money velocity theory, it has the adverse effect of failing to increase the money supply through the fast circulation of money because less relevant capacity will be used in narrowing the gap between debt and actual worth of our money. So even from the Austrian point of view, the result of the money velocity theory would not help under these circumstances. I must go for now, but I will look at other points you made Jack. Thanks again for the post.

      David
      November 3, 2010 at 5:59 pm | Permalink | Reply

      Hi Guys;

      Jack, TS. these posts are fantastic, simple functional, hard scientific explanations of the idiotic problems we face due to the idiotic systems and theories which are in place today.

      To your post TS, i’ll add one thing, if interest does all come back into circulation with fair distribution among the population as it did in Franklin’s time, then it is no longer much of a problem as it is still there to continue to fuel the general trade of the population. Under current conditions though, when it does come back into circulation it does so to buy power and ownership over our public corporations for banks to the extent where they end up establishing control over all of the production by concurrently using political power established by their control of the debt and economic pressure to shut down all business in competition with them, at the expense of the population to the extent where nothing is achieved except at the mercy of the banks, and no one can work or produce except as employed to do so by the banks / bank sponsored socialist police state.

      Under the current circumstances, its bad when our means of trade is siphoned out of circulation by interest, and even worse when it comes back into circulation at the hands of the banks who charge the interest. No one can win except the banks who create the debt, and it is about bloody time that they were wiped from the face of the planet so that everyone else finally can.

      Guys i’m forwarding these posts into circulation in their proper order so that people everywhere can benefit from the discussion. LOL have to laugh at Daniels too, he needs to defend his precious banks so bad, he still tries even in complete and total denial of the simple arithmetic, hoping that someone will believe him because he claims to be an economist LOL :)

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      1. Jack

        But what´s puzzling Danny & Citi,…….. is the nature of the game!!!!

        http://endtheecb.ning.com/video/rolling-stones-sympathy-for

        Rolling Stones – Sympathie for the Devil…

        Rock on Austrian Gnome´s!

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      2. Jack

        David, thanks my man. If you have time could you please email me everyhing you gathered so far, if any.

        Cheers

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  19. Citizen

    I agree….
    You MPE “dogs” need to go bark somewhere else where your Marxist Progressive Economics (MPE) ideas might get more bite than just bark.

    Congressman Ron Paul, is a Libertarian AND an Austrian Economist!
    AND WE, here on the RonPaul.com site, SUPPORT Dr Paul.

    So you know you have no converts to gain here.
    Now move on and preach your Marxist Progressive lovefest elsewhere.

    Woof woof woof!

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  20. Jack

    That Caterpillar plant is building in Texas because of poor regulation, low taxes and cheap labor. Ron Paul – try living on $10 an hour. This is your free market at work.

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    1. Citizen

      Yea that’s just awful!

      Let hear it..
      Davis-Bacon wages for the people. $35/hr for everyone!

      Yea that will make Caterpillar competitive, sure!

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  21. Jack

    I know, i must be insane…lol

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    1. David

      Hehehehehe, hi Guys;

      Well what were seeing is the typical reaction of the other half of humanity when they fear they are going to be exposed for what they are, which generally involves trying to shift blame and accuse their opponent of what the are guilty of themselves.

      Unfortunately it is too late by now as that exposure happened long ago, and any 6 year old child can understand the simplicity of our demonstrations along with their abject failure to demonstrate how what they propose is simply not a final plot to allow the last of our remaining wealth and property to be consumed in its entirety by the Rothschild Bank of England.

      People simply have more brains than they give them credit for.

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      1. Citizen

        David,

        I believe you really meant that:
        ONLY a 6 year old with almost no experience and with little common sense would try to pawn MPE off as some romantic new world economic order.

        Your reasoning is adolescent and over simplified at best. MPE attempts to erase economic axioms well documented through the centuries with simplistic hostile childish language of fear mongering.

        I’m sorry, but nothing the four of you (Jack/Jake, TS, David or Michael) have said contains any tangible evidence to suggest that this MPE scheme is anything but a half baked and obviously disillusional monetary scheme, only suitable for use in La-La-Land

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        1. TruthSeeker

          Hi guys,

          Could I ask for a favor? Please do not respond to the foes on this blog. Let the dogs bark and let the caravan proceed. We have no more time to waste on people with suspicious motives. Remember we are not dealing with money issues here, only personal issues and hidden agendas. We let them have the final word, and we told them that they are free to practice their way, yet they keep coming back as zombies who have nothing else better to do. Under such circumstances, the ideal thing to do is IGNORE and IGNORE. Thank you all in advance.

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        2. Jack

          The theory is that the barking will stop when the dog realizes that it’s ineffective. So if the dog is barking to get your attention, ignore it. Don’t open the door, don’t pick up the toy, don’t go get the leash. In practice, it’s hard to ignore a barking dog, and in fact when you start to ignore it the dog may bark more (at first). Be patient. When the dog finally does realize that barking no longer works, he will try something else.

          The extra attempt at barking when you ignore it is called an “extinction burst” and it’s the exact same thing you do to an elevator button when it stops working. Instead of going immediately to the stairs, you push the button again and again, and push harder, before finally giving up.

          It´s just noise…

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  22. TruthSeeker

    Jack,

    You anti-Semitic, Communist, Netherlands, totalitarian, European, Non-American conspirator! What are you talking about? Are you trying to replace our IMF with your own CMF? You are going backwards dude! Notice that “C” comes before “I” in the American alphabets!

    Did I hear you also saying there is no need for brokers/middle men? Dare you try to kill our economy! What about that guy with the BIG beer belly who does not want to do farm work, but has a lot of seed to lend for some interest, are you trying to steal money from him? Hay that is not going to happen you anti-American! You just proved it that you also anti beer belly too! You bigot ignorant! You could not understand my smart ABZ scenario; I pinned your tail donkey-clown! Now you need someone like me to bail you out! I can but it will cost you some serious money. Hay, are you saying that you know mathematics, but you could not even understand my ABZ scenario? You donkey-clown! Hey Citizen, I love you bro! Let’s do more damage to all those MPE commies! Together, we will pin down more tails until we are in the middle of a whole crowd of monkey-clowns! Now watch out that can get really serious. How are we gona get out of the crowd when we are trapped in the crowd of donkey-clowns! Hay, you know donkeys can kick really hard. Watch out man!

    Oh, I forgot one more. Did you say zero interest? What are you out of your mind? You anti-banks, anti-liberty too!

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  23. Daniels

    Anyhow, as much fun as this is, we have done enough here to defend Ron Paul and Austrian Economics. People will see them as the communists they are. Where ever these MPE nuts go, there will be people to pop their hot air theories.

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  24. TruthSeeker

    Daniels & Citizen,

    A final word from me to you and no more after that. The dogs shall bark; the caravan shall proceed! See you at the march for freedom. I hope to see you then if you do not decide to stay home and watch TV.

