Time: 8:00 – 10:00 PM ET
Moderator: Mike Huckabee
Participants: Michele Bachmann, Newt Gingrich, Jon Huntsman, Ron Paul, Rick Perry, Mitt Romney, Rick Santorum,
Transcript
This is a rush transcript. If you notice any errors please report them using the “Help improve this post” link at the bottom of this post.
Mike Huckabee: Welcome back to Huckabee, this is our special Republican presidential forum, and joining us now is Congressman Ron Paul of Texas. Congressman, it’s good to have you here.
Ron Paul: Thank you, it’s nice to be here.
Mike Huckabee: Your first question comes from Ken Cuccinelli. Ken?
Ken Cuccinelli: Congressman, you advocate for pure constitutionalism. Given that filter, what do you think are the three primary domestic responsibilities of the federal government?
Ron Paul: Domestic responsibilities?
Ken Cuccinelli: Domestic responsibilities.
Ron Paul: Well, protecting the borders, providing a sound economy, a sound currency; that’s in the constitution very clearly and that’s a major issue. And really, enforcing the Bill of Rights, those are very specific in looking at all, and that would be property rights as well as freedom of speech and all those other things. So those would be the major issues. Of course, the constitution overall would be a major issue as well.
Scott Pruitt: Congressman, good evening to you. In 1995, we lost a 168 Oklahomans in a domestic terrorist attack. My assistant attorney general, Melisa Houston, is a survivor of that blast, and has spent many years after that, utilizing tools in the PATRIOT Act, fighting domestic terrorism. You have come out opposed to the PATRIOT Act based upon constitutional privacy concerns, and I, too, share some of your concerns with respect to privacy. But what [substitute] or thoughtful alternative do you have to the Patriot Act to prevent further acts of domestic terrorism in the future?
Ron Paul: The one thing is, if you say your goal is preventing all crimes and all criminal acts, you destroy liberty by doing that. But if the PATRIOT Act would have been called the “Repeal the 4th Amendment [Act]“, it wouldn’t have passed. That’s essentially what that does. So that’s way too much sacrifice of liberty. But, you know, there are laws in the books for violent acts, but if you think you can pass enough laws to prevent all crimes and all acts of violence, just think of the acts of violence occurring in our households? Are you going to put cameras in every household or whatever? So I don’t think it’s a lack of laws that is our problem.
Scott Pruitt: So, Congressman, you don’t believe that there needs to be a comprehensive law at the federal level, equipping law enforcement to prevent domestic terrorism in this country?
Ron Paul: I don’t believe we need a comprehensive law at the federal level, I believe we need state laws against violence. The one law that we do have at the national level that we totally ignore, is that terrorism is a crime and it’s not a war. And yet we have drifted off to it being called, “This is a war on terrorism” and it’s a justification to pursue war not only around the world, but even domestically. So I would say it’s a crime. But the constitution, I think, is very clear, there’s nothing in our constitution that says that violent acts should be a prerogative of the government. They didn’t offer a national police force. Even today, if you’re talking about criminal acts of violence, murder, manslaughter, robbery, that’s all a state issue. This nationalization of law enforcement … we have already a 100,000 federal bureaucrats carrying guns, we don’t need any more federal policemen. And I think that the problem isn’t a lack of federal laws and federal policemen.
Pam Bondi: Congressman, what would you call the attacks right around the corner on the Twin Towers in New York City, what would you call those?
Ron Paul: Well, that’s an act of violence.
Pam Bondi: Was that an act of terrorism, Congressman?
Ron Paul: Yea, it’s a terrorist attack. And we do have responsibility in protecting our borders and all. But it’s an act of terrorism, and we have responsibility, we should be checking our borders and finding out who’s coming in. But we ought to understand that whole problem, rather than just saying that what we need is more federal policemen, and it’s a lack of federal police activity and federal guns that will make us safer. But if you don’t understand exactly the motivation and all the problems of why we’re facing this crisis and why people want to come here and kill us, just more laws won’t do it. I mean, this whole thing is all messed up because what we have been told for 10 years is that people want to come here and commit acts of terrorism against us because we’re free and prosperous. As long as people believe that, believe me, you’re not going to solve the problem, you’re not going to make the people any safer.
Pam Bondi: We don’t want you to run out of time; different topic, Congressman Paul. President Obama has had the audacity to say that the Republican approach to the economy means, “Dirtier air, dirtier water, and less people with health insurance”. Is that really what less federal regulation means?
Ron Paul: Hardly. Matter of fact, I get charged with that all the time, you know, because I don’t want the federal regulations, and most Republicans conservatives don’t need, or think we need, more federal regulations, and say, “Oh, you’re going to have people in the streets and no medical care”. The whole thing is, if you don’t have regulations, say, in the environment, or banking regulations, actually, the market is a real strict regulator, it’s strict at regulations. Our problem today is when you write the regulations, say, on drugs, the drug companies get involved and they write the regulations. Banking regulations are written by the banking community, they become the lobbyist. So it isn’t the lack of regulations. But if you have the market, you have property rights, you have contract rights, and you have bankruptcy laws, and those are strictly enforced. It wasn’t the lack of regulations that caused the ENRON scandal, but it was the market that took care of it. Those individuals were convicted in Texas court for fraud, and they went to prison. So, no, we have to answer back, I think we do a lousy job on that. The liberals grab moral high ground and say, “We’re going to take care of everybody, if we don’t do it, people are going to be suffering, there won’t be any medical care.” So it is up to us to argue the case that the market can answer that. The free market and property rights can solve just about all these problems, much better than more bureaucrats in Washington.
Mike Huckabee: Congressman, we have to take a break at this point, we will come back for more with Congressman Ron Paul, right after this break. So stay with us.
Let’s continue with Texas congressman Ron Paul, and for the next question, Scott Pruitt.
Scott Pruitt: Congressman, you have said on Fox News Sunday that Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security are unconstitutional. I presume that that means that you will eliminate those programs, how will you do it? Tell me how.
