Protect All Human Life

The heated debate about abortion is filled with emotional arguments that usually center on considerations such as sexual morality, religious beliefs, women’s rights, or purely on pragmatic reasons: if abortion were made illegal it would still take place – under unsanitary conditions that would endanger additional lives.

However, a rational evaluation of abortion must be built upon one single question: When exactly does human life begin? At conception, at birth or somewhere in between?

Not even the most radical feminist would find it okay to tear apart a recently-born baby just because it is not wanted by its mother. All other considerations aside, the only reason many individuals can support abortion with a good conscience is because they believe it’s not murder… and that unborn babies do not count as human beings.

Ron Paul has delivered more than 4,000 babies. He believes that human life starts at conception, and that casual elimination of the unborn leads to a careless attitude towards all life.

Recalling his personal observation of a late-term abortion performed by one of his instructors during his medical residency, Ron Paul stated, “It was pretty dramatic for me to see a two-and-a-half-pound baby taken out crying and breathing and put in a bucket.”

In an Oct. 27, 1999 speech to Congress, Ron Paul said:

“I am strongly pro-life. I think one of the most disastrous rulings of this century was Roe versus Wade. I do believe in the slippery slope theory. I believe that if people are careless and casual about life at the beginning of life, we will be careless and casual about life at the end. Abortion leads to euthanasia. I believe that.”

During a May 15, 2007, appearance on the Fox News talk show Hannity and Colmes, Ron Paul argued that his pro-life position was consistent with his libertarian values, asking, “If you can’t protect life then how can you protect liberty?” Additionally, Ron Paul said that since he believes libertarians support non-aggression, libertarians should oppose abortion because abortion is “an act of aggression” against a fetus.

At the GOP Values Voter Presidential Debate on Sep 17, 2007, Ron Paul was asked what he will do to restore legal protection to the unborn:

“As an O.B. doctor of thirty years, and having delivered 4,000 babies, I can assure you life begins at conception. I am legally responsible for the unborn, no matter what I do, so there’s a legal life there. The unborn has inheritance rights, and if there’s an injury or a killing, there is a legal entity. There is no doubt about it.”

At the GOP YouTube debate in St. Petersburg, Florida, on Nov 28, 2007, Ron Paul was asked what a woman would be charged with if abortion becomes illegal and she obtains an abortion anyway:

“The first thing we have to do is get the federal government out of it. We don’t need a federal abortion police. That’s the last thing that we need. There has to be a criminal penalty for the person that’s committing that crime. And I think that is the abortionist. As for the punishment, I don’t think that should be up to the president to decide.”

For many years, Ron Paul has been speaking up for babies’ rights. He passionately defends those who cannot speak for themselves because they haven’t been born yet.

In order to “offset the effects of Roe v. Wade”, Paul voted in favor of the federal Partial-Birth Abortion Ban Act of 2003. He has described partial birth abortion as a “barbaric procedure”.

At the same time, Ron Paul believes that the ninth and tenth amendments to the U.S. Constitution do not grant the federal government any authority to legalize or ban abortion. Instead, it is up to the individual states to prohibit abortion.

Many people feel very strongly about the issue of abortion, and once they make up their minds they rarely change their opinion. If you are undecided and/or open-minded, check out this page and this site for more information about abortion, including images and a description of medical procedures.

8,341 Comments:

  1. JohnLutherBarnhart

    According to John Locke, property rights are natural. The 14th amendment implies that they are natural “nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law”.

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  2. JohnLutherBarnhart

    I’m not saying that lives are not equal. I am saying that rights are not equal. The right to life is greater than the right to liberty. Everyone’s right to life is equal. Everyone’s right to liberty is equal. But anyone’s right to life would be greater than anyone else’s right to liberty.

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  3. I want to know how Ron Paul left the room with the infant left in the bucket to die????????

    »crosslinked«

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  4. Under the pro-life stance and if the laws were changed, I would say the unborn or even born child (same thing). Since the state would be enforcing this then I believe they would be able to be sued by all living family members for at the least involuntary manslaughter…..and of course loss of financial support, childcare and emotional pain and suffering.

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  5. Guest, god Saved me money on my abortion…. Yeah sorry have to troll that piece of funny cosmic irony, ended up miscarrying the night before my abortion appointment

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    • Guest, I honestly didn’t feel much more then a minor twinge of feeling bad. I was in and out of the hospital so much just in the first month that I lost my house, That and after losing my 6 week 6 day old son after one bad birth, I just can’t feel anymore then numb on my body spontaneously aborting.

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  6. @Guest not guest
    A human being is no more self reliant one minute before birth than one minute after. For that matter, a six month old is still entirely dependent on caregivers for survival. So if a six month old life cannot exist on it’s own is it morally permissible to end that life?

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  7. Supporters of Pro Choice often recite the right to liberty, but neglect the right to life. While I believe in free will and choice, I believe it is only free until we make our “choice”. When male and female individuals choose to engage in sexual intercourse a very possible outcome is that it may result in a pregnancy. The impregnated female has a moral, or ethical if you prefer, obligation to ensure the safety and well being of the newly conceived life that is dependent upon her. I’ve often heard the argument that “the fetus is dependent on its prenatal parent”, but that doesn’t change once a child is born. A newborn child continues to be dependent on the parent. What would happen if a parent takes a child home from the hospital, but chooses to stop feeding the child? What would happen if a parent drives home from the hospital and chooses to leave the child in extreme cold or hot weather conditions, while they enter a climate controlled environment? I do not believe there is a rational person that would argue in defense of the free will of the parent in that situation, or make reference to “Laws of Nature”. When we choose to engage in sexual intercourse, we know that the outcome can result in pregnancy. We have made our choice, and as with all choices, must accept accountability. People making this choice are responsible for the child, BECAUSE ” the fetus is dependent on its prenatal parent”. Anyhow, I hope I’ve made my point. We must be weary of becoming detached and desensitized to the violent and atrocious act of abortion. We can not protect our pursuit of happiness without protecting both life and liberty.

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    • @you_who
      Loud & clear. Thank you!

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    • Excelent post.