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  25. Citizen

    Hello Daniels,

    I’ve not read so much verbal vomit in one place as these MPE walking zombies have driveled on this site.

    What a load of crap…
    The example of the $100k home loan for 100 years with only $83.33 dollars a month payment takes the Darwin Idiot price hands down.
    Simple economic axioms, time value of money, time preference, depreciation, in-elasticity of supply, mal-investment and hyper inflation are just some of the MAJOR details these zombies won’t address, OR more likely CAN’T address.

    No one can make sense out of MPE NON-SENSE!

    p.s.
    their latest fantasy… tomorrow the world!
    Have they not noticed that NO ONE else is here to read their snivels and drivel?

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    1. Daniels

      absolutely. Aside from ts jack david and mike, you and I are probly the only ones who have heard of mpe. Their hero mike is still stuck in the early 80s when he had his mpEpiphany.

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  26. TruthSeeker

    David, Jake, Mike, and all others who support liberty of our people,

    It is becoming clear more and more that our foes on this forum have no point to make besides distraction and diversion. Our time is too valuable to be wasted on side debates. I would have taken those debates more seriously if we did not say enough, post enough, and responded enough. It is the ugly fact of life that no matter what you do to make things clear, some folks will never get it, not because they are unable to, but simply because they do not want to. This entire dog barking does not change facts on the ground. Let’s focus on our huge crowd that needs our services. Wasting anymore time in debating the ones who have one single goal in mind, and that is distraction and diversion is not in our best interest, nor is it in the best interest of those who are currently and as we speak inside the fire. Some of those folks do not have a place to stay in tonight, some others are hungry for a peanut-better sandwich, yet some others are sick and tired of watching the serial killers and the thieves roam our streets, dominate our media, and push their lobby groups for more oppressive legislation against our people. Let’s waste no more time as that would be another insult to our people who are in need for firefighters like us while others like the foes on this forum continue to dance around the fire. Thank you. I am ready for serious work, so shoot at me.

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    1. Daniels

      Y0u’re commie paradise will never come to fruition. Efficient allocation of capital resources is critical to a functioning economy. It’s what gives you the ability to waste everyone’s time by posting on the Ron Paul blog. Without efficient use of capital===borrowing, lending, venture capital, there would be no computers or internet.

      Recess at the nut house is over. Go do something productive with your time instead of promoting communism and your CMF (communist money fabrication)

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  27. TruthSeeker

    David & Daniels,

    A word of caution though. Our opinion of what a bank should be and under what conditions we tolerate the presence of banks in our society do not form any primary compromise on where we stand right NOW from banks. As we speak, we are against banks period until we get the appropriate and official assurance that the functions of the banks are as stipulated. We are not ready for tricks of any kind. We are fully awake and mindful.

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    1. David

      HI TS;

      Yes, this is absolutely correct, and the functions which Daniels has been describing in regards to the Z example are the functions of an investment firm or broker and not the functions of a bank.

      Banks do not do this, they create debt, lend it at interest against collateral, and consume productive effort because they have nothing to contribute to it. Even if you take away their power to create debt as currency, per our example, 10 years at 10 % interest the Rothschild’s have all the gold by matching the injection. Even if they don’t inject any of their own gold once they build up a supply of ours to loan out at interest they eventually get it all too, it just takes a little longer.

      Any functions beyond the investment broker, since we need to own and manage our own currency anyway in order to make it function, maintaining accounts, facilitating transactions, etc, we may as well provide them for ourselves for free, so there is no reason to keep any form of Banking, period !

      Would certainly eliminate the scam of Chase bank putting a 11 day hold on my $ 30,000.00 check so they can try to scam a few dollars interest for themselves off my money as if they didn’t already have enough from consuming the entire countries wealth. When it was Washington Mutual, the manager just punched a couple of computer buttons and would clear them on the spot.

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    2. Citizen

      TS and David,

      It appears that there is a Thaw in the Banking debate.
      I agree that there is just cause for anger over Fed Reserve Banking practices as they are currently practiced. The FED has its tentacles entwined in many corrupt dealings, including the Sub-Prime Loan debacles.

      But ‘banks” provide the Citizens a valuable SERVICE if they work for their depositors best interests, a service of TRUST and FAITHFUL management of funds.

      Fractional Reserve Banking (FRB) is legalized theft and DOES NOT serve best interest of the depositors.

      FRB is what Ron Paul stands against and the FED is the Wizard of Fraud engaged in FRB with all of its members.

      Banks work best when they are locally owned and accountable DIRECTLY to their Depositors. Otherwise you have banking ARBITRAGE deals that damage the depositors best interests to the sole advantage of the bank managers.

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      1. TruthSeeker

        Hi David & Jake & Mike and others who are determined to free our people,

        Not only that banks are hated for charging interest, taking no risk, lending money they do not have (fractional reserve), creating fictitious money, but also abusing depositors’ money without their permission or with their naive permission to unjustly enrich without sharing the profit with depositors. This so called “management of funds” is nothing but use, abuse, and theft of profits made on such funds. How many people on this planet know what banks do exactly with their funds once the funds are made into deposits? Very very very few do! People are made to believe that their checking accounts are just sitting their in a safe place, and managed to their convenience! The truth of the matter is that such checking deposits are being lent to other consumers after being amplified through fractional reserve without consumers’ explicit consent, and such lending generates revenue to the banks only without ever sharing the profit with the depositors! This is like offering you a free safe storage for your nice BMW, but while being “stored away,” I am using it without your permission and benefiting from its use without ever sharing the benefit with you! How honest is that?

        Look, if you have any hope that banks will straighten up their SH*T, then prepare yourself for another screw. If there is hope in Satan ever repenting, there is hope in banks ever stopping the abuse and exploitation of our citizens. I love it when people create technically complicated scenarios with ABZ… and similar arguments just to state and overstate the so obvious that we have disposed of long time ago. I am not really impressed. All this debate about banks is a waste of time and energy. If someone wants the banks in our society, let them have it, but not using the force of our legislation to make laws that makes banks the true rulers of our nation. If there are some suckers who prefer to be used and abused, let them have it, we the citizens will stop the banks from having this legal power to destroy us by garnishing our wages, and confiscating our possessions. We have a moral duty to enlighten our citizens about their interest which is to be served, not to be exploited.

        If the banks want to lend money, “manage funds”, and charge interest after that, let them do so, but if one of our citizens could not meet their obligations, then the law must stay the hell out of it. The courts have no business policing the people for the benefit of the banks. That got to stop and change immediately. But all of you know if the IRS could ever go away, banks also would. This is a tough fight for all of us. Let’s not succumb into tricks and further subjugation. We are tired and enough is enough.

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        1. Daniels

          Either A: I’ve pinned the tail on you- donkey clown, B: you’re not smart enough to undersand my scenarios, or Z: you are overcome with bigotry.

          All three baby. go home, ur done. strike three back to the bench for you bud.

