Protect All Human Life




The heated debate about abortion is filled with emotional arguments that usually center on considerations such as sexual morality, religious beliefs, women’s rights, or purely on pragmatic reasons: if abortion were made illegal it would still take place – under unsanitary conditions that would endanger additional lives.

However, a rational evaluation of abortion must be built upon one single question: When exactly does human life begin? At conception, at birth or somewhere in between?

Not even the most radical feminist would find it okay to tear apart a recently-born baby just because it is not wanted by its mother. All other considerations aside, the only reason many individuals can support abortion with a good conscience is because they believe it’s not murder… and that unborn babies do not count as human beings.

Ron Paul has delivered more than 4,000 babies. He believes that human life starts at conception, and that casual elimination of the unborn leads to a careless attitude towards all life.

Recalling his personal observation of a late-term abortion performed by one of his instructors during his medical residency, Ron Paul stated, “It was pretty dramatic for me to see a two-and-a-half-pound baby taken out crying and breathing and put in a bucket.”

In an Oct. 27, 1999 speech to Congress, Ron Paul said:

“I am strongly pro-life. I think one of the most disastrous rulings of this century was Roe versus Wade. I do believe in the slippery slope theory. I believe that if people are careless and casual about life at the beginning of life, we will be careless and casual about life at the end. Abortion leads to euthanasia. I believe that.”

During a May 15, 2007, appearance on the Fox News talk show Hannity and Colmes, Ron Paul argued that his pro-life position was consistent with his libertarian values, asking, “If you can’t protect life then how can you protect liberty?” Additionally, Ron Paul said that since he believes libertarians support non-aggression, libertarians should oppose abortion because abortion is “an act of aggression” against a fetus.

At the GOP Values Voter Presidential Debate on Sep 17, 2007, Ron Paul was asked what he will do to restore legal protection to the unborn:

“As an O.B. doctor of thirty years, and having delivered 4,000 babies, I can assure you life begins at conception. I am legally responsible for the unborn, no matter what I do, so there’s a legal life there. The unborn has inheritance rights, and if there’s an injury or a killing, there is a legal entity. There is no doubt about it.”

At the GOP YouTube debate in St. Petersburg, Florida, on Nov 28, 2007, Ron Paul was asked what a woman would be charged with if abortion becomes illegal and she obtains an abortion anyway:

“The first thing we have to do is get the federal government out of it. We don’t need a federal abortion police. That’s the last thing that we need. There has to be a criminal penalty for the person that’s committing that crime. And I think that is the abortionist. As for the punishment, I don’t think that should be up to the president to decide.”

For many years, Ron Paul has been speaking up for babies’ rights. He passionately defends those who cannot speak for themselves because they haven’t been born yet.

In order to “offset the effects of Roe v. Wade”, Paul voted in favor of the federal Partial-Birth Abortion Ban Act of 2003. He has described partial birth abortion as a “barbaric procedure”.

At the same time, Ron Paul believes that the ninth and tenth amendments to the U.S. Constitution do not grant the federal government any authority to legalize or ban abortion. Instead, it is up to the individual states to prohibit abortion.

Many people feel very strongly about the issue of abortion, and once they make up their minds they rarely change their opinion. If you are undecided and/or open-minded, check out this page and this site for more information about abortion, including images and a description of medical procedures.



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8,341 Comments:

  1. Dr. Paul probably won't run on a third party ticket as in doing so will surely split the republican vote, almost insuring Obama a second term, I choase the heading "Demsprtr" as I have been a registered Democrat and am now a supporter for Ron Paul in this campaign. I voted for Obama because of his words about change in government. He has proven to be as inexperienced as an inturn heart surgen and we now need intervention of a pro. If Ron Paul can't do this then we will bury this republic. I almost never vote a streight ticket but have been so disapointed with the political arena I feel betrayed at every turn lately. Evidently Ron Paul has been rock solid for three decades. Unlike Obama who seemed to come out of nowhere with a slick Willie tongue. Obama must have spent some time in the status quo chamber being water boarded or brain washed to have changed his view on what the people wanted. He must have been offered an amazing position of power by the 1% or he just flat out lied about his agenda. I don't beleve Dr. Paul is a main stream status quo type of person and for this reason his life is now at great risk.

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    • @Demsprtr I think that Obama made an honest effort to change things in our country that he thought would make it a better place. I don't view him as someone who deliberately tried to destroy our values or economy. No president can possibly be a cure all for the country. I do admire Obama for trying to get things moving when Congress would not budge. However, I don't think 4 more years of his administration is going to help our economy. At another time in history he might be the perfect president - just not in this time. I try not to insult people or defame their character if they don't please me as a citizen. I know I'm no expert on what would be best for our country and it takes a lot of people to figure that out. Sometimes it seems like a revolution is needed to get things broken down far enough to make them right. That's going to require a big change and a candidate who gets my vote will have to show a good deal of evidence that they are going to do just that.

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  2. Ron Paul forgot to mention the circumstances where pregnancy was caused by mistake or perhaps by rape. Should the woman bearing this child in it's extreme infancy "not" be allowed to have it aborted. I say "it" cause that's what it is. Abortion is a woman's right no matter how gruesome the circumstances. People need to stop with the fantasy of what God and religion are and get real. Yes at a certain point perhaps 6 months into pregnancy abortion should not be allowed. By this time a woman has had plenty of time to decide her fate but for the first 1-3 months there should be no issue on a woman's right to abortion. What if her life is at stake by maintaining the pregnancy? What if she is unemployed,homeless,etc. Please dont tell me there are plenty of willing adopters out there. That's horseshit. This is where I have to weigh whether Ron Paul is the guy because I believe in his other policies especially foreign. Whatever the outcome I wish Paul luck. I have not made up my mind except Obama must go.

