“My hearing went well today. Did you know that 88% of the bank bailout money through the discount window went to foreign banks?” — Ron Paul
It already has happened and America is fast asleep..
Utah has started recognizing Gold and Silver as legal tender again, the Governor passed it into law and so there are now alternatives for the State of Utah (as well as Colorado) to the US Federal Reserve note....
Indebted no longer! That, ladies and gentlemen....is our collective power. Now if we get more states to recognize the principal behind HAVING gold/silver be legal, we can get them to recognize what it means to not have a Federal Reserve at all.
Then after that we can muster the political will to arrest all these traitorous scumbags, right up through the Federal Reserve and toss them in prison.....especially when they come for a "visit" to a Gold and Silver state!
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Ron Paul, it is time to legalize Gold and Silver in specific Western states with the full backing of Military Personnel and State Governors.
This Statesman, and his group of Lawyers have the right solution to legally "abandon" the ship and let it fly off a cliff.
We MUST legalize Gold & Silver, in various states and get people on both sides to understand this loud and clear. The bubble's already popped.
We must allow JP Morgan to crash and burn, enough that Senator Rand Paul can stop any and all amendments to raise the Debt Ceiling and pull the plug on the Bailouts to these Illegal Greek subsidiaries and other absolutely appalling crooks; the politicians on both sides!
It's up to the states!!!!
Do not be afraid of the hydra called the New World Order! I can see the Statesman in Utah trembling as he pushes the Utah State Senate to legalize Gold and Silver.
Nonsense, everyone is afraid on some level!
But do not underestimate these treasonous slime!!! They can do absolutely nothing, the power lies with the states! Pull the PLUG on their gallows operation just as Utah has done by re-implementing Gold & Silver.
This is a one hundred year scam of epic New World Order proportions, a disease that must be cleansed from America. And the Congress doesn't have the guts or knowledge to do it, so let the states decide this matter once and for all.
Bring corrupt Judges before the State's respective boards of governors to hear their own criminal charges and cleanse the ranks in "States". There is no way most states will follow suit, Utah and Colorado are a far cry in the wilderness.
But they successfully placing Gold and Silver back in the people's hands, makes them not only more hospitable and desired by tourists; it puts a legal-maxim in play that the Courts won't be able to override when people begin to see just how much of a house of cards this Federal Reserve really is. Then the illegal scamming thieves of the RIAA/Federal Reserve/IMF/N.W.O have little to no options and get to watch while all their currency goes up in flames.
Then we can take over Congress, ONCE the states have retaken the law!!!
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One Fox news tickers has been hacked by a hacker. Hacker criticizes fox news for lying. Supporting the right wing party that destroys the middle class and unions.
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I jumped the gun, I thought the clock was ticking Eastern Standard Time and I am located central so this is what I received in my email inbox: Dear Michael,
Thank you for your generous donation to the Ron Paul 2012 Presidential Exploratory Committee. Your contribution to Ron will help fuel the fight to return this country to the principles that made it great.
Here are your transaction details:
Donation amount: $100.00
Transaction date/time: 2011-06-04 23:00:56
Transaction ID: 289053638
Ron Paul 2012 PEC
Still, money well donated, now I have less than an hour to decide to donate another one hundred to the money bomb, money I pledged so I really do not have an option if I want to keep my word which I will. It is all good, as Ron Paul has stated, one dollar now is worth five later. http://www.ronpaul2012.com/ please donate.
