428 responses to “Ron Paul’s Bold Plan to Restore America, Save $1 Trillion & Balance the Budget”

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  10. John123

    Anyone else notice how the last graphs figure were wrong???

    It was, when first released, e.g ‘250,000 billion dollars’ (250trillion)

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    I think I’m the only person in the world to notice this!!

    Did anyone download it when it was first released??

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  11. w1945

    I am glad you are supporting Ron Paul but you say in your comment that you will participate in the OccupyMovement. Some one sent me a photo of a young man with his paints down and he was taking a crap on the American flag while children and women were watching. And this young man was with the OccupyMovement. Are you sure you want to associate your self with such scum? If I had been there I would have caved his freaking head in, make no mistake about it. That is disgusting. Ron Paul would never stand for this kind of behavior.

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    1. ChokitPi

      @w1945 Police should have done something in this case about indecent exposure.. The act would be protected under free speech, although I don’t approve I must say this gives you no right to cause physical harm you fascist scumbag.

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  12. johnnyrivera710

    I have awoken. Ron Paul 2012! It is because of dedicated supporters like ALL of you that I have registered as a (Blue) Republican to vote for the only Doctor/Veteran/Hero that can truly save our country. He may have to make tough choices, but at least I know he makes decisions on principles and he is consistent. Please please PLEASE continue to spread Ron Paul’s message because if it were not for all of you I would not know the truth.

    I have lost faith in our current system and as much as I support some of Obama’s views (50/50), I can say I support ALL of Ron Paul’s views (100%!). Obama did a few good things for this country, but after researching facts I can see that he did more harm than good. I wish Obama all the best, but we need a real President. It’s time for Ron Paul!!! Even though I don’t have as much faith in the system and I will participate in the #OccupyMovement, I am still going to vote and voice my opinion. I also urge Ron Paul supporters not to dismiss OWS as some sort of “Left-wing hippy movement”. Don’t listen to the media, they are trying to separate us!! OWS and Ron Paul supporters should be working together. The main stream media FEAR a united movement! As much as I would like to tax the rich, I now understand that it is like putting a band-aide on a gun shot wound. We need a real Doctor in our White House!! Please join OWS in peaceful protest or at least LISTEN to them as you would like others to LISTEN to you and our hero Ron Paul. If you would like to discuss ideas with me, you can find me on Google+ http://gplus.to/johnnyrivera

    Ron Paul 2012

    Johnny

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    1. w1945

      When I see a young man take a crap on the American Flag that is enough for me. Yes he was one of your OWS boys. He needs his ass whipped and I would be the one to give it to him. Tell that sucker to come south and try that and see what he gets. @johnnyrivera710

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      1. johnnyrivera710

        @w1945 W1945,

        Happy Thanksgiving. I couldn’t agree more with you. Anyone from any party or any movement who disgraces the American flag should be sent to another country. While I do agree with you, I have to give you a brief answer because I can not monitor the actions of thousands of OWS or Ron Paul supporters. In the words of Ron Paul, “For me to address that would give it too much credibility and I think bringing it up gives it way much more credibility than it deserves is rather silly. How can this be a significant issue in a presidential race?” and..”Insignificant silly things we don’t waste a whole lot of time on things like that.”

        Source: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p8bPfzIF8Qg

        Lastly, I do NOT support ALL of the #OccupyMovement’s actions; however, if you watch the following video you would understand why I support most actions in the movement. In fact, it is partly because of OWS that I am volunteering as a student to support Ron Paul in Iowa in early January. Here’s the video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQNBZjFy0_A

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        1. w1945

          I have no problem with the OWS protest, I could even tolerate a few broken windows even though that would certainly do harm to their cause. But being a Vietnam Vet I draw the line with the flag no matter what the protest is. I do not mind any one becoming rich if they are willing to work hard and they obtain their wealth legally. Sadly a lot of people become wealthy through our government with that governments help, that I am against. I attended the first Tea Party in DC. We had hundred of thousands of people there. I did not see one act of violence and when we left that place it looked just like it did when we arrived, there was not one piece of paper left on the ground. We picked up ever piece of trash and placed it in trash containers. I just wish OWS would try that because they would get a lot more support. Good luck and take care. @johnnyrivera710

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        2. johnnyrivera710

          @w1945 I’m not a vet myself, but I can understand where you’re coming from, and agree there needs to be respect for the flag, an organized message, and strong discipline with OWS protests. I also don’t mind people becoming wealthy from their ideas and hard work. I am studying business and investment operations myself. I think most people are misinformed, and believe the government needs to intervene in everything; however, people are waking up and hearing Dr. Paul’s message and ideas. I admire your Tea Party protests for being so organized, and I do hope OWS is able to establish itself as a credible, organized movement. Thanks for your great advice, and please feel free to keep me updated on Tea Party protests, and any way we can help here in New York. I’m currently speaking to other hispanics/blacks in my community, helping them understand Ron Paul’s message and getting them to register as Republicans for 2012. Let’s keep each other informed, and keep the revolution strong. Thanks again.

          »crosslinked«

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        3. w1945

          Jonny

          I think you are a very nice person and I am glad you are studying business and investment operations. Just throw in a lot of economics. smile. I was born very poor in north GA. We were lower than share croppers. But I do not resent that because it taught me how to survive and to make wise decision. My day did not have much but he was a wise man. He taught me to always tell the truth and to keep my word no matter what. He also told me that it took a life time to make a friend and ten seconds to lose that friend. I hope you the best in life and I know your heart is in the right place. Just invest all you can in silver because it will make you rich one day. smile

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    2. MattPapke

      @johnnyrivera710 Out Standing Johnny, While OWS and some Paul Supporters have clear differences in some ways in the end they are all looking for America to be a better place. Lets focus on our common ground rather than the cracks that would divide us.

      Ron Paul Supporters are by nature critical thinkers and have a keen way of building an online precsence. OWS is even more so technologically savvy. I’d be happy to discuss with you in more detail what opportunities exist that we can work together.

      W1945 does of course have so valid points. I am a veteran I a worked to protect that mans right to crap in the flag. I’d do it again if need be. However; associated that type of behavior with Dr. Paul’s campaign will not get us very far and will likely serve to eliminate or at the very least weaken some of hte most conservative support we have built.

      But welcome brother, lets find the common ground and build a mountain to upend the arrogant statists that currently rule our land.