Ron Paul: You think so? Yea, I do believe. You all work on Obama Care, you talk about it being unconstitutional because there’s a mandate. But how many other programs in medicine do we have that are all mandates? Does anybody get to not have to pay Medicare taxes? No. I looked at Article 1 Section 8, where does it say anything that the government should be involved in education or medicine? So the question is, how do you get rid of it?
Scott Pruitt: How do you get rid of it?
Ron Paul: Well, you can’t do that overnight, matter of fact, I go to the extreme of saying that, for those individuals who have been totally dependent (the children and the elderly right now), to start with that to cut our budget – because we have this horrible budget crisis – I said it would just create anarchy, it would be so bad. But if we want to save this country, we have to cut. So I have a program where I want to cut a trillion dollars. A bunch of it comes from overseas, and a bunch of it comes from five departments; going back to the budget of 2006. Actually I would preserve some of these programs. And when I present this program, I say, “… for the purpose of phasing them out”. For instance, my program actually allows people under 25 to get out of Social Security. But to cut that off and think you can do that over night, isn’t going to work. So you have to have a transition program. But technically speaking, they ask me if it’s constitutional? No, where is the authority, I don’t know where the authority is. There’s no authority for one penny to be spent at the federal government to run education. And I think that that’s why we’re in such trouble, there’s no respect at all for the constitution.
Ken Cuccinelli: Congressman, if you’re very clear you think they’re unconstitutional, why would you sign a budget that contains something unconstitutional?
Ron Paul: Because other than that, you have two choices: you either can work your way out of this, or you wait until it collapses and we have to rebuild it. And I’m just saying that even when the Federal Reserve – everybody knows my position on the Federal Reserve, and it’s unconstitutional – but I don’t advocate that you close down the Federal Reserve tomorrow. I advocate competing currencies and work out of it. So I have transitions programs, and that makes a big difference.
Ken Cuccinelli: Okay, let me move to another topic. Which comes first in your mind, the sovereignty of the people, the sovereignty of the states, or the sovereignty of the federal government, and please put them in order?
Ron Paul: Well, the people and the states, and then the federal government; very little for the federal government. And none for international governments like the UN and NATO to get authority for the things that we do around the world.
Scott Pruitt: Okay. Congressman, are there any amendments to the constitution that you believe are mistakes? Try to keep it to a few.
Ron Paul: Pardon me?
Scott Pruitt: Try to keep it to a few.
Ron Paul: I’m not quite hearing you.
Mike Huckabee: He said, try to keep it to a few.
Ron Paul: Oh, a few. And you said, ‘amendments to the constitution’. Well, one of the worst was the prohibition, which led to a horrible decade, and then we repealed that one; the repeal [amendment] was very great. There’s not much, but obviously, the Bill of Rights, those are amendments and they’re great. The other ones are sort of not enough for me to get rattled up about, but I’m so concerned about not following the constitution that we have on property rights and rule of law and the monetary issues and going to war issues; those are the kind of things I’m very concerned about in the constitution.
Mike Huckabee: We’re in our final minute, by the way.
Pam Bondi: We’re short on time, quick question. If you could suggest every American read one book, what would it be?
Ron Paul: One book excluding something religiously oriented?
Pam Bondi: It could be.
Ron Paul: Well, I think, to simplify things, to get a message out, since we’re talking about politics and the law, if people want to read a short book to really wake them up on what the law should be, they should read a book called “The Law” by Bastiat. If they read that and find out the moral principle behind law, saying that you, as an individual, can’t do certain things. But if you can’t do it, the government can’t do it. If you can’t steal from your neighbor, you can’t send the politician to steal from your neighbor. The law is a basic principle worth starting with, and I think it would introduce a great idea to a lot of people.
Mike Huckabee: Thank you, Congressman Ron Paul, and also we will have a chance to visit with you at the end of the forum.
Thank you Governor Rick Perry. Our next candidate is Congressman Ron Paul of Texas. Congressman Paul?
Ron Paul: Thank you, Mike. Tonight we talked a lot about the relationship of the federal government with the state government, and we’ve realized it’s such a mess because we’ve turned the constitution on its head. Today, the federal government is very big and the states are very little and it is a consequence of our carelessness with the constitution. Our Congresses, our courts, as well as the executive branch, have taken over too much of the power. Now it falls upon the states, because they are suffering the consequences. And the states have this responsibility to do something about it. But the one issue that I think we have to revisit, because the founders understood it but we have forgotten about it, and that is the principle of nullification. If the federal government won’t respond, and I would if I can, I would respond in the favorable way of reinstituting the principle of nullification. The states have to be able to nullify this, this would reverse the trend, and this would stop the usurpation of all the powers and privileges from the states to the federal government.
Mike Huckabee: Thank you very much, Congressman Ron Paul.
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http://www.loshijosdelamalinche.com/en/opinion/why-republicans-should-take-ron-paul-seriously-15022012
Please read this article.
Hope you like it.
Thanks
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The Constitution is the message. Ron Paul is the messenger. We simply gave him a musical backdrop.
Share the video, Post it, Email it, Twitter it!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q5Ysx8Rk_ME&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL
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New Funny Video Made in Support of Ron Paul. Watch and Share to Help Me Help Ron Paul.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HYlgoJcL5M0
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Ron Paul 2012!! I just posted a story about a common misconception about Dr. Paul. Head over and check it out, if you like it give me a follow. http://www.prettymama-libertariangirl.blogspot.com
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@WallyDow
Thank You. That’s right “Constitutional Republic”
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Oh Ron Paul, You just have to win! I have always been interested in history and politics. But I have NEVER seen a politician like you before. What a refreshing
thing it is to see someone like you in politics! You Are Amazing and so wise!!
I want to thank you for standing up for what you believed in all these years, even though you often stood alone. You are a man of courage and integrity.
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@Martin Smith@Let Liberty Prevail I have studied this for years in political science. America is actually, according to the framers, a “Constitutional Republic”. Democracy has never succeeded.