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I was also worried I donated too early, but the countdown was no longer on the sites snd they said "donate NOW", so i think it's all being counted towards the moneybomb as of 12am DC time (Eastern)
I agree with Scott, in that beings supporters of Ron Paul, as I am, we are representing him and his message. Therefore, belittling opponents is absolutely unacceptable. He is right when he says there is enough of that going on with other politics, unlike him, however, I don't believe that this only goes on on the "far left". I also feel as though he is contradicting himself by saying not to resort to that for thats what the far lefts do. That to me is unacceptable. Through my, and in all fairness, fairly recent experience around Ron Paul support sites(btw which there are so many its inspiring) I have seen a more educated, more concerned, and more mature group of supporters who really don't negatively attack opponents and I for one admire that. In my opinion many opponents(not naming names) don't need us to attack them for their ignorance speaks for itself. On the issue of so called "flooding the polls" I have to say that I am a proud supporter of the facebook page Ron Paul Polls which informs supporters of new polls to participate in. We support him and therefore should and have every right to vote. I see the lack of respect he gets in the media today(as well as of course in 08). He is either not included or brushed off when he should be one of the main focuses. If the internet poll numbers get him more attention in the media then our "flooding" has worked. Scott I think you need to understand the importance of getting his name and ideas out there, well because people don't know and won't know if we don't make signs, attend rallies, and/or participate in polls. I really do appreciate your concerns and your style and mature approach to arguing, however, find myself in disagreement. I do believe most supporters are extremely educated on these issues and have a justifiable anger in the media, and then you come along and argue that we shouldn't participate in polls. With that being said I also find your argument that we are on the same side to be misinformed and inaccurate. I personally don't believe in the left vs. right approach to politics and find it very sad that that is what America has come to. Rather, I vote for the candidate that I agree with most based on his/her principles, past experience, positions on issues, and overall character. I also believe in the past few elections it is very hard to see the difference between a left and a right winged president with them almost the same. Scott, you say you believe in debate over issues, are there any REAL issues you choose to debate in? Do you have any other concerns? What other republicans do you support and why? Are there things you feel opponents of Ron's have to better offer the American people and why? Do you have any questions about any issues we as Ron Paul supporters can help clarify? Also, can I ask you, Don't you see the unfairness and bias in the media when it comes to Ron Paul? Don't you think opponents who are far less experienced, educated, and capable get more positive attention than Ron? What do you think we as supporters should do about this? Thank you for your time. I look forward to your response.
I do not believe that ad-hominem attacks are relegated to only the far left either. It is on both sides. I will say that my posting experience tells me that it is far more prevalent on the Far Left. As I always want them to lose the debate, I never call them on it. I do however get frustrate when those of us on the opposite side use these tactics and am not afraid to call a spade a spade on the issue. It hurts our cause when we get mean and nasty.
On flooding the polls. Actually the attacks were my main gripe not the flooding of the polls. However I will tell you why I believe flooding the polls actually does more damage than good. I would refer to the story of the tortoise and the hare. Lisa in one of these posts on this page made the statement that "sorry your guy isn’t winning the online polls." Does that mean she thinks Dr. Paul is? If she does then human nature makes us tend to do what the hare did. Sit down before the race is over. I would much rather "my guy" be behind until election day. How many of your not-so-active supporters see a poll, like the one at Fox last week, where Ron Paul sits at 47% and every one else sits below 20% and decides they do not need to donate any more. That the do not need to twitter any more. That he is so far ahead that there is no need to worry. They might not even be so pressed as to vote in the primary.
But I would also say that it is really dishonest. I do not believe that the ends justify the means. Ron Paul is known most for his integrity. Those polls that have been flooded, no matter how noble the reason, do not show what is truth. When I look at polls like the few I have seen that were flooded, it make me think that if those guys would spend that much time debating the issues, it would translate into real votes that would translate into real numbers in the scientific polls.
But to each his own on the flooding issue. I just believe that it also reflects poorly on the candidate the supporters are trying to support. I understand getting his name out there more than most. I have been actively involved in the GOP since I was too young to vote. How do I do that? I tell everyone far and wide how much I support my candidate and why. Much like I did for my congressional candidate Devin Nunez a year ago.
As to what issues I debate in? I debate that the Federal Government is ill equipped to micromanage local issues and does more damage than good in doing so. I debate that the more you encourage entitlements, the more you suppress those who otherwise might achieve greatness. I debate that if we took entitlements away from those who do not need it, the more we would have to give those that really do. I debate that our private education has exponentially better success at producing more college graduates than the Public on 1/3 the money. I debate that the Public education system wants to take God entirely out of the system then wonders why our students have character problems. I debate that the left always wants to compare the wealthy to the poor as opposed to the poor here with the poor in the rest of the world. Our poor here in America stand in the top 10% of the wealth of the world. The poorest of poor have a better standard of living here in this great country than in any other country, or in any other time in the history of the world. These are the things I debate.
