Protect All Human Life




The heated debate about abortion is filled with emotional arguments that usually center on considerations such as sexual morality, religious beliefs, women’s rights, or purely on pragmatic reasons: if abortion were made illegal it would still take place – under unsanitary conditions that would endanger additional lives.

However, a rational evaluation of abortion must be built upon one single question: When exactly does human life begin? At conception, at birth or somewhere in between?

Not even the most radical feminist would find it okay to tear apart a recently-born baby just because it is not wanted by its mother. All other considerations aside, the only reason many individuals can support abortion with a good conscience is because they believe it’s not murder… and that unborn babies do not count as human beings.

Ron Paul has delivered more than 4,000 babies. He believes that human life starts at conception, and that casual elimination of the unborn leads to a careless attitude towards all life.

Recalling his personal observation of a late-term abortion performed by one of his instructors during his medical residency, Ron Paul stated, “It was pretty dramatic for me to see a two-and-a-half-pound baby taken out crying and breathing and put in a bucket.”

In an Oct. 27, 1999 speech to Congress, Ron Paul said:

“I am strongly pro-life. I think one of the most disastrous rulings of this century was Roe versus Wade. I do believe in the slippery slope theory. I believe that if people are careless and casual about life at the beginning of life, we will be careless and casual about life at the end. Abortion leads to euthanasia. I believe that.”

During a May 15, 2007, appearance on the Fox News talk show Hannity and Colmes, Ron Paul argued that his pro-life position was consistent with his libertarian values, asking, “If you can’t protect life then how can you protect liberty?” Additionally, Ron Paul said that since he believes libertarians support non-aggression, libertarians should oppose abortion because abortion is “an act of aggression” against a fetus.

At the GOP Values Voter Presidential Debate on Sep 17, 2007, Ron Paul was asked what he will do to restore legal protection to the unborn:

“As an O.B. doctor of thirty years, and having delivered 4,000 babies, I can assure you life begins at conception. I am legally responsible for the unborn, no matter what I do, so there’s a legal life there. The unborn has inheritance rights, and if there’s an injury or a killing, there is a legal entity. There is no doubt about it.”

At the GOP YouTube debate in St. Petersburg, Florida, on Nov 28, 2007, Ron Paul was asked what a woman would be charged with if abortion becomes illegal and she obtains an abortion anyway:

“The first thing we have to do is get the federal government out of it. We don’t need a federal abortion police. That’s the last thing that we need. There has to be a criminal penalty for the person that’s committing that crime. And I think that is the abortionist. As for the punishment, I don’t think that should be up to the president to decide.”

For many years, Ron Paul has been speaking up for babies’ rights. He passionately defends those who cannot speak for themselves because they haven’t been born yet.

In order to “offset the effects of Roe v. Wade”, Paul voted in favor of the federal Partial-Birth Abortion Ban Act of 2003. He has described partial birth abortion as a “barbaric procedure”.

At the same time, Ron Paul believes that the ninth and tenth amendments to the U.S. Constitution do not grant the federal government any authority to legalize or ban abortion. Instead, it is up to the individual states to prohibit abortion.

Many people feel very strongly about the issue of abortion, and once they make up their minds they rarely change their opinion. If you are undecided and/or open-minded, check out this page and this site for more information about abortion, including images and a description of medical procedures.



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  1. "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness." - Declaration of Independence

    Clearly the founding fathers accepted government defense by saying that it is "self-evident." America has this mindset that the woman is the victim instead of following the words of the founding fathers that it is the child that is the victim and the government is responsible for not defending that unborn child's rights endowed by its creator.

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    • @PaulLashomb The problem here lies within the framework that YOU believe "Creator" is based on your version of who this Creator is....you and others that think they hold some special hotline to this particular Creator, that tells you (biblically or actual voices) that you must take this nation back into the fold of the Creator of YOUR religion. This above reference is the one I notice is being used for this purpose, and used to defend an attack on numerous liberties we now have (we have lost many already under the guise of national protection), in an attempt to push the Christian agenda.

      IMO, the Constitution was created and written in such a way to protect us from personal descriptions of WHO our Creator is. Our founding father's were painfully aware of past rulers doing all kinds of atrocities to "the people" in the name of THEIR God.

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  2. @Devils Advocate
    Well, I guess a one day old newborn needs to get off his lazy bum & make himself a bottle!

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  3. Ron Paul - back off on women's rights. Those rights are of women, not you to decide.

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  4. @KirstinMcCoon I agree with this 100%.