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        2. David

          Hi TS;

          Again clear, concise statement of facts, and exactly why we need to perform any and all necessary functions, currently abrogated to these terrorists and criminals, for ourselves so that we can do it honestly, efficiently and accountably.

          Daniels statement in regards to this simply indicates that he is determined to defend the theft and fraud at all costs and is simply unwilling to acknowledge any fact or reason as to the way things really are, so there is little point in any further discussion on the matter.

          We’ve proven our point several dozen times already, its in circulation among the people who agree for the reasons you’ve just stated, and i think its time to move on to putting our time and effort into accomplishing what they all want and need as well.

          By some divine providence and despite the continued circumstances, it seems like i have some substantial production developing here which i’ve been in dire need of too, checks should be in before the end of the week and my girl will be moving in soon after as well, so i’m going to be tied up for a little while. Election day is tomorrow, will get the declaration and demand up on the Issues blog later tonight, and let you and Jack, Douglas and all the rest start working on promoting it and reposting it to keep it at the front on here for a little while too. If we can, again by some divine providence, get it circulating to the point where the new senators and congressmen get hit with 50 or 100,000,000 of these then i think the solution is guaranteed. Its entirely possible too. 5,000 might object, 50,000,000 might still be too dumb to know the difference, 300,000,000 will agree and if 1/3 of them see and act on it over the next 6 months it may be all we have to do.

          Will keep checking in as i can, again thanks guys :)

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      2. David

        Hi Citizen;

        Yeah i agree that under these terms banking would be less damaging than it has been but it still constitutes just as i posted to Daniels “creating artificial debt by manipulating money and loaning it against collateral so that the banker, who does no work, and has no seed or anything else to contribute, can foreclose on both farmers, take their land and equipment and end up owning and controlling the useful production if there is any to follow at all. Big banking, little banking, its all legalized theft based on no work and nothing to contribute.

        In terms of private investments facilitating useful production fantastic, because they actually do that and the money invested would still have to be earned by someone at some point, but in terms of simply making money by manipulating money this doesn’t change on any level and again the little banks become big banks, were back where we started, and there still is no solution to the problem of the Rothschild’s consuming whatever hard currency we use along with the remaining 40% of our wealth and property which we still have left, in 10 years at 10 % interest. These all still remain.

        The bottom line is, that currency is an absolutely essential public necessity in order to enable each and every member of the population to trade with each other and generate private production and services for their own benefit, and if it is to do this, all aspects of the currency itself must be under public management and it must be issued in a form in which it can enable this to the greatest extent possible as well. Any function in its management and initial distribution which is currently provided by banks can be provided by the people to themselves just as easily, and far more efficiently as a simple public service. I can’t imagine any other useful purpose for an economy. In terms of government, right now we have government established in service of the banks, once the banks are gone, then the only possible incentive for government is to do whatever they have to in order to give us what we need to max out that useful trade and production to the greatest extent possible as its as good for them as it is for us.

        If you’ll forget about economics and look at and consider some of the common sense proposals which have been made toward actually engineering a system which can actually do this, i think they will make sense to you, just as the alternate currency idea make perfect sense to me as well, and i think both should be used in order to provide efficient and useful function in different respects. We just have to set it up so that we can make it work and keep it working without the whole damn thing being consumed by the same parasitic infection again. As i said to Daniels, why keep all of our eggs in the same basket, when we could separate trade and store of wealth and thus let both function efficiently and insure and secure each other ?

        Re: my own take on MPE itself, i detailed it in a post a made specifically to Jack and TS as were all working toward the same end based on the same principles, but if you want to take the time to read it you’ll know exactly what it is, and i think TS would share the same view as well. Jack is sold on it, i see that it acknowledges the two essential elements toward creating a functioning and beneficial economy, and that it contains elements which could be useful toward this end, but it is certainly not a complete solution at this point and there are a great many other things which need to be considered in addition to what it deals with. As proposed it also contains several aspects which i would find objectionable as well, although they don’t constitute anything close to the abrogations of individual freedom we are subject to today. Mike would certainly be involved in engineering a solution because of who he is, but it certainly won’t be his and his alone, and that is as it should be too.

        http://www.ronpaul.com/on-the-issues/comment-page-17/#comment-138873

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  28. TruthSeeker

    Hi David,

    Now you sound like a real bourgeois! You want others to do well so that you could do better. Ha, look at you! (Just kidding.) Yes my friend, it is all about stick it to them terrorists kind of mentality while the real terrorists…Oh God who knows anymore!

    Let’s play that clip one more time. I love it!

    http://www.brasschecktv.com/page/322.html

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    1. Citizen

      Hey Guys

      I love the clip….

      He’s describing Cloward-Piven and George “spooky dude” Soros

      “Thank You, Jesus”

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  29. TruthSeeker

    Hi Jake,

    On that note, Mr. Hayek in that very same article falls into the fallacy of circular logic. On one hand, he advocates the gold standard; on the other, he wants the value of money to be INDEPENDENT of the gold value. That is a contradiction. Gold standard simply means that the value of money will follow the value of gold which may go up and down depending on the supply and demand of gold. He further suggests that the opposite dynamics take place; that is, the money issued by private establishments determine the worth value of gold! This is blatant outrage! He basically advocates total power to create money by the private sector (violates the Constitution) as well as total control over the value of gold, not on demand-supply basis, but on discretionary power to assign the gold any subjective value the private money establishment deems appropriate! (Violates the gold standard doctrine) This is nothing short of the ultimate dream of the Rothschild and the stockholders of the Federal Reserve System.

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  30. TruthSeeker

    Hi Jake,

    Totally agree with you bro. College students should be able to buy a property they could afford while going to school. But if that happens, the minute it happens, the game will be over. This is what the oppressive establishments do not want to happen. I talk to many people in my friend and family circle and they think I am nuts for saying the very same things you just mentioned. I say to myself: Oh my God! How in hell the bastards convinced us that we deserve nothing better than what we have? Actually we have NOTHING! We have been rabid by rabid beasts. We are duplicating the oppressor. We like the victimizer so much we are in denial of their wrongdoings! Our condition is so severe that needs professional help, but not the kind which only profits from our miseries! We need to restore the confidence to all people that they are dignified without exception and that they all deserve happiness. What we are dealing with here is not just economics like what the tone of this debate has been sounding. What we are dealing with is liberty and the loss of such. We are no longer free people. We lost the taste of liberty in as much as a blind that lost a vision of the real world. We need for most to bring people to that sense of liberty. To remind them how sweet it feels to be finally free. We need them to come back with pride and determination that they are the PEOPLE, not the criminal elite which have been fostered in satanic philosophies geared towards the ultimate destruction of all mankind! We need to stand up this time to Satan and declare war on the whole camp. YES we can do it and we will be all honored to be recruited as soldiers in the fight.

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    1. Citizen

      TS,

      “How in hell the bastards convinced us that we deserve nothing better”
      This is inflammatory ENTITLEMENT rage language.

