Henry Ford once said, “It is well that the people of the nation do not understand our banking and monetary system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning.”
Are you confused by all the talk about monetary policy, fiat money and inflation? You’re not alone. Bankers and politicians have worked hand in hand for many decades to obscure their activities from the public. They hide behind elaborate structures designed to inflate the money supply while creating the false impression that they are looking out for our best interests.
Inflation is a very simple concept to understand: More money = less value. It may seem contradictory but it’s very straightforward.
For illustration purposes, join me on a brief journey of the imagination. One beautiful morning, you wake up and realize that you own twice as much cash as you had just last night. Magic money elves entered your home and bank account and simply doubled your entire cash assets. You’re now twice as wealthy (or half as poor as the case may be).
But you soon realize that the same thing happened to everyone else in the country. The money supply (total amount of money) has doubled! It’s just a one-time event and your regular income remains the same… you just got lucky this one time. It’s okay to dream, so stay with me.
What happens next? If you’re like most people, you probably start spending. You buy things you always wanted to buy but couldn’t afford. You pay back some debts. You buy stocks. In other words, you put the new money into circulation. So do most other people in the country.
Demand for many products increases because a lot more people can afford them now. Consumers are buying so much stuff that some shortages occur. To protect themselves against these shortages, shops and businesses decide to increase their prices. They know that once prices go up, fewer people will be competing to buy the same products, and the situation will be back to normal.
As a side effect of these higher prices, shop owners start earning higher profits than usual. They have more money in their bank accounts, which allows them to increase their spending. They will invest in new stock or expand their business. They might pay out dividends to their investors and bonuses to their employees, allowing these people to buy more products as well. This additional demand puts even more pressure on other shops to increase their prices.
A few months later, prices of almost everything have gone up. Suppliers and manufacturers are faced with the same threat of too much sudden demand from their clients so they too decide to start charging more.
You went on a one-time buying spree and look what happened! Your income stayed the same, but after a few weeks you can suddenly no longer afford the products you used to buy all the time because all prices in the economy have gone up.
Naturally, you demand a higher salary from your employer. If you’re self-employed or in business, you have to charge your customers more money just so that you can maintain your standard of living. Everyone else is in the same situation. Higher prices keep spreading throughout the entire economy, and it’s getting more and more difficult to make a living.
Can you see how this lucky one-time incident which at first seemed so exciting was extremely harmful not just for you but for the entire country? You briefly had a good time but now you’re worse off than before. In our story there are now twice as many dollars in circulation, but your income remains the same and each dollar you earn is worth only about half as much as it used to be. You’re really hoping for those money elves to come back.
As a matter of fact, some people, companies and banks have managed to develop an inside connection to the “money elves”, allowing them to receive new money into their bank accounts whenever they want to. The money is officially a loan (credit), but they know they never have to pay it back… they just “roll it over”, i.e. take up even more debt. With all that easy money in their accounts, and after hearing on TV that stocks only go up and that real estate prices will continue to rise forever, they tend to get a bit lightheaded and start making bad investment decisions. They know that if anything happens to their investments they will be bailed out by the government, so they do not hesitate to take huge risks with their new found “wealth”.
Let’s stop dreaming and look at the reality of things. What if I told you that these “money elves” do exist and that they spring into action not just once in a lifetime, but every couple of weeks? And that they repeatedly give money to their closest friends, but not to you? That prices are going up because the total amount of money in circulation increases, but that you’re missing out on all the fun?
Well, that’s inflation at work. Who benefits from inflation? Only those who are at the top of the pyramid and receive all that new money directly from the source. As you might have guessed by now, the source is the Federal Reserve, and its recipients include the government which “borrows” a lot of new money each year, without any intention of ever paying it back. Another beneficiary these days are failed banks that are being “bailed out” for the good of the “economy”, or defense contractors that receive money to build up our military so we can have a constant presence all over the world and fight never-ending and unnecessary wars. There was even a huge number of small-time beneficiaries who received consumer loans and sub-prime mortgages they would never be able to pay back.