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  5. "The Only Moral Abortion is My Abortion"

    When the Anti-Choice Choose

    By Joyce Arthur

    Abortion is a highly personal decision that many women are sure they'll never have to think about until they're suddenly faced with an unexpected pregnancy. But this can happen to anyone, including women who are strongly anti-choice. So what does an anti-choice woman do when she experiences an unwanted pregnancy herself? Often, she will grin and bear it, so to speak, but frequently, she opts for the solution she would deny to other women -- abortion.

    In the spring of 2000, I collected the following anecdotes directly from abortion doctors and other clinic staff in North America, Australia, and Europe. The stories are presented in the providers' own words, with minor editing for grammar, clarity, and brevity. Names have been omitted to protect privacy.

    "I've had several cases over the years in which the anti-abortion patient had rationalized in one way or another that her case was the only exception, but the one that really made an impression was the college senior who was the president of her campus Right-to-Life organization, meaning that she had worked very hard in that organization for several years. As I was completing her procedure, I asked what she planned to do about her high office in the RTL organization. Her response was a wide-eyed, 'You're not going to tell them, are you!?' When assured that I was not, she breathed a sigh of relief, explaining how important that position was to her and how she wouldn't want this to interfere with it." (Physician, Texas)

    "In 1990, in the Boston area, Operation Rescue and other groups were regularly blockading the clinics, and many of us went every Saturday morning for months to help women and staff get in. As a result, we knew many of the 'antis' by face. One morning, a woman who had been a regular 'sidewalk counselor' went into the clinic with a young woman who looked like she was 16-17, and obviously her daughter. When the mother came out about an hour later, I had to go up and ask her if her daughter's situation had caused her to change her mind. 'I don't expect you to understand my daughter's situation!' she angrily replied. The following Saturday, she was back, pleading with women entering the clinic not to 'murder their babies.'" (Clinic escort, Massachusetts)

    http://mypage.direct.ca/w/writer/anti-tales.html - for similar stories

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  6. If you want to make a point it would be wise to use information truthfully and not adding your own new information and leaving out inconvenient parts of information to prove your point. Just a heads up because you have some pro choice proponents on here that are all over that trash and if you want to change my mind that is not the way to do it.

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  7. @JohnLutherBarnhart that is not entirely true either the way you are describing it.

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  8. @KirstinMcCoon@Pro life Right! ABSOLUTELY! and i am pro-choice.

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  9. @Guest not guest @KirstinMcCoon
    So, have you read the article about the child who got to go home today & weighed 9.5 oz at birth & could have been legally aborted? The worlds 3rd smallest tiny baby! Only difference, her mother wanted her.

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  10. I'm pro-choice because I believe that the question of when rights begin is not a scientific issue but a moral issue subject to individual conscience, and thus choice must be protected by the standards of both individual liberty and individual privacy. Nevertheless, if a baby is breathing it's alive by any standard and once alive outside the womb has rights that must be protected.

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  11. New Planned Parenthood Report: Record Abortions Done in 2009
    by Steven Ertelt | Washington, DC | LifeNews.com | 2/23/11
    A new report the Planned Parenthood national abortion business recently released shows the embattled agency did more abortions in 2009 than it has done in any prior year. The report also shows it providing fewer pregnant women with non-abortion services.

    Planned Parenthood Federation of America recently posted on its website what it calls its service numbers for 2009. This document, dated February 2011, shows Planned Parenthood affiliates nationwide did 332,278 surgical abortions or abortions using the dangerous RU 486 abortion during in 2009.

    Planned Parenthood has been on the receiving end of significant negative publicity related to undercover videos showing its officials helping investigators posing as sex traffickers obtain abortions and STD testing for underage girls who are victims of the sex trade. The abortion business has defended itself in part by attempting to show that abortions constitute a small percentage of its overall services.

    However, the new numbers make it more clear that women who are pregnant who come to Planned Parenthood receive only abortion services rather than help and support.

    The new document the abortion organization posted shows Planned Parenthood provided prenatal services to merely 7,021 women and referred only 977 women for adoption services. These numbers were a 25 percent drop in prenatal care clients and a whopping 59 percent decline in adoption referrals from the 2,405 adoption referrals in 2008. The abortion business helped only 9,433 prenatal clients in 2008, down substantially from the 11,000 women it provided prenatal care to in 2007 — showing health care given to pregnant woman has fallen substantially over the years.