      As a conservative, I make money the old fashioned way, I EARN IT!

      Liberals believe they are entitled to wealth as their Fair Share…
      Is this your position?

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      1. TruthSeeker

        Citizen,

        Are you out of your mind? Or this is another dirty come back?

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        1. Citizen

          TS,

          I don’t think so!
          But I question your use of certain remarks typical of hostile socialist rhetoric meant to inflame the topic. It adds little substance of fact as evidence to support your theory of MPE.

          In this forum, we support Dr Paul’s END the FED agenda, his Libertarian stance against government intrusions and the currency fraud against the American people.

          But you MPE folks come along and simply bash everything Austrian and offer only disparaging remarks without proven or provable facts.
          Statements like “brain dead”, “stark idiots” don’t win friends and converts to your bizarre bank-less and interest free system of money distribution.

          The 4 of you continue to give high five kudos and lengthy self aggrandizing complements AND self proclaim victory in the debate.
          But the evidence of record shows that you’ve not made one coherent argument that stands on its own merit.

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    2. Citizen

      TS,

      Throughout history there have been similar sentiments raised and the blood baths started.

      The Rich Elite Against the Poor Masses argument typically results in a total destruction of civil order and violent revolution…
      Similar to the Kamir Rouge and the Pol Pot Regime purge of the 1980′s, All the educated and property owners were summarily executed as Enemies of the State.

      Is this what your advocating with MPE?

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      1. T

        Citizen,

        I do not like to repeat myself. You sound like someone who’s determined to create noise than present reason. I will say this for the last time: I am not against the rich; I am against the wrongdoers. Unfortunately, most of the rich today, less than 1% of the population did not earn it the hard way you are talking about. It was false money, false and excessive revenue, and false system of government that sheltered their unjust enrichment. If you have doubts about that, I really advise you to leave this forum for another that better suits your perception. We seem to be in consensus that the bankers and the elite rich (I am not talking about a guy like you who may have a million dollar from an honest small business) robbed our nation. They own more than 40% of the total wealth in this nation yet they do not exceed 1%. Explain that to me.

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        1. Jake

          Under a (finite) gold standard any interest based money system will eventually kill that gold standard.

          BUT

          Mr. Hayek, God of the Austrians tells us why they advocate interest and the current banking model — which are our very problem. See Hayek’s article at Mises org: “A Free Market Monetary System,” He thus justifies interest, that it makes banking “an extremely profitable business.”

          That’s right. There IS no justification, just an outright confession of the motive. They effectively advocate terminating their own stupid gold standard

          Austrian (pretended) economics attract the brain dead!

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        2. David

          Hi TS;

          Yes, you define the essential difference here, legitimate business makes profit by providing benefit to someone else, and the more profit made the more benefit is provided so its a win win situation.

          Banks make profit at the expense of someone else, not only on a personal but a national level, and with it accumulate power to the extent where it is only they who can win.

          This is also why absolutely no tangible arguments in regards to how what Citizen and Daniels propose can actually benefit people have been presented, they don’t exist, all they can do is say that we need banks and call anything that doesn’t involve them communism. Guess Ben Franklin was a communist too, and Thomas Payne, Patrick Henry et al., and Citizen and Daniels would be calling them that too if they were alive today as well.

          Seems like were in good company.

          Re: your initial post, yes this is the sort of stupid game/competition/envy mentality which has been generated by this idiotic system as well. Profit comes at the expense of others hence it is a good thing to inflict suffering on others and make them losers so a few can feel like winners. My dream, as a manufacturer, is to see everyone rich, because the more they have, the more useful things they can obtain from me, and the more benefit i can provide them toward my own benefit as well. If they have twice as much as me, that’s even better, as it just means more that i can contribute to them and accomplish for myself in the process too.

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        3. Citizen

          TS,

          Your definition of “wrongdoers” being the 1% uber rich appears to be more a generalization of class envy, and not ill gotten gains.

          There is all kinds of wealth.
          The Kennedys who made their fortune during prohibition running rum
          or
          George Soros who made arbitrage trades against the British Pound and made $3 Billion almost over night.
          or
          Maybe Bernie Madoff who swindled some $60 billion from his devotees.
          or
          Bill Gates made $60 Billion building a software empire

          So which type of 1% rich guys are your targeting as “wrongdoers”?
          Jeff Skilling, Bernie Madoff, Martha Stewart, etc.

          I’m suggesting the REAL swindlers are those who reside in Washinton DC, and not America’s Corporations.
          Our political system has sold the American dream by giving the FED the power to mortgage our children 3 generations into the future.
          THAT’S the real CRIME against the citizens

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  31. Jake

    Under a (finite) gold standard any interest based money system will eventually kill that gold standard.

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  32. Daniels

    Hi,

    Since we appear to be at a divide, I would like to try a different approach. Here is a hypothetical scenario I hope any of you three can respond to. Hopefully your responses need not be long. If anything is unclear please don’t hesitate to ask.

    Scenario 1:

    There exist two wheat farmers A and B. Farmer A has been running his farm for years, every year he has a big harvest, and he is able to keep enough wheat to plant his fields the next year, and sell the rest. Farmer B, for whatever reason, has nothing but a plot of land to farm on, and the farm equipment required to plant and harvest wheat. He has no wheat seed, and no money or other assets he could sell. If he sells any of his farm equipment, he will be unable to plant and harvest a crop of wheat.

    Farmer A has just harvested his crop. He has put away enough seed to plant next year.

    Question: Is it ok for farmer B to go to farmer A to borrow enough wheat seed to plant a crop the following year?

    The terms of the deal would be that A loans B X amount of seed to plant his crop the next year, and in return in one year when the crop is harvested, B repays A with 1.5X amount of seed, the additional .5X being the price A is willing to accept to forgo selling that seed in the market for a year.

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    1. Jake

      Fine by me, but why would he loan the seeds from Farmer A while he can get the same seeds (interest free) from our Common Foundry Foundation. Why would we allow to put a burden on Farmer B? Just because Farmer A has suffient funds with seeds? Farmer B is (also) going to produce wheat and the hard work necessary to do so. At the same time he will allow for competition with Farmer A which will set true free market prices for consumers. What is the added value of the interest in your example?

      Instead of trying to lend his seeds out at interest (which will not happen within a MPE model) he better start exporting his seeds to countries with food shortages and arrange a profit sharing agreement with farmers in those countries.

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      1. Daniels

        Thanks for your answer, I too find nothing inherently objectionable to this transaction. In this example the interest is simply the price the farmer is willing to accept to lend out his wheat seed for a year. The farmer is forgoing the use of that X seed for a year, and in return a year later he requires 1.5X.

        A follow up question:

        Where would the Common Foundry Foundation get the wheat seed to lend to Farmer B?