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    • @botenemy This is my final comment on this topic. It just happens to be attached to yours. It comes down to those who don't want abortions should not get them and let everyone else make her own choice. Remember if God has anything to do with it he will definitely deal with the person's choice at a later time, right? I would think that God is better positioned and equipped to deal with the situation than a bunch of "well meaning" human beings. It is not the job of the religious or anyone else to interfere with anyone else's personal decisions about what impacts them specifically. Take care of yourselves, your own lives, your own children and families - this will make the world a better place. I understand that their are extreme religions that chase after others trying to force them to comply with their dogma - I do not understand christianity to be one of these. Help those you can, provide support and assistance to those who request it and continue to live as peaceful as possible. Problems will be taken care of by God in the end. Government has no business interfering with this issue (if they are given the authority to decide on this issue they will decide on other issues impeding its citizens from acting responsibly on their own. If you don't support separation of church and state you never know what you may end up being forced to do or rights you may have taken away. In protection of our rights in this country we must keep the government focused on protecting our basic rights and not meddling into our personal lives.

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      • @Public Postings@botenemy Classic example of this is how Protestants were killed by Queen Mary of England. Burned to death for not being Catholic.....that is all it took to lose your life.

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        • @djt@botenemy Yes and a prime example of why we should never ever let government or leaders interfere with our liberties. No religions should suffer from persecution neither should atheists nor humanists or any other group. I don't like a number of them personally but I leave them alone to pursue their beliefs because I value the freedom we have to choose and believe what we want to. If children are indoctrinated into a set of beliefs they need only look into alternatives as adults if they so choose (or not).

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        • @djt@Public Postings@botenemy BOTENEMY, sorry, but you don't really make sense. I guess this is an anti-choice statement? I personally, would not have an abortion if I got pregnant, but I want every other woman to have that choice for herself. Whatever God or Goddess (most likely God for you) you believe in, you'd have to be the most dimwitted moron to not look around and see that we were intended to have FREE WILL. Your will imposed on another is not free will. And for you to think you have the right to judge others for using their free will on their own bodies, in their own lives, is kind of a superiority issue, I mean, feeling you have the right to decide for them where even God is not?

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  3. This site is meant for discussion as there are comment sections under all topics.

    What I have learned here is something I did not know before, and that is that my right as a woman to protect my health, future health and actual life are at risk of being taken away. I've learned that there are those that fight for laws that would allow me to die over the potential of a fetus. This is real and not hypothetical for me personally. As one poster said, the pro-life attitude provides more compassion for a pregnant dog. I've learned that it would even be worse than before Roe vs. Wade if it is overturned. It must be overturned in order for it to no longer be a federal issue. Therefore, in my opinion this should NEVER become a state issue alone. Any person concerned with this issue needs to understand how important Roe vs Wade really is to us.

    I think it is time for anyone that is pro-choice to look at what has already happened around the country on this issue. It needs to be realized that it is necessary to take a stand just as strongly as the pro-life side has done. As pro-choice, many of us have been minding our own business but the pro-life stance has been EXTREMELY busy on minding our business too. It's time we make THIS our business. Inform yourself and inform your friends. Ask them to tell their friends. Protect a woman's right to choose.

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  4. I ask any on this site to be aware of the, poison pen, take most with a grain of salt. This site is here to give you a chance to understand what Dr. Ron Paul's views are concerning abortion. It will be very hard for him to flip flop in lite of this site. I don't think this site was ment to be used as a platform for the "yeng & yang" of the abortion issue. What this site does for me is that it tells me what I can expect from Dr. Paul and I don't beleve he will flip on the subject. If I see ten things that I like about a candidate and one or two that I disslike it's gonna be a no brainer about my choice. I mention the poison pen to draw attention to the possiblity of some entity, insergent if you will, distorting the intended meaning of this site. I apoligize for being so sinicle on this point but I have been drawn from the meaning of the site into a meaningless debate. I can go to almost any blog on the internet at any time to argue this subject if I so desire. I use my time here to support Dr. Paul and refuse to be drawn into a debate on this site any longer. If this is the only reason that you won't vote for Ron Paul then mabey a flip floper is the one for you. My vote so far will be for Dr. Ron Paul, unless I see him flip flop on enough issues.

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    • @Demsprtr I am quite frankly ticked off with his stance on the Issue, its an important enough issue for me that I won't vote for him over it. I am hoping since hes is running repub they will run a third party worthy of my vote. Actually he would have been the first time I voted major party, but I wont vote for him at all now, Ill stick third party, if I can't make a vote count I can tell the main parties I am disgusted enough I wont vote these fuckers, guess I can be happy maintaining my strange voting habits. Pardon I am posting drunk off my arse so this is hard to read.

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  5. To Vampyreshadow ; May I suggest that perhaps you seek the help of a higher power to deal with your tendency to terminate your exhistance on this planet. What I am going to say to you may cause me to max the charicture limit of this site so I may need to post an extension to this one.