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    • @you_who

      Your hyperbole about abortion does not make any of it true.

      “I’ve often heard the argument that “the fetus is dependent on its prenatal parent”, but that doesn’t change once a child is born.” ~ Wrong. You have crafted a straw-man argument which you are now burning. Great job. A newborn child is not dependent on their parent for life. They can be given to a different parent (something called adoption).

      “When we choose to engage in sexual intercourse, we know that the outcome can result in pregnancy. We have made our choice, and as with all choices, must accept accountability.” ~ This argument is absurd. The woman chose to have sex so she has to accept the consequences. That’s like punishing the victim of a car accident. They chose to drive the car. Doesn’t matter who is at fault for their car getting destroyed, let’s punish them for it! How about choosing to get married? You get married and then your spouse abuses you. Well, it was your choice to get married so it’s your fault you are getting abused. What a royal crock.

      “We can not protect our pursuit of happiness without protecting both life and liberty.” ~ Correct. And you believe in removing a pregnant woman’s liberty by telling her what she is allowed to do with her own body. Do you also support forced-organ donations? This would save numerous lives. We could force healthy people to donate kidneys. After all, if they don’t donate a spare kidney, then someone will die.

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  8. My right to liberty and my freewill combined do not trump another person’s right to life.

    And I do not want to subject my fate to the freewill of any other entity without the assurance that death would never be imposed upon me. It is one of the government’s very few intended responsibilties to protect its citizens from violence.

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  9. for those people who have abortions and become parents. I would rather not hear that you tell your kids to live up to their Responsibilities and face the consequences…because you didn’t .

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    • @its your choice True. I didn’t…therefore, after my abortion I ended up in a psychiatric hospital receiving electroconvulsive therapy. I would have been much better off facing the consequences of my pregnancy than those of the abortion. I wouldn’t wish my mental torture on my worst enemy, much less my own son; therefore, I am teaching young people to ALWAYS choose life.

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      • @muppet@its your choice Because everyone is exactly like you? The world doesn’t work that way.

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        • @djt@its your choice No woman realizes when she is “exercising her choice” that she is going to suffer emotional and often physical harm because of her action. Sometimes the realization does not occur until years later. Anyway, killing another person is wrong no matter what I am like.

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        • @djt@muppet no the world does not work that way…but its your choice to feel the way you feel not anyone else’s, its your choice to do the things you do. But if something like a ‘baby’ comes out of it…take care of it!!! it was your choice to have the sex in the first place.

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        • @muppet

          Oh that’s right, women are just emotionally stupid and they “never” think about an abortion prior to getting one. /endSarcasm

          Glad to see you respect yourself so much. I appear to hold more respect for the intelligence level of women than you do.

          @its your choice

          Ah the old choice to have sex argument. Are you intentionally promoting gay sex? How about anal sex? Oral sex? Just wondering because none of those can lead to pregnancy. Why should gay people get to have guilt-free sex while straight people cannot?

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        • @DarrellRoss@muppet@its your choice When will you guys learn NO FORM OF BIRTH CONTROL is 100 percent, thus a male male is pregnancy free sex, female female, oral and sodomy but strait sex is out 😛 Sex isn’t against the law, thus you can not force a woman to labor for your ideals

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        • Simply Put

          You missed my point. My point was not that they are promoting those. It’s a touch-in-cheek argument. Most folks who are anti-choice tend to also be a few years behind in other areas of equality as well – like gay marriage. Or they believe being gay is evil or some other nonsense. I just wanted to poke fun at them for it.

          This is similar to how many people who are anti-abortion are also anti-health-care. They call it Obamacare and are against it and argue about big government and then they want the government to regulate the uteruses of women. The double-standard is pathetic.

          The government should never be able to force women to have kids. It doesn’t matter if they tried to get pregnant and then changed their minds. It’s their body and their choice.

          People who are anti-abortion should put their money where their mouth is and focus on proactive ways to reduce abortions. It’s very simple and the statistics all point towards three things:

          1. Comprehensive sex education as early as possible.

          2. Providing contraceptives to all who need it. Incidentally, Obama’s Heath Care plan requires churches to provide contraceptives through health insurance and some of them are very angry about it. Of course, they are anti-abortion but are not interested in fighting the root cause of the problem which is unwanted pregnancies. Instead they would rather demonize people for having sex.

          3. Providing support to women who have unwanted pregnancies. Don’t want that woman to abort? How about we yell at her and tell her she’s evil and show her pictures of mutilated fetuses? LOL! What a joke! You want to help her? Offer her free weekly checkups. Provide her with excellent prenatal and postpartum care. Fight for legislation that requires maternity leave by all employers.

          Now THAT would help reduce the number of abortions by stopping the problem of unwanted pregnancies.

          But most anti-abortion folks would rather just criminalize people as if that ends it. Get real.

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        • @DarrellRoss I personally think early SEX-ED is pointless, and a horrible use of money… The young you start teaching them about it the earlier they’re going to be curious about it, and want to experience it for them selves.

          contraceptives are NOT the answer either. The best contraceptive is to NOT have SEX period till you are married and are ready to have children. Thats what it was created for in the first place, not to have fun with every person you think is good looking, or to get back at somebody.

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        • @Yhwh4life

          People who think that not teaching kids about sex will keep them from having it are incredibly naive. Our society eats sleeps and breathes sex. It’s also a built-in urge supported by hormones. Kids will start having sex whether or not you tell them about it. It is FAR better for them to make an informed decision. Most kids are aware of sex before the age of 10 without anyone telling them about it. I learned about sex at the age of 8. I did not have sex until the age of 19. I am not against people having sex at younger ages. It’s just not a big deal as long as they use protection and do so with care.

          There is no argument that not have sexual intercourse (abstinence) is the best contraceptive. The whole not-until-you-are-married thing is nonsense though. That is from hundreds of years ago. There is nothing wrong with having sex before marriage. There’s nothing wrong with not getting married either.

          Sex is wonderful. It should be enjoyed. You appear to hold sex in a different light than I do. That’s fine. But the statistics clearly rule in my favor in terms of sex education. You are delusional if you think not teaching kids about sex will make them less curious.

