Ron Paul on the Issues:

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  • David/TS, and everyone else fed up with purported solutions on the cheap, for the sheep.

    Jon Stewart and Stephen Colbert are the people to talk too for gaining exposure.

    Anyone over there close to these guys, or willing to try to establish contact??


    • TruthSeeker

      Hi Jake,

      Thanks for all the material you have been forwarding to us. Great and original. I am still trying to digest it all. I have been all along thinking out of the box and not adopting any specific model. I do agree with you guys on everything so far, but allow me please some more time to refine my take on it. I found the Hayek article very intriguing and provocative. If Hayek’s views represent the AE model which goes straight against our Constitution and what RP himself is trying to accomplish on this forum, how in hell those guys of the AE model still proclaim that they are supporting RP? Hayek’s views promote the privatization of the money business and the banking hegemony over our system of government. So if that represents the AE model, are we expected to convert over to the AE when the essence of our movement is restoring the Constitutional authority of Congress (government) to the exclusive privilege of creating and managing money? I found that piece of info appalling and shocking especially for some contra views on this forum which continue to boast on the AE model as our ultimate solution! How could it be when it is in total disagreement of the Constitution? And after all, we are the bad guys who are trying to establish some Gestapo regime that overrides our Constitution! Look, we are not Americans without the Constitution in as much as a mathematician is not one without the axioms of the real line numbers axioms! How offensive that is to come to this forum with total disregard to our Constitution and still claim that the AE model is the savior? How outrageous to characterize us as some Netherlands movement that is heading to Serfdom?

      Anyway Jake, I am not in a hurry for the needed exposure and there are many people who better qualify to do that anyway. What I am trying to do on this forum and I speak only for myself is to fascilitate the thinking process and once everything is set in motion for some good crowd, my job is pretty much finished. I have no political ambitions out of the whole deal. My world is too small and captivating in terms of what I like to do in life. I have my family and personal life that I would not trade for anything else in this world and the last of my plans is to go public, but I really appreciate your faith in me and David and others who seem to win your respect. That means everything. Thanks again my friend.

      • David

        Hi Guys;

        Jake, wonderful post, again detailing the problems and solutions accurately and in detail as well. TS, Your response is essentially expressing the full extent of my views on the matter as well.

        Here is what i think. First of all, whatever does get established won’t be the entire extent of one persons plan, and will probably incorporate many ideas from many people. As long as we can simply get them all understanding the two essential elements to a functioning economy, that it has to be done without banks and with a currency which can always be matched to the total capacity of the population to generate useful trade, it will work and can be kept working, and is capable of allowing the population to exchange the full extent of the useful benefits which they are capable of creating.

        The system will not be perfect and cannot be perfect, because nothing ever is, but as long as we allow enough flexibility to adjust as necessary and keep it working for ourselves then it can and will. In terms of MPE, i like what i’ve seen so far very much, and really enjoyed the phone conversation i had with Mike the other day as well. That Mike and his models will be involved in the solution is already a given, he has been hired as a consultant by most of the US Administrations thus far, beginning with the Reagan administration in the 1980’s, and since, he is well known in our political and academic circles, and is the one they hire when they want someone to accurately predict economic consequences, so guess who is the first person who will be contacted when the people force the action we need in order to actually begin constructing a working and functioning system ? The one who has already been thinking outside the box toward this end, and the one they already know, Mike. Interesting how they rely on Mike and his math instead of the theory and philosophy of those like Citizen and Daniels to make accurate predictions of the consequences of our current system of theft and fraud.

        In terms of MPE itself, what i see is a very good and functional model toward trying to maintain an accurate circulation of currency in accordance with what it is designed to pay for. It’s the best method i’ve seen toward accomplishing such a calculation thus far, but it is not perfect as nothing can be, just a very good, and functional method of trying to approximate something which is not entirely within our control. Case in point, i have an old 1989 Chevy Silverado pickup sitting in my driveway, the only major thing i have ever done to it is put a new transmission in several years ago, it runs like clockwork, the oil pressure is still all the way over on the right side of the gauge. Its a comfortable ride, still in great condition and i have absolutely no reason to go shopping for another truck for as long as this is the case. Hence it is still worth something regardless of the fact that it has long passed the full extent of its technical depreciation. The name in and of itself makes it un-presentable to the public, as simply the inclusion of the word perfect will automatically provoke an “and pigs will fly” response and will invalidate the considerable validity that the model entails by stopping them from investigating it further. Lol i actually did see a pig fly at one point and i’ll have to tell you guys about it some time too, is a long story but the circumstances are absolutely hilarious Lol 🙂 Thirdly, Christine made a post in response to this one on one of the other blogs, and states that if this is to have any chance of gaining acceptance among the population it needs to be brought down to a level that they can understand, in other words brought way down from Mike’s technical level to their general level of understanding. Thirdly i think the model needs to be developed / described further so that it can account for more than just injecting currency through loans to the population. I’m sure Mike has already given thought to and accounted for many more things but all i see at this point is this one demonstration. Case in point i never loan money for anything i need but simply earn it first and then go out and pay cash for it so i can just have it and not have to mess with payments. Part of this is simply due to the fact that i will not deal with banks, but as much so for convenience as well, i.e. buy and forget. This needs to be illustrated and accounted for as well, how the necessary capital will be put into circulation without necessitating a loan to create it. What also needs to be taken into account is the enormous prosperity and economic growth which will be generated simply by having the ability to keep a means of trade in circulation in order to pay for the full extent of what we can do. As i’ve roughly estimated before we are looking at a standard of living instantly and immediately 6 X what it has ever been in the past, simply with the production capacity we have had in the past and without 5/6ths of it being consumed by banks and interest. Then since i’d estimate this to have been restricted to about 1/5th of what our current production capabilities would actually be due to lack of purchasing power, we can expect this to multiply again X 5 within a very short time as those capabilities are quickly developed to their actual potential, which gives is a total factor of 30. After this we are looking at extremely rapid and exponential economic growth as well given the incentive of the population to further develop their production capacity given the guarantee that the purchasing power will be there to buy it, right up until the point where more of a certain item is being produced than people can actually use, at which point the production will simply switch over to other things where this is not yet the case. We also have many engaged in services such as health care, etc, where their services provide benefit to the population but do not constitute a product or service of tangible value against which to balance out the necessary injection of the currency.

        All of these things and more will at some point have to be specifically addressed accounted for and demonstrated in some way shape or form, and Mike has probably already done much of that but we need to see it.

        Alternately, as TS and myself have been discussing before, this can be brought down to a very simple trial and error method as well, were currency is simply carefully injected by whatever means until we see a small amount of long term inflation and then stabilizing any increase of that injection until production catches up and eliminates it before proceeding with any additional increase. One thing is guaranteed, that as the useful production of the population is allowed to grow independently, they will always be producing more instead of less and barring some natural disaster of massive proportion the single and only concern will be determining the additional currency needed to match that capacity and not the other way around. This dividend would seem to be something which is not owing to anyone or representing any form of debt but which is simply needed to compensate enable economic growth. It could be calculated and injected via some formula like MPE, or it could be injected by equal distribution among the population as proposed by CH Douglas and others. TS has expressed concerns about using it to provide for those actually in need of it first, and until such a point as this dividend becomes large enough to do that for everyone, above and beyond what everyone can earn on an equal basis i would have absolutely no problem in giving this priority as well, but it won’t take long before it reaches that point, and once it does it would be good if it could be done on the fundamental tenet of equality incorporated in our declaration of independence. Again, this injection applies and is necessary for two reasons, in order to compensate for the difference between wages and the actual value of production and must be created at no cost to anyone in order to make up the difference to allow the population to buy up the full value of what they can produce. If everyone were in business independently exchanging their production and services at their full value, we no longer need this component of it, but we still need an injection to compensate for the increased production capacity and economic growth they generate, again at no cost to anyone in order to compensate for the growth to allow the population to buy up the full value of what they can produce. MPE could be incorporated in latter as well in figuring out how to balance that injection specifically against the specific increases in production capacity generated, but might be difficult to apply in terms of the former, i don’t know. Lastly, remember my suggestion toward incorporating competing currencies in the system as a store of wealth. We don’t need to do this in order to make the system function, but this would make a functional solution acceptable to absolutely everyone, except for a banker who would want to restrict us to hard currencies to consume our wealth, in that it would give anyone who considered them a secure store of wealth a chance to use them as such. As long as its done without banks, no problems, and they could actually help stabilize the primary means of trade in that it wouldn’t be constantly withdrawn from circulation for savings and then re-injected at random and could actually stay there to facilitate trade. Nothing wrong with having some beautiful gold thousand dollar coins in addition to some pretty silver 20 dollar coins being minted by congress in addition to the sound and functional standard currency which is based on the wealth it is designed to trade for, a lot of people would like that, and this will eliminate any objection from anyone but a banker who would wish that too. We can even drop a zero off the currencies when exchanged for the current fiat debt and make prices as they were when we were kids, some people might like that too and it would have absolutely no effect on the function, i charge 1/10th as many dollars for what i sell and i can buy 10X as much with what i’m paid, no difference, so give people what they want and it all can and will work under the two essential conditions.

        Another consideration is the funding of government, and i think it would be fantastic if through all of this taxation could be eliminated as well as once private interest is no longer a factor this is the only form of involuntary servitude left. I think we all agree that we need to restrict government to providing only the public services which the population themselves deems absolutely essential, and it is up to the population to decide what these are going to be, TS has expressed some very legitimate concerns about health care, not in terms of some ludicrous bullshit like Obama changing nothing but forcing everyone to pay insurance companies and make them richer, but simply in terms of something like this being based on a profit motive in the first place. That seems about as counterproductive as things could be. Were the system simply consisting of individual doctors providing services to their patients it probably still wouldn’t be a problem but with the giant bank sponsored medical corporations operating strictly on greed and a profit motive it certainly is. This is why i have managed to cure cancer twice personally, very simply, easily, effectively and i expect permanently, without any damage to anything but the cancer and know many other people who have done the same, while medicine continues to stick to the burn down the house to put out a fire in the kitchen approach, where the propagandized survival rate is dismal and the actual rate based on the total statistics is infinitesimal. They simply cannot make money with something that only consists of simple pills and injections. Also why so many treatment processes end up creating half a dozen more problems for the ones they cure as well. We have to stop being stupid, believing what we are told and actually think toward making things work, and this applies across the board. We need to think about giving the population the ability to vote on things like this specifically, as opposed to electing representatives and parties to act on their behalf in general and this needs to be applied toward the management of their means of trade as well. As many of us have said before, we have several good things we can learn from Switzerland and this is one of them.