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Terrorism is the prolem with RP winning. If RP doesn’t win the terroist win. To many people are willing to give up liberty in favor of security. I believe, as I think most people do but don’t like to admit is, if our government had’nt stuck it’s nose in other countries affairs we would not have had 911.
That being said let me play devils advocate for a minute. Here is a question: If RP was President on 9/11 how whould he have handled it? The wheels where already in motion then, as maybe they are now (God I hope not).
I am 100% RP for president but foreign policy is what seems to be the sticking point when talking to most people. How do you get people to believe we can have peace after having lived with war, and violence all over the world for so many years.
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RP is for a strong defense. Strong borders. Catch the terrorists at the borders before they get inside and cause damage. For the terrorists already inside the US, we beef up the cybersecurity (these radical ideas are spread across the Internet into accepting minds), and work within the 4th admentment. That fixes the problem in the short run.
In the long run, we got to get out of all these countries. It’s bad juju to be in all these countries. The average citizen of these countries only see us as evil. We are over extended. If we retract, no doubt some of our present enemies will extend their reach further, but let them. Let our enemies ruin their own economies.
It’s okay for a great nation to fallback to stronger positions.
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I love Ron Paul, but I think he’s not getting his message about terrorism across correctly.
We have to look at it like this.
2,800 people died on Sept 11, 2011. It was the single biggest loss of life in America. Yes it was caused by terrorists.
So the question is what was our response? we sent 6,000 US soldiers overseas to die. How is that an appropriate response? Imagine if Osama Bin Laden’s goal was to kill 10,000 Americans, but he only succeeded in killing 2,800. So we send him an additional 6,000 to kill, so his tally is up to 8,800.
3,500 people (mostly children) die in swimming pools annually. Should we not have a ‘war on swimming pools’ then? A federal law that every swimming pool have a camera that is linked to a central ‘Federal Bureau of Water Safety’? Would that improve the safety of swimming pools? would removing our civil liberties and right to privacy be ‘worth it’ to ‘save’ those 3,500 people annually?
A federal solution would mandate pools be at most 1ft deep. Of course 7,000 people would die annually of head trauma by diving into shallow pools, but by Federal measures, the law will be a success, since the rate of drownings will decrease to < 100.
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@Libertarian777
You’re pointing out the REACTIONARY Leadership that is characteristic of American’s Government.
We still haven’t learned to stop punching the proverbila “Tar Baby” where every offense requires an Over-Reaction!
The REAL enemy is the FED and Our Drunken Spending binges.
Osama Bin Laden knew well that America’s Achilles Heel is “spending” and WE will destroy ourselves from within!
RP messageis spot on, Balance the Budget!!
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I love Ron Paul, but I think he’s not getting his message about terrorism across correctly.
We have to look at it like this.
2,800 people died on Sept 11, 2011. It was the single biggest loss of life in America. Yes it was caused by terrorists.
So the question is what was our response? we sent 6,000 US soldiers overseas to die. How is that an appropriate response? Imagine if Osama Bin Laden’s goal was to kill 10,000 Americans.
3,500 people (mostly children) die in swimming pools annually. Should we not have a ‘war on swimming pools’ then? A federal law that every swimming pool have a camera that is linked to a central ‘Federal Bureau of Water Safety’? Would that improve the safety of swimming pools? would removing our civil liberties and right to privacy be ‘worth it’ to ‘save’ those 3,500 people annually?
A federal solution would mandate pools be at most 1ft deep. Of course 7,000 people would die annually of head trauma by diving into shallow pools, but by Federal measures, the law will be a success, since the rate of drownings will decrease to < 100.
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Ron Paul did great, as usual. He may not be the most eloquent speaker but one does not have to be when they are speaking the truth. Check out my blog to discuss these issues http://www.prettymama-libertariangirl.blogspot.com
Ron Paul 2012!!!!
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First why even waste time with a hard core Socialist that – as it apears – dosen’t even live in this country. Don’t cast pearls among swine.
I don’t think RP did bad in the forum yeserday. He wasn’t as shinny as the other guys, but you can bet the people in this country relate more to his lack luster truth than the same old shinny BS the other clowns are dishing out. Maybe he was tired – tired of the media playing the same ratings game year after year at the expense of liberty, truth and peace.
76? who cares, you can be certain he will surround himeself with people that think like he does and will carry on when he’s gone, wether it’s 1 year or 20 years.
WAKE UP PEOPLE! It’s a big game and this may be the final bet. I’m going all in on RP.
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Ron Paul has been asked these questions many times before. He’s probably tired of answering them. Yet, he is learning how to explain his positions a little differently. He used the word “transition” a lot to drive home the point that ‘No, people will not suddenly stop receiving their welfare checks.’ RP knows his ideas represent major shifts from current ideas, and it’ll take time for people to adjust. It’s popular right now for the media to portral RP’s policies as seemingly against sick and poor people, when they are not.
I recommend all RP followers spend some time learning about Austrian Economics. I am doing this and have become very impressed with what has impressed RP.
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Anti war , anti Military spending , anti bailouts , anti federal reserve , personal liberty and freedom.
Ron Paul 2012.
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@Let Liberty Prevail
Don’t be so Naive…. those are EVERYTHING the Status Quo GOP (supporters) don’t want!
The Military Industrial Complex DEPENDS on the GOP supporting the Status Quo.
And Guess What… RP does not!
Do the math
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtube_gdata_player&v=8PCooxY_bds
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Check out this trends report I pulled up on Google:
http://www.google.com/trends?q=Ron+Paul%2C+Newt+Gingrich%2C+Rick+Santorum%2C+Mitt+Romney&ctab=0&geo=all&date=ytd&sort=0
As you can see, there are way more people searching for Ron Paul than any other candidate, and below the main graph, you can see how the news stories cover other candidates more than him. I think the news should be following what the public is interested in, and not the other way around.