    A higher power to you may be another mortal being, that statistics show that the success of those beings equals that of time to heal. It may be just as as qualifying if , in spite of your current belief, you were to go to a House of God. Many go there to seek answers for thairselves only to be given the chance to look at ones innerself, often a place of quiet and solitude. You go there just to heal yourself. This I beleve is much more apealing to Christ then to go to God and ask him to heal you, as healing yourself will be much more satisfying to Him and you. These places are there for you to use. What do you have to loose.

    My next post will be directed at you but I am serious about this post if you are offended by my next.

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    • @Demsprtr I was raised Christian, if you haven't read, it has nothing to do with my atheism that makes me depressed at the moment either. its my current life. actually before shit hit the fan, I was pretty damn cheerful. Most people called me Little Mrs Sunshine, which is why I got snapped out of my funk, told my friends I was down, and yet again, they help me more then Church ever has. As a matter of fact, the closest I ever got to Suicide was thinking their was a god not listening to my prayers.You try being the 11 year old getting raped nightly thinking theres a god not saving you. I still have the scars from the suicide attempt from that.

      And my tendancy? LMAO, I have gotten depressed but I haven't killed myself, hence my ability to type here. How bout this, you keep your god, and Ill keep my friends :P

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    • @Demsprtr I honestly prefer acting when something is troubling me, then talking to an imaginary friend who never answers. Attributing all good and bad in my life to either "the lord works in mysterious ways" when I suffered, or god is blessing me. I never took comfort in this. Its not comforting to think god is putting you through hell as punishment or to test your faith, god seems like a monster in that. So I get bummed I don't go to the church, that gives me empty pointless answers, I go to friends who offer advice and genuine help..

      I hate to say it..... Well actually no.... I don't I love quoting

      "History does not record anywhere at any time a religion that has any rational basis. Religion is a crutch for people not strong enough to stand up to the unknown without help. But like dandruff, most people do have a religion and spend time and money on it and seem to derive considerable pleasure from fiddling with it." - Robert Heinlein

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  6. bledi89 said:

    @Ace81@brensgrrl Since the mother has all the power, she should have all the responsibility. A man who impregnates a woman who will not get an abortion despite his unwillingness to take care of the child or his not being ready to do so, should be able to legally remove himself from the life of said child. I agree that women should have all the power in this instance, but with power comes responsibility. If a woman can get out of taking care of a child, so too should a man. Our society is extremely unfair to men in this way. (Sorry for some reason I can't get to the actual post, so I copied and pasted from my email) I agree, if a mother has all the rights and abortion is legal, then the father should be able to decide to wash his hands of the situation if he so chooses. But, there has to be guidelines too, he has to sign over his parental rights. I also believe that parents who aren't married should get 50/50 custody, unless one decides they don't want it or unless one or both are proven to be unfit. The child support system is bias and invasive. I'm sorry, but I'd rather pay to feed and house the poor, than to mediate issues arriving from one night stands or lousy relationships.

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    • @Ace81@brensgrrl I agree with most of your post but disagree on custody, I think shared Custody should be ok even in cases of the nonmarried, I adore my dad, he was the sanity in my life and still is, my mom not so much, but I benifitted in knowing both of them. more time spent with each parent if each parent is willing serves the best interest of the child.

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  7. thepeopleselbow,

    I concur with your assessment about the attitude toward pregnant women.

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  8. Roe vs. Wade Future generations loose to ALL told that it is O.K.

    Human species have been out of sink with the natueral order of things for so long that the word human has lost the intent of the meaning. I believe this. I am truly thankful that my mother wanted to keep me and was able to do so. I have had a good life and sadened that so many never got the chance to do the same. I'm sad that so many will still not ever have that chance. I am just sick about what we have become and I am sorry that you are forced to go against the natueral order, of life, whatever it seems it should be. I think the natueral order is what may be the word of my God or the word of any god, that once you turn your back in it we become not who we are claiming to be. Choose to beleve in evolution or in your creation by God in his image. You can't have it both ways. I know what my choice is, and can go to church, if I choose to, without being seen as a hypocrite in the eyes of my God. I for one am good with that.

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    • @Demsprtr You had a good life countless of others haven't we have people, like me, who are borderline suicidal due to all the shit we have gone through. I have seen the suffering of this life, I am sorry having seen and lived through the suffering of this life I don't buy into your god. Where was god when that woman spent the majority of her childhood and adulthood being raped by her father locked in a basement, Where is god when a child is born in a third world country in poverty and starvation, where is this god when children die slowly of cancer, this is nature this isn't god.

      Nature is more brutal, I live in it, watch cats toy with a mouse before tearing it to shreds that is life. if a kits are touched by human kind, some rabbits will eat their kits, cats if in stress self abort, mice if put in with a strange male will also abort. Remove your rose colored glasses, this is the real world.

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    • @Demsprtr Natural order? As human beings we have defied natural order. Do you know how many of us are alive today because we defy nature with modern medicine? Just to stick with women and childbirth or Uhhhmmm...."persons and the host wombs".....Do you know how many mothers and babies would have died without c-sections? This alone has changed our bodies as humans drastically. We no longer live in a world that plays out under survival of the fittest. Women's pelvic bones are narrower than in all of history just from the technology of this ONE medical procedure. Incidentally, I was reading today about a woman that was going to be able to save her unborn child by giving it her bone marrow. This is both miraculous and amazing but if prolifers have it their way, would women be forced to do any and all medical procedures regardless of the danger to her own life in the future?

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  9. Another question, how can you grant the 14th amendment rights to one, and deny it to the other, since you are depriving a woman of an essential liberty personal autonomy (Sorry can't edict, don't feel like deleting and rewriting my previous post)

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  10. Btw, question for all those who keep bringing up the 14th amendment

    Thirteenth Amendment to the US Constitution is the "enslavement" of criminals: "Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction."