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        • @Yhwh4life@DarrellRoss You don’t know basic statistics, people who deny sex ed have a higher rate of teen pregnancy then those who offer comprehensive sex ed. Actually same with abortion rates, there is the irony, the lowest rates of abortion are those areas with comprehensive sex ed, actually here is another Irony, Higher the rate of Atheists the lower the rate of teen pregnancy and abortion

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        • @DarrellRoss@Yhwh4life I remember a female friend of mine from back in school, her parents were fundies, I actually had to explain to her how she got pregnant, they got in trouble the Year before from DCFS for educational neglect because she was homeschooled and could barely read. So she wound up going from sheltered, to in the school. Fucked up part is she just thought she was just sick and gaining weight, I had to tell her to take a pregnancy test. This was a 14 year old girl, who found out she was pregnant at 4 months along.

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        • @vampyreshadow@DarrellRoss@Yhwh4life

          I honestly don’t believe in sex ed either, well I do. But not in middle school or in the beginning of high school, people think that if you teach them earlier then they’ll know more and won’t do it or they’ll be safe, this is not the case. the earlier you expose it to the younger ones, they get curious and do stuff. My best friend was 5 with she first started playing round with sex, and she later on lost her virginity with her BROTHER. and I’ve had problems with this with other people I know. so I don’t care what statistics say and if your really want to go that road listen to this. the average male brain does not fully mature until the age of 25 to 30 and the females mind doesn’t until the age of 20 to 25. So you want to put sex into the brains of 12 to 14 year old’s? and hope for the best? I’m really sorry but that sounds kind of idiotic to me.

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        • The issue is far more complex than this. IMO, we as humans have pretty distorted attitudes about sexuality. We have names for all our body parts and we teach them to our children as parents, as well as in school from an early age. We teach the system of the body, meanwhile we don’t speak about our reproductive parts to our children. We fear using the word vagina and penis……most people call these normal, natural parts of our anatomy by any other name but these. It has a set of terms for kids and a different set for adults. I grew up in farm country – lived on a farm, with farms on all sides of me. We saw all kinds of animals having sex and giving birth. My mother called all of our body parts by their anatomically correct names. She answered all our questions when we asked them in a simple manner that was focused on our current questions. Of course, we transferred these questions to humans and she responded the same – no drama, no secrecy and NO SHAME. No big talks about moral issues when we were little asking these questions. It was a fact of life and not something to dwell on in regards to personal sexuality. This did not at all make us hyper focused and super curious about sex. I cannot recall ever NOT knowing where babies came from. My mother addressed personal sexuality when we hit puberty and asked questions again. This did not make me cavalier about sexually, nor did it make me promiscuous. I saw the absolutely brilliance in what my mother had done and followed the same path as she did. My daughter learned about her vagina right along with where her eyes and ears were on her body.

          It is secrecy, shame and the idea that sexuality is not normal and healthy that has caused such extremes in the attitudes of our societies.

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        • @its your choice@vampyreshadow@DarrellRoss@Yhwh4life When a parent refuses to be open about a natural part of our bodies and the nature of it, YOU are teaching your child about sexuality…..you just don’t know it. You teach them it is a secret and that you are the one holding the secrets. Since you won’t tell them then they rebel, looking for alternative ways to find answers to their innate curiosity for knowledge (this goes for all subject matters).

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        • @its your choice@vampyreshadow@DarrellRoss@Yhwh4lifeWhen my sister gave birth, my daughter was 3. She asked if the baby came out her belly button and I answered no. “Where does it come from?” she asked. I explained that a woman’s body has an extra opening between the two places we go to the bathroom from. She asked how a baby gets out of such a small place and I told her it stretched out like a big rubber band to let the baby out. Appropriate for her to understand. She had already asked, “Is it in her stomach where food goes?”, when her belly grew…….this is when I explained that a female has a uterus that acts as a house for the baby. Next time my daughter showered she sat down in front of the mirror to discover this opening on herself. “Is this it?”….”Yeah, that it”. “ok”, she said and she ran of to get dressed. No obsession from her, no more questions at that time. i told her all families are different and some people don’t feel comfortable about these topics so it would be best that she didn’t go explaining this to her friends. She never did. I addressed each question regarding sexuality as it came up for her, just like any other subject matter in life. So, at 3 yrs of age, of her own accord with nothing more than a direct answer (I specifically only answered her question, letting her questions guide how far it went), she understood all except how the egg was fertilized. She was always like this on all subjects…..

          Gradually learning based on the child, their own personality and IQ level is appropriate. Then it is no big deal and they just move on to the next thing that captures their thirst to grow, learn and understand life and the world around them.

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        • @its your choice

          “so I don’t care what statistics say”

          Well… statistics say you are WRONG. So I can see you avoiding them to prove your point.

          I was going to ask you to cite some evidence being pure conjecture which supports your claims. But you have none and all evidence is against what you claim.

          Most kids explore at a very young age. Gee what’s this thing I have? Obviously they will explore. The point is to teach them what is right and wrong early so that they do not make mistakes. If you teach them nothing, they will have to learn on their own.

          Do you actually believe that a 12 year-old doesn’t know what sex is? Are you that naive?And yes, the best thing to do with ANYONE is to teach them how to make good decisions and then let them make the informed decision. Authoritarian parenting where you just tell them what they can and cannot do only works until they leave the nest. Then they don’t know how to live because you cannot convey everything to them.

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        • @DarrellRoss ok I agree with you that kids do ask questions and kids do explore. but if they ask questions then thats the parents job to teach them not the schools job…all the school does is give them condoms and birth control and tell them to be safe.

          and didn’t I prove that I did believe what statistics say by posting one??? I don’t believe most statistics online because they’re posted by random people and some that are scientifically facted aren’t true.

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        • @its your choice

          So the school is supposed to refrain from teaching them human anatomy? How about physical education? Are they to pretend it doesn’t exist?