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@dubbya.wow
Unfortunately…. The GOP isn’t interested in Ron Paul….
And the GOP is in charge of the Money and “they” don’t like RP for his position on Monetary Policy, i.e. The FED keeps spending America into financial ruin.
Gee… what ever could they be thinking, They arn’t…thinking
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@Citizen Perhaps you missed the news that RP has been rising in the polls in the early primary states and picking up Cain’s supporters? Last time I checked, the GOP is traditionally known for wanting to end wars and put people to work. I don’t see one other candidate who is interested in both of those besides RP.
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@dubbya.wow
I know, I know….
But the GOP has supports the Military Industrial Complex agenda.
THEY don’t want to restrict the Warfare money stream as RP is threatening to do.
It REAL simple people…. Ron Paul is proposing REAL CHANGE and that’s WHY the GOP doesn’t want him to win this one.
WE the People might want an end to the Wars
BUT
The Military Industrialists DON’T
So what part don’t WE understand?
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America is a Republic and Not a Democracy.
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@Let Liberty Prevail Your claim: “America is a Republic and Not a Democracy.”
A republic is a form of democracy. The standard alternative term is “representative democracy.”
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@Let Liberty Prevail Your claim: “America is a Republic and Not a Democracy.”
A republic is a form of democracy. The standard alternative term is “representative democracy.”
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http://thyblackman.com/2011/11/29/will-ron-paul-be-the-last-man-standing/comment-page-1/#comment-14668
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It is NOT left versus right- both are corrupt! Notice how obama has just extended and expanded everything that Bush did? They are NO different. America needs real change! We need a doctor!! Dr. Ron Paul 2012.
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@Let Liberty Prevail
YOU’RE absolutely correct….
BUT I’m afraid that Dr. Paul is running out of steam, his performance on the Huckabee show was dismal and tired.
His energy is missing, this Presidentilal race is a much yonger mans game.
I love Dr Paul, there is NO better man in our Government…. but I’m genuiely concerned for his health!
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I don’t share your concern for his health, respectfully.
The health of his message and ideas have never been stronger. RP is still in the race.
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Ron Paul is the Hottest mna in America and is winning Time magazine poll Man of the Year. (Even though Time magazine has been extremely unfair to Ron Paul, going as far as to photo crop him out of the picture on their cover and not mentioning him once in the story.)
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America has not had Capitalism but Corporatism. The Federal Reserve is the biggest Corporation of all. Research the Federal Reserve Act 1913- Woodrow Wilson.
Doctor Ron Paul draws his beliefs from John Locke, Ludwig Von Mises, Murray Rothbard, Hans Hermann Hoppe, Carl Menger, F.A. Hayek, Randolph Bourne, Lew Rockwell and others of the Austrian school of economics.
Ron Paul stands for Individual Liberties and the Rights of We the People.
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@Let Liberty Prevail “You write: “Ron Paul stands for Individual Liberties and the Rights of We the People.”
So do I, but my philosophy is quite different from Paul’s. That’s why he won’t win. His followers believe they stand for liberty and no one else does.
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@Martin Smith
It is much more productive to stand and fight for what you believe in.. then to fight against what you don’t believe in. You would be more productive promoting your ideas elsewhere. I believe that in a Free society we all have the right to be ourselves, love who we want, keep our hard earned money and the choice to help who we want to help. I am also an advocate for childrens rights, a volunteer.. I am a voice in court for foster children. This means I spend alot of times with them and everyone involved in their lives, I receive phone calls from these children when they are suicidal, being beaten, or when they want to share their accomplishments,. I see first hand how I as a volunteer do more for these children the the paid
workers.
Also healthcare on a free market makes sense to me because it creates competition which creates better quality services and lower prices.
Maybe you and I have different ideas of Liberties and Rights.
But I want you to have rights too. Government entitlements are not rights. The more the government is involved in your life, the more control they have over you.
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@Let Liberty Prevail@Martin
Ditto on that note..
Less Government is More prosperity for the People
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@Let Liberty Prevail
You wrote: “Also healthcare on a free market makes sense to me because it creates competition which creates better quality services and lower prices.”
The example of the US health care system compared to either the Norwegian or the Australian health care system shows that your claim is false. I have the sense that you believe it must be true because you have been indoctrinated with Austrian School beliefs. But real world systems show your belief to be false.
You wrote: ” Maybe you and I have different ideas of Liberties and Rights. But I want you to have rights too. Government entitlements are not rights. The more the government is involved in your life, the more control they have over you.”
I have lived in three countries: The USA, Australia, and Norway. Of the three, the USA has the most intrusive government by far. Yet Australia and Norway make far more use of collectivism.
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You wrote: “The example of the US health care system compared to either the Norwegian or the Australian health care system shows that your claim is false.”
How so? Are their markets truly free markets?
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You wrote: “The example of the US health care system compared to either the Norwegian or the Australian health care system shows that your claim is false.”
How so? Are their markets truly free markets?
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Continued…
Not to mention that YOU Socialist also ignore the entire Market Pricing Factors for delivery of Health Care services. Thus transfering producers wealth to non-producers via socialist czars who Think for the Collective!
Still insisting on a “one size fits all”, as a health system that works reaonably well in a 95% ALL White culture..
Socialism aka The Borg, “you will be assimilated” NOT!
Scotty… activate the photon torpedos
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@Citizen Citizen writes, incorrectly: ”
Not to mention that YOU Socialist also ignore the entire Market Pricing Factors for delivery of Health Care services. Thus transfering producers wealth to non-producers via socialist czars who Think for the Collective!”
You are referring to the fact that the Norwegian health care system pays a fraction of what America pays for its drugs. That’s another example of how collectivism works to the advantage of the collective. In this case, collective bargaining. The result speaks for itself. It’s ALL about the money.
Citizen, wrong again: “Still insisting on a “one size fits all”, as a health system that works reaonably well in a 95% ALL White culture..”