    As a result, 97.6 percent of pregnant women going to Planned Parenthood are sold abortions while less than 2.4 percent of pregnant women received non-abortion services including adoption and prenatal care. That’s up from 96.5 percent of pregnant women going to Planned Parenthood getting abortions in 2008.

    “We estimate that the income from abortion accounts for 40 percent of its annual clinic income,” he said, adding that former Planned Parenthood clinics director Abby Johnson has testified repeatedly to the pressure local affiliates receive to do more abortions because Planned Parenthood makes more money from abortions than non-abortion services.

    “When all the current numbers are taken together with the revelations from PP’s own former employees,” Sedlak concluded, “it is clear that Planned Parenthood is about killing human beings in the womb for a profit. It is an absolute outrage that American taxpayers have been funding such a group and we ask all members of Congress to take steps now to end this funding.”

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    • @Bkwmm

      Try, "old report on biased pro-life newsite".

      Oh and here's the part you conveniently left out where we learn that Jim Sedlak is a bit biased:

      “Despite its protestations that abortion is only a small part of its services,” said Jim Sedlak, vice president of the pro-life group American Life League, “Planned Parenthood has increased its number of abortions for 15 straight years. During that time, it has gone from committing 9.3 percent of all abortions in the United States to committing 27.5 percent.”

      Sedlak also noted that the new Planned Parenthood report shows it now does 340 abortions for every one adoption referral and 47 abortions for every one prenatal care client. He said Planned Parenthood’s own records now show 5,320,095 surgical and medical abortions done at Planned Parenthood centers from 1970 through the end of 2009.

      Check out these more recent reports:

      http://www.lifenews.com/2011/09/20/planned-parenthood-38-4-of-its-income-comes-from-abortions/

      http://www.lifenews.com/2012/01/05/planned-parenthood-51-of-its-income-comes-from-abortions/

      I like how they got 38.4% but then decided it was 51%. The site you got yoru report from

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  12. The Associate Press today reported that in Los Angeles “One of the world’s smallest surviving babies was discharged Friday from the hospital where she spent nearly five months in an incubator — but not before getting the Hollywood treatment.” This tiny person was born at 9 1/2 ounces, less than a can of soda. “Wearing a pink knit hat and wrapped in a pink princess blanket, Melinda Star Guido was greeted by a mob of television cameras and news photographers outside the Los Angeles County-USC Medical Center.” The world is celebrating the survival of the second smallest baby ever born in the U.S. But not too many are asking, “What’s wrong with this picture?” This is the age at which babies are legally killed through abortion, and yet there’s festivity and wonder that this child survived. That’s like the Nazi’s celebrating because a Jew survived the horror of their concentration camp. The only reason this baby wasn’t torn limb from limb while in the womb, was because her mother wanted her to live. Had she seen her as an inconvenience, a mere signing of a form, and Melinda would have been tossed in the trash, and not cradled in an incubator. Please, help us to change hearts and minds about the horror of legalized abortion. See 180movie.com then pass it on.

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    • @Bkwmm

      Oh lol... yes yes! You want to use Ray Comfort's 180 Movie to support Ron Paul?! Sweet! Ray Comfort is a religious zealot. By all means, pile it on. Religious zealotry has NO PLACE in our secular republic.

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      • @DarrellRoss
        I find it sad the things you choose to ignore. Very sad. I sense a bit of defeat in that. And maybe a hint of bitterness. Sad life I deed.

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        • @Bkwmm@DarrellRoss HAHA quit projecting BKwmm, just because someone believes different then you, doesn't make them sad and depressed, Educate yourself if you are able, there are allot of different beliefs and lack of beliefs and people are quite capable of happy lives with all of them.

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        • @Bkwmm

          Wait, are you saying you the like religious zealotry? Would you prefer we lived in a theocracy? I think there are a few Christian theocracies left - they don't have very good freedoms since you can get imprisoned for blaspheming. Religious extremism FTL!

          Oh and in case you had not noticed, your values are not my values. Get over it.

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      • JohnLutherBarnhart

        @DarrellRoss@Bkwmm "Religious zealotry has NO PLACE in our secular republic." Then why is it protected by the first amendment?