          I think part of the reason sex education is done at public schools it to benefit everyone. Parents who want to keep their children in the dark are free to opt-out. This is similar to vaccines. There are parents who opt-out. When they do this, they put all other children at risk. The more that opt-out, the more risk of a disease which has been gone for centuries cropping up again. Similarly, the more parents who prefer to let their kids learn about sex on their own, the more danger there is of STDs and of unwanted pregnancies.

          The fact is that kids have sex. They interact and meet at schools. It is essential that they be aware of what sex is, what STDs are, and how to protect themselves.

          “and didn’t I prove that I did believe what statistics say by posting one??? I don’t believe most statistics online because they’re posted by random people and some that are scientifically facted aren’t true.”

          You contradicted yourself. You claim that posting a single statistic proves you trust them. In the very next sentence you say that you do not trust them. By all means, track down the source. But you cannot pick and choose which statistics you will base your facts on. You can set some ground rules for what constitute good statistics. Like maybe a double-blind study and a minimum sample size of 10,000. But you cannot simply decide you don’t like the way some work. That’s a double-standard.

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  10. Most rape victims don’t choose abortion, either. It’s usually their families and sometimes even the rapist himself who take them to the abortion clinics. i.e. “coerced abortion.”

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  11. @Bloppie Equal rights for unborn women!

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  12. I’d rather have the custodian who would protect my life.

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  13. There is a reason “life” is mentioned first in that premise. My liberty ends where my baby’s life begins.

    Additionally, when I become feeble and completely dependent upon my child, will my fate be subject to his freewill?

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  14. Read a “Modest Proposal” by Jonathan Swift it is a great idea for dealing with all this mess.

    A Modest Proposal for Preventing the Children of Poor People in Ireland From Being a Burden on Their Parents or Country, and for Making Them Beneficial to the Publick, commonly referred to as A Modest Proposal, is a Juvenalian satirical essay written and published anonymously by Jonathan Swift in 1729. Swift suggests that impoverished Irish might ease their economic troubles by selling their children as food for rich gentlemen and ladies. This satirical hyperbole mocks heartless attitudes towards the poor, as well as Irish policy in general.

    Thank you Wikipedia

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  15. I can relate to Ron Paul on his fiscal views but respectfully agree to disagree on this subject…

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  16. What mother would rather die than give her unborn child a chance to live a life thats rightfully theirs to live??? I would vote for ALL ABORTIONS to I-L-L-E-G-A-L!! Every abortion is murder.

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    • @Yhwh4life

      Killing the fetus is not necessarily unjust. What you actually support is for the government to tell women how to live their lives and what they can and cannot do with their bodies.

      Keep your mythical man out of my reality-based government.

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      • @DarrellRoss @Yhwh4life
        Women are more than welcome to choose not to participate in the sexual act or to have protection, but once that decision has been made & life is created, that life deserves protection. Consider it us attempting to protect all of those lives that selfish people choose to ignore. And don’t use the rape card! 1% of abortions stem from rape. More than 50% are women under 25, who are so bombarded by this to each their own, everything’s about me culture!

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        • @Bkwmm@DarrellRoss@Yhwh4life maybe you two wingnuts should be paying attention to the rightwing group that wants all contraceptions banned and no intervention of fertilization?

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        • @Bkwmm@DarrellRoss@Yhwh4life Perhaps Bkwmm, if you believe you are guilty of a crime you should take yourself to the local prison and check yourself in, as opposed to extracting a pound of flesh from others to excuse your feelings about your past actions. Seek forgiveness of the self if you need, but don’t go after others for your own guilts.

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        • @djt @DarrellRoss @Yhwh4life
          Goodness gracious. I am standing for saving lives & educating young women do that this culture doesn’t impress upon them that it’s ok to have sex at 15 & have an abortion. I had no such mentors. Had abortion been illegal, I would not have had one. My convictions, repentance, forgiveness, & redemption go through God & Christ, not you or anyone else. It would not have been easy, but if someone would have taken the time to explain how precious life is, where it comes from, etc, I would have had that child & made it through just fine just like I do now with 3. There are no 15 year old girls debating this issue. Instead, they’re living in a culture of Godlessness & selfishness.

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        • @Bkwmm @djt @DarrellRoss @Yhwh4life I wish people would listen to those of us who have experienced abortion and it’s consequential trauma. Thank you for speaking out…have you submitted your story to the SilentNoMore Awareness Campaign? It is confidential, but they compile them and use them very efficiently. If you haven’t, please check out the website, and you can see my testimony “Lee is Silent No More,” also posted on YouTube. God bless you!

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        • @Bkwmm

          It is ok to have sex at 15. It is ok to have an abortion. Guilt-tripping women who choose to have abortions is terrible. They should have every right to choose what happens within their own bodies.

          Outlawing abortion is impractical. Those who are pro-life seem to not really understand the implications of outlawing abortion. Instead of more freedoms, let’s criminalize more people. What will do you? Throw them in prison? What about the spontaneous abortions? Up to 50% of conceptions are spontaneously aborted. How will the government decide between a woman who had poor nutrition which lead to a miscarriage and a woman who wanted an abortion?How about this one — do you honestly think the government, which will be paying for all these pregnant women’s medical care, will allow a woman to carry to term a child which she intends to give up for adoption which has a severe disease? If the government gets to decide when to force a woman to keep a child, you betchya they will also decide when to force an abortion.

          You anti-sex people – you are only anti-heterosexual-sex. We should clearly encourage people to have gay sex, anal sex, and oral sex because they don’t risk pregnancy that way. Is that what you mean?

          Repentance? Blech. I have never believed in a god or gods. Like millions in this country, I reject such utter nonsense. Santa Claus, Zues, Odin, Thor, the Tooth Fairy? Do you believe in those? Why not?

          Bringing your religion into a debate about abortion within the confines of a secular nation is utterly pointless. It only paints you as one who cannot argue a point without backup from your god. Isn’t it convenient how your god agrees with everything you say?

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        • @djt@Bkwmm@DarrellRoss@Yhwh4life a few of these remind me of the fruit cakes out of the Only Moral abortion is my abortion.

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        • @djt@Bkwmm@DarrellRoss@Yhwh4life Do you mean the Catholic Church?