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    3. MattPapke

      @johnnyrivera710

      Out Standing Johnny, While OWS and some Paul Supporters have clear differences in some ways; in the end they are all looking for America to be a better place. Lets focus on our common ground rather than the cracks that would divide us.

      Ron Paul Supporters are by nature critical thinkers and have a keen way of building an online presence. OWS is even more so technologically savvy. I’d be happy to discuss with you in more detail what opportunities exist that we can work together.

      W1945 does of course have some valid points. I am a veteran, I worked to protect that mans right to crap on the flag. I’d do it again if need be. However; associating that type of behavior with Dr. Paul’s campaign will not get us very far and will likely serve to eliminate or at the very least weaken some of the most conservative support we have built.

      But welcome brother, lets find the common ground and build a mountain to upend the arrogant statists that currently rule our land.

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      1. johnnyrivera710

        @MattPapke Matt,

        First, let me say Happy Thanksgiving! I thank you for all that you have done for our country as a soldier and as a veteran. I believe educating ourselves is a revolutionary act itself. I agree with you Matt, we must set aside our differences and learn from each other.

        It would be great to discuss more in detail about bringing critical thinkers and technologically savvy professionals together for open discussions/debates.

        Like I said to W1945, I agree we can not associate that behavior (crapping on a flag) to Ron Paul’s campaign; however, OWS and Tea Party can engage in discussion and debate without uniting/protesting together. Let me also mention RP has recently stated that he has been working all these years against the 1% and stands with the 99%.

        Thank you for your warm welcome Matt, and thank you W1945 for informing me on this disgusting act by one OWS, who does not represent the entire movement. I will bring up any internal OWS issues at future General Assemblies that I attend. Sorry for the very long post, and I look forward to future discussions. The revolution is now: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQNBZjFy0_A

        Today, let us be grateful to our veterans, doctors, and heroes like Ron Paul, who stand up for our liberty. Happy Thanksgiving

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        1. w1945

          Jonny

          If every one could relate to each other like you, Matt and I do then this world would be a better place to live in. I see people all over the internet who do not agree with some ones point of view and right up front they start to call them names and insult them. I truly believe that the only way we will ever fix this country is talk to each other in a sane manner. I think we all have something in common and all we have to do it find that and talk about that. If we do that we can work out all of the rest. smile@johnnyrivera710 @MattPapke

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      2. johnnyrivera710

        @MattPapke@w1945 Also, one last note. Let me ask this question: Why is it that main stream media ignores both Ron Paul and Occupy Wall Street UNTIL they are forced to discuss these movements? They are scared Matt. They are afraid because they know that “an idea whose time has come can not be stopped by any army or any government”. We can let silly things separate us, or we can unite to save our country. Please learn more here everyone, this is what the real revolution is about:

        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ka1ym7S3F3w

        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRtc-k6dhgs

        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQNBZjFy0_A

        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2-T6ox_tgM

        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wK1MOMKZ8BI

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      3. w1945

        Matt

        I in no way want to offend you. I too will protect anyone’s right to free speech. But as I said I draw the line on the American flag. I saw to many of my friends blown to bits and they were fighting for that flag or at least they thought they were. I had six uncles who fought in the WWII, my brother and I both served in Vietnam at the same time and I had one cousin who served. We buried my cousin two weeks after my brother and I returned home. A lot of blood has been paid for our flag and to see some one do that to it just rubs me the wrong way. If that young man had been with me in Vietnam and saw those boys with their guts hanging out and crying for their mothers he would not treat our flag in such manner. Sorry but I really get bent out of shape when some on does that. Take care.

        @johnnyrivera710

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        1. MattPapke

          @w1945@johnnyrivera710 No Offense taken brother. We are all in this together! Thank you for your service!

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  13. pl21224

    So this is the Ron Paul ‘fan site’? With fans like many here, who needs enemies? While I don’t see eye to eye with Ron Paul on every single issue, I do on the most important issues, and I’ve not found another candidate who comes close to matching Ron Paul on the most important issues, which are reducing the size and cost of government, returning some degree of certainty to the job creators so that jobs will be created, strengthening our currency, bringing some transparency to government, and returning to the Constitution as the basis of government.

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    1. Jean-FrancoisBeaulieu

      @pl21224 Everybody is freee to post and that’s great. At least I haven’t seen a troll for a long time.

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      1. pl21224

        @Jean-FrancoisBeaulieu While I agree on being free to post, living abroad I was expecting to see a much more supportive group extolling facts about Ron Paul in an attempt to promote him over the other candidates running in the primaries.

        Having joined and left a number of TEA party sites, I found that they appear content to just replace Obama with any candidate, and surprisingly I’ve found more positive support for Ron Paul on the most Left wing site where I occasionally post.

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        1. MattPapke

          @pl21224@Jean-FrancoisBeaulieu Dr Paul does not need a party he a good man and I vote for good men. However many Americans still need a Party to align them selves to. His support transcends party lines and rightfully so!

          Unfortunately if you rely on MSM for your news he’s lambasted regularly and will not get the support of those who rely on newscasters to make their decisions for them. The tide is turning however. Please help us take America back.

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        2. pl21224

          @MattPapke@pl21224@Jean-FrancoisBeaulieu While I don’t think we need a third party, we really do need a second party, and it’s going to take some effort on the part of the voters to retake the Republican party, and Ron Paul represents what the Republican party should be. We have allowed the MSM media and various organized groups to constantly divide us as a people, and what we really need in a leader is someone who can unite us as a people. While I may have some differences of opinion with Ron Paul, I do feel he stands uncompromisingly on his principles, and honesty above all the other candidates.