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        • @JohnLutherBarnhart@DarrellRoss@Bkwmm Freedom of Religion doesn't equate to allowing theocratic rule thank you

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        • @vampyreshadow @JohnLutherBarnhart @DarrellRoss
          Do you even get that this article is about a child who could have been legally aborted but is surviving outside of the mother's womb? Ray whoever did not write the story, but is using it to prove a point. A very good one. There are many I disagree with on some things but not others. This was what I was referencing to when you ignore the main idea & focus on something else. That's called grasping for straws! Do I believe Christianity belongs in government? A true Christian doesn't turn off his/her belief system when they go to work, thank God! You can always tell who they are, & I can assure you, they are the ones everyone trusts & goes to for advice. They have a contentment & wisdom about them that draws you near. My atheist parents never had that. This country was founded on Christian principles & clearly considered a Christian nation. The value of human life is at the core. The ruler of this world may win in the short-term, but God declares ultimate victory. You stand for nothingness, no value. How can a female baby be of no value, but a woman is. You cant have the woman without the baby! Again, very sad.

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        • @Bkwmm@JohnLutherBarnhart@DarrellRoss So BK, your point? Less then 10 Percent of the under one pound premies survive, most of them suffer serious medical issues, and allot do not make it to adult hood through that, are you suggesting delivering more at that early?

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        • @vampyreshadow @JohnLutherBarnhart @DarrellRoss
          WHY would I suggest that? Again, stick to the point! I care for my adult brother. He is extremely dependent & needs full-time care. Are you suggesting I abort him?

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        • @Bkwmm@JohnLutherBarnhart@DarrellRoss I am sticking to the point, and you chose to take care of your brother, many stick them in homes, and honestly having been in the homes I believe many of them need humanely put to sleep, see there is a difference between you and I, I do not believe any life is better then no life at all. I already have asked my family that if I get that way to kill me, as has my dad.

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        • @Bkwmm@JohnLutherBarnhart@DarrellRoss Honestly BK, I do not bother responding to most your crap because your type I have 0 respect for, I am raising 4 pro choice daughters, and if they make that choice I will help them, actually would help them with what ever they choose. But you would tell my children that even if they were raped they would have to carry to term..... I find that revolting,

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        • @JohnLutherBarnhart@DarrellRoss@Bkwmm Are you serious? You do know don't you why this was put in our Constitution and how many people were persecuted, tortured and put to death for not following the religious beliefs of others throughout history? This means we are FREE from your religious choices.

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        • @Bkwmm@vampyreshadow@JohnLutherBarnhart@DarrellRoss This is really disturbing, Bkwmm. We are Constitutionally protected to freedom of religion. This attitude does not show wisdom, kindness, nor contentment. You are blind to your own rage toward all that are unlike you.

          Christian fanatic = Christian Jihad

          Christianism is an ideology, politics, an ism. The distinction between Christian and Christianist echoes the distinction we make between Muslim and Islamist. Muslims are those who follow Islam. Islamists are those who want to wield Islam as a political force and conflate state and mosque.

          Read more: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1191826,00.html#ixzz1kALEja4o

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    • @Bkwmm As for Ray Comfort, PUHLEASE that's like asking for a real Documentary from Michael Moore. I am not sure, Ray Comfort might be worse, hes a YEC (Young earth Creationist) and someone who believes satan planted dinosaur bones to create doubt of god :P In a nutshell (Ironic saying this about a nut) Ray Comfort denies science while using advances that science gives us, Quit quoting biased sources, it does nothing to further your case (That is like Quoting Life News) actually want real statistics Gutmacher institute is the Best, its quoted by Pro life and pro choice despite that they are pro choice, they just do the facts without a slant.

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    • @Bkwmm You really need to understand why women have abortions if you are going to speak to this subject. Constantly saying women see it is an inconvenience does not even begin to describe a woman's plight regarding abortion and medicine surrounding her reproductive health.

      On another note do you know how far along the mother was when she was born?

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      • @AsL@Bkwmm She was 24 weeks which is actually the point which is considered viable, after which abortions aren't even legal :P but I don't really care to Argue or debate with BK

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      • @AsL@Bkwmm Well aren't legal unless the mother and fetus are both in an extreme life threatening situation

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  13. The following is a list of useful abortion statistics as well as some facts on abortifacients. All abortion numbers are derived from pro-abortion sources courtesy of The Alan Guttmacher Institute and Planned Parenthood's Family Planning Perspectives.

    UNITED STATES

    Number of abortions per year: 1.37 Million (1996)
    Number of abortions per day: Approximately 3,700

    Who's having abortions (age)?
    52% of women obtaining abortions in the U.S. are younger than 25: Women aged 20-24 obtain 32% of all abortions; Teenagers obtain 20% and girls under 15 account for 1.2%.

    Who's having abortions (race)?
    While white women obtain 60% of all abortions, their abortion rate is well below that of minority women. Black women are more than 3 times as likely as white women to have an abortion, and Hispanic women are roughly 2 times as likely.