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        1. Jake

          They print it! Joking aside, they will provide Farmer B with the amount of currency to buy his seeds in the open market. As a loan, Interest free. (and yes, the money for the loan is created out of thin air), but backed by Farmer B´s credit worthiness, and his labor/product/production, and afcourse the seeds.

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        2. Daniels

          lol

          scenario 2 to follow tmw

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        3. Jake

          I appreciate what you are trying to accomplish here, but i can tell you already that we will come back to the age old discussion on what money should be (our medium of exchange), and if we should adopt one single paper/coin currency (per country), just as you have the U.S. Dollar now, but then issued and managed completely different.

          So, should we allow for one true medium of exchange free of interest/corruption to improve trade and guarantee sustainablility, or de we want competing currencies and may the best win, even tough this will result in a terminal outcome because debts are still irreversable multiplied by interest.

          Competing currencies will be a continuation of the current system with less leverage because you would eliminate fractional reserve banking by adding commodity backing. So the time window for such system will be longer than the current fractional reserve banking model, but still terminal.

          There´s more to it but let´s see where we go from here.

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      2. Daniels

        So far Jake has responded to my scenario, TS and David you have been silent, but things must move on.

        Jake, I am trying to structure my questions as specific scenarios in order understand how the world would work under the MPE system.

        Scenario 2:

        Imagine scenario one exactly, only this time there are two farmers, B and C, who need only starting seed for their farms. Let us say further that the only seed to be had in this hypothetical society comes from A, and A only has enough extra to plant either B or C’s farm, not both.

        Question: When both B and C go to the CFF for an interest free loan to buy planting seed on the market, which one of the two gets the loan?

        In this world of limited real resources, resources have to be allocated in some manor. In this particular case, how will the CFF determine whether B or C should get the seed for the farm? What internal process would they undergo to make this decision?

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        1. Jack

          First of all a correction as i made a mistake in the name CFF. It should be Common Monetary Foundry. CMF. That´s that.

          You can equal the loans where each can buy 50% of the 100% available seeds, but if Farmer B has 10 acres to plant and Farmer C 1,000, that might introduce some disparities in this solution which have to be answered for. But that’s not economy… that’s an implementation of it.

          Now, if Farmer C goes to Ron Paul’s Non-Federal “BANK” and borrows the money at interest, then, so long as we become dependent on that sector of the circulation, it eats up all the rest of the circulation over time, eventually dedicating *itself* all the remainder of the circulation to interest.

          Of course, in the spirit of freedom, we can allow Farmer C to do that. And you can do it. And TS can do it. And Citizen can do it…

          But…

          Why would you need to borrow it at interest, when we’re providing for *you* to issue it without interest?
          The only issue… is not *whether you should be able to issue your promissory note without interest*…the only issue is instead, whether you should be allowed to acquire all the seeds, or however many of the seeds, as a consequence of the limited availability.

          Now, you are right to think about this… because it’s an issue we don’t resolve in the present system. On the contrary, we allow the guy with the most money to take the whole supply — and that guy is the guy who is closest to the central bank.

          Why?

          The highest bidder will have the most free-spending “money,” and that guy is always going to be the guy who got the most… and got it for the least. He has to be closer to the core of the problem than the rest of us, because that’s where this happens to the greatest degree.
          But the issue then, is just how we divide a market… and the reason we’re even thinking about that is… we realize we’re screwed by the banking system — that the whole purported principle of supply and demand is a farce, and a destructive one at that.

          If we didn’t realize that, we’d applaud George Soros. Tim Geithner. All those kinds of people would deserve to be better than us.

          Note:

          Mike will be glad to answer every issue on the next show, in which he will detail solution… and even answer to some of the further posts you mentioned (about my explanation being too complicated for instance).

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        2. Daniels

          Hopefully I will get a chance to listen in on the Mike’s next broadcast.

          For simplicity, B and C have the same amount of land to farm.

          Yes, I agree that the CMF giving out equal loans so that B and C can buy the same amount of seed is one possibility.

          A follow up question:

          Is it the best possibility? In this example, as it happens, B is 3 times more productive at growing wheat than C. For the same amount of wheat seed he can grow three times more crops than C in a year. When making their decision about how much money to loan to B and C which determines how much seed they will get, will the CMF take their relative productivity in to consideration? Is it even a good idea for them to take that into consideration?

          If it is worth taking in to consideration, how will the CMF determine how productive B and C are relative to each other? (as you can see this does not only apply to wheat, so will there be some multipurpose system in place that enables the CMF to make these determinations? Could you elaborate on how it might work?)

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    2. David

      Okay i just have a minute here, but what Daniels is describing is a system of venture capital where one farmer provides the means for the other farmer to seed and the .5 X profit generated results in more seed to be planted by someone in order to create more useful benefit as well. If the second farmers crop fails the first farmer loses his investment too, so its done at risk.

      In terms of banking its a matter of creating artificial debt by manipulating money and loaning it against collateral so that the banker, who does no work, and has no seed or anything else to contribute, can foreclose on both farmers, take their land and equipment and end up owning and controlling the useful production if there is any to follow at all, and this is the reality of whats happening every day to farms across America as well.

      One is business and one is fraud, and there is just no comparison between the two, evidenced by the fact that the banker has nothing tangible to contribute where the farmer did.

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      1. Daniels

        This is good, focusing on more specific scenarios is helping me understand your positions.

        Ok, David, it sounds like you do not object to B borrowing from A, assuming that A takes the risk, meaning B is off the hook for paying back the loan if his crop fails.

        A follow up question for you:

        Let’s introduce Z to the picture. Z is a business man who specialises in finding people like B who need startup seed (capital) for productive enterprise, and finding people like A who already have excess seed (capital) and are willing to assume risk.

        Let’s say A and B live on opposite sides of the country/world/far away from each other. Do you object to Z locating and identifying A and B, and setting up the venture capital exchange in Scenario 1? As payment for locating A and B, Z will collect .1X when B pays back A after the harvest, and A will now get only 1.4X for loaning out his wheat seed to B. In this example is Z doing something productive? or not?

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        1. TruthSeeker

          Hi Daniels,

          I just had a moment to see that you are discussing some scenarios with David. If you would allow me to summarize position on the topic without interrupting your dialogue with David.

          We are not against all functions of banks. When a bank provides an actual service like money transfer, facilitating a transaction between two or more parties, guaranteeing the safety of a shipment or trade, coordinating a venture partnership, or being a venture capital partner with risk involved, all these are either financial contributions that society needs, or direct involvement with productivity and venture capitalism. Those scenarios are good ones. Our problem with banks when they create fictitious money, lend money they never had (Fractional Reserve), and charge interest for the so called time value of money hence treating money as a commodity instead of mere means of exchange. When a bank as a lending institution demands payment back regardless of risk and outcome, have the legal authority to garnish and confiscate assets and possessions, that’s when we have a problem with banks. Like David pointed out, liquidating a business that could not meet the financial obligations of a bank is detrimental to the entire nation’s productivity and welfare. When a business shuts down, employees are laid off, consumption of goods and services is less, and the cycle triggers yet another business failure. The longer the cycle is, the more vicious the damage gets. That’s when banks become the downfall of our economy rather than an asset thereof.