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        • Yes, but I think what would really be good for them is for them to go take their butts to prison and ask for a good long stay for their “crimes” before God. Let them leave their little ones at home to fend for themselves. But, you see part of their forgiveness program is that God has CHOSEN them for a special purpose and their story is their repentence…their message…the messengers of God.

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        • @Bkwmm@djt@DarrellRoss Thank you, so much for all you do to educate woman of all ages…. I can’t begin to imagine the pain you go through. May God bless you.

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        • @DarrellRoss@Bkwmm When you get pregnant it is no longer just your body… You are carrying a humane being inside of you, who is not old enough to speak for him/her self, which than is now your responsablity. If God agreed with everything we do than he would be okay with us killing these little children.

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        • @vampyreshadow@djt@Bkwmm@DarrellRoss What do you mean by that?

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        • Man DarrellRoss you sure can spew a lot of gobblde gook. You subject a lot of impressonable young girls to the diarrhea like verbage in your posts. I am glad not to have the same dark pit as you from whence to extract the info that you do. I think I would cut my arm off after reaching into that pit. You can’t beleve in God,Jesus,Santa,the Easter bunny, you can’t believe in the feeling a new born puppie or kitten gives you? Were you raised in a dark cellar or a cold pit? Did you actualy come from Hell. You need to be rescued just to keep you from giving anyone else your disease.

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      • @DarrellRoss First of all there is NO such thing as a fetus. And a woman makes that choice to have sex, if she happens to get pregnant than you need to take responsablity for your actions… And not take it out on a helpless little baby… The Government should not be allowing this kind of murderous act, let alone using our tax dollars to fund it… And we dont get a say? This is not a reality I am proud to be a part of.

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      • @DarrellRoss First of all there is NO such thing as a fetus. And a woman makes that choice to have sex, if she happens to get pregnant than you need to take responsablity for your actions… And not take it out on a helpless little baby… The Government should not be allowing this kind of murderous act, let alone using our tax dollars to fund it… And we dont get a say? This is not a reality I am proud to be a part of.

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        • @Yhwh4life @DarrellRoss Uh oh. “Fetus” is actually a term for a stage of mammalian development…it goes: zygote, fetus, infant, toddler, child, adolescent, adult, senior…the word “fetus” in Latin means “little one.” Abortion advocates have abused the terms “embryo” and “fetus” in order to dehumanize pre-born babies. Please educate yourself well before arguing to avoid diminishing the pro-life position. I agree with everything else you said.

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        • @Yhwh4life

          Seriously get over this whole “sex is evil and the forcing the woman to carry to term is punishment” crap. I believe the statistics are that around 50% of abortions are done on women who already have one child and are making a life-decision. That is, they don’t think they can support another child. They did not intend to get pregnant. Many of them are married.

          You don’t get a say? Well if the Government is in control, you certainly will not get a say.

          Not sure what you mean about the “no such thing as a fetus” bit. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fetus.

          You fail to grasp the meaning of the right-to-life argument. The fetus has a right-to-life. The mother has a right-to-life. The fetus does not have a right to the use of the mother’s body without her permission. The abortion is like her withdrawing that permission. Not literally but that’s how the right-to-life argument pans out.

          Why do you want the government forcing women to carry unwanted pregnancies to term? It’s not that you care for the life. If you cared for the life, you would be focusing on helping the women, not criminalizing them.

          Why are so many people so ignorant when it comes to criminalization? Making something illegal does *NOT* stop it from happening. All it does is create criminals out of the people who do it. And it often drives the act into the dangerous black-market area.

          Making abortion illegal is completely impractical. You cannot make abortion illegal and maintain the freedoms we have in this country. Just like you cannot outlaw some forms of free speech. It’s simply not possible. If you outlaw parts, then it’s no longer free. If you outlaw abortion, then women will be taking a step backwards in equality.

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      • @DarrellRoss@Yhwh4life We were born to this country for the benifit of future generations, to give our citizens, natueral or legal imigrants, all borne, or unboarn, the right to live free and in doing so guarantee our own freedoms. We are expected to protect those in this country that can not protect themselves. This is what our soldiers do when asked. Most of the time. Our primary job is to sacrifice, if need be, for the right of this country to offer the protection that is not afforded in any other country in the world. We are at great risk of loosing that protection. In chosing your right to your ” liberty,” you will deny a future person a right to his or her liberty and this shows, for all to see, just how much you truly believe in your self interest. This is called selfish. See next post over charector limit.

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        • We were told by our forfathers that we had been given a New Republic and all we had to do was hang on to it. Vote for liberty and our republic. Vote for Dr. Ron Paul. 2012.

          We have made mistakes. We can forgive and be forgiven for our mistakes. We can save ourselves for a continuation of our benefits as long as we include the same benifits for our future generations.

          We must make sure that they, unlike us, understand that they are the custodians of the rights of furture citizens, even if that requires a sacrifice of there liberty. Do this and you are a true patriot.

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        • @Demsprtr

          This is a total dead-end argument. You want to take away freedom from women and give it to potential human beings. Since the potential human beings cannot actually talk, the government (ie: other people) will be telling women what they are and are not allowed to do with their own bodies.

          Outlawing abortion TAKES AWAY FREEDOMS. It does not provide them. It is impractical.

          Yes that’s right, I want to provide sex education and free contraceptives to all AND I would like women to be able to control their own bodies. Clearly this is selfish of me, an infertile man who cannot get pregnant. Brilliant! Where do you come up with this stuff?

          What we are at risk of is succumbing to religious zealotry and allowing theocratic viewpoints further trespass into the laws of our secular nation. The vast majority of anti-choice people are so on religious grounds.

          You want to take away the rights of women and have government control their lives in the name of your belief system.

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        • @DarrellRoss@Demsprtr Totally off topic, Darrell and other debaters but thanks, I am far to emotional at the moment to maintain a good debate, so I end up trolling, I am on far to many medications due to the health issues this pregnancy caused to do much more then rant at these guys 😛 Actually missed so much work thanks to it I lost everything which really makes me want to rant at these assholes. Nice to see you, guys maintaining a good fight.