I too agree that we have quite a few politicians that, on both sides, really could leave off the R or D. However I would sorely disagree that the issues are not left and right. There is a great divide between the Free Market and Government ran and the outcome. There is a great divide between big Federal Government and strength in the Local Government and the outcome of each. I would put the problem squarely on the voters however. We have become complacent and the far left never did. They have flooded the media and our schools and took over the Unions while we sat by. So thinking to win just an R we have settled for a compromise with the left when Reagan proved that through Great communication you can win over the American People to a conservative line of reasoning.
As for Ron Paul, I have followed closely his positions for three election cycles now. I will not debate my disagreements here in his living room. I do not think that appropriate. I will tell you, that with a few of the people we have running, I agree on most issues with a few of the candidates and Ron Paul is one of them. I will be happy however to debate the issues I disagree on and tell you why I support my candidate in email at sco ttie 1321 @ ya hoo (dot) communications. (Take that you email address stealing spaming bots) LOL
Thank you for the opportunity to do one of my favorite things. to discuss issues.
Like or Dislike: 1 1
Ron Paul is the only one with the guts to take on the federal reserve. He was also the only presidential candidate in '08 who warned us about the economic collapse and the bust in the housing market. Everyone laughed at him, and they have the nerve to doubt him now. I look at the current filed of gop candidates and am astounded by their lack of economic foresight.
Herman Cain, for example, said in 2008 that we were NOT on the brink of a recession: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6Pg3-9QWsU
Scott Osborn “Can you two please just agree to disagree and concentrate on something more positive”? Your response to my friendly request, “I would respectfully say to turn off your notifications or delete them.” But that was not good enough was it, you had to go on to tell me “Talk about not representing the foundational constitutional issue of free speech. That statement you made flies in the face of what we all believe and is exactly the Far Lefts position. I would respectfully encourage you to rethink it.” Mr. Osborn, you like to use the word Ad Hominem and I quote you “That is exactly the type of ad-hominem attacks I speak of. We are all on the same side.” Scott Osborn
June 4, 2011 at 3:05 pm and yet in almost every post of yours I have read you are confrontational and opinionated, let me remind you it was your original post that started this distraction from the real meaning of the original post and its message, "88% of the bank bailout money through the discount window went to foreign banks?” With that said I am finished here, you can pat yourself on the back, you won this argument. I have not been following this post to see one person try to dominate the discussion so I will not turn off my notifications, I will block all notifications from this site for the time being. I admit I had to look up the meaning of Ad Hominem, Regular Ad Hominem
1. A makes claim B;
2. there is something objectionable about A,
3. therefore claim B is false.
I now will exercise my first amendment right and call you a hypocrite because, and I again quote you "This is what free thinking is all about."
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All that cutting and pasting does not change the fact that in a discussion forum, you asked two people to stop discussing because you were inconvenienced by a notification email.
I never said anything to anyone about not being confrontational or opinionated.
To the contrary,
I encourage confrontation and strong opinion when discussing issues.What I argued for was civility in doing so. How that is hypocrisy is beyond me.
I started this thread with an open request to Dr. Paul and his supporters because the lack of civility hinders his message. Dr. Paul's message that 88% of those bailouts went to foreign entities gets lost when people are not able to discuss without civility.
I am sorry that a civil discussion about all Conservatives and Libertarians setting an example when we discuss the issues has you so upset but in closing I quote DR. Paul:
"Setting a good example is a far better way to spread ideals than through force of arms."
— Ron Paul
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An ad hominem (Latin: "to the man"), short for argumentum ad hominem, is an attempt to link the truth of a claim to a negative characteristic or belief of the person advocating it.