        In any event, with what will be needed in order to compensate for economic growth, there will be more than enough to account for any public services that the population deems necessary to themselves, and if Government is given the unbridled ability to simply spend the full extent of this into circulation the end result will be more corruption and more corporate control of government trying to be established in order to gain control of this enormous injection for themselves so were right back where we started, where unnatural trade is generated in order to redistribute wealth into the hands of a few simply because they already have some. I’ve suggested Per: Franklin, that interest on loans of the public currency could be tolerated in one form, where the full extent of the currency injections would go directly into the hands of the people themselves and then what was needed to fund our public services come back to government from them through loans of the public currency which members of the population needed. Mike may want to call this a fee on use instead of interest, but it would be the people benefiting from the loans who provided these costs, so in a manner it would be far as some benefit is provided in return for something voluntarily agreed to, and this currency would be immediately injected into circulation to fund public services where it can continue to facilitate trade instead of it being accumulated to buy power. I definitely want to hear what mike has to say on this as well, as he might have an even better and more functional solution than anyone else has thought of so far, but whatever it is, it has put safeguards in place to enable the population to maintain control over their own Government and currency and eliminate any possibility of them being usurped once again by private interests. Whatever is done, it must be done with consideration toward the absolute freedom of each individual in the population to manage their own life and contribute their own efforts in whatever manner each of them chooses as an individual, and the single and only purpose of the public means of trade or economic system is to simply provide them with the single and only public service which they need to exchange these efforts with each other independently. Anything else is defeating the purpose.

        Anyway, these are some of the things which need to be considered, and i think i’ve included most of what i can think of here. All of it can be accomplished by applying the two simple common sense principles which we all agree on that are essential to being able to accomplish something, and the rest i think can be accomplished by establishing just a few simple common sense methods of operation in order to make the system manageable and functional toward the freedom and benefit of the people it is intended to serve, and in the process eliminating possibilities for it to be once again corrupted against their interests as well, one of the keys to which will be making it simple enough for every one of them to understand and then putting it entirely under their control through their vote. Again, easily accomplished if everyone simply thinks toward this end.

        In terms of MPE’s proposed constitutional amendment, what i see in it, is the basis of legal code in order to enforce the retention of the currency and its management by the people, i see the basis of the rules and regulations to which the treasury would be subject in creating and managing the currency on our behalf. In terms of a constitutional amendment itself, if we can condense to a few essential words and principles what we need in order to keep the system functioning and secure it from corruption, while leaving as much flexibility as possible to adjust for changing conditions and allow the system to continue to function, we will have the basis for an amendment. Expect TS would be extremely useful in doing this as well. Example, secure to Congress the “exclusive power” To coin/create Money, regulate the Value thereof, along with the “Exclusive” right to its loan and management right to the point where it is injected directly into the hands of the population to facilitate private trade. Just as stated in our declaration and demand.

        In terms or what we need to do now, that is very simple. Simply motivate and organize the population to destroy the power that would prevent us from doing anything in the first place so that something can be done. Our Declaration and Demand will pose the necessary threat, create the fear and provide motivation for those in our political establishment to start thinking about doing this on their own before facing the consequences of us forcing any further action against them, it will provide them with the basic essentials and ideas which they need to accomplish on our behalf, and hopefully provide enough leverage for those who would, but have always been prevented from doing anything, to do something. Maybe this might be all we need to do, provided that everyone puts all of the effort they can into this and we can flood our senate and congressional offices with this en masse over the next 6 months. What is it, they consider 1 letter, call or email to represent 10,000 votes ? we need to get 100,000,000 of these demands in from 100,000,000 different people and if promoted right its entirely possible too. We need to consider basic human psychology in doing this as well. People will not go looking for solutions especially if their not already thinking of what they might be, and people are lazy. These things have to be put in their inboxes through direct email forwards where they can see them, read, act on them forward them on, quickly, simply and easily and be done with it, with as little effort as possible. This makes it easy for them and puts it in front of their faces without them having to find it where most won’t. This is what has been working so far too and its those of us forwarding the discussions on here into circulation which have motivated the mass public awakening and understanding which we have today. This is also why vast majority have no clue about MPE and that such a thing even exists, nor have they any clue about Zarlenga nor Brown nor any of the others simply because they are buried among billions of other things on the internet and most people would not even know what to look for even if they tried in order to find them. In their Inboxes, in front of their faces, where they can read, understand, consider and act, that is what will work. This is also accomplished at no cost to anyone, takes no money to accomplish, does not need any form of organization except for individual citizens who individually agree with the solutions and are willing to provide their own individual time and effort towards promoting them, it can’t be stopped and it can’t be corrupted for those very reasons. Of the people, for the people, by the people.

        Failing the success of the threat, then the next step is trying to motivate a mass economic revolt where people would simply stop paying all bank payments and taxes and simply bring about the collapse the system by force through simple lack of participation. I prepared a method of doing this some time ago where some could start this and withold bank payments for just long enough to not risk foreclosure, and do this repeatedly with ever more of the population participating in the effort until enough were participating to collapse the system permanently. Guaranteed once started, the enormous turmoil generated in the banking system will create publicity and and simply get ever more participating in the effort until its accomplished, once they see it actually hurting the enemy this in and of itself will give progressively more the courage to do the same.

        Short of these two its simply allowing this to progress to armed revolution which with the current state of mind of the population it will, but there’s no reason why it has to come to this if we get things right now, and it would be best if it didn’t as well as in the resultant confusion and turmoil, we run the risk of banks once again trying to corrupt it in order to try to derail the process just as they did via. Hamilton the first time around.

        Jake, don’t worry about Mikes involvement in this either, all we need to do is motivate the public action to destroy the banks and their power, and once done, Mike will by default be involved in the subsequent solution simply because of who he is, what he had done in the past, and the people who know him. As i said, once we force them to try to work things out in our interests, he is he first one they will call in order to help them figure out how to do this, so it will be involved in and will constitute at least part of the solution. All we need to do, and our only concern now is to motivate the public action that will make this possible by destroying the power which will prevent it.

        I”m with TS on this too, ive pretty much burned myself out on this issue, and ive been hanging around to support you guys and help get you going on this as best i could, and i wanted to get this Austrian thing dealt with so that it couldn’t be used as another means to try and fool the population into subjecting themselves to more of the same in a different way. That’s done now, you guys are doing great and performing well beyond my own capabilities, so i can finally relax and start moving on to other things of a more personal nature now too, keep looking for more like yourselves in order to help bring this about as well, and as long as there is someone knew to pick up the torch and carry it further once you’ve exhausted your own abilities to continue to do this, then the end result will be achieved. I can’t tell you guys how much i appreciate both of you as i can finally relax and know that this will happen independently of myself. There have been many others on here contributing toward the effort, and each and every one of them will be equally responsible for the end result, even those not posting anything and just forwarding discussions into circulation but it does take a couple of people with the drive and ability to carry the effort forward instead of letting it stagnate and you both have that.

        I have most of the emails which i have forwarded into circulation on this end since the beginning of this archived, and there is a lot of useful stuff in them which can be applied toward future use as well, so if one or both of you guys can send me an email at [email protected] I’ll get in contact with you from my regular email and forward the whole collection to you as well. Then you can archive them and use the material for whatever useful purpose it might serve. Might save you both a lot of time and effort in coming up with the same things on your own as well where you can put them into progressing forward without restating things which have already been said. TS, Mike is very interested in getting in contact with you as well, you can email him from the MPE website. In talking to him, you’ll find him to be very different from the average person, but also a man of incredible intelligence and ability, much as yourself, and i expect you two might hit it off extremely well and have a lot to contribute to each other too.

        Again, thanks guys, ever so much, and you have no idea how happy and relieved i am because of you too. Expect you’ll both experience the same once you find more like yourselves to help contribute to and continue the effort as well 🙂

        • David my man…you missed your calling!! Great post, still reading…..

          Listen, to complement this article i posted would you be willing to re-post your great comment as well by using the link below. You may need to sign up, but have a look and let me know what you think.

          I initiated this site so no worries on spam and such . I can also make you an admin if you feel for it.

          Thanks a ton for all your hard work…..i have just been too busy keeping up with inflation but i should have more time going forward.

        • David

          Hi Jack.

          & thanks, LOLOL actually my calling is that of a damn good engineer, and my only incentive in this is to simply motivate people to force the action we need to be able to make things work for ourselves so we can forget about the damn money problem and get back to doing what were supposed to where the trade for that effort can finally be enabled by money and not restricted by it and these F’ing banks.

          I suppose that since we need to actually engineer a functioning system that can do this, i might have been somewhat useful in understanding the means as well, and i suppose that years of writing technical reports and understanding how to express things so they were understood might help a little too 🙂

          Yeah it really is such a simple thing. All we need to do is kill the banks. The single and only entity in this world which needs to terminally consume an economy is Banks, and the only reason they need to do this is because they don’t work and have absolutely nothing to contribute to the economy’s benefit, and need to establish power to consume people’s efforts instead. This is our Satan, and for those believing in a Christian philosophy we need to drive the money changers from the temple and it will be accomplished by force, per his example, so that paradise can exist by default.