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        • @DarrellRoss @Demsprtr Maybe you’re right…women should have the liberty to terminate the lives of their fetuses, for the sake of planning the sizes of their families. Perhaps a more feasible option would be to legalize the euthanasia of infants and toddlers…stay with me here…the procedure used for veterinary patients is extremely humane…in contrast to giant cervical speculums, specially-made vacuum aspirators powerful enough to remove tissue adhesions (more difficult than the fluid accumulation removal required by any other medical procedure), and blindly weilding sharp curettages and obstetric forceps for extended periods of time while trying to preserve the integrity of the uterine epithelium…after all, the patient might want to expand her family in the future, and that option should certainly be available…not only would the pain-capable pre-born child not have to endure being crushed dismembered (which I understand doesn’t matter…after all, he has no voice and cannot speak for himself)…more importantly, his mother would be spared the possible pyometra, sepsis, hemorrhage, anesthetic complications, uterine perforation and evisceration…can’t say she wouldn’t suffer the usual mental torture typical of the post-abortion patient, though. It might not be deemed acceptable, though, because we would actually have to see and hear what is being done to the babies. After all, legalized abortion is out-of-sight, out-of-mind…oh, well..

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        • @muppet@Demsprtr

          Nice straw-man. You burned it quite effectively too.

          Your graphic description of abortion via text is no different than flashing images of bloody fetuses. When you fail to find a good argument, just resort to bile. Hyperbole anyone?

          Try to stick to the topic at hand. I believe this thread was about how sex should only be had for procreation and women should not be able to have sex with the same abandon as men. At least, that’s what @Demsprtr seemed to imply.

          @muppet and @Demsprtr

          Please now defend your position that should a woman get pregnant after choosing to have sex, she deserves to be forced to carry to term. I provided a few counter examples which you have ignored.

          I take it then that you concede my point?

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        • @DarrellRoss@muppet In re-view of my last post I don’t see where I made the slightest mention of how or why a woman becomes pregnant. I have only tryed to relay the need for those that enjoy the benifits afforded us with the new country, it’s Republic, and, to extend those blessings to new citizens, even the unborne ones. Not to extend those blessings is the same as dishoner in the face of those that did secure those rights, for us, even to this day. If we would only embrase them. Tradeing a brand new life for ones liberty is a gastly price to pay for such a selfish deed.

          My position is one of offence and have no need to concede to retoric spued by one that will deny someone a liberty only to retain that liberty for ones self.

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        • It is not yet against law to have an abortion so if you are advocating for others to have abortions and your pregnancy is putting you at risk of dying, then, by all means go and get this abortion. Only you can know for sure, if this is the case and only you in your own heart can know this. You can have this done but no one can undo it. If you need to do this take DarrellRoss with you for comfort and compassion. Truth is stranger then fiction. If you can hang on and have this baby and surive this ordeal yourself and when the child is eighteen, do this, let him or her know what a pain in the ass thay were.

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        • DarellRoss I don’t think you have a grasp on what it takes to maintain a republic. We are guaranteed our rights and freedoms as long as we are willing to fight to the death to keep those rights. Any one of us may be called upon to fight for those rights, not just for ourselves, as we may die in the process. The life of our liberties and freedoms are at stake. The life and liberty of the women that you would have us believe you advocate for. She won’t advocate for another woman or man as she would have them aborted. She and you in order to protect the rights of future U.S. people should stand in defence of thair right to the same blessings that you enjoy. I don’t want to take her freedom away, I want her to stand in defence of those rights,to the death, if need be, as in not doing so may cause any to follow to suffer under a tyranny of which no rights will exhist.

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        • @vampyreshadow@DarrellRoss I may have totaly missed the boat about your situation and if now, I understand that you have miscarried then I am so sorry for my previous comment and wholehartedly apologize for same. Your situation may be unique and I will continue to fight for healthy unborne of healthy mothers. I hope you a good recovery and look foreward to some healthy future debates. If you are calling me an asshole, thank you, i’m clean and usefull.

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    • @Yhwh4life
      I would second that vote!

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    • @Yhwh4life I’m sorry but this is out there and so romanticized!!!!! Would you be offended if I told you to believe in the tooth fairy?

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  17. JohnLutherBarnhart

    I don’t think anyone wants abortion to be illegal under all situations. Certainly abortion is acceptable if it is to save the life of the mother. I don’t see Ron Paul saying that abortion is illegal under all situations. It wasn’t that abortion was illegal before Roe v Wade, but that case made abortion available upon demand.

    Free moral choice must never inflict upon the unalienable rights of others. What is so difficult to understand about that? The mother’s right of liberty (to do whatever she wants) is limited by the fetus’ right to life. The current law infringes on the fetus’ right to life.

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    • @JohnLutherBarnhart With something this serious please take a closer look at it because we would automatically lose rights according to individual states and they absolutely are looking to prevent it altogether. Think about your own wife or daughters.

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      • JohnLutherBarnhart

        @djt The only abortion procedure I know about governments wanting to prevent altogether is partial birth abortion. I’ve never heard a good argument for the procedure at all. They deliver everything but the head, and they can’t just deliver the entire baby? Delivering the head at that point wouldn’t kill the mother.

        Are there any states that are absolutely looking to abolish every form of abortion for any and all reasons, including saving the mother’s life? I don’t think so. If I’m wrong, please give some actually references.

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      • @JohnLutherBarnhart

        http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/26/us/politics/personhood-amendments-would-ban-nearly-all-abortions.html

        “The amendment in Mississippi would ban virtually all abortions, including those resulting from rape or incest. It would bar some birth control methods, including IUDs and “morning-after pills,” which prevent fertilized eggs from implanting in the uterus. It would also outlaw the destruction of embryos created in laboratories.”

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      • @DarrellRoss @JohnLutherBarnhart
        Wow, go Mississippi!

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      • JohnLutherBarnhart

        @DarrellRoss@JohnLutherBarnhart The text of the Mississippi amendment is “The term ‘person’ or ‘persons’ shall include eve human being from the moment of fertilization, cloning, or the functional equivalent thereof.”