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  14. JasonCaryl

    I have been following Dr Ron Paul since 2006 and was very active in his 2008 campaign. I have been an outspoken proponent of Dr. Paul’s message to this day. That being said, I am troubled by what I see in Dr. Paul’s “restore america” plan. 1st, Dr Paul’s message has always been END THE FED and RESTORE THE POWER OF PRINTING MONEY TO THE DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY – As is called for in the Constitution. Now I am hearing from several sources that Dr Paul would not actually “END” the fed, but rather open it up to competition. Can someone explain this change in his agenda and how that is constitutional when the constitution calls for the Dept of the Treasury to be responsible for printing money? The 2nd item which concerns me is the line item in his plan which calls for the “Ban on Union projects”…. I have been a union worker and a non-union worker. I believe in a persons right to organize if they so desire. Does Dr Paul not believe in this country anymore? Has he lost his love of the Constitution? This country is a union of 50 states. People fought for this union and died for this union. When he destroys private unions will he also destroy the Union of 50 states? This is not a joke, I am seriously questioning my ability to stand behind him.Is there someone who can explain these two points to me? Thank you.-Wobbling Long Time Ron Paul Supporter

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    1. pl21224

      @JasonCaryl If I heard him correctly, he has not backed off of ending the Fed, but only stated that it could not be accomplished instantly, and in fact I think we would be better served to eliminate, or greatly reduce the National debt before any attempt is made to strengthen the dollar. I’ve been unable to locate where in his plan he calls for a ‘Ban on union projects’, but I do feel the taxpayers are not served by unionization of Public sector workers, who most often are better paid and receive better working and pension benefits than private sector workers who pay their wages and benefits, nor do I support government elimination of non-union contractors from being allowed to bid on or receive government contracts.

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    2. MattPapke

      @JasonCaryl Hi Jason, Dr. Paul has been a staunch opponent of the FED as long as I can recall. However he has never advocated for the immediate dissolving of it. First the Audit, then the Allowing of competing currencies. As is there is not any true competition. Allowing the competition would allow the markets to operate and choose the currency they see most viable. Ideally the reliance upon the FED would wane and make the dissolving of it more organic than forced. RE the labor question I do not know how to answer your question.

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      1. w1945

        You are absolutely right on Paul and his stance on the Fed. @MattPapke @JasonCaryl

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    3. Jean-FrancoisBeaulieu

      @JasonCaryl

      1) Ban on Union projects: In the budget plan ( page 3) it is supposed to represent an economy of 2 $billion per year. He doesn’t claim that union will be banned, that’s against his philosophy of freedom, but it seems to refer to some pork barrel union projects like the Train to Nowhere (Victorville, Calif.) and infrastructure spendings where federal funds are used on useless projects where the democratic party buys the loyalty of unions in order to finance Obama’s campaign later.

      2) Federal Reserve: In the section “issues”, “sound money”, he was already describing several months ago his approach regarding the Fed: A war by attrition e.g. allowing people to use silver or gold in their transactions. Presently the government is doing the opposite with sales taxes on gold and silver and the fact that you must declare your profits if you resell gold, obviously the US government wouldn’t like to see people dumping the dollar. Now, why would a president have the autority to prevent a group of bankers from printing notes? He cannot end the Fed with an executive order, that’s not his style. Anyway that would lead to a total chaos and the collapse of the economy if it’s done in one day. Someone has to manage the transition, but there is no reason to allow the federal reserve to print “this note is legal tender”, as a customer or as a merchant, you should be free to refuse their notes when your purchase/buy something. So not only the chairman of the federal reserve is replaced, not only do you have a complete audit every year, but if there are suspicions that the Fed overprint notes the people will dump the dollars and use silver. The Federal Resreve has the choice between comitting a quick suicide ( if most people reject the USD) or becoming useless, e.g. standing iddle. Gradually the real price of gold and silver will be determined by the market and the interest rates will be created by the market (local bankers) rather than a central authority.

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    4. w1945

      Just put him into office and see what he does to the Fed. This man can not stand the Fed. He will be their worst Nightmare. @JasonCaryl

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  15. SteveMa

    As I said before I have been following Ron Paul for over 20 years. There are only about 5 people in my life time that would even be worth voting for, so don’t get the idea I am discouraging anyone from voting. They are interviewing him even on Sunday shows now, he not only can win, it looks very good.

    If he just stops the wars, stops the feds from abusing civil liberties, and pardons all non-violent prisoners, that will be better than any other president ever and that is totally within his power without anyone else.

    My fear is that he will get elected and put those things on the back burner or since he is such a nice guy he will get there and not have the forcefullness to just do that, especially after he gets a visit from the CIA and they tell him his life depends on not doing any of that.

    OR maybe they already visited him and that is why his budget only helps the rich and he is getting on all those shows, maybe he is already not bought but under duress.

    The bottom line for me is that even thogh the right courageous person as president CAN make positive changes, WE CAN NO LONGER HOPE FOR THAT. The system is totally corrupt and MUST BE REPLACED, not just the political system the whole money/market system must be transcended.

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    1. Jean-FrancoisBeaulieu

      @SteveMa At least you didn’t say that his budget hits the poor. Because how could you give a tax break to someone who doesn’t pay any tax anyway? Killing inflation ( with a balanced budget) is like removing the last tax that the poor are still paying. For job creations… well, since you don’t seem to believe in the market, so it be.

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    2. w1945

      My fear is that he will get elected and put those things on the back burner or since he is such a nice guy he will get there and not have the forcefullness to just do that, especially after he gets a visit from the CIA and they tell him his life depends on not doing any of that.

      Now do you really believe that knowing Ron Paul? If you have that fear then you truly do not know the man. But I still hope you vote for him. Don’t worry the TX fire ant will get the job done. Would you not like to see all of them up there go Bat Spat?

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  16. DebbieWringles

    Lets summarize where we are with this interesting discussion about RPs budget.

    I have pointed out that a key number is the 3069 base line number for the revenue in 2013. This is a number provided by the CBO under the assumption that the Bush tax cuts expire.

    The projected increase of revenue in RPs plan is therefore (3069-2302) / 2302 = 0.33.

    So RP and CBO predicts that the revenue will increase with a whopping 33% between now and 2013. This has never happened in modern times.

    Jean-Francois has pointed out that RP takes into account the Bush taxcuts because he subtract 238 billions from 3069. The projected increase of revenue in RPs plan is therefore without this taxcut (3069-2302-238) / 2302 = 0.22

    If one goes back and looks at revenue increases since WW2 one can see that the revenue has never increased by 33% in a two year period and only once in the early fifties by as much as 22%.

    Conclusion:

    Ron Paul is using numbers that predicts that the Obama administration will pull off one of the most fantastic economic recoveries in modern times.

    However, Ron Paul does not believe that Obama will increase revenue with 22% in the coming two years by improving the economy. You do not believe it. And I do not believe it. If we did, we should all (including RP) vote for Obama.