          Once gone, the single and absolutely only incentive left for anyone and everyone else, government included is to simply promote and facilitate the absolute maximum level of prosperity for the population and the country which can be obtained, as this benefits absolutely everyone except a bank.

          It’s guaranteed that once banks are no longer an issue, this will be the end result, and its also guaranteed that Mike will be substantially involved in the solution, with him and others coming up with a combination of ideas to make things work to the best extent that they actually can, as no one would have any reason to do anything else. I also know that there are a great many good and honest statesmen within our political system, especially on the congressional level, who would do this willingly but have never been able to act because of the power of banks within the establishment. All we have to so is kill that power so that they can.

          This is also the first time in all of history that such a chance has existed too, as its happening in America, and will be forced by the American population who have figured out who their enemy was before it was too late to do anything about it. America is the only country which can do this too, as it is the only one powerful enough that Banks cannot simply start a war to shut down the effort, and since they cant, what we accomplish here must eventually propagate to the rest of the world as well.

          So lets just make it happen 🙂

          BTW Jake re: your site, please feel free to copy anything i have posted here and use it absolutely anywhere you want to too. It’s public information on a public blog and i’ve posted it simply and only for the benefit of people and the more use that can be made of any of it the happier i am 🙂

  • Here´s the reply from on an email from Mike November 3, 2002
    I think the guy owns him an apology like everyone else who disagreed with him at the time.

    Kent Reply:

    I’ve been on this fellow’s mailing list for some time. He is another crank I enjoy reading if only for the humor. To me, it’s more fun than going to the zoo and looking at the funny animals. His “mathematics” results in the profound conclusion that 2 + 2 = 5.

    “…in any system where the currency is loaned into circulation as a debt subject to interest, it is mathematically impossible to maintain a circulation without debt increasing in proportion to that circulation, until the costs of debt consume the entire circulation, and commerce itself can no longer be afforded.”
    This is simply not true.

    From: PEOPLE For Mathematically Perfected Economy NEWSLETTER
    >To: [email protected]
    >Subject: [PFMPE] Leaders Fit For Fools
    >Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 16:02:42 -0800
    >Sunday, November 3, 2002
    >[PFMPE] Leaders Fit For Fools
    >Thanks, and my apologies to the many who’ve written of my seeming disappearance. A few words might explain…
    >Amidst full time PFMPE demands I cannot support without due attention to my professional goals, and at an extremely demanding juncture of my career which may ultimately make it financially possible to promote the PFMPE cause as never before, it became necessary to step back and re-evaluate the costs and lessons to now. In short, while the software development profession has been hit hard by decline, I am close to completing long term professional goals which probably are the better course for both objectives.
    >A further influence has been that none of the events of present are really news in light of an understanding of the inherent, cumulative toll of a system which multiplies debt and the costs of debt upon a society choosing to be captive to its demise by indifference to the nature of the events at hand. Nonetheless, since long ago, it remains my hope that as the concluding stages of inherently and irreversibly multiplying debt confront the world with collapse of every form of livelihood subject to the present, purported “economy,” suddenly, hopefully, it will dawn on the world the only real solution is the perfection of a truly economic system.
    >If anyone remains an optimist, certainly will I. But in truth, I see little sense I dedicate every waking minute at the complete risk of my own well-being, providing answers again and again which are right before all of us.
    >Here we stand, willing victims of a system which not long ago collapsed the world’s “economies.”
    >While statistic after statistic indicates the ever-approaching brink of a disaster parallel to the preceding cycle culmination we now call “The Great Depression,” American fool after American fool dreams without qualification, war, quite probably for the benefit of the oil and financial barons who presently plunder us to death, will save us from the disaster built into the very system by which they profit from us — namely, irreversible further multiplication of our debt.
    >While our debt mounts to the nearing disaster, we forsake meaningful investigation of the issues at hand. We ignore in our press the hundreds of protests in major cities of the world. We purposely fail to report them that the champions of the world, the American fool, can wave flags in ignorance of our slaying of innocents for oil and the benefit of the financial elite, that the hate which precipitated the events of a year ago may rise to yet greater magnitude.
    >As a nation, we bear a blemished obligation not only to get many internal irregularities in order, but to return to obligatory standards of intercourse with the world by which our country was once respected. In getting our house in order, there is no more important place to focus than ourselves, as together we now comprise a disgrace worthy of little but our own undoing. Neither bombs or guns or false ideology will save us.
    >I was politically focused as a young boy, and I remain perhaps particularly sensitive to obvious efforts to deceive us. Several months ago I witnessed something which I consider, particularly in the awkwardness of its gesticulations, to be one of the most remarkable lies I’ve ever seen. What disturbs me most, is the general American is no better than to remain the willing-enough subject of such lies.
    >As many of you know, I’ve written every American President since and including Gerald Ford, including our current president, explaining that in any system where the currency is loaned into circulation as a debt subject to interest, it is mathematically impossible to maintain a circulation without debt increasing in proportion to that circulation, until the costs of debt consume the entire circulation, and commerce itself can no longer be afforded. While of course, the ultimate consequence of every such system is collapse, the very method of unearned profit taking is indigenous to the class of ruler everywhere about us, as the unearned profits of that very system invest in the necessary hands to retain it upon us, even if by simple, persistent ignorance of the ensuing pleas for justice in the face of collapse. We live in a time of the greatest deceit and hypocrisy.
    >Merely to maintain a circulation, payments of principal and interest, necessarily re-borrowed as subsequent debt increased as much as periodic interest, irreversibly multiply debt, by ever greater increments, to our ever greater detriment. Ultimately, the irreversible multiplication of debt of a so-called financial system designed from its beginning to multiply profit of a class which contributes nothing to prosperity, collapses the very system upon which the perpetrators prey.
    >As this system has multiplied our debt in proportion to our commerce for the profit of the so-called financial world, we’ve seen industry after industry leave our country because we can no longer afford to produce what we have before. We have descended from a once great industrial nation by this system, to a nation which cannot even afford to maintain the very industries we not long ago created.
    >In the early 1980s, we furnished the Reagan Administration computer models forecasting the multiplication of debt would impose terminal costs on the United States’ “economy” by approximately 2010 to 2020 AD, depending on forecasted scopes of circulation and interest rates.
    >The higher rates purposely imposed by Alan Greenspan would accelerate both the profit of the perpetrators and the projected termination, to approximately 2010 or even earlier, particularly as where any sector of the system begins to collapse, that collapse readily collapses the immediate, dependent sectors which are nearly as marginalized.
    >It is no real news to the intelligent (but indisposed to prey upon others) then, that here we are.
    >Of course, if it were by mere accident we imposed a system upon ourselves which would multiply its robbery of us until we can no longer persist even in the dream of prosperity, why would that very system be designed from its beginning to deceive us it too was “free” enterprise? If there were no perpetrators, and if there are no perpetrators, why then would we continually see the very system of plunder defended and glamorized to be what it is not, even in its last days?
    >I watch almost no television, but it happens perhaps that the lie I saw several months ago perfectly answers every necessary question of who, how, and why.
    >Standing before the class of “news” professional we have known since, in the interest of preserving this facade, Ronald Reagan dictated what questions could be asked of him, a president whose roots are entwined with the many Kenny Boys who now plunder us to death had finished a short, unqualified recital of the current, uniform thread of propaganda. Not a word he said will ever be enshrined in any place of enlightenment. Not a word of the bankrupt facade would even make a propagandist proud. No one appeared to be particularly impressed. Yet almost no one required any qualification of the facade at all. As the “economy” tumbled, it was, except for one small question and its answer, a typical rubber stamp “news” conference.
    >I don’t even remember the question, as it was only marginally untimid, but it challenged in only the most subtle way the authority with which the president had spoken. How were we fine; how were we simply to just recover, given the evidence?
    >Here, this president, hopefully but obviously not the wise leader of a great nation, had just finished a routine presentation designed to quell the masses and keep marginally disenchanted, but thoroughly discouraged from appealing to the rest, the many who know better. Typically, the intentional tone is calm; we are addressed as friends — but friends who obviously can realize nothing.
    >Of course, if there is a definite path to recovery despite irreversible multiplication of debt in proportion to commerce, the world has never heard it.
    >Anyway, this utter disgrace to the presidency of a once great nation, but a perfect mascot and instrument of the indifferent present, appeared briefly to compose an answer to the question how we were to recover, despite the evidence. Here is how it went.
    >After a moment, as he began to form the first unrehearsed words, “What the American People have to realize…” he lost his composure — the very composure which from the first inception of every such facade itself, even if alone and entirely unqualified, is designed to influence the idiot masses to assume authority in the speaker. In the middle of the word, “What,” the president of the United States himself was either transformed into, or exposed as, an angry fool denouncing the stupidity of the American People to even question him.
    >Ah, but especially considering the dramatic implications of his answer to so many jeopardized Americans, so great a man can certainly in the rest of his explanation satisfy the thirst for real knowledge in a truly comprehensive answer for the ages.
    >As he stooped over, angrily blurting out “What the American People have to realize,” he caught himself. After an instant to recompose himself then, he finished the single sentence intended to qualify how we will recover despite all the evidence, with the false demeanor of calm and authority so purposely engrained in him for our fitting ignorance.
    >So bad was the lie and so amateurish the recovery from the initial disturbance to his temperament, that he could not face the cameras which had asked the question. He stooped from the podium to his left and our right, facing the floor or some invisible attendant to whom he appeared to be speaking, to finish his gifted sentence with the flair of raising his eyebrows and stretching his face horizontally in a horrible attempt at a totally phony smile, and said, “[(Angrily…) What the American People have to realize…] [and after reverting to calm certitude…] is that the SIGNS of recovery… [pause and further futile thinking]… they are THERE.”
    >Not even one fool applauded. No one even reacted. The incredibly hollow, pretentious words, “they are THERE…” just hung in stupefying silence, as the most incredible thing was no amount of gravity, no training, and no practice, could force the president’s eyes from the invisible person to whom he spoke, to the camera.
    >Awkwardly attempting to end the stupefying silence, and not daring to offer even the first further lie of one single such purported sign, he smiled at the floor again, still unable to face the cameras, and repeated the end of the facade just once more to the invisible attendant beneath him, in yet further lost emphasis. Shaking his head as one would normally gesture “no” to a child not worthy of explanation, he said once again, “perhaps” unable to provide any more convincing argument, slowly saying each of the three words in the most incredible attempt only to appear convincing, “They ARE THERE.”
    >Therefore you can be sure when you go to sleep tonight… already having lost half your life’s retirement “savings…” on the brink of losing your job (if you haven’t lost it already) or suffering business brought to a standstill and full jeopardy if there is no recovery… and after forfeiting the equity in “your” home so you MIGHT last to the purported recovery through times more deprivating than your “friend” in office will ever confess (for HIS benefit)… and as you did so (if you were able to do so) only to pay the interest on your short term debt so you could assume more short term debt in your personal losing battle against inherently, irreversibly multiplied debt… yes, tonight sleep soundly and contentedly, for He watches over you, the pretentious liar who cannot even look you in the eye when he SAYS merely that the signs of recovery ARE there, from a CONTINUING decline (and his true masters’ profit) he is equally adverse to admitting, except it is now so obvious al!
    >l about us.
    >As is the multiplication of debt inherent to the imposed and never assented system, the decline of economy and the direction of world affairs are justified only in augmenting the wealth and power of a few at the expense of the rest.
    >Collapse is inevitable to a system which irreversibly multiplies debt in proportion to commerce. But collapse is certainly not inevitable to any nation truly great enough instead to accept and live by nothing less than real, uniform justice.
    >America and the world can avoid further multiplication of debt to their greater detriment only if they eliminate the unearned profit taker from the system. They can only realize true justice if they eliminate the unearned profit taker from the system.
    >War did not end the Great Depression. Extreme suffering manifesting in the utter futility of maintaining debts, eventually relented in the erasure of debts; and the loaning of new, much less indebted money into circulation paved a way back to a prosperity which itself, still was impeded to the degree interest precluded full prosperity. The Depression would never have occurred, and recovery would have been far more immediate and thorough under a circulation which would have been solely a medium of exchange, incapable of multiplying debt for naught.
    >Not a life or livelihood, or further portion of livelihood lost will cause prosperity. Solution is simple, and singular; and solution can be implemented immediately, that true, full recovery be realized immediately. Refinance all debt without interest; pay debt according to the rate of consumption or depreciation; and suffer no impediment to prosperity and true free enterprise whatsoever.
    >mike montagne — PEOPLE For Mathematically Perfected Economy