I don’t know where you got that nonsense, but there is no such thing as “one size fits all” here. Those with jobs pay into the collective according to how much money they earn. It’s just part of the income tax. When you need health care, you get the health care you need.
Like I said, Ron Paul can win, if he admits that collectivism works and vows to use it where appropriate, i.e. health care, mass transit, schools, pensions. If he doesn’t he won’t win.
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@Martin Smith
Martin,
Collectivism works well in your “Nordic culture” where there is little “diversity” of cultures and yov’e Nationalized your ONLY source of revenues, oil and lumber and your country is $276 Billion GDP (<2% of USA GDP) and one of the MOST expensive places in the world to. When the oil runs out… hold on to your ass!
Here in American, "Collectivism" has been tried since 1932 and isn't working…. by fact that the Tax system, unlike yours, is fully weighted against the top 1/3rd wage earners. Add to that the size of our government at 24% of GDP and our Interventionist WarFare State agendas, "We've Run Out of Other People's Money" (M. Thatcher)
So NO, Collectivism DOES NOT WORK!… And even Norway is heading for a major catastrophic economic awakening
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@Citizen Citizen writes: “Collectivism works well in your “Nordic culture” where there is little “diversity” of cultures”
Nonsense. Collectivism works well because it is a sound principle. There are diverse cultures in Norway. And besides that, collectivism also works in all the other countries of Europe. Collectivism also works in the US, where there is a collectivist military, even with diverse cultures. Collectivism is as sound a principle as individualism.
Citizen then writes: “and yov’e Nationalized your ONLY source of revenues, oil and lumber and your country is $276 Billion GDP (<2% of USA GDP) and one of the MOST expensive places in the world to. When the oil runs out… hold on to your ass!"
Wrong again. Noway has many sources of revenue besides oil. Only oil and gas are nationalized. But Americans could nationalize there oil too. Why should Americans get to reap the benefits of their own resources.
But you are also wrong about Norway's oil money. Norway doesn't spend it. If it did, our taxes would be much lower than they are. No, Norway actually uses much of its oil money to buy US DEBT! How about that! YOU are living on Norway's oil money!
Citizen writes, incorrectly again: "Here in American, "Collectivism" has been tried since 1932 and isn't working."
You can't be serious. The US military is paid for collectively. The research projects that produced the Integrated circuit, the internet, and the Boeing 747 were all funded collectively by the Dept of Defense using public tax funds. When you're wrong, you're really WRONG.
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@Martin Smith
YOU SAY: “All other countries in Europe are collectivism and they are working….”
NOT…. The EU is collapsing under the weight of the Collective transfer system. Entitlements are un-funded and the Riots are rising. The EU is broke…
As for Norway buying US Debt… my sincere appologies. You’ve been duped and your “investments” have just lost 42% this past 2 years. Really I’m so sorry, you deserve better… BUY GOLD and SILVER
Forget US T-Bills
Our US Military is not a “collectivist” system. 58% is paid for by tax collections, 42% is borrowed (from Norway and others) and is NEVER going to be paid back….Again, so sorry!
Those “research projects” were paid for by PRIVATE industry and shareholder risk, not our Government. However now, our GOV believes IT should risk Tax Payers money on green money losing schemes like “Solyndra” Central Planing DOES NOT WORK!
Central Planners are Idiots
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@Citizen
Citizen writes: “The EU is collapsing under the weight of the Collective transfer system. Entitlements are un-funded and the Riots are rising. The EU is broke…”
No, that’s false. The EU is having problems precisely because it is organized the way the first US was organized. The EU charter is much the same as the Articles of Confederation. The problem now is to quickly turn the EU into a federation like the US Constitution did in 1789. The EU isn’t as broke as the US is. The EU’s problem is the ECB won’t print money like the US fed does.
Citizen writes: “As for Norway buying US Debt… my sincere appologies. You’ve been duped and your “investments” have just lost 42% this past 2 years. Really I’m so sorry, you deserve better…”
We aren’t complaining. We pay for everything as we go, with high taxes. We get good value for our tax money. And we aren’t worried about the US defaulting. It will print its way out of the worst of it. Our money will be worth less, but so will everyone else’s, so it won’t matter much.
Citizen writes: “Our US Military is not a “collectivist” system. 58% is paid for by tax collections, 42% is borrowed (from Norway and others) and is NEVER going to be paid back….Again, so sorry!”
That’s what a collective is. The collective pays money in to a central pool, and the money is spent to provide the best level of service possible as efficiently as possible.
Citizen writes, incorrectly again: “Those “research projects” were paid for by PRIVATE industry and shareholder risk, not our Government.”
No, all three were funded by public tax money via the DoD. The 747 was Boeing’s entry in the AF transport contract. The DoD paid for the design of each entrant. Boeing lost to the C5A, but Bowing got to keep the IP and turned it into the 747 we know today. The other two projects were even more developed with tax money.
Citizen writes: “However now, our GOV believes IT should risk Tax Payers money on green money losing schemes like “Solyndra”"
Of course. That’s how the oil sector and the coal sector were started, and those two STILL receive many forms of government subsidies, so you can’t be angry about renewable energy companies being funded the same way.
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@Martin Smith@Citizen
Hi there. I live in Norway and our health care system is not something I would say is anything near perfect. In fact, the waiting lines are getting bigger and bigger, more people buy private health insurances. From 2003 to 2009 the amount of people who had a private health insurance Sextupled and if the trend continues 1 out 4 will have an health insurance by 2015. I am one of those people.
I’m in need for a specialist, I’ve been on the waiting list for three months now and I won’t be getting my appointment before february 2012. In a free market society I could have chosen who I wanted the treatment from, but not here… Since I live in a small city there are no private options for me to choose from. Why? Because they are over regulated and the government has driven out the competition. I would gladly consider a private alternative if I had one to choose from!
but hey… if you are willing to give up your freedom and your money for the collective good, I can’t stop you. Vote Obama.