    Who's having abortions (marital status)?
    64.4% of all abortions are performed on never-married women; Married women account for 18.4% of all abortions and divorced women obtain 9.4%.

    Who's having abortions (religion)?
    Women identifying themselves as Protestants obtain 37.4% of all abortions in the U.S.; Catholic women account for 31.3%, Jewish women account for 1.3%, and women with no religious affiliation obtain 23.7% of all abortions. 18% of all abortions are performed on women who identify themselves as "Born-again/Evangelical".

    Who's having abortions (income)?
    Women with family incomes less than $15,000 obtain 28.7% of all abortions; Women with family incomes between $15,000 and $29,999 obtain 19.5%; Women with family incomes between $30,000 and $59,999 obtain 38.0%; Women with family incomes over $60,000 obtain 13.8%.

    Why women have abortions
    1% of all abortions occur because of rape or incest; 6% of abortions occur because of potential health problems regarding either the mother or child, and 93% of all abortions occur for social reasons (i.e. the child is unwanted or inconvenient).

    At what gestational ages are abortions performed:
    52% of all abortions occur before the 9th week of pregnancy, 25% happen between the 9th & 10th week, 12% happen between the 11th and 12th week, 6% happen between the 13th & 15th week, 4% happen between the 16th & 20th week, and 1% of all abortions (16,450/yr.) happen after the 20th week of pregnancy.

    Likelihood of abortion:
    An estimated 43% of all women will have at least 1 abortion by the time they are 45 years old. 47% of all abortions are performed on women who have had at least one previous abortion.

    Abortion coverage:
    48% of all abortion facilities provide services after the 12th week of pregnancy. 9 in 10 managed care plans routinely cover abortion or provide limited coverage. About 14% of all abortions in the United States are paid for with public funds, virtually all of which are state funds. 16 states (CA, CT, HI, ED, IL, MA , MD, MD, MN, MT, NJ, NM, NY, OR, VT, WA and WV) pay for abortions for some poor women.

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  14. WRONG Dude! All citizens, only of this country, are spoken for in the first sentence of the constitution with the word "POSTERITY" read the sentence and see where it included you and where it may include everyone else. Are you sugesting that Dr. Paul believes that citizenship includes only those borne, or are those your words? Remember that all people of the world are born free but other people do deny them further freedom. Those same people are trying to do this to us. Many women have done that to the unborne.

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  15. @you_who We make stupid choices every day. One was Roe Vs. Wade.

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  16. Precicely! In this country, the United States of America, the protection of those given statutory right have been, or were until Roe vs. Wade, protected in the very first statement of the Constitution as the 'POSTERITY' of this nation. If we had all been properly educated as to the intent of that document we would, perhaps be in a much different arena today. The abortion issue is just another way in witch the intent of the Constitution has been violated. With proper understanding of that first sentence at an early stage in life,it, would have made us understand that continued life in this country meant that you would be required to protect the unborne, the nation's posterity, to the death. The patriots did that for us and we should have done the same.

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  17. JohnLutherBarnhart

    -> guest not guest : An in utero child will fight against the abortion tools in an effort to save its life.

    And by your example, anyone not capable of defending themselves don't have a right to life? Anyone who is unconscious forfeits their right to live?

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  18. I was educated in Canada to believe this is an issue regarding a woman's right to choose. You would think then that I disagree with Ron Paul's view on abortion. I do not disagree. He is for life. I am for life. We agree.

    The only hair I might split is with his belief that the spirit occupies the embryo at conception (I believe it is later than this and occurs in the 3rd month of gestation). Regardless I am for life.

    His constant reference to the Constitution (and I wish Canadians shared this brilliant document) is a massive clue to his innate wisdom. He is a true statesman. I know this because I am a citizen and resident of Canada and Ron Paul inspires me.

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    • You are probably like some of the great people from Canada that I enjoyed visiting with and have only fond and wonderful memories of. Back packing in Algonquin, Boy Scouts at your Northern Lights Scout camp, family camping on the French River Niagra Falls, Bell Lake Lodge. The list goes on. But as of late, travel to your wonderful country has become more of a distastefull venture brought on by the new security issues we face today. I for one don't feel safer from terroist threat, and fear a greater threat from a domestic preasents. The document you refer to is in dyer straits and truly needs to be saved from it's attackers. Dr. Ron Paul may be the only hope we have to rescue it. Thank you for the words you have chosen as they may make many realize just how sacred our Constitution is. Give my love to all of your friends and family. I for one can appreciate your endorcement of Dr. Paul. Love, and thanks again. STAY SAFE.