  • Tonight Mike is going to talk about how we the people are killing ourselves… what the effects of division are. He´s going to dispel all the plagiarism and contending theories — disprove all of them. Then in the third show, he´s going to round all this out into a firm understanding of solution. So, there will be three programs, the set of which are the whole picture — a complete prescription for how to do the revolution. at 3 PM to 6 PM Pacific Time

    Warm regards,

    Friends of MPE

    • David

      Hi Jake;

      Thanks, and as before, once the broadcast is done, please post a direct link to the download so that we can listen to it as we can. Loved the last one and looking forward to the rest, i’m forwarding them out on my end as well and i think others are too, so will be many more people being exposed to them than just on here.

  • TruthSeeker

    Hi David again,

    You remember a couple of days ago I posted some case law precedence about banks violating the law when they lend their credit, not their money. This may sound like an exotic topic for our debate about sound money and the banking business. However, it is not. All you have to know about banks being in violation of the law is what the good author you referenced in your post described as:

    “Let us see clearly what the fraud is, so that we know what we are up against and why we need an economic renaissance.
    By Law, private financial institutions are allowed to create and issue new money into circulation as credit. They can claim that assets can be used to substantiate the validity of credit. This allows them to seduce governments, businesses, and private individuals into accepting credit as a loan of money.
    The instant a person accepts credit as a loan, the Law states that he is a debtor and owes money.”

    How in hell could you lend something you do not have? If that is not fraud, then what is fraud? Banks never had the money in the light of its absurd capacity to create credit out of thin air and its ability to use Fractional Reserve fiction especially after the advent of computers where credit creation and issuance became nothing more than few soft figures on a computer screen! So how in the other hell courts have been granting garnishment judgments against “debtors” in favor of the so called “creditors” who never owned anything to lend in the first place? Should I go back to school and study law specializing in commercial code? I hate law and I hate lawyers. I have a friend who is a lawyer I told him that when he told me that I should have been a lawyer…I told him that we have different code of morality; that in order to be a lawyer, you must have a different kind of conscience and a different outlook on life. I could never do that. Decency is everything in life and material success is just an illusion. The real success is achieving humanity in oneself and striving to help other do the same. When I hear or watch people advocating money, interest, and self-interest without regard to others, I totally lose interest in their conversation. I have some family members who think that money and material possession is your measure of humanity and worthiness. I despise them and sometimes I do not attend their big gatherings. They ask where is he (meaning me)? My wife is advised to say: he no longer could tolerate big crowds and children screaming out! LOL.

    • David

      Hi TS;

      Yeah, it really is a simple thing isn’t it ? Any business which takes payment without contributing something of tangible value in return is not business but can be nothing other than theft and fraud. There is no debt, the debt is a fiction created by this theft and fraud, and all that remains now is to destroy it, return to the population what we can of what has been stolen from them (which i once roughly estimated to be around $ 500,000.00 / person in today’s currency) and establish a working functioning alternative which serves to promote and facilitate trade for legitimate business which does exist to return tangible benefit to the population.

      The means of trade we propose to facilitate this, according to our opponents is not even money, nor would banks accept such a means in payment for the fictional debts they create, so i guess Christine has her dream in the process too. No money at all, simply and only a public means of exchange to promote and regulate trade for useful benefits in a fair, just and beneficial manner for everyone.

      Those making great contributions to the benefit of others will prosper greatly, freely, independently, fairly and justly in accordance to what they have contributed themselves in order to ensure we have the benefit of their maximum possible efforts toward this end. In terms of this prosperity, we’ve even demonstrated simple means where these persons themselves can be creating abundant prosperity with their efforts for those who contribute less or are not capable of contributing at all (speaking in terms of tangible goods and services only as there are many, many things of equal or greater value that any person can contribute and does), simply to give them the means to buy up the full value of the useful and wonderful things they create, and at absolutely no cost to anyone. Absolutely everybody wins, except for the thieves, cheats, and scam artists who are the only ones who have won in the past at the expense of everyone else.

      Per the article i linked to, “an economic system is as simple as it is honest”, and the means to accomplishing this are simple enough for a 6 year old child to understand as opposed to requiring many years of education in order to learn enough economic religion and theory to attempt to justify the current system of theft and fraud, which just as we have demonstrated, they still can’t do in the eyes of any thinking person no matter how hard they try.

      In terms of the value of a human being, well, regardless of what each has done, and regardless of what each has achieved, every single one of them still eats, sleeps, and sh*ts just the same as all the rest. Where none can establish power over the rest, this remains the case. Where people survive by contributing useful benefits to the rest, none need any form of power in order to survive, and this must remain the case.

      Equal chance for every person according to what they themselves are willing to contribute to the benefit of others, with absolutely no restriction of their ability to do so except for the ability, time and effort each is willing to contribute toward this end. In other words, the final inalienable right of each and every individual which needs to be secured, in order to restore and permanently secure all the rest.

      “We hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal”. It’s about time that America actually becomes America and that fundamental tenet on which it is founded be restored.

    • Hi TS, it´s becoming more and more difficult to post here. These forums are being censored big time now which basically tells you we are so right in our conclusions and opinions.
      Anyway, i just wanted to inform you that there is a second broadcast tonight on TNS radio (a ning network).

      Why don´t you register on endtheecb, so we can broadcast these messages to you direct and exchange email addresses.


  • Christine

    Unemployment Benefits: The 99ers
    October 24, 2010 5:00 PM

    I look forward to the day when people can just be themselves without money involved in their lives, a thing of the past, remembering how ridiculous it was that we let it go on for so long. All these people in this video and around the world would be contributing to society, to their communities, to their families and feeling great….in a world where money is not required, has been totally, along with the ball and chain. People naturally look for ways to feel productive. They want to contribute. They want to help others in the ways they know how to give.

    • David

      Oh God Christine, this is so blatantly illustrative of the real effects which our current system of theft, fraud and Banks do to humanity, and all that is left now is for all of these wonderful, talented, and capable people to realize that there is absolutely no hope of ever again accomplishing anything in their lives which could possibly make them a worthwhile thing and start killing themselves as it is the single and only good thing left that they can do toward their own benefit. I guess we can add Mass Murder to the crimes that these economic terrorists are guilty of as well.

      As you say “People naturally look for ways to feel productive. They want to contribute. They want to help others in the ways they know how to give.” Deny them the chance to do so and what reason have they to continue to live ? In can’t think of any reason i would want to live other than to have the chance to do just that.

      Have been there and done that and seen the end result of this and i am just so glad that in this country, people are realizing that there is no reason for it to be this way while they are still able to act and that we finally have such an array of wonderfully talented people working toward destroying the power that makes it so, and restoring the hope and ability of all these wonderful, talented and capable people to contribute the benefits they can provide to all the rest.

      Absolutely everyone needs to watch this, its imperative in order to realize the gravity of the situation and the consequences if we don’t succeed.

      Once again, thanks Christine, ever so much.