    So Ron Pauls plan is dishonest. The only defense that RP supporters have against this observation is that his predictions comes from the CBO so they have to be correct. Yeah, right. Are you guys interested in buying a bridge also ?

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    1. pl21224

      @DebbieWringles I don’t think anyone here is interested in buying a bridge, especially since they’re all known to be near collapse. But, given the choices we have in the upcoming elections, including your own admission that ‘none’ of the candidates have produced a better, or more honest plan which would produce a balanced budget, I think the fact remains that most of us here, with the exception of you and SteveMa, would agree that Ron Paul is the only one who we could entrust to put forth the effort needed to reduce the massively wasteful spending and debt accumulation of our government.

      What you refer to as an interesting discussion appears to have become no more than a relentless rant with the sole purpose of reducing support for Ron Paul. Perhaps you would feel more at home on an “Obama in 2012″ site?

      Even if the figures from the CBO are wrong, which they most often are, I think the spending could easily be reduced and the budget balanced in a single term with the right politicians being elected. We need someone in the Executive office that would support the needed actions, but we also need both houses of Congress to have members intent on accomplishing the same goals, which presently we do not have.

      Look at the bigger picture, and a start in accomplishing anything at all requires placing the right people in positions that allow the needed changes to be implemented.

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    2. Jean-FrancoisBeaulieu

      @DebbieWringles You are wrong again when you say:”Ron Paul is using numbers that predicts that the Obama administration will pull off one of the most fantastic economic recoveries in modern times.”

      He has to use the official figures regarding the expected revenues, and although these figures are probably too optimistic the CBO doesn’t paint a rosy picture of the economy for the next 2 years… From the Congressional Budget Office document:

      begin quote:

      “CBO expects that the recovery will continue but that real (inflation-adjusted) GDP will stay well below the economy’s potential—a level that corresponds to a high rate of use of labor and capital—for several years. [...]CBO projects that real GDP will increase by 2.3 percent this year and by 2.7 percent next year. [...]The unemployment rate is projected to fall from 9.1 percent in the second quarter of 2011 to 8.9 percent in the fourth quarter of the year and to 8.5 percent in the fourth quarter of 2012

      On page 2 of the same document provide many reasons behind the expected revenues, the Bush tax cuts but also several other issues. So nowhere does the CBO claims that you will have a fantastic recovery under Obama.

      begin quote:

      “Certain provisions of the 2010 tax act, including extensions of lower rates and expanded credits and deductions originally enacted in the Economic Growth and Tax Relief Reconciliation Act of 2001, the Jobs and Growth Tax Relief Reconciliation Act of 2003, and the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act (ARRA), expire at the end of 2012; The two-year extension of provisions designed to limit the reach of the alternative minimum tax, extensions of emergency unemployment compensation, and the one-year reduction in the payroll tax all expire at the end of 2011;

      “Read the page 2, it’s not just about the Bush tax cuts

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    3. Jean-FrancoisBeaulieu

      @DebbieWringles By the way it’s hard to predict exactly the real GDP growth and the unemployment rate, there are so many external factors, those guys are often wrong, but nowhere do they paint a rosy picture of the next 2 years.

      However IF the gdp growth is known, it’s easy for them to predict the surge in revenues because unlike you, they know in details how many taxation acts will expire in the coming two years and they can even use a mathematical model to know how much extra revenues are generated for a specific GDP growth rate since they can use historical data for a similar growth rate.

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    4. w1945

      Who give a flying crap? What is with all the numbers. The economy is in a freaking mess.

      Can Obama fix it? Can Romney, Cain, Perry or Newt fix it? No way in hell can they fix it. Ron may get into office and everything still may go to you know where, but he is the best one for the job period. So stop with all the numbers. Use common sense. I trust my gut and my gut tells me to go with Ron Pual.

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  17. pl21224

    What makes Ron Paul stand out from all the other candidates is that he clearly states the problems and doesn’t try to pose solutions based on what each audience would like to hear, or present them so vaguely that each listener can hear what he/she would like to hear. Cut spending and balance the budget, and I don’t think Ron Paul would try and work around the Congress and the people by implementing changes through Executive orders autocratically.

    Except for a couple of the other Republican primary candidates, I think some of them should be running in a Democrat primary against Obama.

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    1. DebbieWringles

      @pl21224 “he clearly states the problems and doesn’t try to pose solutions based on what each audience would like to hear, or present them so vaguely that each listener can hear what he/she would like to hear.”

      Are you joking ?

      This is exactly what he does with his economic plan.

      He tells his follower that if he cuts the budget he cannot not only balance the budget but save enough to pay for new huge tax cuts. Exactly what you in the supporter club what do hear. This is impossible and very, very dishonest

      What he does not tell you is that his plan only works if the Bush tax cuts expires so that he has a big tax increase in addition. With other words ….his plan is so vague that nobody of you RP supporters are able to see the slight of hands.

      If he was an honest guy he would say that in order to get a balanced budget he would have to.

      1. implement his budget cuts.

      2. let the Bush tax cuts expire

      3. wait with his own tax cuts until the economy picks up

      But that is not what you in the RP supporter club wants to hear so he gives you a BS economic plan that you all think is wonderful but that has holes that you can drive a truck through.

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      1. pl21224

        @DebbieWringles The plan he has presented is based on the CBO projections, which are based on the information they have been given, and even if wrong which most often it is, is what he should be using. His plan can be adjusted around new figures, once they have been provided, and considering the excessive amounts Obama has increased the Federal budget to cover redistribution programs, I think $1 trillion is a trivial amount but at least a start in the right direction.

        Reducing the size of the Federal government, waste and duplicity, and allowing States to continue or eliminate implementation of programs at the State level, funded by the States would further cut the Federal budget.

        The Federal government doesn’t PAY for tax cuts, it only requires making offsetting spending cuts.

        Personally, I would like to see the people given the opportunity to repeal the 16th and 17th amendments, and eliminate the Federal governments ability to tax income directly. Returning to the States the power to tax, and returning to Congress the voices of both the people (House) and the States (Senate), would reduce greatly the ability of the Federal government to perpetually grow the National debt with deficit spending. The States would likely continue to make use of a progressive tax system, but the people of each State and the State itself would have a much stronger voice in what spending and programs could be initiated by the Federal government, requiring consent of the people who would be less susceptible, and accessible to the efforts of lobbyists than are the concentration of Representatives, ALL elected by the people and none by the States today.