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      • @Demsprtr A beautiful sentiment. Thank you. You are probably like some of the wonderful people from the US I have enjoyed while visiting your great country. It is a pleasant surprise to me I can experience the beauty of Americans in an online conversation. First time. You stay safe too. Hold that powerful document in your heart (where it was born) and I will do the same.

        Love, Doree

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    • @Doree

      There is no such thing as a "spirit". I mean that I don't believe in that. Might as well believe in a tooth fairy or unicorns.

      Certainly basing any law in a secular nation on a mythical belief is dangerous.

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      • @DarrellRoss Yes. You could be right and I get how you would believe this. It could be dangerous to believe in mysticism. I will consider this. Thank you DarrellRoss for responding to me. Doree

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        • @Doree

          Ron Paul has some very inspiring tendencies. He has thus far been very good at sticking to principle. His anti-abortion stance is actually quite bizarre. He claims this great belief in personal freedoms - like legalizing recreational drugs. And yet, he does not support a woman's right to choose. It's a paradox.

          He really undoes his entire "individual liberty" argument by being anti-abortion. I really think he is so on religious grounds.

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        • @DarrellRoss We are so complex us humans. I agree with you - how bizarre some of our stances can get. For me, I didn't read his anti abortion stance as being against a woman's right to choose. I read it as simply being "for life" (not even "pro life") As I said, I to am "for life". But I probably won't get the chance to have this discussion with Ron Paul :)

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        • @Doree

          This is a key difference, in my opinion, between pro-choice and anti-abortion people.

          Pro-choice people tend to want to reduce abortions through various proactive means like sex education and providing contraceptives to everyone and good reactive care like counseling for women who have an unwanted pregnancy and lots of family services for them. So while many pro-choice folks are not pro-abortion, they understand that it has to be an option for women to take. Yes some may abuse it, but criminalizing it would punish everyone for the mistakes of the few.

          With a similar vein of reasoning, many anti-abortion folks are aware that outlawing abortion would take away women's rights. But they feel that a loss of freedom by all women is a worthwhile cost for saving the fetuses.

          The pro-choice and anti-abortion stance is much easier to defend. I am pro-sex-education, pro-providing-contraceptives, and pro-women's health care. I am against criminalizing people in general. Criminalization should be a last-resort. We should exhaust all other options first.

          The in-your-face anti-choice no-abortions-at-all stance is tougher to defend. They automatically come out against women's rights. They come out in favor of bigger government -- an irony since many of the same folks like to rant about big government. They also tend to sound insincere because they are anti-sex except for procreation and anti-contraceptives. They also want to defund planned parenthood which provides services to thousands of pregnant women. Their zealotry gets them in the end.

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        • I would ask that you take ,with a grain of salt the words of Darrel Ross as this person will not honor to your beliefe of a spirit that to many is the feeling that they, have, when having done something truly wonderful or something truly terrible. I can share with you a personal experience. As a young boy I was Ordered by my dad to kill a puppy that had become a very burdensome creature, yet the puppy was oblivious to that fact. I took that puppy to the woods along with my 22 rifle, I tied him to a tree stepped back several feet, aimed and fired at his happy little body. As his eyes closed a feeling left my body and I believe that it joined his feeling [spirit] after leaving me. Spirit is the only word that I can attach to that feeling. It hurt me inside. I wonder how many women have had that same or worse loss of spirit after aborting a child. You can't undo it.

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        • @DarrellRoss An abortion could be viewed as neutral - like a gun, money or even sex. It is the intention behind the abortion (or guns, money or sex) that makes it either positive or negative (catabolic or anabolic). In other words, it can be used to heal and protect or to harm and weaken.

          Ironically, the concept of free speech is also neutral.

          I appreciate this conversation by the way.

          Doree

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        • @Demsprtr :( sorry you have that memory. I am certain you did the best you could at the time with who you were and what you knew. Forgive yourself and hold a healthy regret. I apologize if I am being too presumptuous. I only share with you what I would do with that experience and memory.

          Doree

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        • @Demsprtr that is awful.