      • Christine

        This unemployment report illustrates and illuminates many things. Beliefs are a funny thing and they frequently lead people into irrational behaviors that lack common sense. Businesses could still continue on IF we simply chose to believe that WE are what is important as the foundation, and not money. That one change would change the dynamics and the paradigm of everything. People would continue to contribute in worthwhile, skilled ways, no necessary business would shut its doors and everyone would experience abundance and a richness to their lives that is so lacking in the world of corporations. Everyone would be a valued contributor with a sense of satisfying fulfillment. Money is not necessary! It is optional. We see the use of this option upon which to base a system of living based, corrupts what comes by us naturally, corrupts minds, hearts and intentions…that is wearing us out and degrading our creative energy. As long as we continue to use this option, we will suffer. We are not in control of the monetary system. It is in the hands of those who are less than human and certainly not humanitarians. Any monetary system set up can become corrupted, just as the current one has become. Those who pervert knowledge and advancements will still live amongst us and still have the tendencies to exploit others, to ruin the earth, our health, unless and until we take back our control over our own lives.

        I see a day coming when people merely exchange goods and services without money or controllers. These folks who have invented one financial product after another for profit have rendered themselves useless to a humanitarian society. Profit is not the goal. Meeting the our human needs is the goal. We must decide to follow a path of living that is useful and productive, fulfilling and satisfying for all of human kind.

        Focusing on our creative nature, our own intelligence, the strength of our own power, love, is our saving grace. My spiritual knowings do not lead to to the same conclusions as yours do, so I do not subscribe to willful death as an option or an end result to all this madness, rather, I keep in mind thoughts of life, the abundance that is here to share with all people, the end to inequities, to the manipulative wars and destruction and those who cause it towards a peaceful earth. I know the time we are living in is only temporary and it has a purpose if people take time to get to know what good all this serves. We are seeing more and more every day how we have been lied to and manipulated into participating and executing the plans of some very sick-minded people who need some serious psychiatric treatment. They simply are not of sound mind to lead and we certainly are refusing to follow. We have become our own leaders now. We are not giving our power away to others, ever again. We see where that leads. We have other ideas in mind that are full of life and living more fully than we have allowed ourselves to experience.

        • TruthSeeker

          Hi Christine,

          I would love to have a hundred neighbors like you. I would throw my wallet away and wear my tools belt around my waist. I love trading and barter living, and damn it, who says that money is more important than people? Even the ones who blatantly say so are self-deceived. When they find a special person in their life, money tends to become a secondary concern to them! Is not that weird? This simple fact is overlooked by all schools of economics. All they see is MONEY…MONEY…and more MONEY. But who creates money? Humans. Who gives value to money? Humans. The human expression is what gives life meaning and value. Even the slick evil Rothschild knew that money was not worth a crap if they did not succeed in making it redeemable in form of human expression (labor, skills, energy, time, good, or service.) So when money comes out of the print shop, it is worth zero + ink + paper. When it is placed in circulation and starts equating for transactions, then it starts picking up value. So who gives money value? Humans. So why all this madness over money? It is the false and evil human ego which is the opposite of love. Is not that the human tribulation which makes life a curse rather than a spiritual experience worthy of living?

          So are we talking money now, philosophy, or spirituality? Everyone decides for himself and this is the story of our life.

          I am about to go into a liberty venture. I will not say much about it now. But if turns out to be successful, I promise to come back and share it with you guys.


        • Christine

          TruthSeeker, I just listened to a good radio program and something Max said just jumped out at me…several things did, but the one thing he said about community was clear. Broken down, this word community means common unity. We need to rebuild our communities so we can sense this common unity among us, not just in the virtual word, but in real live communities. When women went into the work force, communities started breaking down and so did the family. The elite could tax the other 1/2 of the population so they sponsored the women’s movement. Women used to be so involved in building and maintaining our communities so they gave us great strength and served the purpose of uniting us. We knew each other, we looked out for each other, we helped each other. Someone I know attends a church that has grouped people together by neighborhoods so they have opportunities to know like-minded folks in their immediate area. How cool is that? We will come to rely on the strength of our communities once again and make them a priority. I know “they” don’t want that. The number of foreclosures lends to neighbors moving away, to further break down communities and support systems, but nonetheless, this is a time to create great gatherings. This will be our return to something valuable…each other. A saying a co-worker of mine used is “if you are not one, then you need to know one” will be our motto. We’ll need people to help with auto and home repairs, free energy motors, you name it and for us to feel productive, we will need folks who need what we have to give. How this simple exchange between people has been so exploited! Money.

          I’ve always marveled at those in the construction trade. It’s so creative, so constructive! Amazes me how you can one day go by a pile of dirt and months later a building with level doors and windows stands. Or taking a beat up old home and adding some improvements like cabinetry, wood flooring, tile work, paint and wow, what a wonderful things that is! The before and after is proof of what a vision can do. No wonder Jesus was a carpenter, eh? A natural fit.

          I wish you an enjoyable venture in liberty! You’ve got me wondering now what could it be, so do come back and let us know. The thing about life is, we make everything up as we go. This is earth school where some things work out so well in ways we could not have guessed. We put ourselves out there and take special note of the synchronicities that come together for a wonder-full, memorable experience. We don’t need to see the whole staircase, rather, we just need to take the first step.

        • Christine

          Max Igan on True Book Radio August 19, 2010

          Radio Archives

  • Christine

    Foreclosure Tsunami. Proof of the Coming Real Estate Collapse.

    A statement in this video jumped out at me. I wondered how the elite would execute their Agenda 21, to get millions of people to move out of areas in mass so the federal government corporation and the banksters (collaboratively) can claim the property and the AMERICAN land as their own. How could they get AMERICANS to move off their land into small consolidated areas? Listen.

    This guy says that the areas with the highest number of foreclosures are the areas with the highest number of “exotic mortgage programs”. Exotic, nice name for criminal. Another nice name “creative” as in creative financing for folks who do not really qualify or won’t be able to make payments but for a very short time…..AND they know it.

    Agenda 21 For Dummies

    Sustainable living……….is not a plan of sustainable living for us!

    I have a problem with that!!

    If this so-called fake government were concerned about the earth, then they would not be collaborating with the oil companies to ruin the earth and sea life with chemicals like corexit and oil, chemtrails to ruin the air with barium and aluminum, fluoride to ruin our water supply, unnecessary flu shots that kill and maim people for life with neurological disorders, convulsions and other side effects, GMO seeds and Monsanto pesticides in our food and on our lands.

    It is perfectly clear the reasoning behind what they are doing is not for the sake of a clean and green earth, sea, air, water……….or us.

    And I maintain…if any of the politicians that are running for office do not speak to these problems…….then they are NOT for AMERICA or AMERICANS….and we just don’t need them making any more decisions for us. They simply do not qualify!

    And for those at political rallies and townhalls…….bring up questions on these topics and ask these politicians directly. Put them on the spot, and don’t feel bad about it either, because we need answers, and we need to be able to discern just exactly whose side they are on. These confrontations may be aired on television and it is a good way to get more people aware of the difficulties we are really facing. Wake up more people, in the public arenas.

    They are in the process of destroying our property rights with this foreclosure process scam. So when Dodd has his congressional hearing on Nov 16, listen carefully to what he says they plan to do.

    Will the banks stop their REO program, with the banks keeping our property?

    • Christine

      and what they have done and do with the loan modification programs is offer a loan modification, only after they have fallen behind in payments…

      After the homeowner submits all their financial information,

      They tell them they don’t qualify for the loan modification, even if they percentage-wise they did meet the criteria, but bypass that option by telling them the time had run out on qualifying…then move them to the next stage…

      They give them a lower house payment for 6 months, which is appealing to someone who is financially stressed out, that must be made timely each month

      While they periodically collect financial information from the homeowner, bank statements, as if acquiring evidence for a bankruptcy court case in case the homeowner files BK

      Imply that they will give them loan terms, appraise their home, but don’t give them anything in writing so they know where they are heading (instead they are walking them blind down a dark alley)

      They don’t know the terms of the new loan (so isn’t that a loan modification anyway, that they said they did not qualify for in the first place?). Don’t know the # of years, the monthly payment, the interest rate…so who knows if they will be able to make whatever payments the come up with?

      And at the end of the 6 month contract they signed with the mortgage servicing company…they have to wait another 2 months for a “review”. The contract runs from June to Dec. So what is their payment for January and February while the mortgage servicing company reviews?

      Will they send someone to the house to foreclose? tell them their house is already sold? What? We don’t do real estate or financial transaction unless it is in writing! So why do they keep this information from the homeowner and not put it down in writing?

      Because these companies are incentivized to get paid (usually $6,000 per property) only when they foreclose on the property…not if a loan modification is successful.

      This is the corruption of money in action!! This is how they get US to go along with the corrupt money system. We always need to be thinking about what we are doing and what it is creating. This is why so many Americans are losing their homes, besides having a government/FED that is keeping unemployment high, making it impossible for people to be responsible by paying their monthly mortgage payments. Just not the people’s fault that they can’t ….and the people should not pay for the irresponsibility of this government, who continually behaves irresponsibly and does this intentionally and on purpose to suit their own self-centered, self-serving agenda.

      I say, make them show you the note, who owns the mortgage note? Only this investor has the right to bring a claim against you for non-payment…and they don’t know who that is.

      Is there a way of handling this in court simply, without the use of an attorney? People don’t really want to be feeding more attorneys. We have attorneys making the laws on the one hand, and attorneys benefiting from the trouble the laws cause on the other hand. What a system! It’s gotta go!

    • TruthSeeker

      Hello everyone,

      I am going to ask all of us who believe in our mission which is represented by our Declare & Demand petition to refrain from pointless and childish dog talk. If someone disagrees with our end goal, that is perfectly fine and they are sure entitled to that. But that is different from having the right to come on this forum and play distraction politics. I do not know about you guys, but I have better things to do than waste my precious time and energy in nonsense verbal exchange which is void of any content, decency, and intellect. There will always be someone who will disagree with you. In fact do not be overwhelmed to find out that that someone could be huge naive crowds. We are not better than Christ himself. He was rejected by huge and powerful crowds who chased him to crucify him. He was betrayed by his best friend Judas.