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        2. David

          HI Daniels;

          I think TS has summed up a lot of it in his post here too. No, i have no problem with the ABZ scenario either because it all functions toward useful production and Z puts in his efforts at risk as well, I.E. if the venture is unsuccessful, Z doesn’t get paid and no property or assets are consumed towards establishing Z in a position of power over A and B, so its a simple thing. Its all done for the potential benefits of useful production and all serves to facilitate this as well.

          I guess to really simplify this even more, if money simply and only represents the tangible benefits it is created to pay for and nothing else, and can only be earned by in some way. some how, facilitating the creation of such tangible benefits, then the economy becomes honest and whatever is accomplished with it must by default contribute to someones benefit as well. Its about eliminating the theft and fraud which consumes these benefits for power by considering money a commodity or business in and of itself which it can’t be.

          I’m also wide open to separating the functions of trade and store or wealth with alternate currencies as well, and i’ve been suggesting this many times before already, in which case the hard currencies wouldn’t be so much money but a readily disposable commodity which people deemed to have a secure value. As long as they are not the primary means of trade where they can be used to accomplish the latter because of their finite quantities and the existence of trade itself doesn’t depend on them, it all can work. The separate means of trade and store of wealth could function extremely well toward securing the other. Would seem a very wise thing not to put all of our eggs in the same basket too.

          The trick is just getting around established ideas and philosophies which simply cannot work and have never worked and thinking and realizing that we can indeed make things work and then just do it on purpose.

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        3. Daniels

          David, TS, it is good to see agreement that in the ABZ scenario A B and Z’s actions lead to more production.

          Forgive me for moving slow, and not getting straight to all the arguments you both have made. This progression of hypothetical events has helped us find several points of agreement, so continue on I shall..

          This next addition to the scenario might be objectionable, but read it through, and don’t be too quick to decide.

          New information:

          For this stage, I will drop Z out of the equation, so it is simply A and B doing business for grain with no intermediary, as in the very beginning.

          The difference, now, is that B has a reputation that A is aware of. B is a well known “gamer,” he plays World of Warcraft, and some think he is addicted to gaming.

          When he goes to borrow X grain from A, A looks at him, head tilted, skepticism on his face. A concludes after considering the proposition, that B would have to give him a .9X after a year if he is to invest with him. Based on B’s reputation, A thinks that he will fail to successfully grow the crops at a high enough likelihood, that only a .9X return would be worth assuming the risk of losing his X investment.

          B is not happy with this arrangement. He does not want to give A .9X just to borrow X. The catch, is that B knows that he is in control of his gaming addiction. While others think B is an addict and would not believe otherwise if he claimed it, he recently gave up WoW. Because he does not like the offer A made of 90%, B tells A that he will assume all the risk himself. B agrees that if he should fail growing his crop he will still repay A the X seed he borrowed to begin with, along with additional .1X seed to compensate A for giving up X for a year. In order to assure A that he really will do that, he puts up some of his land as collateral.

          A then agrees to the deal. Because A is not worried about losing his X investment, he is willing to loan out X to be for a much smaller return of .1X. A is happy because he is assured of getting his investment back plus 10%, and B is happy because he knows his crops won’t fail because of WoW, and that he will be able to grow a crop for a price of .1X rather than .9X.

          Is this scenario objectionable? B assumes all the risk in the investment, but also much more of the reward should it succeed. A assumes none of the risk, but gets much less of the reward should it succeed. Is it reasonable that A and B make a deal where the split the risk and reward of the endeavor so that A assumes some portion of the risk less than 100%? If yes, then at what % of risk assumed by A does the deal become unacceptable? If no, why can B not voluntarily accept some of the risk in exchange for more of the reward, especially considering B has much more inside knowledge concerning the actual amount of risk?

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        4. David

          And by complicating things beyond all reason we establish a bank. Let A keep his investment, and let B approach the people of the United States of America to obtain a collateralized loan according to conditions determined by the population themselves for issuing it, should he fail to produce the crop then his collateral can be sold to another individual farmer who will, and production is maintained and no power established to consume it. Per: Ben Franklin.

          Actually this scenario would even work as stated because A is still only collecting an agreed percentage of B’s product, not interest, with B taking 100 % of the risk, while A is providing the tangible seed which B needs to produce a crop, so were still not meeting the conditions of banking, I.E. creating artificial debt by manipulating money and loaning it against collateral by a banker, who does no work, and has no seed or anything else to contribute.

          If B considers himself capable of producing a crop, then he’d also be a fool to submit to A’s conditions when he could obtain the means to do so easily from the United States Treasury at a cost of 5 or 10 % as opposed to half, with no risk to the treasury, the people, or maintaining their useful production at all. All the more reason to make an absolutely essential public necessity, needed by each and every member of the population in order to function and trade with each other indeed public, and put it under public management for their benefit as well. It makes things easy, it makes things so that they can work.

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        5. Jack

          Daniels and others,

          Whatever A,B,……Z decide between them is fine (their trade is their (free) choice), but is irrelevant. If they have all agreed to our medium of exchange being issued free of interest and loans are obtainable interest free through our Common Monetary Foundry if one is credit worthy and loans are backed by collateral and/or labour/production.
          Loans are retired as per (non) lineair depreciation/consumption of the underlying collateral.

          There is no need for brokers/middleman because they all know where to get a loan free of interest. At the Common Monetary Foundry (CMF).

          The CMF is accesible for everyone unless you destroy your own credit worthines/having defaulted on a previous loan.

          This is not about economics, but about how WE implement these things based on just/fair principles. This cannot be decided by one person, but involves a democratic process.

          But before we can do this we need to understand the terminal nature of any interest based monetary system, then understand the only solution (and there is only one solution), and then we need to sit down to discuss implementation.

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  33. TruthSeeker

    Citizen,

    We happen to agree on many points, so apparently we have been only focusing on disagreements. I have said it many times, let’s work on the points we agree on and let’s excuse each other for the ones we disagree upon. Is that fair? We can continue our civil debate without character assassination like I said, and I do not just mean you or I calling each other idiot, moron, or ignorant. What I meant that anti-Semitic crap, and Communists, Nazis and that entire ugly staff that has been used by our real foes against our culture to silence the truth. I may call you names in the heat of the battle, but I should not smear your reputation with labels that can only be used by the foes against all of us. You know what I am talking about and there is not much need for elaboration.