    Since forcing someone to use their body to host another is Slavery, are we criminalizing sex?

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  11. snorlax this is a very bad assumption, life or not is not part of it , You can not give one person rights to use another persons body without the person in questions consent, this denies a basic liberty, the right of autonomy

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  12. To djt

    The fourtheenth amendment protects born persons but does not negate the intention of the first sentence of the original document. It appears as though this takes away the states right to allow abortion within its boarders. Cession from the union could give the state that ability. I am mostley speaking for the protection of deemed healthy, no threat to health or life of the mother, unborn posterity.

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    • @Demsprtr Fourteenth amendment doesn't strip another human of their right to Autonomy over her own body, we have all sorts of laws that allow for the removal of another human from your property, the most valuable and personal property we own is ourselves.....

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  13. DarrelRoss

    Personhood is the coathanger used by the court to abort the the life of the intended meaning of the first sentence in refercnce to the nations posterity. The right of one born to deny the RIGHT of one UNBORN that is totaly defenceless without intervention.

    Can you see me as being a monster for trying to save a child from a burning building? Can you see me as a monster for trying to save a pregnant woman from that same fire even though I know she intends to abort her unborn? I could not save the children or mothers at Waco Tx. but I can support a president that would not likely allow such a thing to happen again. Are you reading something in my post that I did not typy as I don't see where I said it was ARE tnrn. Twisting words is what the courts do quite well.

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    • @Demsprtr You are forgetting we have the right as citizens to even use lethal force in defense of ourselves, all pregnancy comes with risk, placental previa, etc, even if abortion is killing, its a gamble that the fetus wont hurt us, thus its self defense. (Given that labor is always painful, it is always self defense)

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    • @Demsprtr How much less likely do you really think woman would be to NOT seek out abortions if it became illegal? We don't have the stats on how many woman obtained them prior to Roe vs Wade, but what we do know is that a lot of women died do to unsafe, back alley abortions. We do have current studies of countries where abortion is illegal and the numbers are as high as this country. I would like to bring up all the little "nuances" that prolifers have fought for that a woman must go through in various states as in. parental, spousal, or father agreement. Most of these tactics do not prevent abortion but put a woman at a place in pregnancy that the fetus IS more developed.

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  14. Personhood at conception is a religious belief, not a provable biological fact. Mormon and some Fundamentalist churches believe in personhood at conception; Judaism holds that it begins at birth and abortion is not murder; ensoulment theories vary widely within Protestantism. The religious community will never reach consensus on the definition of a “person” or when abortion is morally justified.

    Pro-choice does not mean pro-abortion, as if abortion is favorable to childbirth. It supporting reproductive freedom, which means the woman should be able to make the choice.

    I am curious to know if pro-life supporters are involved in charitable work to emotionally support pregnant mothers, helping teens and doing grocery shopping for the bed-ridden or if they participate in volunteer work for adoption, etc.?

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    • @djt Actually many of the pro life groups push coerced shot gun adoptions in exchange for help. this is a fact, I actually did not really want an abortion, but I think this whole push for profit baby mill is crap, I would rather abort then deal with this sort of shady coercion.

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      • @vampyreshadow Can you share more about this?

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        • @djt Hah with my pregnancy all I got offered was help If I signed an agreement to place with the agency for adoption when it was born., actually they encourage you and harass you to sign this agreement that you will. I have still been getting calls back on this, and got called a murder and accused of miscarrying intentionally when I told um I had a miscarriage, so I went to research, here is a sight that gives birth mothers experiences.

          My problem isn't with parenting, I also support adoption, but I doubt I could carry to term and do that. But Coerced adoption is what happens in the states, and abroad and this is wrong.

          http://www.eclectica.org/v6n3/delbalzo.html http://www.exiledmothers.com/adoption_facts/adoption_coercion.html

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        • @djt Forgot to add :P The whole intentional miscarriage is just silly, I had both the means and the money to get my abortion done, and access to the top rated abortion clinic and doctor in the country (boggled my mind that he existed in my state in the smaller of our two cities) I am also not paranoid of confronting the insane protesters even in my upset state, I am kind of odd, I can be depressed, upset, etc, and still maintain a smile :P

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        • @vampyreshadow Pretty horrible stuff on those sites! I wonder how many women would be investigated that had miscarriages if Roe vs Wade was overturned? Talk about piling abuse on top of an already difficult situation you were in.

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        • @djt Hah they have already had one state do this, Utah, its made a big stink about it, they made abortion virtually impossible to obtain in Utah, most people just cross the border, one woman hired a guy to beat her up to cause a miscarriage thus, the state outlawed miscarriage, oh turns out Kentucky is doing it to :P

          http://civilliberty.about.com/b/2010/03/04/utah-kentucky-to-ban-miscarriages.htm both places have done so based on them making it damn near impossible to obtain an abortion and people have been going to extreme measures or leaving state to abort.

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          • ok that's f-ing insane. You can't just outlaw something that happens in nature. Sometime a body just can't hang.
            Quick question, If there are twins and 1 miscarries and the other goes full term healthy and happy is the baby still removed from the mother because of the miscarry(considering the illegality of it)? That would be a perfect example of what happens when dee dee dee's get voted in to office.

            (to explain dee dee dee look up Carlos Mencia on you tube.)