In other words, calling a person you do not know, a racist, stupid, or a hypocrite as a means to prove your point.
I repeat, it does not help the argument trying to be made and only reflects negatively on the person making the attack. Go to the HuffingtonPost or the Daily KOS to see many examples of this kind of discourse.
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Abusive ad hominem (also called personal abuse or personal attacks) usually involves insulting or belittling one's opponent in order to attack his claim or invalidate his argument
This tactic is logically fallacious because insults and negative facts about the opponent's personal character have nothing to do with the logical merits of the opponent's arguments or assertions.
Campaign's grassroots supporters are holding another Money Bomb this coming Sunday, June 5th. http://www.ronpaul2012.com/
Actually he quoted me and if you do not think this is free thinking. If you do not think this is a discussion worth having. Then I want to ask you, "are you from this planet." Talking about Ron Paul flooding is important. I say we need all the help we can get and he thinks its a little wrong and I admit it is a little wrong but he might admit we need it a bit of wrong to get people to notice lol. But if your going to say this I hope the free thinkers of the world dislike your comments. The Libertarian
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I was accused of cut and paste, guilty, I was accused of more than that and quite frankly I do not have the motivation to be specific but on most, if not all accounts Mr. Osborn uses his exceptional command of the English language to make his point and intimidate this simpleton or, as I would prefer to describe myself, simple with no reference to anyone but myself. I do not want to be a hypocrite and fear I may be in some people’s opinion by responding to any post here now and or what I have previously stated. I have already conceded so I am not sure what more he would want from me but I have a feeling he will make that clear soon. I am not and never would claim to be totally right about anything and he has put me in a position that I stand corrected but only because I followed my emotions rather than my intellect when I called him a hypocrite. The man is completely correct about we need not be name calling if we are on the same side nor ever but it is tempting at times. He has a way with words that he belittles others without the use of expletives so he can maintain the high ground and does so quite well. I am tired of this; I am looking forward to the money bomb event starting tonight. I am going to donate one hundred dollars and as cool, neat, special or what other word or words I use that may be dated, it would be grand if I could get my donation in first but I would bet tenfold I can not. For the record, I am fifty three years old and not in the category of younger people (because of my age) who believe in change and support Congressman Ron Paul M.D. and it gives me hope to see the young responding positively to Ron Paul in a way that makes me proud. Let it be said the young know, for the future will be inherited by the younger than I. Now I will leave this post and prepare to soon witness what I hope is a historical event, http://www.ronpaul2012.com/ please donate.
I in now way intended to belittle or intimidate you. If I made you feel that way, I sincerely apologize. I did take seriously your asking for a discussion in a discussion forum to cease because it was creating notifications in your inbox. There are those in this country who would like to silence all of those who do not stand in lockstep with their own beliefs.
You state, "I am not sure what more he would want from me."
Just stay the high ground my friend, just stay the high ground. You will bring your opponent to his knees as he spends his time name calling if you will just stay the high ground. That is the basic foundational principle of Christianity.
You also stated, "He has a way with words that he belittles others without the use of expletives so he can maintain the high ground and does so quite well."
I by no means belittled anyone. I would argue, as I have in these posts, that the one using ad-hominem attacks while the other stands the high ground belittles themselves. I debate the Far Left daily, driving them crazy as I stay as kind and civil to them as I can while they call me every name in the book. I do not stay the high ground to make them crazy, I stay the high ground because that is my Christian standard. But even The Apostle Paul said in Romans that if you will stay kind to those who persecute you, it is like heaping burning coals on your head.
I reach out my hand to you Michael in friendship. We most likely agree on most things. I am now going to go to http://www.ronpaul2012.com/ and give him $100. Although Ron Paul is not my first choice, he does embody the basic standards I am espousing in these posts.
Well sir, now you make me smile because, for no other reason just because. Now, for me, back to the money bomb which I so ignorantly did not verify time zone… and for the sake of debate and I do not want any more tonight, whether Ron Paul can win the GOP or not it is my belief that what he stands for is available to the public. I have been apathetic concerning politics most of my life and Ron Paul cured me of that.