    It seems to me that we are all victims of the same system and that we continue to dish it out on each other. Why not instead try to fight the perpetrator? If both of us agree that the bailout money was wrong, why do not we stand together and reverse the situation? You do not think that banks have something to do with that? I hear you keep saying that the government was the cause as if you imply that the banks were just innocent bystanders, and could have been better had it not been to the government. If that what you are saying, I fully disagree with you, but say we get nowhere with the disagreement, why not you specialize in fighting the oppression of the government, and we specialize in fighting the banks? Fact: we are against both and after both. This way, we can not cross each other, and we can not lose if one of us turned out to be right! Unless you full heartedly in support of the banks no matter what, and unless your sole presence on this forum is to defend the banks, then this should work fine with me. What do you think?

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  34. TruthSeeker

    Fair enough Daniels. Let’s stick with the issues but only if you stop using childish tactics to assassinate others character, and stop attacking persons. Stick with the issues as in attacking the message not the messenger. All you and Citizen been doing is giving each others high fives: “Oh man, we got them those communists!” Look this is so humorously ridiculous. You know we are not communists and we despise communism, but you talk like resentful widows who lost their tranquility from not having it for so long! Please get mature and we will discuss the issues. Even if we disagree, so what? You guys keep your work to your self; we keep ours. In any case, it will never be as bad as it is right now. I would rather have you instead of what we currently have (meaning what we have is the worst, LOL,) but you guys fail to see one thing. We are not ready for another screw. We are tired and dry. The people have been long lied to. They try to convince us that we have a democracy, but we do not, let alone export our democracy to other nations which they despise. We have been reduced to a bunch of liars and hypocrites. Our presidential elections every four years nothing but sheer mockery. I wonder what the Rockefellers talk about when they watch us fight over Dick and Dike! Dumb and Dumber! Slick Willie and Dick Cheney! We need a true change and we know through hard facts that the cause of all our misery is debt which is nothing but a by product of the banking industry. This is so obvious to everyone, yet you continue to debate the obvious. We should be debating how we are going to get rid of banks completely. Rather we still debate why should NOT we have banks? Why should we? What is the basic function of banks besides lending and charging interest? We need neither! We want to be self-sufficient and own our possessions, but the problem is that we are not being rewarded under the current system of money. We start our lives with debt and pass it on to our children as debt! This must end. You say that all our problems will be solved if we coin our money into gold and silver. We say even if that happens, the private banking industry will continue to control our destiny, because they already monopolize the gold and silver. What you guys trying to do is way past due. It is too late to recover the gold and silver that has been stolen from us. Unless the whole world conduct an international court of justice and try all the wealthy families and order their possessions confiscated and returned to the people, there is no hope in competing with the gold and silver existing monopolies. So were do we go from there? Reveres engineer the malice that has been afflicted upon us. The hell with their gold and silver and lets redefine the world from scratch. This may sound like it is not attainable. Think about it. Let them keep their gold and silver, and let us invent our own wheel. The true wealth is not in the stored vaults of gold and silver; it is in the power of the people to produce and make things happen. Give us another 50 years, with hard work and determination; we make more gold and silver than what they ever dreamed about. The key is: put everyone to work, but not to continue the cycle of debt. Only for true wealth, start fresh and reward everyone with real money that has no debt. Enough money that people in few years can pay for their houses, cars, shops, college education, and all other needs in cash “money.” Whatever money we agree on other than what the bastards already have and control.

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    1. Citizen

      TS,

      Far from it…
      “our problems will be solved if we coin our money into gold and silver.”
      A bullion based currency only solves the government counterfeiting issue.
      Corrupt banking practices are a LEGAL REFORM issue, 100% Demand Deposits would prevent much of the recent credit boom / bust problems.

      “lets redefine the world from scratch.”
      While I agree that we need reform… I doubt that a total redefined from scratch system might be a bit of a stretch?

      “wealthy families and order their possessions confiscated and returned to the people,”
      It may be that some of the rich have been unjustly enriched, but I don’t subscribe to the two wrongs make a right motto,
      Eating the Rich isn’t a lasting Solution they just keep popping up, and after all, one day YOU might become rich too, and then….

      FORCED REDISTRIBUTION just destroys wealth and weakens the overall national well being. The African nation of Zimbabwe (formerly Rhodesia) used to be a net exporter of agricultural goods, then the revolution came, the white farmers were killed and their land confiscated, the wealth was “redistributed” and now they can’t feed themselves and their inflation rate is 5700% per year.

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      1. TruthSeeker

        Citizen,

        We are not against the rich. We are against wrongdoers. The so-called rich like the Rothschild were the ghetto trash of Frankfurt and Hamburg. They got rich because they ripped the people off. This is a very common phenomenon unfortunately. Getting rich is a great thing and I hope to get rich one day, but I will never allow myself to oppress others and take advantage of them. Our whole system is corrupt. I look at my bills every month and I can not help but to say: Oh my God!

        My monthly income is already divided between interest, taxes, insurance, and many other financial rip-offs. Tell me that was just a coincidence and that if our government was led by Lincoln, it would have been different as long as those financial institutions retain such oppressive power. You think legal reform will solve those problems? Ha, if it was not for me being involved with financial litigations, I probably would have believed you. I am shocked to find out that our court system has become an accomplice to those financial institutions. Over 90% of debt collection industry is illegal you know why? For some reasons that when a debt collector purchases a debt that is claimed as a “written instrument”, there is no evidence of such instrument. This is clear law I am talking about. Negotiability of an instrument is dependent on whether such instrument was in writing. Again, debt collectors purchase debts in forms of bulk electronic lists that are void of any written documentation. When they purchase a debt, it is for few cents on the dollar and are allowed to reap as much as 12,000% on the investment? Could you believe that? They charge unauthorized interest, fees, and other crap that can only be enforced by evidence of a written contract. And guess what? They get away with all of that. Do you expect me to believe that judges are ignorant of the law? NO, but they are part of this rotting system which is designed to oppress the needy for the benefit of the wealthy. I have no doubt about that. That is the problem. So I say: cut off the head of the snake before the snake kills you.

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    2. David

      Fantastic TS;

      This is the kind of stuff that was written by Thomas Payne which motivated the public action which brought about the original American Revolution. You have the same talent, its going into circulation as we speak.

      Odd all the accusations and name calling and mis-associations with some form of european philosophy when were promoting the single and only thing which has ever constituted an “American” currency, created by the original “American Libertarian” Ben Franklin, and that the primary cause of Thomas Payne needing to write words such as this was the poverty created by King George outlawing this currency and forcing them to use “British” pounds Sterling in its place.

      Remember too, that one of the primary causes of the advent and success of the first Revolution were the words of a single man, Thomas Payne, which were published in his book “Common Sense” and which was the single and only book in history ever to outsell the Christian Bible. Just so you know your making a difference, and you are :)

      Once again, i repost:

      During a visit to Britain in 1763, The Bank of England asked Benjamin Franklin how he would account for the newfound prosperity in the colonies. Franklin replied.

      “That is simple. In the colonies we issue our own money. It is called ‘Colonial Script’. We issue it in proper proportion to the demands of trade and industry to make the products pass easily from the producers to the consumers…In this manner, creating for ourselves our own paper money, we control its purchasing power, and we have no interest to pay to no one.”