Source (translated by google translate):
http://translate.google.no/translate?sl=no&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=no&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dagbladet.no%2F2009%2F08%2F23%2Fnyheter%2Fvalg09%2Fpolitikk%2Finnenriks%2Fregjeringen%2F7777950%2F&act=url
The conservative party made an ad about this in 2009:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2o1qjtA8JaQ
To understand this ad you have to use google translate as well.
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@Martin Smith
Martin, ALSO….
America has been and continues to pay for its spend thrift ways by PRINTING.
We don’t have the money, and China won’t lend us anymore, so the FED is printing and distributing the wealth around the world.
Last July, we found out (partial audit) that the FED created (out of thin air) 2009 an estimated $7.7 TRILLION in bogus money. Thus diluting our personal retirement savings by 46%. Our wealth is GONE…. dispursed across the globe to pay for our Police State enterprises.
There is NO possible way to compare Norway to the USA.
Social Collectivism is La-La Land thinking and fails miserably when applied to OUR real world issues.
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The president we have to elect is about good ideas not the perfect delivery on national television. If you want to continue to send our troops to die for other countries and a less rights and a bloated government vote for someone other than Ron Paul. If you want smaller government, less taxes and most of all PEACE, Vote Ron Paul. For me, it is not a difficult choice.
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I would vote for you for President, if you weren’t an absolutist, but as an absolutist, I don’t see your philosophy as being any more workable than any other absolutist view. I believe that individual liberty is a basic moral principle, but it isn’t the only basic moral principle. I think you could win, not only the nomination but also the election, if you would embrace collectivism where collectivism works better than individualism. Competition isn’t the only self-organizing principle. Cooperation is also a self-organizing principle. You could interest legions of progressives to vote for you, if you admitted that collectivist systems in public health care and public transportation serve the individual better than individualist systems do. You only have to look at the Scandinavian countries, for example, or even Canada next door, to see public health care systems that cost much less per person but provide excellent health care. Look at the public transport system in Oslo, Norway. No private system in the US comes close.
Nor would you be compromising your libertarian ideals by embracing collectivism. Imagine an America where all Americans were strict individualists. Do you really think life would be better in that America than in Norway or Sweden or Denmark?
I think you would win in a landslide if you announced this: “After studying the collectivist systems of Norway and Sweden, I have decided to add collectivism to my platform. f elected I will ask Congress to pass legislation to create a universal public health care system in America along the lines of Norway or Australia.”
I would vote for you.
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@Martin Smith He is NOT an absolutist. Did you not hear him say “If we got rid of social programs or the federal reserve, there would be anarchy. We would have a transitional period” – As far as “collectivist systems” – any time you ad a layer of government the cost and efficiency and quality is going to go down. I can look at any public system and find waste.Ron Paul should win in a landslide because he will END THE WARS! Bring all the troops homes. This should be enough for progressives to join on board. Because I guarantee, Ron Paul is MORE progressive than Obama. Obamacare is better for corporations than it is for the people.
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@LenGrady A transitional period to what? I think he meant a transition away from collectivist systems. That would be a mistake.
“any time you ad a layer of government the cost and efficiency and quality is going to go down.” That’s the point that is proved false by the universal single-payer systems in Norway and in Australia, to name just two. The efficiency and quality in these systems is better than the overall efficiency and quality in the US. That’s my experience having used all three.
“I can look at any public system and find waste.” That’s true of ALL systems, collectivist or individualist. There are no manmade systems, including pure free market capitalism, that don’t waste resources. Nor is profit the only way to judge efficiency in a system. Level of service is equally important. The level of service in the health care systems in Norway and Australia is much higher than in the US, again, from experience.
“Ron Paul should win in a landslide because he will END THE WARS! Bring all the troops homes. This should be enough for progressives to join on board.”
That won’t get progressives to vote for him, because Obama is already doing that. Ron Paul can’t win by doing things the Democrats and Republicans will do anyway. He has to differentiate himself by embracing politics that no one else will embrace. He can do that by embracing collectivism where collectivism works.
“Because I guarantee, Ron Paul is MORE progressive than Obama.”
That’s not saying much, and it isn’t saying anything at all socially. Progressives will not vote for RP with his strict libertarian view on social programs. If he doesn’t change that, he won’t win, so it won’t matter.
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@Martin Smith Canada and Norway don’t have excellent health care systems, did you know there is a lottery for medical care in those countries? I have relatives in Canada, one with a serious Health condition and their government is not accommodating in the least, they routinely come to the states to get treatment. Canada doesn’t even have basic handicap access-abilities, such as handicap ramps for public buildings. And you want to model our Health care system after this?
Really though besides this I think a bigger concern is the principle of the matter; the view that people should be forced to pay for a healthcare system for their own good(Why should the Government decide what is good for me?, that’s socialism/communism).While I agree many people can’t afford basic healthcare and it’s costs are absolutely ridiculous, I’m not to convinced the Government intervening will help this cause, as anything the government involves itself in it inflates the cost of greatly, diminishes the quality of, and this process is very hard to undo.
Im also writing this as someone who can’t afford healthcare my-self either, while I think this is a great problem, by no means do I think that the answer is for other people to pay for it for me, forcibly from the hands of Government.
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@beatrixkiddo beatrix writes: “Canada and Norway don’t have excellent health care systems, did you know there is a lottery for medical care in those countries?”
No, Beatrix, there is no lottery. I live in Norway. The health care system is excellent.
Beatrix then writes: “Canada doesn’t even have basic handicap access-abilities, such as handicap ramps for public buildings. And you want to model our Health care system after this?”
That’s ironic, Beatrix, because ALL of those handicap accessibility benefits you have in the US were mandated by the federal government. BIG GOVERNMENT. And yes, we have even better handicap accessibility in Norway paid for by the universal, single-payer health care system.
Beatrix then writes: “Really though besides this I think a bigger concern is the principle of the matter; the view that people should be forced to pay for a healthcare system for their own good…”
But that was my original point, Beatrix. Ron Paul is absolutist on this issue. As long as he remains absolutist on this issue, he won’t be elected. So stand on your principle, if you will, but it means you will never govern.