      I must fully agree with Jake that all this mad talk is not about economics. I knew it deep inside me too. Our disagreements are not about some mathematical model that we dispute for the best economy. Our dispute is about principles that have everything to do with morality; what is right and what is wrong. What serves the interest of justice and liberty, and what does not. We kept hearing the same arguments come in over and over again. Why not interest? Why not banks? Why not gold as precious and scarce? Well, there is no need to be a genius to assess why someone wants so bad to preserve banks, interest, and scarce currency. There is no need for theory and analysis when something has been tried and failed before. I am only willing to discuss something novel that has not been tried. We do not have the time and energy to rehash old rotting stuff. What we are after on this forum is not to secure the gold investment of Mr. Gold and Mrs. Silver. We can care less about that. Our goal is to give people another chance to be free…free of abuse…free of exploitation…free of the deadly idleness that has been imposed on them by the money monopolies. Our goal is to see for once that our neighborhoods enjoy all kind of prosperities, all small businesses are making a fortune and all our products and services are being joyfully consumed. How can we do that? So simple and we do not need genius economists like Hayek and Friedman to construct very complex equations and models to accomplish that. It is so simple to realize one simple rule in life: IF YOU DO NOT HAVE IT, YOU CAN NOT GIVE IT! How simple is that? If people have no money to spend, how could the grandma store stays in business? Dump enough money in the economy and make sure it is enough to respond to the productive and trade capacity and also make sure that this money will not disappear in the pockets of the secret money monopoly. Make damn sure that it stays in circulation. Make sure that money is not abused and that its function remains as a means to facilitate our economical activities. There is drug abuse which we know of as using drugs for a purpose that was not made for. Similarly, there is money abuse when it is used for something it was not made for. Some will continue to argue the point that money just like drugs can be used in anyway an individual deems appropriate and that it is the individual choice which dictates that. Well, that is one side of the argument, and the other side consists of huge establishments that we can not afford to allow exercising that choice. The FED must go, the banks must go. No compromise and no buts and ifs about it. After that is accomplished, let Citizen and Daniels exercise their personal choice and let them find some fool to lend gold money to and charge prohibitive interest. Hopefully that fool also turns out to be a scam artist without an income to garnish! What we are dealing with is not few individuals who want to abuse drugs and money, what we have here is drugs and money cartel. Any system of government that is in the sound mind would never allow such a huge threat to visit upon the people. What we are dealing with here is money abuse on the largest and most deadly scale ever witnessed in the history of mankind. I am sure if you saw an entire society that is abusing drugs; the dad, the mom, the children, the grandparents, the grand children, you would not overlook that, say it is their choice to die from the abuse, and continue to claim decency. You must stop and fight back the corruption. I hope I made my point.

      • David

        Hi TS;

        LOLOL well you do have an incredibly wonderful talent for speaking my own mind and i will second every single word of this post.

        In terms of the recent ongoing between the Austrians and we “Franklin Libertarians”, do realize one thing though. In all of this time, and with all of the argument, they still have not provided one single demonstration as to how what they propose can actually be of benefit to people, where we have repeatedly demonstrated the potential for the damage it would create and have been proposing solutions toward the benefit of the population which each and every one of them can understand. The discussions are currently circulating among the general population who are reading exactly what has been posted and stated by both sides and the credibility of the final last ditch attempt by banks to continue to consume our productive effort after the people have already decided they had to go, has been completely, totally and utterly destroyed. Exactly the same happened with those who were trying to defend the current Federal Reserve system when this started, and it was in fact exactly these which provoked the responses which destroyed their own credibility as well.

        As you say, there is little point in continuing such discussion at this point, but do realize the incredible value of the efforts you have contributed to the final objective as a result.

        Once again, thank you my friend 🙂

    • David

      Hi Christine;

      Love your links as always. Agenda 21, established and promoted by the worlds banks, sounds an awful lot like the communist manifesto to me.

      Once again, thanks Christine, this is very useful.

  • Christine

    Obama promised to work hard to cut $1 million dollars in spending.
    Visualizing Obama’s budget cuts. This is what that looks like. haha, politicians!

    It would have been perfect for the sound money blog, but it appears to have been shut down. Anyone know why?

    • TruthSeeker

      What a wimp! Let’s see if there is another way to see the ratio since I work with math all the time.

      100,000,000 to 35,00,000,000,000

      You knock out 8 zeros from each side, the ratio reduces to:

      1: 35,000. That is one to thirty five thousands ratio! That is almost zero!

      You do not believe me yet? Pull out your calculator and do the math:

      1 divided by 35,000 = something less than 0.0003. You know how little that is? It is not 3%; it is less
      It is not 0.3%; it is less
      It is not 0.03%; it is less
      It is not 0.003%; it is less
      So what the hell these bureaucrats are thinking? Of course they have the right to think we are so stupid because our kids do not know how to do the math.

  • Douglas

    James Madison said:

    “””“Of all the enemies to public liberty war is, perhaps, the most to be dreaded, because it comprises and develops the germ of every other. War is the parent of armies; from these precede debts and taxes; and armies, and debts, and taxes are the known instruments for bringing the many under the domination of the few. In war, too, the discretionary power of the Executive is extended; its influence in dealing out offices, honors, and emoluments is multiplied; and all the means of seducing the minds, are added to those of subduing the force, of the people…. [There is also an] inequality of fortunes, and the opportunities of fraud, growing out of a state of war, and … degeneracy of manners and of morals…. No nation could preserve its freedom in the midst of continual warfare.

    A standing military force, with an overgrown Executive will not long be safe companions to liberty. The means of defense against. Foreign danger, have been always the instruments of tyranny at home. Among the Romans it was a standing maxim to excite a war, whenever a revolt was apprehended. Throughout all Europe, the armies kept up under the pretext of defending, have enslaved the people.

    Oppressors can tyrannize only when they achieve a standing army, an enslaved press, and a disarmed populace

    A well regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, trained in arms, is the best most natural defense of a free country””””…..

    What would James Madison say now? He would see how the Military Industrial Complex born out of WWII through the Private Owners of the Western Central Banks and that after they lost control of Hitler they had to stop him. So, the whole disproportional build up of Hitler’s Army was multiplied by Their desparate need to stop him.

    After, the whole world was either blown up, big in debt or left with a huge Industrial Complex that either had to keep going or be converted into peace time productions. For example, the ‘Space Program’ was implemented in full force as a way to offset the economic dependency on the Industrial Military Complex.

    What Eisenhower realized was that the same people who gave rise to the Axis of Evil were the same who profited off its destruction and stayed in power.. The fact that they lost control of Hitler is not the main issues. The issue is what they where planning on doing with Hitler’s massive Industrial Socialistic Complex before he turned on them. That is what you have been deprived of!

    David, what we are dealing with here will take much more than a public effort to sway the general population to decommission the private ownership of The Federal Reserve. It would be much more to do the whole operation covertly without the Public Knowing. Our enemies simply have too much power over the Media and thus the Minds of the Public to be effective on a Political Scale. Nor, will some brilliant economic genius single handedly be able to neutralize such a Power.

    For example, the Private Central Banking Families have already placed ‘check mate’ into position in the event the US public should rise up and oust their power and influence over US Monetary policy. Why do you think the Power of the US Government is so cooperative and easily manipulated by such a Powerful Unconstitutional Force? It is called Global Multi-National Economic Interdependency. Yea, the US could easily brake off and take care of our own economy; However, not without a great deal of turmoil, public misunderstandings and China coming to claim their share of US Securities in the form of Land, Real-estate, Production and Labor.

    “Check Mate”!

    So, it would be better to covertly weed out all the Private Central Banking Families ‘AGENTS’ operating in the US Government, CIA, Pentagon, FBI, IRS, FDA, etc. Then slowly restore the economic independent sustainability of the US as nonchalantly as possible. To keep the publics Media Mind in the right direction we will have to put CFR members and organizers on public trial.

    On the Other Hand, we could make an International effort. This is an approach typical in many college political fraternal orders. What they promote is the International expansion of US principles such as Democracy, Free Markets and other Humane Rights. However, history shows that they are all used primarily to spread the power and control of the Private Central Banking Families.

    Our International effort would be impossible to implement without the Internet. In this case we would require a team that just focused on the Internet System of Alliances. We would simply promote that each Nation join together to keep and preserve their Independent Economic Sustainability with a proportional amount of trade.

    It was interesting to read how G-20 gathered and hashed out the exchange rates and the prospect of sustainable trade. Meanwhile, The Private Central Banking Families stand to benefit know matter who walks away with the best deal. How can G-20 pretend to figure out trade and exchange values when they have know audit or control over Private Central Banking Issuance.

  • TruthSeeker

    Hi all,

    Finally I got the Declare & Demand on the petition site but not 100% as I wanted it to look. It is not too bad though as is. I was amazed that about twenty people have already signed it so far when I checked it out today. This is the link to it:

    I will continue to monitor it, maintain it, and give you an update. Good luck to all of us.

    • David

      Hi TS;

      It looks great and thanks. I guess the effect will be determined by how many actually find it and for those who do i know a great percentage will sign it as well. Maybe someone on the site will get hold of it and start promoting the crap out of it so that the majority on there will participate as well.

      Election is coming up next week, so will get it resposted on here over the weekend along with some simple instructions as to what to do with it, and if we keep reposting and keep it at the front here for awhile so that those who agree can act on it, it should be effective. If everyone who agrees can do what you did and post it on any sites they are on where they can do this would be fantastic, and also if everyone can just email the crap out of it to everyone they know, so that it can get into people’s inboxes and in front of their face so they can see it and act on it as individuals without them having to find it we should have an extreme effect. Based on a 10 % forward rate, it should hopefully be able circulate through the entire population within a matter of weeks, and come back to them several times after the saturation point is reached as well.