What, then, is fiat money? It’s exactly what we just talked about: money that can be inflated or increased at the push of a button at the say-so of a powerful person or organization. Nowadays most dollars are just blips on a computer screen and it’s extremely easy for the Federal Reserve to create money out of thin air whenever they want to.
If our money were backed by gold and silver, people couldn’t just sit in some fancy building and push a button to create new money. They would have to engage in honest trade with another party that already has some gold in their possession. Alternatively, they would have to risk their lives and assets to find a suitable spot to build a gold mine, then get dirty and sweaty and actually dig up the gold. Not something I can imagine our “money elves” at the Fed getting down to whenever they feel like playing God with the economy.
As you can see, inflation and fiat money are very seductive and beneficial to those at the top, and very dangerous to everyone else and the nation as a whole. That’s exactly what Henry Ford was talking about. He knew that every country that relies too much on fiat money is ruined sooner rather than later.
There is only one possible solution to the inflation problem: Stop creating money out of thin air. But we’re already in such a mess that the only way to have a real impact on the money supply is to increase interest rates so that people pay back their loans and borrow less money from the banks, which decreases the amount of money in circulation. However, higher interest rates might very well crash the economy. So the Fed’s current “solution” to overcoming inflation is… creating even more of it.
Fiat money is a dangerous addiction. Even if the Fed found a way to stop inflation, as long as the current system persists the temptation will always be there to resume pushing the easy money button. That’s why we need to get back on the gold standard and eliminate the Federal Reserve altogether.
But that won’t happen “before tomorrow morning”, as Henry Ford said, or even this year. Ron Paul believes that the first step towards monetary freedom is to allow open competition in currencies. Once gold and silver are allowed as legal tender and can be sold without sales tax, everyone can use them to store their wealth and to pay for the things they want to buy. The Federal Reserve will finally have a very compelling motivation to stay honest and maintain the value of the dollar because if they don’t, they will simply lose all their customers.
Ron Paul has been an advocate of the gold standard and open competition in currencies for many years. He is the Federal Reserve’s most outspoken opponent in Congress and has frequently questioned Alan Greenspan and Ben Bernanke about the Fed’s actions.
Join the Ron Paul Revolution and help us put the Fed where it belongs: into the history books and out of our financial lives.
More Information
Thomas Jefferson and Andrew Jackson understood “The Monster”. But to most Americans today, the Federal Reserve is just a name on the dollar bill. They have no idea of what the central bank does to the economy, or to their own economic lives; of how and why it was founded and operates; or of the sound money and banking that could end the statism, inflation, and business cycles that the Fed generates.
Dedicated to Murray N. Rothbard, steeped in American history and Austrian economics, and featuring Ron Paul, Joseph Salerno, Hans Hoppe, and Lew Rockwell, this extraordinary new film is the clearest, most compelling explanation ever offered of the Fed, and why curbing it must be our first priority.
In this 1988 interview, Ron Paul talks about money, banking and the Federal Reserve, and predicts the current financial crisis.
Show: American Power Structure
Date: August 1988
Explanation of Fiat Money:
Here’s an amazing introduction to the history of the US dollar:
The American Dream Film:
Ron Paul Money Lecture Series — “What is Money?”