        By the way, do you prefer a Republican candidate who would maintain the status quo, or are you an Obama supporter?

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        1. DebbieWringles

          @pl21224@DebbieWringles “The plan he has presented is based on the CBO projections, which are based on the information they have been given, and even if wrong which most often it is, is what he should be using.”

          The plan he is using is based on the assumption that the Bush yax cuts will be revoked and we will have a huge tax hike. Sorry, but that is dishonest.

          What he should have done is assumed no increase in revenue from now to 2013 since the Bush tax cuts should not be revoked and with Obama’s disastrous economic policy the GDP growth will be feeble at best.

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        2. pl21224

          @DebbieWringles I would prefer he stick with the assumptions provided him by the CBO, rather than make his own assumptions which could be just as inaccurate, and more of a problem if they were to be worse than those provided by the CBO. It angers me when politicians use figures that have no source that I can confirm, right or wrong. At least when they use figures I too can obtain from the same source, I can then put them on a spread sheet and not have to play with multiple what-ifs.

          If you so adamantly oppose, and distrust Ron Paul claiming him to be dishonest and lie, why not make us aware of who among the possible candidates would be a more honest and trustful candidate that we should be focusing on and directing our support. Essentially you appear to be continually vociferously espousing “Anyone but Ron Paul”. It would appear that you must feel he may take votes from the candidate of your choice in the primary. If or until some other candidate can demonstrate having principles equal to or greater than Ron Paul, he is the only candidate I could caste my vote for, and lacking his name on the General election ballot, I would feel given as my only choice the opportunity to caste a vote against Obama.

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        3. DebbieWringles

          “I would prefer he stick with the assumptions provided him by the CBO, rather than make his own assumptions which could be just as inaccurate, and more of a problem if they were to be worse than those provided by the CBO.”

          But he does not have to do any crazy assumptions. Just apply his spending cuts and tax cuts on the 2011 budget. Then you see that it cannot work.

          I have never said that RPs plan is worse than any other politicians plan. They are all dishonest. And none of them would give a balanced budget. NOT A SINGLE ONE !

          Americans generally do not understand what a terrible mess the federal budget is in and no politician (including RP) has the honesty to tell them. Grow up an realize that there are no easy solutions.

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        4. pl21224

          @DebbieWringles But there is an easy solution, and that would be to spend no more than the revenue collected. Cut salaries and pensions of Federal employees to something that the taxpayers can afford. The longer we allow the Federal government to avoid making the necessary spending cuts the more difficult it will become and Greece will look like a cakewalk compared to the the U.S. and the debts both recognized and the unfunded future liabilities that are going to create a continuing crisis in the near future.

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        5. Jean-FrancoisBeaulieu

          @DebbieWringles@pl21224 Wrong, the plan is based on the assumption that the Bush tax cuts WILL NOT BE REVOKED!. The 3069 $billion figure for 2013 takes in account more revenues when the Bush tax cuts expire, but RP substract the tax cuts after on page 4.

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      2. w1945

        Well hell go vote for the one who you think has all the answers. Better yet why don’t you run. I am tired of hearing all this crap. I bet if you were to go missing the freaking world would stop turning. Ron Paul has more brains in his ass than you have in your head. @DebbieWringles @pl21224

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  18. Jean-FrancoisBeaulieu

    So let see; so far no economist have come to denounce this budget as a fraud, but you have at least…

    Debbie: She misread a couple of 15% on page 4 ( spendings as a percentage of the GDP) and claim that the budget plan states that revenues will increase by 15% per year according to this plan. And when it’s not enough she is misreading elsewhere and bring another fishy claim.

    And now we have SteveMa, who say ” really like Ron Paul [...] but ike Debbie is saying IT DOESN’T ADD UP. There is NO WAY the baseline will increase by 33% in 2 years.”

    And you haven’t try to verify where he took those projected revenues? CBO, Congressional Budget Office, a governmental source:

    http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/123xx/doc12316/Update_SummaryforWeb.pdf, the 3069 $billion of revenues in 2013 are there. So he did not “create” this 3069 $billion of revenue out of thin air, it’s a gouvernemental source, they have their own economists who can include the expiration of some tax breaks, other sources of income, but that is why no economist has come so far to blast his 3069 $billion figure; that would be like attacking all the economists who were behind the CBO.

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    1. DebbieWringles

      @Jean-FrancoisBeaulieu

      Thank you for the link Jean-Francois. It is the last piece of the puzzle needed to understand where Ron Paul’s economic plan goes wrong.

      I have earlier speculated here that the unprecedented 33% increase of the federal revenue predicted in RPs budget and the CBOs projection was that it assumed that the Bush tax cuts would expire. Your document confirms it.

      Look at the first page of the document from the CBO:

      “Those projections …… also reflect the sharp increase in revenues that will occur when provisions of the Tax Relief, Unemployment Insurance Reauthorization, and Job Creation Acto of 2010 (the 2010 tax act) expire.”

      So Ron Pauls budget only works if the Bush tax cuts are allowed to expire for ever and we have as a consequence the largest tax hike since Herbert Hoover was president in the early 30-ies.

      Is that part of RPs economic plan for America ? I do not think so …. and so HIS PLAN DOES NOT WORK !

      His plan would cut the taxes for the wealthy with as much as he would save by cutting the budget and nowhere in it does he talk about rising taxes for everybody by a huge amount by letting the Bush tax cuts expire. Or is that his policy ?

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      1. Jean-FrancoisBeaulieu

        @DebbieWringles I think you should read more carefully before to bring baseless statements. First it was the claim”according to Ron the tooth fairy will bless US and the revenue will increase with 15% year after year”, and he never said that, you just misread the 4 15 % (15.3, 15.27, 15.59 and 15.59) on page 4, which were about the percentage of the GDP that government revenues represent, now it’s about the Bush tax cuts since you said:”What he does not tell you is that his plan only works if the Bush tax cuts expires so that he has a big tax increase in addition”You are wrong again, read carefully on page 4: He SUBSTRACT a line “Tax Extenders 01/03 + Indexed AMT” from the revenues. Your claim that the Bush tax cuts have cost 700 $billion a year to the treasury is probably based on a leftist source. Even the Huffingtonpost, which is HARDLY a far right, pro-republican source, but more than often a leftist source, is giving 11.6 $million/hour, which is 7 times less than your 700 $billionhttp://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/10/14/tax-cuts-for-wealthy-americans_n_1011601.htmlNow this line “Tax Extenders 01/03 + Indexed AMT” (page 4 of his pdf) may include extra items over the Bush tax cuts, plus the projected increase of the losses due to inflation and GDP growth, but even for the year 2016 we are far from your 700 $billion, it starts with -238 $billion in 2013 and reaches -414 $billion in 2016, and it is likely to include more than the Bush tax cuts.The sole thing for which you may be right is that the CBO projections could be too optimistic, and you said he shouldn’t have use these ones. So what should he use???? My guess is that even the democrats use the same CBO projections!!!There is no shame about giving tax cuts; it’s all about his philosophy, small governments.