      Been checking and enjoying your other posts on here as well. Fantastic job as always of presenting reason, logic, and hard functional arguments toward establishing something that can work, in opposition to the conjecture and theory of the so called experts who claim that this can’t be done, and the only people in who’s minds it can’t be are those who have been educated in the current system to where they no longer can understand the simple arithmetic which demonstrates that it can. Wonderful job in presenting the moral arguments in favor of this as well, your ability to do this far exceeds my own and in terms of the effect of the theft and fraud on its victims there could be no greater fuel being poured on the fire which is currently starting to burn out of control among our population today. As long as everyone keeps doing this, and adding more gasoline in every way each person can as and individual eventually the fire must consume the very thing which is the reason for needing to do so in the first place 🙂

      By the people, for the people, and of the people. We the people can make this happen, through all of us, as individuals, through our own thought and action, and without the need for any bank funded or corrupted organizations to divert the effort 🙂

    • Thanks TS, i just wish we would had communicated this better.

      Mike´s Amendment is bullet proof, and will take all the banks out.


  • Dwayne

    How is raw milk bad for you?…Sure if its spoiled…Before refineries were open people used to drink it straight from the titt(Without Refridgeration).Thats like telling people not to go hunting for their meat,instead go to the grocery store and buy meats from animals that consumed pestisides,has preservatives and other chemicals added.Those animals were raised no telling where,abused and bruised,eating each others poop,in very confined areas,so disease could spread quickly(Hence Swine Flu).Before the 70’s mechanically separated chicken was unfit for human consumption,but now everyone eats chicken mcnuggets,enriched with god knows what.The feds just dont want people to go back to the chemical free,tax free,way of life.Its not about the safety issue,(I know how to tell if my milk’s spoiled)it’s all about control,and keeping us all dependent on the profitable,chemical addicted way of life.I practice self reliance,I pay my taxes on bought goods,and guess what I dont do the flu-shot(Dont believe in anything thats CDC or Fed sanctioned),and hav’nt been sick in 4 years(I think thats the last time I had a cold),must be the fresh venison,eggs straight from the chickens arse,and backyard grown(pesticide and preservative free) turnips…

  • Liberty Bell

    I believe in science and the studies that have been done that show that raw milk distributed by a grocery store may be unhealthy and a potential health risk.

    so, yeah, I don’t have a problem believing “the feds” or a government agency that is responsible for food safety issues. I’m glad that agency is there or we would have people selling bad food to increase profits.

    Unlike some that hate anything to do with “government” – I actually appreciate having government regulations and agencies that provide services that protect the safety and health of our citizens.

    even if you think the government is overreaching in some instances you have to at least agree that there are important and beneficial government agencies or you are a moron.


    • TruthSeeker

      Liberty Bell,

      Stop being naive. We are not against government regulating food. We are against government making regulations for the benefit of big corporations and to eliminate small businesses. We are also against exaggerations that are geared towards securing control over small ventures. Have you seen the raid by the LAPD on the organic store? If you have not, here it is:

    • Christine

      The Truth about Raw Milk with Mark McAfee from Organic Pastures

      The truth from the folks who know….AMERICANS! Those who work in WA D.C. and the federal government work for a foreign dummy corporation from Britain. Know your facts about what and who this fake government we have really is…then discern. Without those facts, you are misled into thinking and believing a lie.

      We will not ring the liberty bell until we DO have a government of our own for the united states of America, the one our founders established.

      The constitution has been altered from saying
      united states of America


      UNITED STATES OF AMERICA (which is a corporation, and a foreign one at that). What WA D.C. is, is a country to itself, with it’s own laws, separate from the united states of America. Did you know that? That makes all the difference in the world…truly. Now the reason we could not have the same health care plan as those who work for the federal government in WA D.C., why they invented an entirely different one for those in the united states, becomes much more clear.

      • Christine

        …and so back to the info in the link…. so much for the FDA, eh?

  • Liberty Bell

    I think the main problem the feds had was the sell at this market of raw milk, which is very likely to be harmful to those that drink it.

    Quote: Scientists and regulators point to epidemiological evidence linking disease outbreaks to raw milk: The milk can transmit bacteria such as E. coli O157:H7, salmonella, campylobacter and listeria, which can result in diarrhea, kidney failure or death.

    So, it may be that they have a legitimate concern for the safety of consumers.

    Just a thought.

    • Christine

      and you believe the feds?

      • TruthSeeker

        Hi Christine,

        I do believe the FED but only when I have already lost my mind! Do you know that most of those called raw food bacteria can be dealt with so easy and many of us with naturally strong health and good immune system can handle them without antibiotics? Do you know that our saliva, tong cells, stomach acid, intestine tract, are all lines of natural defenses that should kill most bacteria before even the food gets absorbed into the blood stream? All that sushi and raw meat dishes famous worldwide have been eaten for millenniums without serious infections. There are tons of herbs like ginger root, Greek oregano, cayenne pepper, sage, cloves, mustard seeds, fresh and potent garlic, and many many more could handle any bacteria? What’s wrong with raw milk having few bacteria? We are supposed to be healthy enough to handle that. If it were not for our poor health condition of ours, we would not worry about all that junk precaution. Get healthy: enough clean and fresh water, enough oxygen, enough sun along with Omega 3 and Vitamin C, D, and E every day and eat a chicken alive! Do not worry yourself about all that FED crap. I have been doing it all my life, and I never had salmonella infection. If I could do it, you could too.

    • Christine

      Frankenfish: Tampering with nature

      The Gulf of Mexico oil spill – destroying sea life, food supply
      The Alaskan oil spill – destroying sea life, food supply
      Corexit and chemicals in our water, air, land, food – chemtrails
      Lies to make you believe there is an overpopulation problem so you’ll think this is all ok…reduces your resistance against “them” and what they are doing.

      Attack on organic farmers? It’s natural food for God’s sake!!

      Think people Think!

      I realize that some minds are not functioning normally due to the fluoride in our water due to the harmful effects on the brain and all of the toxic chemical inundation on our bodies. Do a cleanse, detox, and practice a breathing meditation that will help get your minds function normally again.

      Since when has the EPA or the FDA cared so much about our health and food? Never.

      • Christine


        The chemical combination they put in the Gulf of Mexico took the oxygen out of the water. The toxins are now up the east coast by New Jersey, so what they said about the currents carrying the oil and toxins up the coast is apparent now.

        Where is the new media? Shhhh…. Don’t tell them they have an obligation to the American people to keep us informed. You’ll give them an inferiority complex.

  • Christine

    Police Begin “Guns Drawn” Raids on Organic Food Stores in California

    What is going on with these people posing as America police?
    What is going on in America? Have they totally lost their minds?

    Senate Bill S510 Makes it illegal to Grow, Share, Trade or Sell Homegrown Food

    F-R-E-E-E-E-E-E-E-E-E-E-E-E-D-O-M !!

  • Hello to all,

    I hope you didn’t miss Saturday’s first broadcast on ¨Mathematically Perfected Economy¨ by Mike Montagne. We were still taking calls to the wee hours of the morning after the show. I’ve arranged at least for now, for show archives to be hosted at ZShare. The link to listen to the first broadcast is:

    If you really want to succeed in getting ALL banks out, it’s time to start going viral. I leave it to you to spread this as you see fit.

    Warm regards,

    • David

      Hi Jake;

      I finally had time to download and listen to Mike’s broadcast, absolutely fantastic. Strongly recommend that absolutely everyone take the time to listen to this, in fact it is our duty as free Americans to listen to this and anyone attempting to present arguement’s against this can have absolutely no credibility whatsoever until they have as well, as the rest of us either have or will.

      Have already forwarded it into circulation as follows:

      Hi Guys;

      I’m sending you all a link to an audio broadcast from Mike Montagne on his MPE economic model which has been mentioned in previous emails. It’s long, almost 4 hours, and i finally had time to download and listen to it in its entirety and very strongly recommend that everyone do this at some point soon as well. Although in some cases he uses slightly different terminology than many of us have for the sake of scientific accuracy, it confirms and demonstrates in no uncertain terms everything which previous discussions have entailed, and establishes an absolutely and crystal clear image of a working, functioning and beneficial economy along with an absolutely and crystal clear image of the current system of exploitation as well.

      Please forward this on as well, its important and needs to be put in front of the entire population.

      Thanks Everyone

      Dave :{)


      Thanks Jake 🙂

  • Christine
  • Christine

    Why Bank Of America Fired Me

    If they don’t have employees executing their policies to harm to others,
    they don’t have a corporation!

  • TruthSeeker

    Hi all,

    I would like to share with you some case law precedence which makes it unlawful what banks have been doing lending its credit, and I without technical certainty think that the fractional reserve banking practices is nothing but lending a banks credit since the money is amplified as some sort of credit created by mere initiation of fractional deposits. In other words, the 90% portion of its total reserve worth which does not exist is some form of credit that the bank created based on the actual deposit. Now imagine if every deposit was withdrawn simultaneously and there is an actual zero deposit in the bank, then the bank would be lending money that does not exist and which is the least can be characterized as a false credit. This becomes even worse when you consider that the parent bank is issuing similar credit based on the child bank’s credit which does not exist. I could be technically mistaken, but you see the problem with the concept. Notice the dates on the court decisions; some were before 1913!

    “It has been settled beyond controversy that a national bank, under Federal law, being limited in its power and capacity, cannot lend its credit by nor guarantee the debt of another. All such contracts being entered into by its officers are ultra vires and not binding upon the corporation.” It is unlawful for banks to loan their deposits. Howard & Foster Co. vs. Citizens National Bank, 133 S.C. 202, 130 S.E. 758 (1926).

    “Neither, as included in its powers not incidental to them, is it a part of a bank’s business to lend its credit. If a bank could lend its credit as well as its money, it might, if it received compensation and was careful to put its name only to solid paper, make a great deal more than any lawful interest on its money would amount to. If not careful, the power would be the mother of panics . . . Indeed; lending credit is the exact opposite of lending money, which is the real business of a bank, for while the latter creates a liability in favor of the bank, the former gives rise to a liability of the bank to another. I Morse. Banks and Banking 5th Ed. Sec 65; Magee, Banks and Banking, 3rd Ed. Sec 248.” American Express Co. v. Citizens State Bank, 181 Wis. 172, 194 NW 427 (1923). I demand under TILA full disclosure and proof to the contrary.