Beatrix finally writes: “Im also writing this as someone who can’t afford healthcare my-self either, while I think this is a great problem, by no means do I think that the answer is for other people to pay for it for me, forcibly from the hands of Government.”
On the surface, that seems very noble of you, Beatrix, but you are advocating against your own interests.
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@Martin Smith@beatrixkiddo
If you believe that a nation of individualists will only compete and never cooperate, and that people will not cooperate unless forced to at the point of a gun, perhaps you are thinking of yourself. Most of us are not like that.
And as for advocating against one’s own interest, it is very telling that you use this argument. You are showing your selfishness agains, thinking that people should and would only advocate for their own interests. Most of us are not like you in this way either. We advocate policies not because we think that we personally will benefit from them, to the disadvantage of someone else. We advocate policies because we believe they are RIGHT. You should try it sometime.
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@Martin Smith@beatrixkiddo
Martin,
What ALL of YOU Socialist kook-aid drinkers fail to say is that EVERYONE in those Nordic countries pay taxes. Unlike other Western countries (America) that force the top 30% to pay for the benefits of the 70% via Tax Policy Transfers.
And what they can’t raise in taxes…. they borrow 40% or just PRINT the money.
What YOU Socialists also conveinetly ignore is that the Nordic countries do not have high percentage of diverse cultures of lesser educated ethnic groups. In fact recent news from Norway has stated that the non-white genetically Norway groupes are being isolated in separate classes.
So much for your Socialist Utopian ideas, which DO NOT work anywhere in the REAL WORLD.
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@Citizen Citizen writes: “What ALL of YOU Socialist kook-aid drinkers fail to say is that EVERYONE in those Nordic countries pay taxes. ”
Citizen, I live in Norway, so your accusation is utterly false. I’m not anywhere near the 1%, but I pay about 50% of my salary in income tax and sales tax. The 1% pay a lot more than that.
Citizen then writes: “What YOU Socialists also conveinetly ignore is that the Nordic countries do not have high percentage of diverse cultures of lesser educated ethnic groups. In fact recent news from Norway has stated that the non-white genetically Norway groupes are being isolated in separate classes.”
Nope. No one is being isolated here. And the fact that America has too many poorly educated citizens is your fault. Norway takes in more refugees than America on a per capita basis, but we educate them. Public schools.
Finally, Citizen writes: “So much for your Socialist Utopian ideas, which DO NOT work anywhere in the REAL WORLD.”
The point is they do work in both foreign countries where I have lived: Norway and Australia. I know they work, because I have experienced it first hand. But I offered my view for how Ron Paul can win the nomination and the election. If he would embrace collectivism where it works, he would win easily by attracting progressives, the people you call socialists. If he stays on his present course, he won’t win. If you can accept that, don’t change.
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@Martin Smith
Martin, I appreciate your views on collectivism.
America does have a Socialist Collective system which is broken beyond repair.
Why bother voting for Ron Paul, according to your political persuasion, you might as well promote Obama’s 2nd Term.
He’s the consomate “collective redistributor” and why not let him take us all the way to the Utopian world he advocates.
We now have Obamacare, but NO money to pay for it…. Any suggestions ?
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@Citizen Citizen writes: “Why bother voting for Ron Paul, according to your political persuasion, you might as well promote Obama’s 2nd Term.”
I would vote for him because I believe he would do what he says he would do. He is a man of integrity unlike all the others. But his libertarian philosophy of individualism is incomplete. Collectivism works, and I think that as a doctor, he must know that it works, because he must have observed the success of universal, single-payer health care systems in countries like Norway and Australia. Collectivism and individualism are compatible systems. They are complementary.
He simply won’t be elected unless he appeals to both progressives and conservatives. I mean real progressives and conservatives, not fundamentalists from either side.
You don’t have to pay for ObamaCare. The insurance companies have to pay for it, and they just charge the consumers.
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@Martin Smith
YOU SAY:
“You don’t have to pay for ObamaCare. The insurance companies have to pay for it, and they just charge the consumers”
Dear Martin, thats fundamentally naive, the numbers don’t work. Just look at the FED Res. published soaring US debt numbers. We’ve run up $5 Trillion in just 3 years from $9 T to $15 T… Our debt will double that in just 10 years, and double again by 2031 to $45 Trillion.
That’s FOUR time our GDP.
THAT’S WITHOUT Obama Care…. added in!!!
History confirms that NO country has ever survived more that 2x its GDP…. WE are destined to collapse
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@Citizen Citizen writes: “Dear Martin, thats fundamentally naive, the numbers don’t work.”
Yes, there is an increase due to the people who can’t afford to buy insurance, but that amount is trivial compared to the savings that will accrue beginning today, when insurance providers are required by law (ObamaCare) to spend 80% of all funds they collect on actual health care for customers. It means universal, single-payer health care is coming. That’s another reason Ron Paul should embrace collectivism. It’s about to happen in health care anyway. He could be seen to be ahead of the wave, and he would get elected.
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@Martin Smith
Dear Martin,
May I suggest some basic “risk managerment” economics. “Private Insurance” companies have a duty to provide a RETURN on shareholder investments. Not doing so, destroys capital resources that MUST be replaced in order to provide working capital for future generations benefits.
Socialism, ignores future capital needs, thus they believe selling services at “costs” is a “humanitarian” thing.
***But that’s an Ignorant Idea.***
Similar to eating your spring planting seed because your a glutton this winter. Ask the Russian peasants during Stalin’s iron rule, 4 million death later, they were still starving to death.
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@Martin Smith@Citizen
Anything you say in favor of the Norwegian system and how it works argues FOR Ron Paul’s vision. He would leave most of these matters to the states, and Norway is the size of an average American state.
But all this is beside the point. Even if you could prove that collectivism works brilliantly, stealing is still wrong and violence is still wrong. If you and a bunch of other people like doing things as part of a collective, no one is stopping you. Collectivize to your heart’s content and go with my blessing. Just don’t hold a gun to my head and demand that I join your collective. People tend to resent that sort of thing.