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      2. Jean-FrancoisBeaulieu

        @DebbieWringles I continue the last message: Ron Paul is not a neocon. The neocons want to increase the taxes on the poor, either with the 9-9-9 plan or either through budget deficits which means monetarizing the debt which mean more inflation, so an indidious tax on the poor and the middle class. The TARP was one example, and the TARP was supported both by Bush AND Obama (there was a phase II for Obama). But the neocons are not for small governments. The democrats are not working for the poor either; they want to tax the rich, but if you extend the concept you look at USSR, Greece, and ultimatelly the poor will pay if the rich leave the country and settle elsewhere. You can tax the rich to some extend, but beyond a certain point you get less revenues if you increase the taxes. A businessman who doesn’t receive subsidies or a surgeon do not steal anyone, they create jobs or offer a service that you are free to accept or refuse. A corporation that receive government money or bailouts IS stealing the middle class. What Obama is doing right now is to funnel money from the poor and the middle class to some rich ( subsidies to corporations, bailouts for the banks, military spendings that go to contractors) and trying to take back a part of that money from ALL the rich, including people like Steve Job, people who never received any subsidies, and funnel it down to the middle class and adding is bucreaucracy on top of this to regulate the flow upward and downward!

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    2. DebbieWringles

      @Jean-FrancoisBeaulieu

      Jean-Francois I see that you have not understood ere my 33% comes from.

      Let me explain.

      The federal revenue in 2011 is 2302 billions. This is an actual number that you can find on many web-sites. The projected income in 2013 by RP and the CBO is 3069 billions.

      Here is the calculation: (3069-2302) / 2302 = 0.333

      So RP predicts that the revenue will increase with a whopping 33% between now and 2013 i.e. before RP would implement his tax and spending cuts.

      Thanks to you, we now know that this unprecedented revenue increase will only happen if the Bush tax cuts are revoked and taxes goes up with another 700 billions per year.

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      1. DebbieWringles

        @Jean-FrancoisBeaulieu Correction:

        Letting the Bush tax cut expire will not generate 700 billions per year but 700 billion during two years.

        The treasury estimates the Bush tax cuts cost 370 billion per year in lost revenue.

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        1. pl21224

          @DebbieWringles@Jean-FrancoisBeaulieu If job creation is a priority, making the Bush tax cuts permanent, and not continuing or creating any new temporary fixes would reduce much of the uncertainty for those who might otherwise begin to create jobs. As long as taxes, regulatory, and other costs necessary for business to plan around remain moving targets it makes more sense to look for safer places to park any cash until which time the target has been fixed and appears unlikely to be moved abruptly.

          Once our money was replaced with the U.S. dollars, which have no true intrinsic value, it became more rational to make use of them as employees in a profitable way in order to produce some semblance of having intrinsic value.

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        2. DebbieWringles

          @pl21224@Jean-FrancoisBeaulieu Am I getting through to you at all ?

          What RP’s plan is saying is ….. vote for RP and he will revoke the Bush tax cuts.

          Do you get it ?

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        3. pl21224

          @DebbieWringles@Jean-FrancoisBeaulieu Ron Pauls plan is saying what he can based on the CBO projections given him. As for the Bush tax cuts, I think both houses of Congress would once again have a word to say, and until they do I have no idea what Ron Paul as President might do with what is sent to him. I haven’t seen his plan for a Federal income tax reform yet.

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        4. Jean-FrancoisBeaulieu

          @DebbieWringles BS! Search on Google, here’s a link:

          http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/10/14/tax-cuts-for-wealthy-americans_n_1011601.html

          “Tax Cuts For Wealthy Americans Cost Treasury $11.6 Million Every Hour: Report”

          This is 100 $billion per year NOT 700 $billion!!!

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      2. Jean-FrancoisBeaulieu

        @DebbieWringles Again you fail to read the numbers! The 3069 $billion is a CBO projection, not his own one, and it does take in account the expiration of the Bush tax cuts so this is why you have such a major increase of the hypothetical revenues. But RP SUBSTRACT the Bush tax cuts after from 3069 $billion plus other items and he gets lower revenues. And the Bush tax cuts were never close to 700 $billion/year, even the .huffingtonpost didn’t want to back such a phony number

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  19. micahbronkell

    If Herman Cain gave up that Social Security crap about adopt the chilean style of Social security he would be okay with me. By the way I am suppose to be moving to North Dakota I here there are a lot of jobs up there they are paying people to flip hamburgers 12 to 17.00 dollars a hour at mc donalds

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  20. SteveMa

    I really like Ron Paul and have been following him and studying austrian economics for over 25 years. I have been waiting so long for someone like Ron Paul to actually have a chance to be the president that it is painful to see this budget.

    Like Debbie is saying IT DOESN’T ADD UP. There is NO WAY the baseline will increase by 33% in 2 years. But the part that is really disturbing about RP’s plan is that he wants to eliminate estate, gift and capital gains taxes and reduce corporate taxes and that will only encourage the 1% to hoard money, gamble and NOT reinvest in businesses.

    But all this tax and spending talk is a moot point because automation and cheap labor has reduced the amount of good paying jobs in America and they are NEVER COMING BACK. And there is NO MAGICAL NEW INDUSTRY coming to create all the necessary jobs. No jobs = no consumers = capitalism is OVER.

    We need a totally new system based on using the scientific method to produce and distribute all human needs, with machines and computers doing most of the work, and humans enjoying life and having true FREEDOM. Money/market is OVER! Science, technology, sharing, cooperation and automation will allow us to EVOLVE.