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        • @djt Sorry bout the weird post, I am again being lazy went to look up the Utah Article because being one of the states Utah residents jump the border (when they can afford sane methods) to, to obtain an abortion, so I had heard of their ban. I don't live anywhere near Kentucky, so I hadn't heard of that one yet. And weren't we just asked why us Pro choice people were being so loud, I hadn't realized another state had got to that point. Roe vs Wade is dying time to make more noise. Before we end up like Latin America where people are dying for abortions (literally)

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        • @djt If anyone is curious what sparked this bill heres a discussion of the case, honestly think they are neglecting to mention the strict parental consent and those nutty damn mormons we got in Utah (Well Utah is pretty well Anti Choice) which is allot to blame for these back ally issues we have seen with teens lately.

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        • @djt If anyone is curious what sparked this bill heres a discussion of the case, honestly think they are neglecting to mention the strict parental consent and those nutty damn mormons we got in Utah (Well Utah is pretty well Anti Choice) which is allot to blame for these back ally issues we have seen with teens lately.http://abcnews.go.com/Health/utah-abortion-bill-punishing-miscarri

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  15. Why are you pro-choice people even still arguing? Do you have a guilty concience or something? Kripes you have had it your way for so long the real damage has been done. Fifty million plus and many, many of them perfectly healthy, nonthreating American citizens. What part of the word do you not understand. "POSTERITY." Protected in the U.S. CONSTITUTION in the very first SENTENCE. Read the damned sentence. You have had your way and it has been prooven time and time again that certain people will dismantel the Constitution with the intent to deem it a useless document. The Patriot Act and the NDAA are just two of the latest acts of terrosim on the American people in recent times. Terroising the unborn was a early act, but yuo have had it your way. The task at hand is to get Dr. Ron Paul nominated then elected continue the argument later. Much more at stake now.

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    • @Demsprtr

      I found the first bit of your argument entertaining. Is that entitlement I hear? We have had it our way for a long time and now it's your turn? LOL

      Currently, without personhood laws on the books, fetuses do not count as American Citizens. So your argument about the posterity holds no water.

      As for terrorism, is it not state-sanctioned terrorism to control women's bodies? Do you also think the state should force people to provide organ transplants?

      Dr. Paul's stance on abortion makes no sense. He claims to support individual liberties but he only means if you are not a pregnant woman. If you get pregnant, you belong to the state. Good luck with that one.

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    • @Demsprtr I still argue because I still have to deal with folks like you, who would force woman to become life support machines for fetuses. I value personal autonomy highly. No greater thing then Owning yourself, having the state tell me or any other woman that they have to spend 9 months pregnant violates something I hold very valuable, the basic Autonomy over ones own body.

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  16. @slmccoyx Just curious, in your mind does this mean if I die from carrying a child or giving birth can, my children before it's birth fight for charges of manslaughter to be brought against said newborn?

    I'm not sure you are correct on the Libertarian point because the adult woman rights would be pushed aside in favor of the fetus. That is not Libertarian.

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    • I asked the question based purely on your belief, not mine. The fetus has no control? Based on what you say it appears the fetus as all the control.

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    • Both an egg or sperm are 'live' before fertilization. Fertilization of the egg creates the potential for a human life. From there people are all over the board as to what constitutes when it is considered a "human being". This is why I think it is wasteful to debate this point. I have already stated my opinion numerous times so take a look around. I am pro-choice but would only have an abortion for myself to protect my own life and health (that is explained here as well). I see that is a mute point with pro-life people and am really not interested in anymore insulting arguments on it. I imagine as extreme as people are they would refuse a women to terminate an ectopic pregnancy which would kill both the fetus and mother because that fetus is JUST as much a living being according to a pro-lifer as any fetus and should have no less rights.

      I knew a young woman that was told her baby had no brain and that it would never live outside the womb. The doctor's suggested she terminate her pregnancy early on but a pro-life, right wing evangelical extremist got ahold of her and convinced her to carry the pregnancy full term. But, she was to pray EVERYDAY for God to grow a brain for her baby and God would do it! What???? Her baby was born with no brain and lived for 2 days. The young woman had a mental breakdown.

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  17. What Presidential Candidates That Are Pro-life Want

    "Conservative presidential candidates say that they will work to appoint justices who will overturn Roe v. Wade. Other candidates say that they will not. Nobody in any real position of political power is talking about a federal constitutional amendment banning abortion, or anything of that nature, anymore. It's all about Roe."

    What Happens if Roe vs. Wade is Overturned?

    " Within the first 60 days, trigger bans take effect. Numerous states have abortion bans already on the books that could take effect automatically within 45 to 60 days, based only on the attorney general's finding that Roe v. Wade has been overturned. All of these states would immediately close down any and all abortion clinics."

    "Within the first two years, abortion is illegal in more than half of the country.Legislatures in socially conservative states that have not already banned abortion would do so. After banning abortion, these states would aim to write abortion bans into their constitutions by referendum in an effort by legislators to draw socially conservative voters to the polls. In socially conservative states, from South Carolina in the east to Kansas in the west, abortion would be easily banned. In socially progressive states, such as California and most of New England, it would remain legal. Closely divided states, such as North Carolina and Ohio, would be political battlegrounds as the question of whether or not to ban abortion would become the defining issue of the legislative year--every legislative year."

    What Would it Take to Overturn Roe vs. Wade?