        The quote you have given from the article is their take on the ramifications of the amendment, not the amendment itself. The amendment doesn’t actually mean that abortions will stop. It could mean that, if that is how the courts interpret it.

        The birth control scare is pushing it, I think. You would have to establish that there was indeed a pregnancy before the morning after pill to charge anyone with a crime. And it isn’t just IUDs and the morning after pill that work this way. “The pill” can work in this way as well. Also, there are a percentage of eggs that just don’t implant in the uterus, for whatever reason.

        And, it does not mean that a woman could not get a life saving abortion.

        So, this is not an example of a state banning any and all abortions.

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      • @JohnLutherBarnhart

        LOL.

        I’m sorry, were you applying your bible interpretation strategies to the news article? Please explain to me how you figure that protecting a fetus with the 14th amendment would not outlaw abortion?

        The “Yes on 26″ campaign is explicitly a Pro-Life campaign. I think you’re being thick on purpose. On the off-chance that you are truly this naive, here’s some more reading for you:

        http://personhoodmississippi.com/amendment-26/why.aspx

        “If Mississippians vote Yes on Amendment 26 – Abortion will be outlawed. Unborn children will no longer be killed “legally”. Mothers in crisis will be protected from a harmful medical procedure.”

        “If Mississippians vote Yes on Amendment 26 – human cloning, embryo stem cell research, and other forms of medical cannibalism would be effectively stopped – which would focus the attention of medical researchers on approaches that have been proven to actually work (like adult stem cells) and do not require the killing of an innocent Person.”

        “If Mississippians vote Yes on Amendment 26 – a legal challenge will be set up to the unconstitutional court ruling “Roe-v-Wade” that allegedly “legalized” abortion. ”

        ………….

        Now. Feel free to show us your mad magical interpretation skills about how this says nothing about abortion.

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      • JohnLutherBarnhart

        @DarrellRoss I was merely clarifying what the amendment actually says. Your previous post implied it explicitly mentioned abortion, which it does not. Certainly the goal is to restrict abortion, but it does depend on how the courts interpret it. You don’t think that someone will take this amendment to court? And the attorney general of Mississippi will have to defend that amendment, and/or specifically prosecute those who perform abortions. We will have to see if that happens.

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      • @JohnLutherBarnhart

        Mad skills man!

        You avoided the rest of my post entirely. The people pushing for the passage of Amendment 26 in Mississippi clearly state their intentions. I think “Abortion will be outlawed.” was pretty succinct.

        And John deftly changes the topic.

        Surely if the law is going to get stuck in the courts, then the original intentions of the people trying to pass the law don’t count! /endSarcasm

        Your question was:

        “Are there any states that are absolutely looking to abolish every form of abortion for any and all reasons, including saving the mother’s life? I don’t think so. If I’m wrong, please give some actually references.”

        The answer is YES. Mississippi is not the only state seeking to do this.

        Are you beating around the bush or are you really THAT naive?

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      • JohnLutherBarnhart

        @DarrellRoss@JohnLutherBarnhart I still don’t see the Mississippi amendment barring abortion to save the life of the mother. And that is the question I raised. Even if the amendment overturned Roe v. Wade, things would just go back to the way they were before Roe v. Wade.

        From the prochoice.org website: “The Roe case arose out of a Texas law that prohibited legal abortion except to save a woman’s life. At that time, most other states had laws similar to the one in Texas. Those laws forced large numbers of women to resort to illegal abortions.” Note that it says “except to save a woman’s life”. Before Roe v. Wade abortion was legal, but only to save a woman’s life. If Roe v. Wade was to be overturned, it would go back to the same thing. This amendment in Mississippi would not cause women to die because they could not get an abortion. The life of the mother does trump the life of the fetus, but the liberty of the mother does not.

        From “Personhood Amendment: Exposing the myths”

        (http://www.onenewsnow.com/Perspectives/Default.aspx?id=1472348)

        “[However] if the life of the mother is truly stake, there is nothing in this amendment that prevents the doctor from saving her life, even if it cuts against the child. I will not say the doctor attends to the mother first. I believe this amendment will cause a doctor to look at both mother and child with a sense of equality. His goal should be to have a viable child and a safe mother. In the case of a tubal or ectopic pregnancy, that is not a viable pregnancy. So unless the mother chooses to have a child, which is not viable and will result in her death as well, the doctor may remove him or her [through abortion].””

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    • @JohnLutherBarnhart
      Amen!

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      • @Bkwmm I cannot locate your post that says you would prefer the mother that chooses life so I am addressing it here. That’s play a scenario. I am a five yr. old little girl. I am the oldest of three children. The youngest is 1 and we are poor. My father works in a factory. My mommy is pregnant and we have all been excited but something goes wrong, horribly wrong. My mommy is sick and the doctors tell her that she is going to die, I don’t know what that really means but they will be able to put her on some sort of machine (life support) for a while and then we will have a little brother. Some kind of test told my mommy it was a boy and also that she would die. “Mommy what does that mean?”, i ask her. “It means honey that I am going home to the Lord Jesus, in heaven. Don’t worry my child, for God will watch over and not let harm come to a single hair on your head. Trust my love and you will be cared for.” I still don’t really understand but I do know that the baby in my mommy’s belly has something to do with why she is going to heaven. I feel scared. Daddy works alot. Who will take care of us? God will? Will God brush my hair and help me get dressed for school? Will he be there when someone was mean to me at school or I just want to cuddle?

        This mother actually has a choice still because the laws protect her but she is so certain that God will take care of her and her life will be a testimony to all mothers in the nation that she forges ahead with her stalwart decision, even as her husband questions her. “What about our three babies at home, Hon? Please think about it. We need you, the kids need you. I can’t give them what you provide. Please change your mind.” The wife and mother of three insists God will care for them all and she is doing a great and righteous deed. She dies, they get their little brother. The father struggles. The church helps him, the neighbors and his family that live long distance sends him money each month. He can’t keep up. Not with the bills, not with the kids needs, not with the cleaning. Someone calls DCF and ooooops! The kids are in foster care………………no mom and no dad.