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    1. drmaddogs

      @SteveMa

      And there is NO MAGICAL NEW INDUSTRY- actually, there are a number of, “borderline” technologies” awaiting in the back ground. A great deal of reluctance to invest in is due to Large Corporations being in control of the subsectors. This “control” is maintained via Regulation. There is a preponderous of evidence that shows the “established ” utilize Regulation, via Public positions(5 Departments). America can develop new Industries, NEW Jobs… it just needs to get the “established” Crony Capitolists out of the way, get the Govt. Public Beauro’s out of the way, get back to opportunity and away from Corporate controls as to what will and what won’t be brought to developement that does or does not threaten existing products or services.

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      1. drmaddogs

        @SteveMa

        When choice is removed in the Private Sector, then of course, jobs won’t be created. When choice can have influence, you’ll see the rate of Regulation slow or reverse. Latest figures are showing Regulation growing @ 6% annum on a compouded basis. The seriousness of the implication is observed when GDP is less than half. Like you say, “New”= startup, regulation =10k$ per employee on a startup(small buissness), Federal is 7500$(small buisness), ..large “buisness is 5000$ per employee.

        America can create jobs.. it just needs to not worry about justifying Public Positions via regulating the market(5 Departments-Big Buissnesses)

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        1. SteveMa

          @drmaddogs

          If Ron Paul ends all wars, brings troops home, stops government spying, torture, rendition, etc., prosecutes corrupt bankers, pardons all non-violent prisoners, he would already be doing more good than any president in history.

          But his budget is very disurbing because it doesn’t add up and it is another reducing capital gains, estate and corporate taxes ONLY help the RICH.

          All this is MOOT, CAPITALISM IS OVER. THERE ARE NO NEW JOBS.

          We do have the technology and resources to create DECENTRALIZED production and distribution systems for ALL HUMAN NEEDS, that do NOT requre massive numbers of human laborers.

          There are NO economic, political or religious answer, ALL SOLUTIONS ARE TECHNICAL. Stop being afraid of the future. We are about to evolve as a species.

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        2. Jean-FrancoisBeaulieu

          @SteveMa@drmaddogs I presume that you come from the left accounting for the sentence “reducing capital gains, estate and corporate taxes ONLY help the RICH.”. If you have no cartel/monopoly and free competition between corporations, lowering the corporate taxes does not help only the rich. If you decide to add a 10% corporate tax on oil firms, the price of gasoline will increase by 10% the day after. Corporations don’t pay taxes, they pass them along the consumer. The goal here is to steal business from a country and bring them the the USA, the price to pay is less revenues at the outset, it’s a gamble.

          “CAPITALISM IS OVER. THERE ARE NO NEW JOBS.”

          Capitalism is over in the USA, during the Bush years it was crony capitalism and with Obama it’s corporatism. But capitalism is thrieving in China and India and curiously, there are new jobs there.

          But regarding the collapse of the middle class in the USA, I have my little theory regarding this, it’s about cheap credit. It’s a bit long to explain again but I found a chart that describes the gap between the rich and the poor and in 1913,when the income tax was created, the gap was almost equivalent to what it was in 1983 with a much higher progressive income tax. However there are 3 episodes where the gap explode, WWI, the roaring 1920’s and 1979 ( especially after 1995). For all those 3 cases you have a period of cheap credit and an enormous expension of the money supply. The gap between the rich and the poor was largelly dug before the Bush tax cuts, when credit cards became widely used.

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        3. SteveMa

          @Jean-FrancoisBeaulieu@drmaddogsIn the old days when owners of corporations actually built them, worked in them and cared about them, they put ALL profits BACK into the company, which is good for everyone.

          But when the rich found out they could buy part of corps and gamble in the stock market, and EXTRACT profits from the businesses, everything became a financial game. Reducing corporate taxes ONLY encourages the elites to EXTRACT more profits out of companies, raising them encourages businesses putting thier profits BACK into their companies. This is very simple.

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        4. SteveMa

          @Jean-FrancoisBeaulieu@drmaddogs

          China and India are DEFINITELY NOT capitalist. Calling everything that is working capitalist and everything that isn’t working socialist is obviously WRONG and a false dichotomy. There are more than 2 options.

          Scientists and engineers create the machines that produce everything we need, whether a government or capitalist is funding them doesn’t matter. So all the argument about ISMs is pointless.

          If you think about it we can just eliminate all those middle men and produce and distribute DIRECTLY. Think beyond your left right bubble. Humans are evolving, you’re welcome to join.

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        5. drmaddogs

          @SteveMa

          ONLY help the RICH- I do not agree. There are always consequences, and the individual steps(Dots) have to be put together. Will it enrich on the front side, absolutly. The rich are supporting the economy now, the rich would support the econy more with more money. Do I think that is good.. how cares,, in the paradigm-money, begets money-some benifits will happen(a few % points increase from the 1% spending). The precept that a single part of the pic is erronious depends on the subsequent failure to instill the one rule everywhere. As long as taxation, for the purpose of supporting centralization(and since it’s always spent(taxs)these taxs are part of the problem) there will always be those whom control others from the aspect they have the “Gold” and can make the rule, whatever rule they wish. This will never ever ever change. Let me repeat, if the $ is there, someone will have an Agenda for self advancement, via,with and capitolized by, in this case, those tax $.

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        6. drmaddogs

          @SteveMa

          A more simple way to put it, no one hangs around without an Agenda, money has one Agenda for the powerful, more money.

          CAPITALISM IS OVER- Capitolish is at the heart of adaptation+defined as?. Capitolism will always exist on some basis.

          THERE ARE NO NEW JOBS.- Duh, – no one will stop new sector/subsector jobs from coming in the future(other than depressions,wars ect…)anymore than one can stop imagination, curiousity being a genetic human trait, or self interest being an expression of self survival.

          Stop being afraid of the future- Not since the day before I was told I had less than 4 years to live, have I lived with fear. Suprisingly, knowing ones mortality is somewhat liberating. And evolution is a constant, so what, who cares, iether someone does or does not evolve.

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        7. Jean-FrancoisBeaulieu

          @SteveMa@drmaddogs The rich were always able to gamble in the stock market, even 80 years ago. The goal of the rich is to extract more profits out of companies, I don’t see where is the problem, my own goal is also to extract more profits from the rich, not with subsidies but by selling them a service or with higher wages. In a normal world the rich can just pocket the difference ( tax rebates) if his competitor is doing the same, but the human nature being what it is, his competitor is likely to lower the price of the goods/services that he is selling because he wants to wipe out his competitor and take his market share. In a normal world the entrepreneur has a big ego and keeping the money rather than hiring engineers to do Research and Devellopment or lowering his price to grow his business is not providing the same level of satisfaction, the same power trip.