    "Two or three key justices retire and are easily replaced by justices of the Scalia-Thomas mold."

    http://civilliberty.about.com/od/abortion/qt/roe_wade_whatif.htm

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    • In Roe vs Wade, the Supreme Court determined that a woman's right is protected by both the Ninth and Fourteenth Amendment. If overturned that is all gone. Our rights are lost.

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  18. This is why I do not understand Paul's stand on abortion, which differs from that of other libertarians. A libertarian would see the "inalienable rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" as a package. Individuals have the right to use force, even lethal force, to counter others who are raping or trying to rape them, who physically assault them first when they are in the event of physical assault, who invade their homes (which are far less important than their bodies). Consent to sex is not consent to pregnancy as consent to vaginal sex is not consent to anal sex. Now, however, Paul has basically said he would support state laws against abortion in even cases of rape. Pregnancy to which you did not consent is slavery: your body works for the embryo/fetus against your will 24 hours a day for 9 months, and at the end you can die of medically unforeseeable complications in childbirth. That is totally not litertarian.

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  19. " Real libertarians take individual rights seriously - seriously enough to consistently uphold them against the initiation of the use of force by anyone (including government) for any reason. This means that government must be bound by the policy of "laissez faire" - which means that government has no business coercively interfering with the lives of peaceful (non-coercive) citizens in their private affairs and voluntary (market) relationships.

    Libertarians may or may not approve of some of the things that some people may do in private or in voluntary relations, but whatever their own code of personal moral conduct is, they do not seek to ban any private or voluntary activities by the use of force, including the force of government action. To do so would be to violate the very principle of individual rights of person and property, and thereby undercut any rational argument in favor of freedom...."

    http://laissez-fairerepublic.com/LIBERTAR.htm

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    • @djt I agree.

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    • @djt Good link. What is the libertarian view on the punishment of crime or the definition of what a crime is and how it should be handled?

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    • @djt I couldn't find the comment you made that I wanted to respond to but you said something about whenever the president changes the laws regarding abortion might change if not for Roe vs, Wade. I agree. Again, everyone is entitle to his or her own beliefs, values, etc. You cannot defend individual freedom by applying the rules and laws of the "majority" or one authority figure. People need to get out of other people's business on personal issues of others that do not interfere with their ability to make their own choices. Abortion will always be an individually based issue and there is no reconciling the different viewpoints except to let the individual decide.

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      • @Public Postings I was planning on re-finding the information to re-post and will do that as it is pretty significant . The majority of the states that currently have legalized abortion would no longer remain intact - as in, there are state laws currently in place that have a "roll back" effect if Roe vs. Wade is overturned. So, this is the first in all the years I have followed Ron Paul that I have found him to be manipulative in his language about an issue as I know full well he knows these laws and what will happen. I'll be back later to re-post the information on these laws.

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        • @djt@Public Postings Here is a thesis on the issue

          http://www.walterblock.com/wp-content/uploads/publications/block_theory-guilt-punishment-crime-statism.pdf

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        • @djt@Public Postings heres a better one http://forum.theuklibertarian.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=300

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        • @vampyreshadow@Public Postings Thanks. Good info.

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        • @djt@Public Postings http://www.lewrockwell.com/rothbard/rothbard145.html heres an even better one :P

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        • @vampyreshadow@djt That was a good reading, thanks. I think for some "crimes" retribution is the best approach. Punishment is supposed to be immediate and related to the crime committed to be effective. This obviously would not work for all crimes but could move some crimes into the hands of the victims who would only by law be able to exact retribution to the extent that they were offended. Also, victim "forgiveness" or lightening of the punishment should be considered in any sentencing.

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  20. If anyone who is more familiar with Dr. Paul's Abortion Issue can correct me or verify what I've heard so far: In Summary: The Constitution provides right to life by all individuals and ensures liberty to all individuals. Therefore, he is pro life and anti abortion because we are protect the rights of ALL individuals, including unborn babies.

    Is that right?

    Therefore, the argument boils down to "when does life begin."

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    • gered, Generally speaking, originally Libertarians believed in the right of the individual but even this has come to vary within the party as you will see below. Where it has landed is in the argument of "when does life begins". I do not believe this can be proven at this time scientifically. Many have attempted to do so and I find both sides have an agenda to prove that THEY are RIGHT. Both sides are looking for the proof they want and when we look for evidence in this manner it is always clouded with inaccuracies. Therefore, I see this as something that all of us are basing on personal feelings, thoughts, intuition and belief systems. This furthers my own belief that it should remain a personal choice and freedom for all individuals - either way without interference by others.

      @gered

      @gered

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      • @gered sorry, for some reason this site deleted my copy and paste from wikepedia on Libertarianism and abortion.

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      • @djt

        The question of when life begins is irrelevant. It is only brought up by anti-choice people who want to get pro-choice folks stuck. There's really no way to argue that life does not begin at conception. However, arguing that a fetus is like a human being is like arguing that an acorn is an oak tree. But given that it is not really possible to determine, the anti-choicer gets to claim that abortion is murder and then decides the argument is over.

        The problem with this argument is it assumes that killing the fetus is wrong. I argue that killing the fetus is not wrong. Just like not giving a life-saving organ to someone because you choose not to give it to them, the mother choosing to kill her non-viable fetus is not wrong. It's her right to decide who gets to use her body just like it's your right to decide who gets to use your body.

        Aside from completing the right-to-life argument as I have done above, anti-choicers believe that new life is more important than everything else. It doesn't matter what else is brought up because they are blind to reason. They see it as murder and refuse to listen to reason so no matter how many valid points are brought up, they say "oh so you think murder is good?" and put on the ad hominem gloves. The level of reasoning most are capable of is too low to really conclude the argument.