      In response, the Bank of England influenced the British Parliament to put a stop to this activity. Under the Currency Act of 1764, King George III decreed that the Colonists cease printing their own money. The colonial script in circulation was to be exchanged at a two-to-one ratio with notes drawn from the Bank of England. This caused widespread unemployment and economic depression in the colonies.

      “In one year, the conditions were so reversed that the era of prosperity ended, and a depression set in, to such an extent that the streets of the Colonies were filled with unemployed.” (Benjamin Franklin)

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      1. Jake

        Hi David,

        Colonial Script is almost identical to MPE with the important difference that the management of MPE can be much more effective/efficient.

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        1. David

          Hi Jake;

          Yes, and the thing to remember too, is the technology and production capacity we would actually have today as compared to then as well. Back then enormous prosperity was generated for the population with what they already had, but it took the blacksmith at least half a day in order to pound out a hammer on his anvil. If i set up to do that in quantity today with what i have in my shop now, i’d have that process down to minutes each and could produce many hundreds of times more.

          People need to realize the enormous potential for prosperity for all of them if we just give ourselves the means to produce and buy up what we can actually do. Their finished accepting what has been as they’ve experienced the end result of this and once they force the action so they can experience what can be, the results will be absolutely beyond comprehension.

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      2. TruthSeeker

        Thank you David for your kind and sweet sentiments except that what you just said would be unfortunately an insult to Thomas Payne!

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        1. David

          Hi TS:

          LOL on the contrary, Thomas Payne himself would have been extremely proud, and i would hope that some way, some how, he is in a place where he can look down on us today and see what is happening here so that he can be too :)

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    3. Jake

      Hi TS,

      Your writing is motivating for all of us. Thanks for that. There´s just one thing i want to correct if you allow me. Debt is not the problem. The real problem is the irreversable muliplication of debt BY INTEREST.

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      1. TruthSeeker

        Hi Jake,

        Thanks for the correction. What I meant to say more precisely is the exploitation of the debtor. Another I meant to emphasize is the economy mode associated with debt. Debt in itself and more so the degree of debt is not a healthy phenomenon in any economy. It should be the exception, not the rule. Our earnings in any healthy economy should be real enough as to allow us to purchase what we need without resorting to debt. We are talking about the level of prosperity herein which should naturally disallow the resort to borrowing hence debt. This may sound exotic because we have long been separated from good and sound economy we forgot what it feels like living inside one. In a healthy economy the wages, salaries, and revenue should be large enough and real enough (not credit) to cover all our needs, leave us with substantial savings, and allows for some degree of luxury. For instance, $100,000 average annual income is not out of the norm. Look at Luxemburg for instance. People there have been averaging that much. I know people in my locality who sell hot dogs and make about that much, but the problem is our system which is grounded in layers of theft. You earn $100,000, yet you pay close to 40% of that on average in income tax, property tax, and sales tax. So now you have about $60,000 left. Now you have a $3,000 monthly mortgage of which you pay about $2,500 in monthly mortgage interest, which translates to about $30,000 in annual interest. So now you are left with $30,000, and I can go on to further deduct more and show that you are left with less than $20,000 in REAL money. David has already demonstrated this scenario as well before. So in sum, we are trying to eliminate this outrageous debt which leaves you unable to buy your basic needs whether you are a consumer or a commercial investor, and people after that wonder that they worked 30 years a great job, but they could never make it easier for their children! Well, that is because of the debt style we live. That’s what I meant to say in few words. Thanks again Jake for the correction.

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        1. Jake

          TS, that´s right. Roughly between 40 and 60% of our income goes straight back into the profit margin´s of the f banks. And that is exclusive of inflation which is the hidden tax on all of us.
          It´s a f joke. We just don´t stand a chance!!
          Your right: a system of EXPLOITATION

          Debt in itself is not a problem. A new married couple should be able to get a loan to afford a home, but that´s about it. Everything else people should be able to pay for (or save for a short(er) period of time.

          For example, a $100,000 home with a 100-year lifespan would be paid for at the overall rate of $1,000 per year or $83.33 per month; and the earnings this alone would free should we implement mathematically perfected economy™ immediately, reflect the degree to which we would prosper further, without any other improvement whatever.

          But at the same time we would be financially enabled to develop and succeed in far more industry and employment, with far more tolerance for earnings and success. Even college students for instance could afford new homes during their education for far less than they might presently pay for far less substantial accommodations.

          Mr Paul and the austrians are just proposing another system of exploitation. I hope that is now clear to everyone.

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  35. TruthSeeker

    I know that your position is promoting banks, interest, and money monopoly in effect. That will not lift our nation of debt and debt life-style. All you seem to worry about is your little gold investment that you can see no one more fit to do for you than banks. My advice to you is to find a good neighbor, a good friend who has a shop like David. I know David is a man of integrity and away from this debate; you could do business with him if you want multiple return on your investment instead of letting the parasites keep the big money and give you the change. Sorry David for sticking my nose into your personal business, but trying to make the point. So Daniels, you share the profit and loss with David and you come back to me few years from now and thank me dearly for the financial advice.

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    1. Citizen

      Yo TS,

      Please, that’s NOT what I said, we Austrian Econ. followers are NOT

      “promoting banks, interest, and money monopoly”

      In fact AE is diametrically opposed to Banking Monopolies of any sort, and vehemently opposed to Government Sponsored Central Banks, i.e. the FED!

      Ron Paul and us Libertarians want We the People to OWN gold and silver CURRENCY even it it means burying it in their back yards.

      We Libertarians realize that gold or silver currency is not 100% inflation/deflation proof, but it is 100% COUNTERFEIT PROOF!
      BECAUSE
      The FED can’t print it, debase it, dilute it as it is doing now with the Fiat Notes we call money.

      I’m sorry, but we have the same amount of interest in MPE notes as we do in FED notes, that is NO INTEREST!

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    2. David

      Hi TS;

      Lol no apologies necessary, you just use me and anything i’ve posted in any way you can in order to accomplish the objective.

      I just finished a couple of hours working on a post to you and jake, re: jake’s last on the Issues blog, its long so it automatically goes in for moderation but should be up within the next day or so. Just some ideas toward getting this thing moving forward and actually accomplishing the objective.

      Been skimming the discussion here and love the way your both consistently and relentlessly presenting sound reasoning and irrefutable logic in defense of something which can actually work, and further illustrating the sheer and incredible stupidity of even considering something which can’t.

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      1. Citizen

        David,

        Please, I hope your not going to post another Doctoral Thesis to overwhelm the system again?

        You told TS…
        “sound reasoning and irrefutable logic”

        I beg to differ,
        More like…
        Lots of noise, very little reasoning.
        and
        Daniels and I have REFUTED your Marxist Logic at every turn.

        Mr. Montagne’s MPE is nothing more than Marxists redistribution of wealth, Communism Central Planning aka THEFT.

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