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      • Imagin if you can that you are on your knees and a Nazi officer has a Ruger at the back of your head. How do you feel? What are you feeling? I believe that your spirit has been allowed to grow even though you were unaware if it and that you would chose to free yourself of your delema. Your juiblation or spirit would most certainly be lifted to a level beyond words if someone was to shoot that officer and save your life. I see the feeling you hold at that time as your spirit. You don't believe in that as your spirit but for lack of a better term it is what it is. Your spirit, for again, the lack of a better term, was allowed to manifest from your time of conception. Killing a fetus kills a spirit or the afore mentioned feeling.

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        • @Demsprtr

          You are ascribing the natural bodily functions when under extreme duress or joy to supernatural claims.

          Everything you have described has already been explained with various hormones the body secretes into the blood at various times.

          Oh and for the record, Nazi officers don't exist. Very poor example. You should have said, "imagine a Christian extremist is threatening to kill you because you are pro-choice". This would have been more with the times. :P

          Killing a fetus destroys a life that was forming. It may have had some ability to feel but it was likely focused quite hard on creating some organs or the heart or producing bone structure (depending on when it was aborted). Many times, the fetus doesn't even have the glands which are required to secrete the hormones which produce those feelings of intense fear or joy. If the abortion is done prior to the brain forming.

          Spirit in the supernatural sense is complete nonsense.

          If you think of spirit as in spunk or courage, well then it's spunk of courage and not spirit.

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        • @DarrellRoss BlA,Bla,Bla and more.

          Heartless person, science based logic that serves no human cause, these so called secreations are what seperate us from snakes or lizards. I am just curious to know if you are an abortion doctor as that would explain your callous attitude for the unborne. As for Nazis, we still have them in operating rooms, and abortion clinics all over this nation. After preforming a few abortions it becomes easier. After shooting a few people in the back of the head it becomes easier. Protecting the unborn is what many a soidier has done for those at home and perhaps you, your father and your mother were some of those people. Your philosophy dictates, kill it before it can demonsrate it's will to live or see the light of day. No thanks don't want that. As posted for lack of a "BETTER" word and spunk or courage don't get it.

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        • @Demsprtr

          Oh I am sorry you don't like science? Tough. It's still true.

          I am pro-women's rights. I am pro-sex-education. I am pro-free-contraceptives for all. I am for providing women with the best health care possible. I am for not criminalizing women based on a supernatural belief.

          And quit comparing people to Nazi's. It is infantile. I invoke Godwin's Law.

          You lack valid arguments so you are reduced to ad-hominem attacks and calling people Nazis. Great. Glad to see your true colors fly.

          Good riddance.

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        • @DarrellRoss@Demsprtr The solution to a problem cannot be found within the energy that created it.

          There is truth to be found in what each of you has been saying. There is no truth found in attack phrases or put-downs.

          Peace is the natural state when truth prevails. War is the absence of Peace (and truth).

          Please speak kindly to one another. Seek to understand how "this person" could see things the way they do.

          It won't hurt you to do this.

          I promise :)

          Doree

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        • @Doree

          I quite understand why they see things the way they do. I have supplied ways they could help reduce the number of abortions which are statistically proven to help.

          Generally, they don't care. They just want to push their control on the rest of the population. The vast majority of anti-choice people - those that feel that eliminating the woman's right is worth the cost - are anti-abortion on religious grounds.

          @Demsprtr

          Did I describe your viewpoint correctly? You feel that the fetus is alive (I agree) and that women should not get to choose to abort it because you claim to value "all life" over freedoms.

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        • @DarrellRoss@Demsprtr DarrellRoss, I guess I would see them as "doing their job" however they choose to define it. How on earth would we define ourselves without the diversity of people to disagree with? Admit it - you both NEED each other and that is a good thing. All hair splitting aside, would you rather be happy or right? Arguing online will not improve the situation is all I'm saying. What do you agree on? Seems you are both "for life". That's a start isn't it?

          Doree

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        • @DarrellRoss@Doree@Demsprtr Worst part, is they care little bout what happens afterwards, unwanted children aren't fairing well in the world as it is, statistics of molestation and abuse in Foster care speaks volumes, the amount of prisoners that come from Broken Dysfunctional homes and the foster system does as well, saddest states are our institutional raised mentally handicapped ones. they face all the issues of foster care, yet some can never age out and have a chance of escape.

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        • @DarrellRoss@Demsprtr I'm sorry DarrellRoss I forgot to mention you have supplied ways to reduce the number of abortions. Ways that have been proven to help. I meant to say that.

          Doree

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        • JohnLutherBarnhart

          @DarrellRoss@Demsprtr The brain begins forming at 3 weeks gestation. That's before a woman may even know she is pregnant.