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@We’re in VT too@Martin Smith
That’s a true statement!
“Collectize to your hearts content”
But Collectivists are very COERSIVE too.
They ignore the fast failures and insist that YOUR money is better spent on THEIR schemes, that invariably fail miserably… Solyndra!
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@We’re in VT too@Citizen ” Even if you could prove that collectivism works brilliantly, stealing is still wrong…”
That’s why Paul won’t win. What most people call pragmatic humanism, too many of Ron Paul’s followers call stealing. You have painted yourselves into a corner where all of you are antisocial, because you really don’t believe in democracy. You are why Paul can’t win.
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@Citizen “May I suggest some basic “risk managerment” economics. “Private Insurance” companies have a duty to provide a RETURN on shareholder investments. Not doing so, destroys capital resources that MUST be replaced in order to provide working capital for future generations benefits.”
That is self-contradictory. Private insurance companies pay part of the insurance premiums they collect to shareholders instead of using the money to provide health care for customers. The shareholders don’t pay anything into the insurance company. The insurance company receives nothing at all from the shareholders. The IPO was long, long ago. The present shareholders paid nothing to the insurance company. The policy holders pay everything to the insurance company and you are saying that the people who actually pay the money shouldn’t receive all the benefits they need, and that shareholders who paid nothing into the insurance company should receive some of the policy holders premium payments. That’s your idea of risk.
That doesn’t happen in a universal, single-payer system, because there are no shareholders. there are only the people who contribute to the collectivist pool. You are welcome to read up on how public health care is paid for in Norway and Australia. The two systems are quite difference from the US and from each other. Both system provide the same high quality of health care the the US system provides, but unlike the US system, both Norway and Australia provide that high quality health care to all citizens, and even me, and they provide that high quality health care at a much lower cost per person.
That speaks for itself.
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@Martin Smith
Absent growth, even an Insurance company will go bankrupt.
“The IPO was long, long ago. The present shareholders paid nothing to the insurance company.”
Shareholders, past and present, infuse vital working capital to build services that Private Insurance companies provide to the insured group.
What you clearly don’t understand, is that insurance premiums alone DO NOT pay for services provided to the Insured. Insurance companies invest their revenues in other markets for returns to supplement the premiums, Competition among the insurance companies keeps costs and premiums low. Absent competition the premiums go high as they are now
The STATES have deliberately prevented interstate competition to keep insurance premiums low for state employees but high for the private sectors in the state
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@beatrixkiddo@Martin Smith The US has proven that it can not operate even a windfall business in which the demand is higher than the supply. The product is also the most popular human activity for spare time.
The US at one time took over “The Mustang Ranch” in Nevada. They could not produce a profit. If they cannot run a whore house successfully, then why would anyone trust hem with things such as Quality Health Care. They are proving how inadequate they are at operating anything within a budget every day congress gets together.
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Why are you so hung up on ‘collectivism?’ I don’t quite understand what need you are trying to satisfy at the moment.
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At least it was refreshing to see people get close to the same amount of time. Poll: Who won the Huckabee GOP Presidential Forum? Vote: http://shar.es/owDyM
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ONE FUNDAMENTAL TRUTH….
Ron Paul has advocated the return to Constitutional Money… gold and silver.
The single and biggest part of the Fiscal Control over Big Government
and Out of Control Spending… which is destroying America
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Neville,
I concur…. I’m heart broken too.
I was yelling 16 Amendment…. is the worst…
But he’s not at his best… the campaigne is taking its toll….
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@Citizen Unfortunately I think this campaign too is tiring him out, which can hurt him. I really hope people don’t start with the age thing, Paul is still by far the leading most qualified guy for the job. With him missing the next couple debates hopefully he can get his message stronger together which I think he needs to do before the debates are over.
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@beatrixkiddo
Ron’s campaigne managers are very savy people… but they’ve not groomed RP’s message.
It’s all about the “sound bytes” that drive the points home.
He knows his stuff well, his delivery needs work!
RP needs COACHING!
Ronald Reagan was always well scripted and he stayed on point. RP needs some help with his message. There are a boat load of great political archtects / coaches, Karl Rove comes to mind
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Mit Romney is still wishy washy, too slick and marginally convincing, He COULD give BHO a real challenge if only he learns to hang tough on the issues… be a Conservative Mit… it won’t hurt
Newt is a camelion, a policy wonk, not a President He’s too ready to appease both sides and maintain the Status Quo. Not a Reformer.
Perry, was surprisingly tough on the 10th Amendment, convincing and means what he says? He isn’t a great debater but he impressed the AG’s with is tough stance on State’s Rights…A reformer and return to Limited Government
Bachman, good answers but missed the 10th Amendment question even after being given two chances. She’s a good VP choice but not likely to become the nominee, not enough “graitas” or support.
Santorim is a smart guy but not polished enough for prime time. He’s too busy trying to sell his past record which is fading in peoples memories with no other accomplishments.
Paul, my political favorite, but he’s not being coached and he gets too wordly and confuses his message of smaller government and fiscal restraint. He knows his stuff, his DELIVERY isn’t selling working.
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I’m a long time Ron Paul supporter…. BUT sadly, I agree with your statements.
Dr Paul rambled and wasn’t concise in his responses to the questions.
“Well…you know…” is a common RP response lately and does not play well on a debate forum.
I’m concerned about his metal health, at 76 years of age, he is well past his prime.
NEVER THE LESS…
Dr Ron Paul IS an exceptional statesman and stands above the crowd
God Bless Ron Paul
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Ron Paul dominated. Well Done! Saving up to give $500 on Dec. 19th.
Does anyone else notice Romney’s goal is always to say nothing. What do you think about X “Well some yes, some no, but I’ll look at each in detain”. Etc.
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Great Job Ron Paul. Thank you for defending Liberty.
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