    “There is no doubt but what the law is that a national bank cannot lend its credit or become an accommodation endorser.” National Bank of Commerce v. Atkinson, 55 F. 465; (1893).

    “A bank can lend its money, but not its credit.” First Nat’l Bank of Tallapoosa v. Monroe, 135 Ga 614, 69 S.E. 1123 (1911).

    • David

      Hi TS;

      This is interesting. Your knowledge in these areas obviously far exceeds my own, but from what you’ve posted here it almost sounds like we might be on the verge of convicting them with their own rules, doesn’t it ?

      • TruthSeeker

        It looks like it David, but I am not a lawyer and there has been a strange trend in the courts ruling which is rather outrageous. Courts have not been enforcing common law principals contemplated by the wisdom of the judiciary through case law when it comes to banks and financial institutions. I learned that bitter fact through some litigation I was personally involved in involving debt collectors who continue to get most of their judgments by rubber stamped resolutions (default.) The best of all our government branches remains the judiciary. Thank God. However, most bank and financial institution litigation stands at stark disparity considering the well-armed v. the disadvantaged. Banks have always had the best and most evil lawyers while their opponents rarely have a fair chance to combat the banks predatory dominance.

        • David

          Hi Again TS;

          LOL looks like were both up in the middle of the night, not sure what your time zone is but at best its morning coffee for you. Yeah i have to agree, currently courts are more likely to enforce some form of justice than the elected dummy corporation in the service of the banks and we’ve been seeing some good indications of that in James and Alvies efforts too.

          Anyway going to give you a link here, check it out and i think you’ll find it entertaining 🙂

  • TruthSeeker

    Hi all,

    This is the Demand as slightly edited:


    “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shown, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.” It is not the system of government that has failed the American People; it is the number of people that are within the government that have failed;Who have willfully and repeatedly committed gross acts of treason against the United States of America and its population in violation of their oaths of office and their common duty as United States citizens. Who have abrogated their Constitutional responsibility to supply and manage our national currency to private banks of not only domestic but of foreign interest. Who having conspired with such banks and corporations whom through theft, fraud, corruption and deception, have continued in a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object of reducing the American people under absolute Despotism in order to establish themselves as a “ruling elite” and gain absolute power and ownership over America, its industry, resources and over its population for themselves, in direct violation of the fundamental tenet on which the United States of America is founded, that all men are created equal. We the people claim the Right of the People to alter this form of Government; All within our government who are complicit in these acts of treason will be given a short time to renounce their treason and re-affirm their oaths of allegiance to the United States of America and we the people. They will hold such banks and corporations accountable for their theft, fraud and conspiracy against the American people and the United States of America, declare all debts created by them, both public and private, null and void, seize whatever assets are in their possession and return them to we the people. They will define all business which takes profit without returning something of tangible benefit to the population a criminal practice. They will be given a short time to fulfill their constitutional obligation to create and manage a debt free public currency of whatever form they deem necessary, which will exist simply and only to facilitate the creation and consumption of production and services by the population and exist for the sole and exclusive benefit of the people of America. They will immediately and by whatever means necessary, issue this currency into circulation among the population in sufficient quantity to restore the United States economy to the extent where sufficient currency is maintained in circulation at all times in order to pay for the full value of all useful production and services which the population is able to generate for all time to come. They will be given a short time to restore all constitutional freedoms to their fullest extent. They shall within a reasonable time make such constitutional amendments as are necessary to permanently secure every aspect of our national currency and its management exclusively to congress, where it can no longer be usurped by private interests in further attempts to reduce us under absolute despotism. They shall within a reasonable time abolish the 16th amendment of the United States Constitution and secure exclusive rights to loan and collect interest on the United States currency to congress and to state and local governments to fund their operations in lieu of taxes and they will ensure full public access to the currency on a local level, maintaining accounts, issuing loans and providing all essential financial services to the population. Upon the failure of this number of people within the government to do so, we the people will fulfill our right and our duty to abolish the current form of Government and provide new safeguards for our own security by whatever means are necessary. We the people of the United States of America have had enough. The evils have become insufferable and we are not going to take anymore. This better happen soon!

    • David

      Hi TS;

      Thanks for getting this up, have been away most of the day here.

      Re: slightly edited, the only change is see is the elimination of the paragraph formatting, so don’t know if its just the copy paste that worked out or if there’s a reason for it re: legalities your considering etc., so let me know, either way is great. 🙂

  • TruthSeeker

    Hi David,

    Are you familiar with the following site?
    This site allows you to create your own petition and promote it. I thought that might be a good idea to circulate our DEMAND petition. Check it out and let me know if it is worth it.

    • Hi TS/David,

      Good idea batman, but before going this route may i recommend having Mike involved. He has been working on his amendment/petition for a very long time. It is very detailed and robust. It will for sure get ALL the banks out!

      I will discuss with him later today.


      • TruthSeeker

        Hi Jake,

        No problem. We need to get as many as possible involved in this. In fact, it might be a good stop to ammend and update the demand for new ideas or suggestions. Thanks Jake.

        • TS/David,

          Send Mike an invitation through Skype: m_montagne
          So we can have a conf call later this week to discuss.

          The new website will have the Amendment online for everyone to sign (globally). Mike is working to finish the new site and that will take him another 2-3 weeks.
          This is also the reason why he doesn´t have time to appear on the forums.

          Here´s what he had to say about this:

          Anyway, because I have at least 35 hours of work to do every day, I’m going to leave it to you fellows to deal with these people. As you say, they lack integrity. Of course, I’ve had the same experience with practically all of them, since the early 1980s. Don’t worry about these guys. Fight with them all you want — but just do so as sport. Sure, you may win an occasional convert… but the greatest part of the lessons of wrestling with these lowlies is finding what makes them tick — and answering for that in your discussions with *real* people.

    • David

      Hi Guys;

      Taking a short coffee break here and found your posts. The petition site looks great TS, since your on it would be great if you could get our declaration and demand posted. I’ll be getting it up here this weekend again, so if we can all just promote the crap out of it and unundate the senate and congressional offices with it immediately after the election and ongoing, it will have an effect, i think it already has with the ones they’ve gotten in so far so lets flood them to the greatest extent that we can.

      Jake you’ll see from the declaration, its a preliminary demand, based on the original Declaration of Independence, giving them the basic concepts of what we expect them to do and designed to exacerbate the existing fear in the political establishment of the population in order to try and motivate them to do so, if they get hit with enough of them, then i think it might be all we need as well but that’s going to have to be a massive amount. It will coincide with what mike is working on which is obviously much more detailed, but if we can just seize control for and establish the what, then that can be used to put forth ideas toward the how.

      I don’t think what we end up with will be specifically anything which any one of us has been proposing here, but as long as we can just kill the banks and restore control of the currency to the people in some manner, it can work, we’ll have to work on refining it from there if necessary through our representatives once we actually have them acting in our interests instead of banks, so is an initial step toward accomplishing many more.

      Mike and me have exchanged contact information as well, so i expect we’ll be talking in the next day or two, have a lot going on here today but i’ll try calling him tomorrow if he doesn’t call me first.

      • David,

        Can you pls post this petition again. Can´t find it.

        On Skype now with Mike, why don´t you join.


  • I repost this reply i gave to Citizen in the other forum:

    Citizen, as i said you clearly have no idea what MPE stands for. I will try to explain it as simple as possible.

    MPE is a currency (our public medium of exchange) not subject to interest and backed by our labor/production/products or anything else we are capable of.

    That´s it.

    Anyone objecting to this is either a banker, or just plain stupid.

    Moreover, I think that you guys are making the same set of MISTAKEN assumptions, about Mathematically Perfected Economy, that many are making, BECAUSE OF THE NAME.

    Here is what people think: When they hear the name—Mathematically Perfected Economy— visions of a Hungarian Central Planner enter into their head. …But that’s just a misintepretation/false assumption.

    What I think has happened here, is that you guys have made the same mistakes that many people once made. Well. Ignorance, once cured, returns for no good reason. So, here is what Mathematically Perfected Economy REALLY IS:

    (1) Principals for loans, are created out of thin air, as debt. …Our current monetary regime does this anyway.
    (2) But the loans are interest-free. …Why would you pay somebody big bucks to do something that you could do for yourself, for nothing?
    (3) The ELIXUR: Loans are paid back, and the money is RETIRED from the circulation, in a time-based manner which is the mirror-image of the depreciation of the product. Why? So there can be no inflation or deflation. …And, yeah, I know that stuff happens.
    (4) Otherwise, there is NO government intervention in markets! No central planning. No regulations or manipulations or market distortions—-the invisible hand rule the day.

    Here is a simple example: A car dealer decides to lend you money for a car which free markets have decided is worth $20,000. And this car will last for 10 years. This car will depreciate in value in a linear, straight-line fashion—-that is, it will lose, on average, $2,000 in value per year.

    (1) $20,000 are created out of thin air as debt.
    (2) The car dealer recieves $20,000—-a trade of equal measures of production in exchange for equal measures of production. Why? Because the invisible hand says so. That’s why.
    (3) $2,000 per year are retired from the circulation as the loan is paid back untill, in ten years, ALL $20,000 have been retired from the circulation.

    The result: After year 1, there is $18,000 left in circulation, and the car is worth $18,000. After year 5, there is $10,000 in circulation, and the car is worth $10,000. And so on and so on.

    Get it? Under Mathematically Perfected Economy, (1) There is always enough money created out of thin air to cause full employment—-there is always full employment. (2) But, at the same time, there is always, on average, an inflation rate of ZERO. (3) And there is no more business cycle.

    Well, now you know. And you guys are making the same exact mistakes that many people originally made.