        Besides the right-to-life bit, outlawing abortion is simply the wrong thing to do if you value life. The right thing to do is to reduce abortions. For the same reason people are too thick to understand the above argument, they cannot understand that reducing unwanted pregnancies would reduce abortion and would be a win-win for everyone.

        Sad really. Fortunately, judges tend to be pretty intelligent. It remains to be seen if the people of the USA can be duped into voting for personhood laws... lol what a joke those are. Impractical to the extreme, not thought out at all. But to the anti-choice zealot who cannot see reason, they need only froth at the mouth and rant about murder.

        *sigh*

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        • @DarrellRoss@djt yea, I always used the philosophy, "If there was no intervention, what would happen?" So, if without intervention a life would be created (pregnancy would complete to term), then any intervention would by definition, be murder.

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        • @DarrellRoss Yeah, I'm getting a quick lesson on the parroting that goes on with the pro-life stance. These people are very dogmatic and rehearsed in what they believe. It is as if talking to a robot that is programmed. One person told me he cared not of my personal "sentimental" story because he found it "clouded" his judgement.

          It seems people that have had abortions and not been able to come to terms with their decision are the most vicious in lashing out in anger at others, as if holding a rigid pure belief in no exceptions ever to have abortions, is cleansing their guilt and pain.

          So while they feel so passionate about the fetus, it seems a mask for hatred toward those that do not align or adhere to their beliefs.

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        • @gered@DarrellRoss Are you saying that birth control of any form is murder? May I ask if you are a man or a woman?

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        • @gered

          You are ignoring the impracticality of deeming abortion murder. There are a ton of reasons why it is impractical. If you cannot think of any, then you are blinded and unable to reason well enough to understand the pro-choice argument.

          At the very least, you should endeavor to *understand* the argument prior to dismissing it.

          I understand the murder argument. I agree that it is killing a living potential human being. This validates your argument that it is killing life. I go on to argue that it is not an unjust killing. I provide a comparison to being an organ donor (refuse to give up the organ and you kill someone but it is not unjust).

          Your silly technicality argument falls flat. You want to criminalize women due to a technical interpretation of "intervention"? Give me a break.

          Read my argument, understand it, and respond with a rebuttal.

          BTW, if you really want to read up on the whole argument, I suggest you read "A Defense of Abortion" by Judith Jarvis Thomson. She is VERY thorough - http://spot.colorado.edu/~heathwoo/Phil160,Fall02/thomson.htm

          If you cannot see the other side of the argument (women's rights, personal freedoms, sex education, sexual freedom, etc.) how can you possibly hope to offer a counter argument worth reading?

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        • @djt No, birthcontrol that prevents fertilization of an egg doesn't fall into that category. I am a man whose wife went through 8 years of fertility assistance. So, full disclosure, for a couple that struggle so hard for so long to conceive, it's hard for me personally to understand how this country has made it easy to discard unwanted pregancies. So, I will readily admit my bias and personal history weighs in on this issue. But, I do believe in individual freedoms. I do not believe we can legislate morality and I truly try to love all people despite political/philosophical leanings.

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        • @DarrellRoss To be clear on my perspective: I am a man who walked with his wife and learned as we went through 8 years of fertility assistance. So, full disclosure, for a couple that struggle so hard for so long to conceive, it's hard for me personally to understand how this country has made it easy to discard unwanted pregancies. So, I will readily admit my bias and personal history weighs in on this issue. But, I do believe in individual freedoms. I do not believe we can legislate morality and I truly try to love all people despite political/philosophical leanings. During that 8 years of talking with my own OB/GYN and Fertility Specialists, they both were clear that of all the Abortion Clinics in the U.S., they would be surprised of 1/2 of 1% of all cases of abortions fell into the categories you mentioned. Since I fail to live up to your keyboard warrior standards, I'll just politely bow out with my lack of understanding and my silly technicality, flat falling arguments. Congratulations, internet chat room slayer. You are again victorious! :)

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        • @gered

          It is interesting that you allow your infertility to bias you. Have you looked into adoption? I mean there are tons of kids in need of family? I ask because I am also infertile. My wife and I spent two years trying to conceive and then we learned I don't produce sperm. The first thing we ran into when we learned was people telling us we could adopt. Turns out it's effing expensive to adopt! Wtf is up with? Plus getting a baby is really hard. It's easier to adopt from a foreign country than it is locally. We worked with a fertility clinic and spent quite a hefty sum of money and she is now 10 weeks pregnant.

          I try not to bring up my personal story because I do not think it is relevant. My past experience should not bias the rationality of an argument. So I am telling you that my personal history does *NOT* bias me in this issue.

          Anecdotal evidence with specific examples is not useful. Sure, I'm infertile. Does that mean I want to force all women who conceive to carry to term? No it doesn't. They have a *right* to control their own bodies. They have a *right* to determine what is right for them. Only they know their situation best. Outlawing abortion would be a big mistake. Instead of focusing on reducing the number of abortions, pro-lifers want to eliminate choice. If they are so pro-life, they should put their money where their mouth is and pony up. Sex education, contraceptives for all, help reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies.

          Keep your bias viewpoint out of my wife's uterus.