          Killing a fetus destroys a life. That life is "forming" from conception to adulthood, and beyond. A newborn child's bones aren't even done being formed when they are born. An infant has 350 bones. These bones fuse as the child develops. An adult only has 206 bones.

          If there is no spirit, then there is only science. Scientifically, every human life began at conception.

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        • JohnLutherBarnhart

          @DarrellRoss@Demsprtr Yes, we have certainly proven Godwin's Law here, haven't we!

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        • @DarrellRoss@Doree Inspite of all or any methods of birth control, and we know that many are as a result of careless intervention, a young woman becomes pregnant with a healthy offspring. Your program to stop this, in this case, would see an abortion presented to this young woman as a liberty she has that will cause her to deny the new person the same benifits she herself is intitled to. You would risk her sanity and a lifelong guilt of having killed her own baby? You would have her risk these things?

          I would exhost all effort to save that baby. I would allow compassion and encouragement to try to dictate a healthy loving conclusion to the birth. I would never offer an abortion as a fix to the problem, ever. Why would you offer an abortion over love and compassion in this case? If many young people were never aware of abortions the chances are fewer would get pregnant.

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        • @Doree@DarrellRoss@Demsprtr From what I have seen pro-choice people are not uncomfortable with an INDIVIDUAL being anti-abortion. What they are uncomfortable with is the pro-life attempt to push their personal view in to a law that prohibits personal choice.

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        • @Doree

          I am not sure I agree with you. I do not need evil to understand what I think of as good. I have my morals based on secular humanism.

          The idea that I must have a sparring partner to understand my own position is incorrect in my opinion. I refuse to admit that I need anti-choice, misogynists in my life. I feel that people who would like to criminalize women instead of allowing abortions are misogynists. When told they could reduce abortions by using statistically proven methods like better access to contraception, they change the topic but they do not concede the point even though the data is overwhelmingly in favor of it. When told they could reduce abortions by providing comprehensive sex education, they bring up incredibly old and very soundly disproved myths about how teaching kids about sex makes them more curious.

          These people are in a permanent state of denial. They see what they want to see. My posts on here "discussing" it with them are more for the benefit of other people who happen by. I maintain no illusion that my explanations will get through to them in any way. It is surprising when someone like @JohnLutherBarnhart is able to take a point and change tack. I like that. @Bkwmm and @Demsprtr are stuck in the same modes they have been in the whole time. Their arguments are completely cliche and predictable.

          I am here to represent the rational pro-choice people. I will likely hang around a bit more. Eventually I will tire of the "broken record" bit.

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    • @Doree He is not following the constitution when he takes a women's right away or believes states should be able to this. The women should never be a slave of the state because she happened to be born with a uterus. This is sexist. If women have access to contraception and early term abortion then there will be fewer 2nd trimester abortions. most states have very strict guidelines for 3rd term and I believe most of those pregnancies to be planned and wanted and not just an "inconvenience" as so many pro lifers like to call them. Which by the way is total propaganda and if they were as Christian as they report they might try to understand why they happen in the first place in an effort to promote less of them. Seems many of our Christian friends are the first to judge especially when the person they want to judge happens to have a uterus.

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      • @AsL Oh, Christians Judging, What would the bible say..... Wait I know, the bible says its a sin to Judge others

        Matthew 7 “Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

        3 “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4 How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.

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      • @AsL@Doree Then again the Apologists will site verses that say its Ok for the Christians to Judge others, the bible, interpreted to fit what ever suits the "true believer" Think the One "True" God could be a bit less contradictory and a bit clearer since he hasn't gotten off his arse to actually show us he exists. :P

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        • @vampyreshadow Your recovery is absolutely just short of a miracle. I had all but given you up for dead. Those drugs the doctors gave to you by the grace of our government and FDA have done wonders. You have recovered and are back with a vengence.

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      • @AsL@Doree Often what a Christian does and says are two different things...think Newt Gingrich. They are forgiven and cleansed...pppphhhhhttt!

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  19. JohnLutherBarnhart

    -> Guest not guest: This scenario would have to be applied also to a woman who wanted to give birth. If she died during delivery, the baby is not a murderer. Same would be true if abortion was not legal. The desire of the mother to give birth or not would have no bearing on the guilt of the child as a murderer.

    What about the woman who dies from complications of an abortion? Is the doctor the murderer? She certainly didn't choose to die.

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  20. @Pro life So then, the baby in the bucket who was crying out for help, thereby attempting the only act it was capable of for survival, surely it deserves to have "the natural right to go on living", right?

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