        I am the 5 year old. I heard my daddy crying and saying mommy could have stayed. “Why did mommy leave me? Doesn’t she love me? Why does that boy keep coming in my room at night……..”

        Yeah, I would choose the mother that chose her children’s lives that she already has!!!!

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      • @djt You’re referring to someone else’s post. I am the one you told your mother had 8 kids & died at 52.

        6% of abortions occur because of potential health problems regarding either the mother or child.

        The mother could have been hit by a car.

        Do you have anyone in your life that loves you & you live in return? I’m glad they exist.

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      • @Bkwmm Yes, of course I have many loved ones. I am a very at risk person with pregnancy and I can tell you in a second, that I would never, ever choose to carry out an accidental pregnancy based on my medical condition and risk leaving the beautiful daughter that I have now. Never and don’t tell me I should never have sex again. I already said I cannot have tubal ligation. Another woman confirmed she had one and still got pregnant. I would absolutely choose to be here for my daughter that needs me. I am not replaceable. I am loved.

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      • @djt You would not be loved nor your beautiful daughter exist had your mother aborted you.

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      • @Bkwmm @djt Lol that is the lamest line, in our lives, everyones, there are times where if we had made another choice, or if someone had done something different we would be dead. I had that the other night, if I hadn’t jammed the breaks and hit a ditch, everyone in my car wouldve been dead. That’s life. What if my mom had aborted, what if she had miscarrried, what if someone dropped a safe on my head. What ifs are not what life is about

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      • @Bkwmm I told you from the deepest part of my being that I truly do not feel if my mother aborted me it matters. I would not have known or cared. I’m here, thus I am happy and value my life. As I said she tried and I honestly feel nothing but empathy for her. She suffered greatly in her life. Even though an answer to it now is really pointless as I had no feelings then, I would have given my life for her to escape what was happening in her life. She did not do it from selfishness. She told me that she felt horrible to allow another life to come into what was happening. How could she let babies come to such a life, was her feeling. I honor her as a woman and a mother. I honor her with my life and the raising of my own child and being here for my daughter. I would honor her by saving my life if I found myself in that difficult position. Period. If I had to do it against laws then so be it.

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      • Beany

        You are applying your own situation to that of all women. Why is it so hard to understand that everyone has different situations. Each woman is making the best decision she can.

        Here are some facts for you:

        http://www.guttmacher.org/media/presskits/abortion-US/statsandfacts.html

        Please also watch the video there. It is essential that women retain the right to control their own bodies.

        All of these arguments from privileged people about the “consequences of choices” are retarded. You are making an argument from a privileged position and you don’t even know it.

        You claim a respect for life and yet you cite forcing the mother to carry to term as a consequence for her actions. You claim to fight for the rights of the fetus and yet you are fine with it being born to a mother who does not want it and may treat it terribly. Do you see why your claims of protecting the fetus seem insincere? If not, don’t bother answering.

        Here is what we need:

        Comprehensive sex education.

        Contraceptives readily available.

        Ample support for women who have unwanted pregnancies.

        Here is what we DO NOT need:

        Women criminalized for attempting to make the best decision for themselves and the fetus – what’s the point of carrying to term when you are working 70 hrs/week and know you won’t be able to give the fetus the healthy pregnancy it deserves? I’m sure you know all women and are the perfect JUDGE for them. No wait, I’m sure the GOVERNMENT is the perfect JUDGE. They are so good at everything else after all.

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      • JohnLutherBarnhart

        @djt@Bkwmm Again, I don’t think any state will force women to die rather than have an abortion. I think that the mother’s right to life trumps the fetus’, but the mother’s right to liberty does not.

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    • @JohnLutherBarnhart Abortion should not be legalized for the purpose of the very, very few cases of a mother’s medical crisis…any more than we should eliminate the speed limit because of the slight possibility of needing to break it to get to a hospital quickly.

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  18. JohnLutherBarnhart

    A newborn baby, umbilical cord cut or not, is not any more capable of self determination than an 8 month gestational fetus. At what point does someone have self determination? My children have to eat their vegetables, like it or not. That is a direct limit to their liberty.

    What about the mental challanged? Are they capable of self determination? Don’t they have natural rights? What about those with Alzheimer’s? My sister has early stages of this. Eventually, she may not even know her own name. Should we just kill her then, because she certainly isn’t capable of self determination.

    Liberty (self determination) is ONE right. Maybe a fetus doesn’t have liberty, but it does have LIFE. Life is a separate right from liberty, and it trumps liberty.

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    • @JohnLutherBarnhart The first 2 days of a baby’s life in utero are spent in the oviduct with no physical attachment to his mother. During this time, the zygote is nourished by the carbohydrates with which he is encapsulated. A 2 day-old zygote can live outside of his mother in a laboratory (without an umbilical cord). An eight week-old fetus is attached to his mother’s uterine wall and is dependent upon her for nutrition until parturition, at which time he certainly will not survive independently for let’s say…at least 2 years. He may very well become completely dependent again upon another individual at 80 years of age, and sooner if he suffers a severe disability. One’s degree of dependency does not determine his right to life.

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    • JohnLutherBarnhart

      -> Guest_not guest : So it is OK to kill a baby, as long as the umbilical cord isn’t cut?! That is truly evil. And what about conjoined twins? They do not have biological independence.

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    • JohnLutherBarnhart

      But you had said “The baby is endowed with natural rights once the umbilical is cut.” So now you don’t mean that? You didn’t say “once it has left the birth canal”. If a baby doesn’t have natural rights before the umbilical cord is cut, then why is it not OK to kill it?

      And the point with conjoined twins is that they are linked to each other, not a parent. That link limits their individual liberties. If one twin could survive a separation procedure, but the other could not, the viable one would not be allowed to kill the other. He doesn’t have that liberty.

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  19. @guest

    Hey let’s not forget to OUTLAW menstruation while we are at it because every egg has potential to be a God fearing tithing Church goer…Be Catholic have MANY children all so they can go to church and tithe right? I mean in the end it’s all about money right? What was it Jesus said? “Money is the ROOT of all evil!” come on tell me I’m wrong money is just something value…true or false?

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