          But we are no longer living in a normal world; in today’s world, unfortunatelly a white collar thief is likelly to get away without being prosecuted. In today’s world, you are reward if you gamble and you are bailed out by the government if your gamble led to a disaster. It’s the privatization of the profits and the collectivisation of the losses. Google “Herman Cain Aquila”:

          “[...] roundtrip trades, a scheme in which Aquila would sell a trading partner some energy and then that partner would sell the same amount back to Aquila, a deal that canceled itself out. In the end, nothing actually changed hands. But it boosted Aquila’s trading volume and revenue, sending a positive signal to the markets.”

          So in today’s world, you can boost artificially the price of the shares, convince your employees to buy them, sell them and cash a profit and let the employees lose 94% of their savings. You were right on one thing, such kind of behaviours should not be rewarded. Modernizing the laws could help, hiring more bureaucrats I doubt.

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    2. Jean-FrancoisBeaulieu

      @SteveMa The baseline is based on the CBO, it’s a governmental source, not his own one: http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/123xx/doc12316/Update_SummaryforWeb.pdf

      3069 $billion of revenues in 2013.

      And your conception of the austrian school looks strange to me. “new system based on using the scientific method to produce and distribute”, that sounds like central planning. The core belief of the autrian school is that central planning will never work, the people on the ground are facing new situations and react in real time, the situation is constantly changing and no human brain is powerful enough to planify something like this. The economy is organic, not mechanical. Your concern about which new jobs could be created to replace the jobs that are gone (due to automation), it was probably the concern of some flemish craftsman in the early 19 th century who thought that those new machines to make tissue would drive all the urban population to starve.

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      1. SteveMa

        @Jean-FrancoisBeaulieuCBO has 2011 at 2314 and 2013 at 3069 that IS a 33% increase. Which is BS since there are NO JOBS.

        Actually today 75% of jobs are non-productive pushing papers and manipulating the money system, NOT necessary at all for production. We have been keeping this system going for 40 years where human labor required for human necessities was unnecessary.

        Today technology advances so fast and is so efficient, humans can no longer keep up. The GREAT news is WE DON’T HAVE TO. JUST use the resources and latest technology to produce and distribute to EVERYONE.

        Don’t fear the future. Human are EVOLVING NOW.

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        1. Jean-FrancoisBeaulieu

          @SteveMa Nobody can predict the future correctly, I think also that economists tend to be over optimistic, but he had to rely on the official figures , not to create his own ones when it concern revenues. How often did you hear a republican candidates claiming that he will balance the budget without any cut because with him, there will be “growth”. At least that’s not what RP pretends. And as I said it’s not impossible that such a projected revenue increase is based on the expiration of tax cuts, the end of some deductions, there were no details on the cbo web page on how they got this number.

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  21. pl21224

    It would appear that we currently looking at the following choices to be the POTUS after the 2012 general election. Likely most of us would be able to easily eliminate Obama as acceptable from this list, but from the remaining 9, we should be making a great effort to select one as unanimously as possible prior to the primary elections.

    1. Michele Bachmann

    2. Herman Cain

    3. Newt Gingrich

    4. Jon Huntsman

    5. Gary Johnson

    6. Ron Paul

    7. Rick Perry

    8. Mitt Romney

    9. Rick Santorum

    10. Barack Obama

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    1. micahbronkell

      @pl21224 Bobby JIndal is the only republican that should get the respect I am not on his side but he would be a better choice out of the republican party. I think he is that candidate that the GOP is looking for Bobby Jindal.

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      1. pl21224

        @micahbronkell I guess you could write in Bobby Jindal on the ballot. It looks like we’re headed for another General election where it’s likely that Obama will be defeated, but little if anything will change. Personally, I think both the DNC and the RNC will work hard to assure Mitt Romney as the Republican candidate in the general election, in order to keep us heading in the same direction.

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  22. pl21224

    Are we losing focus on what our objectives should be?

    1. Remove Obama in 2012

    2. And this should be as important, if not more so than removing Obama. Replace Obama with someone who is unwilling to compromise the principles we hold in agreement.

    3. Replace as many members of both houses as possible with others who share our principles.

    Balancing a budget, any budget, can only be accomplished by spending less than the available revenues. This can be accomplished only in 3 ways, increasing revenues, reducing spending. or a combination of both. Considering the size of our current National debt, and even more so if attention to the unfunded, and rapidly growing future liabilities, I would suggest our ONLY viable solution would be to immediately begin to reduce the spending of our Federal government, State governments, including local governments to levels that could be sustained, and to begin reducing the debt held by ALL levels of government.

    As a result of changes which took place in 1913, the Federal Reserve act, 16th and 17th amendments, we have allowed our government at the Federal level to initiate changes which have resulted in making our society more fragile and destined to eventual catastrophic failure. Democracy, when exercised by a large society, with powers to create and enforce laws emanating from a Central source, drastically reduces the power of the people who are governed to make the choices which best serve their interests. Our government was initially founded on the principle of Freedom and Liberty belonging to the individuals, diminished only by their consent in a democratic way to the various levels of government beginning locally, to their respective States, and to the Federal government with the consent of both the people and their States.

    Ron Paul, in my opinion, is the only candidate who seems to understand the problems, their causes, and where the solutions are to be found in solving the many problems we face today.

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    1. micahbronkell

      @pl21224 You say remove Obama, But what will happen when Cain,Romney and Maybe Paul’s vision fail . what then will you rally behind a new candidate when the GOP fails the people…If Paul becomes president and his economic polices fail? will continue to support him? Answer question..

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      1. pl21224

        @micahbronkell I really don’t think Ron Paul would fail us. It would be hard to answer a hypothetical question and would just have to wait until some relevant facts become available to answer that. Perhaps if things were to go awry with Ron Paul as President, he could use Obamas and the Democrats standard answer, “The problems I inherited are much worse than I initially thought.”

        Obviously the changes needed are not going to be all that pleasant immediately in everyones view, but the longer we wait to begin making them, the more difficult they will become.

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