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Thank you for another absolutely real and inspiring speech Dr. Paul.
Only together can Americans stop the New World Order and do the right thing, which is crash the Federal Reserve.
Crash the Federal Reserve, stop the illegal New World Order in its tracks.
We will need every AWAKE American and volunteer to join this battlefield as that is what it will take to bring down these political hacks, the Dr. Jeykylls who have been stealing from us for years right underneath our nose as the Tea Party now even proved. The politicians on both sides are involved in a quid-quo pro, an illegal New World Order agenda paid for by the Federal Reserve which is financing the utter destruction of America!
Stop the Illegal scam, ARREST THEM and most importantly.....Crash the Federal Reserve!!!
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Attention Scott and Ben, this all started about flooding, well guess what gentlemen; you two are flooding my email with your bickering. Do I have to turn off my notifications? Can you two please just agree to disagree and concentrate on something more positive?
Campaign's grassroots supporters are holding another Money Bomb this coming Sunday, June 5th. Search Ron Paul 2012
I would respectfully say to turn off your notifications or delete them. Where Ben and I may disagree on this, we most likely agree on a majority of things. One of those things is free speech and the unwillingness to let someone silence. Especially over something as trivial as your email notifications.
This, my friend, is a discussion forum. That is what it is for and this is a valid discussion. As Ben said in an earlier post:
"This is what free thinking is all about."
You have not right to ask people to stop discussing in a discussion forum just because you get an email.
Talk about not representing the foundational constitutional issue of free speech. That statement you made flies in the face of what we all believe and is exactly the Far Lefts position. I would respectfully encourage you to rethink it.
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I hope that you will be our next president. I agree with mostly everything you say. I like the fact that you are honest and always say the same things. People know what you are thinking. With other candidates one can never tell what they really think or how they feel about any given subject. Sometimes I wonder if they even know what they are talking about but rather trying to manipulate us by saying things that no one can really disagree with and therefore they think that they will get more votes. This tactic is so common in politics and it is wrong. Thank you for speaking your mind and letting us know how you really feel. I stand for freedom. I stand with you.
Like I said before the revolution was won with guns in hand. Our guns are picket signs and rallies. The media barely covered the Madison Wisconsin Rallies. There were over 100,000 people there...Turn off the TV..... If you are going to say that we can't use peaceful means to gain attention. You have already given up. because the grassroots of America is waking up and wants real change. You are already asking me to give up on liberty to go to a rally event and to say what I want to say. It was Ron Paul members who took those seats. Others could have taken those seat before the Ron Paul Supporters. We have the passion, the power and the drive to bring this nation a true future. Not more of the same. Some of the most important people in our history went to bars and got people all wild (James madison and Mr. Adams). How dare you ask me to give up my freedom to take a bus to a rally and support my Icon, my hero, and my role model. The Libertarian
" The cost of freedom is always high, but Americans have always paid it. And one path we shall never choose, and that is the path of surrender, or submission." John Fitzgerald Kennedy
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Where in any of my posts did I say that we can’t use peaceful means to gain attention. Au contrair, I am arguing for peaceful means and agianst incivilty in our discourse.
You said, "you are already asking me to give up on liberty to go to a rally event and to say what I want to say." Where in my posts did I say that? It is not what we say, but how we say it.
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That is what you are implying when you say Ron Paul supporters should stay home and not go to the polls (which is what ur argument is) because you said u think flooding it wrong. And in Return I said it is outrageous to tell people to not go by bus or plane or what ever means necessary to support their candidate. Do you read Ron Paul's stuff.... Its our money we can spend it how we see fit. And it we see fit to give our time, energy and money to him then I can not take your comments lightly in brink of Revolution. The Libertarian.
AY YI YI,
Online polls, on websites, you know where you guys all get together and pass around the latest poll and send all your friends to that website to make Ron Paul look like he has 50% support when he doesn't.
Do you really think I was talking about voting in elections? I am sorry if I did not make that clear.