          PS: Excellent attempt at painting yourself as the victim! Victim-status FTW! /sarcasm

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        • @DarrellRoss@gered

          DarrellRoss, Great piece here. I like this parrt below:

          And we should also notice that it is not at all plain that this argument really does go even as far as it purports to. For there are cases and cases, and the details make a difference. If the room is stuffy, and I therefore open a window to air it, and a burglar climbs in, it would be absurd to say, "Ah, now he can stay, she's given him a right to the use of her house--for she is partially responsible for his presence there, having voluntarily done what enabled him to get in, in full knowledge that there are such things as burglars, and that burglars burgle.'' It would be still more absurd to say this if I had had bars installed outside my windows, precisely to prevent burglars from getting in, and a burglar got in only because of a defect in the bars. It remains equally absurd if we imagine it is not a burglar who climbs in, but an innocent person who blunders or falls in. Again, suppose it were like this: people-seeds drift about in the air like pollen, and if you open your windows, one may drift in and take root in your carpets or upholstery. You don't want children, so you fix up your windows with fine mesh screens, the very best you can buy. As can happen, however, and on very, very rare occasions does happen, one of the screens is defective, and a seed drifts in and takes root. Does the person-plant who now develops have a right to the use of your house? Surely not--despite the fact that you voluntarily opened your windows, you knowingly kept carpets and upholstered furniture, and you knew that screens were sometimes defective. Someone may argue that you are responsible for its rooting, that it does have a right to your house, because after all you could have lived out your life with bare floors and furniture, or with sealed windows and doors. But this won't do--for by the same token anyone can avoid a pregnancy due to rape by having a hysterectomy, or anyway by never leaving home without a (reliable!) army.

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        • Pan

          I see what you are saying. I think in general murder - willful killing - is assumed to be unjust. But it is possible for it to be just. Like killing someone who is in extreme pain - putting them out of their misery. I'm pretty sure that kind of murder is seen as just.But I think most anti-choice folks on here state that "abortion is murder" as though it ends the argument. When they do this, it's pretty safe to assume that they mean an unjust killing.

          I wonder if my arguments that killing the fetus is not wrong just go right over their heads because they can't stop and think about just vs unjust killing... hmmm...

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        • @DarrellRoss I like you. "FTW" that's gold! Good job buddy. Seriously, love jousting online. Congrats on the pregnancy. Praying for enjoyable pregnancy and healthy baby for you and your wife. Dont apologize for sharing your story. There are people behind every story and people matter to God. We did adopt from China in 2006. Wonderful experience. Before adoption we stopped short of in vetro then adopted and then went back to OBGYN, who suggested in vetro and it worked first time. Now have 2yo bioligical son & 6yo Chinese girl. BTW: 2005 I read Dave Ramsey's "Total Money Makeover" and in 18 months we learned to budget and paid off $30K in consumer debt and saved $28K cash for our adoption. Highly recommend Dave Ramsey. Great practical personal finance advice. (www.daveramsey.com) without that book, we wouldn't have adopted or continued with fertility assistance. I know this is a far more complicated issue and I have learned more reading posts last couple of days. Ultimately, Federal Govt should send this to states as a states rights issue. I never want to legislate morality. But, protecting life that can't speak for itself is what I struggle with. Since I better understand the female fertility system because of our history, I know what a miracle each conception is. That's my view. Truly respect your history and your view. Love listening to other's perspective. Sorry for getting electronically combative. Have a great week. Go serve your wife and take care of her. You're a great husband. Remind her how lucky she is to have you! :)

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    • @gered Nope its not a matter of when does life begin, because as you can see a Libertarians supports force to remove unwanted individuals from ones property. NAP only applies in instances where one party isn't encroaching on the freedom of another. The end argument has to be who owns a woman's body.

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      • @vampyreshadow "Libertarians supports force to remove unwanted individuals from ones property." huh? Where did that come from? What's NAP?

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        • @gered Nonaggression policy, shesh, I am getting sick of repeating the same thing over and over. Plain and Simply put, it is neither here nor there on weather the Fetus has rights, I have stated this multiple times and I am quite frankly sick of saying it over and over again.

          The whole argument is to grant a fetus rights to Another humans body, risking her life and health, (1 in 10,000 Die in child birth, 1 in 100,000 die getting an abortion under safe conditions, then you include normal complications, and not so normal complications with pregnancy, I bring up my story because it better illustrates the point, I am and DJT are both prone to high risks, I am unique in the fact that I wasn't always high risk so I have experienced the issues with both normal and abnormal pregnancy progression and can tell you its not even remotely easy for both)

          This stance places more value on a fetus, you can not strip people of their Autonomy and still value human rights. You can not gamble with another's life or health to maybe save another (because gestation isn't guaranteeing healthy delivery,) What is more, you can not force a woman to try and maintain a healthy pregnancy when it is taking care of her body to do so, this doesn't work. History and Current events prove this.

          Anytime anyone mentions all of this you start "slut shaming" which as a sex positive female and feminist this really pisses me off, and Complaining about sex, psychology will tell you sex is a needed part of adult relationships (And I don't even have to resort to going Kinsey report on you, Kinsey is a bit to questionable for my liking's) and biology will tell you it takes one sperm and one egg to wind up pregnant, since this is all it requires, we have unwanted pregnancy even in long term monogamous relationships.

          Plain and simple, until you can advance programs like Ectogenisis http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2003/10/1/124441/622

          make adoption more attainable, and fix the issues behind abortion, legal or not abortion will exist, Sorry I will take the rights of existing people over potential people as i see them. I see to much problems behind the other option.

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