That tactic is dishonest. Is a poll that makes Ron Paul look like he has 45-50% support when he doesn't truthful? Is it honest? Does it reflect reality?
Like or Dislike: 0 7
I can only speak for myself and I have been reminded of that a few times so speaking for myself I have a thought about Congressman Paul’s supporters flooding the polls, I neither agree nor disagree BUT if that is true I would suspect there is a good reason for doing so. What say you, maybe Ron Paul supporters are aware that is the best way to get recognition. I personally find polls, blogs and such by searching the mans name i.e. Ron Paul and when I find something new either positive or negative I investigate but I do not attempt to flood anything and often find myself trying to defend the positions of Doctor Paul because those that do not support him always ping on the non issues as in ‘Paul supports heroin use’ or ‘Paul is against the elimination of Bin Laden’ which I will not bother to defend those out of context statements other than saying exactly that, they are words pressured journalists say and miss informed people watching the bias Fox News or any main stream media for that matter concentrate on instead of what is important.
I agree with Ben “He is getting more media looks but not near what anyone else is". With that said I will put my keyboard to rest with a reminder, Campaign's grassroots supporters are holding another Money Bomb this coming Sunday, June 5th. http://www.ronpaul2012.com/
Thank you for being a third party opinion in our debate. This is what free thinking is all about. The Libertarian
Our founders stood up with guns in arms. We are doing civil disobedience and are not hurting anyone. How can you sit here and say that we can't use any means necessary to get our message out. Fox News is a 24 hour ad for the Corrupt.
"Live a Libertarian, Die a Libertarian. When your last breaths come to be: You will be Assured, Promised, Guaranteed. That your final breaths were for Liberty. "
"One man with courage is a majority" Thomas Jefferson
MANY MEN WITH COURAGE IS A REVOLUTION. SIT DOWN.
Because there is a difference between civil disobedience and uncivil disobedience. There is a difference between civil means and uncivil means. One represents the character of Dr. Paul. One represents the character of the far left.
Like or Dislike: 0 4
Flooding the polls doesn't even come close to leveling the playing field when it comes to Ron Paul on main stream media. He is getting more media looks but not near what anyone else is. This is a grass roots movement and the people will find their own ways to be heard. Step off from your perch Scott.
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Why did not you just say, "The ends justify the means"? Again, that is far from the character of the man you wholeheartedly support.
They aren't flooding the polls! Did it ever occur to you that Ron has gained tens of thousands of new supporters since the last election? That and the fact there are numerous Ron Paul fan sites so when someone sees a poll they alert the others and everyone goes to vote.
Like or Dislike: 5 1
When an online poll shows 45% for Dr. Paul and everyone else is at 20% or below, it has been flooded. Many do. I wish he did.
sorry your guy isn't winning the online polls. Would you like a box of tissues?
This is not about my guy or your guy, who btw isn't winning either. This is about civil discourse.
Like or Dislike: 0 1
I feel as if my country has been degraded to a civilization of ignorance and corruption. There is no greater hope for restoring a free and open society then you President Paul. Countless unjust wars and money laundering to dictators, devaluing my hard earned dollar through quantitative easing, what happened to America? Anyone these days is graced to have a decent job, even working part time or if they only make minimum wage. I'm tired of paying the government to do things I don't know about and sure as hell don't approve of. I'm tired of all the death and occupation overseas while the American public stands beside it blindly. I'm tired of spending my whole life in school so I can have a glimmer of hope of becoming prosperous, and working soley to pay this off. The point is I'm tired of the path the American people have not necessarily chosen, but that they let others choose for them. We need a true and honest leader in these grave times Mr. Paul or I fear this will all end badly for everyone in this world very soon. I have a feeling about this year, Ron, I feel like 2011 is going to be the start of some very rough times. We don't have time to wait until 2012 for real change but electing you as president is our only hope to change to a just and prosperous country again. We will be the jealousy of the world rather than the hated. All of us are counting on you whether people know it or not.
Like or Dislike: 7 1
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