Regarding your inflation scenario… “One beautiful morning, you wake up and realize that you own twice as much cash as you had just last night. Magic money elves entered your home and bank account and simply doubled your entire cash assets. ”
The reality is, you, or I, don’t ever benefit by doubling, or even increasing your cash assets. Our cash assets remain exactly the same, it is the large banks and other institutions that receive the newly-created “money” in their possession, while it still has the same purchasing power as your money, and they reap the benefits of this purchasing power – not you or I. As these banks and institutions spend and loan this new money into circulation, the increased money supply causes prices to rise – more dollars chasing the same goods and services – and you and I slowly pay more for items, making our dollars worth less and less. We don’t ever keep up with this through equivalent increases in our incomes, and therefore slowly sink in net worth away from true middle class status.Of course, as the dollar becomes worth less and less in the market place, the banks cash net worth appears to shrink also, however they have benefited mightily on the front-end “bubble” by being able to acquire real hard assets at pre-inflationary prices, using their freshly acquired dollars that have not been adjusteddownwards to inflation yet.Since 1913 the US Dollar has lost 97% of its purchasing power, and every single bit of that loss was absorbed by the dwindling and unprotected middle class
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@drw729your cash assetts are just doubly taxed when they double. There is no answer to this unless gold, silver and platinum are refuted as standards. The only thing that can be used is the supply and demand medium at which you can not live without food and water. If you have oil, I can trade you or I can wait for you to die of starvation and then take what you have. But lets be civilized about it and trade a pint of water for a pint of oil. Or shall you just drink your oil. Good luck growing some meat and veg.
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@holden602@drw729
Money is a medium of exchange, nothing more, nothing less. You can trade water for oil or sugar for bullets, but those things are not commonly exchangable or divisible in a Free Market.
So what IS your problem with using solid prescious metals as a Store of Value and Medium of Exchange?
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HEY!
WEBMASTER… GET IT FIXED!
P L E E E E A S E !!!!!
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RETURN to gold and silver coin as legal tender and get the Government out of the Banking business and thinks will get much better in very short order.
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PEOPLE… Ron Paul IS all about Honest Money / Commodity Money
Ending the FED is the first step in a long journey of reforms to
Return to Treasury minted prescious metal coin as Legal Tender
Restoring the power ot the money back to the citizens
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The best blog site on Sound-Hoest Money on the entire WWW
STILL BROKEN….?
Come guys… get it fixed!!!!!
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COMMODITY MONEY… there is NO other solution !
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It likely that the USD will last only another 5 years or less.
Some believe the dollars collapse will happen after the 2012 Election when Obama is a Lame Duck president.
No one know the timing for sure, but no one can doubt that it WILL collapse
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@Citizen
it will help the world and US if they get Ron Paul in as Prez. Dont think they will do it cause most Yanks are not smart enough, they want to vote for the young stupid guys.
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@holden602@Citizen
I’m afraid your right… Ron Paul is not a Populist candidate.
AND
He does not support the Military Industrial Complex, that’s where the money is to get elected…
Hey… but we can Dream can’t we?
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As a Ron Paul supporter and Non American, I am in complete favour of a return to the Gold System. Too many times here In New Zealand, we have been a victim of the federal reserves greed, that causes mayhem Worldwide. It is time America went back to its golden years and become World leader in democracy and fairness.
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Poor Ron Paul is clearly out of touch with even another topic in economics. We tried the gold standard and it didn’t work. The reason is that tying the money supply to how much gold has been found causes wild business cycles creating disaster for many people as they watch their life’s savings getting wiped out. During the Great Depression, the Fed was unable to ease credit because of this restriction, thereby prolonging the mess we were in.
Ron, please go to college and take at least a few courses in economics. Try two in macro-economics and two in micro-economics at a minimum. I wish all politicians would do this and it should be a requirement for your position. By spouting your uneducated nonsense, you do our country a terrible disservice. In fact, you are downright dangerous.
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@madcowyou are an idiot.
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@madcow
btw, Spent too much time in the chatroom of your local community college? Gladly debate you on any economic subject of your choice, especially this one. Pick your poison,
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@madcow
Try not drinking the Keynesian Kool-Aid for a day or so, just maybe you’ll sober up…
Unrestrained credit fiat money creation and debt is precisely why we are in this MESS!
The Gold Standard…. RESTRAINS the political theft!
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Excellent explanation, sir. I imagine that this information is a bit risky to bring to light. We, as a country, have been divided and lied to. I feel relieved that you are behaving as an intelligent human being, and not as a politician. The difference between the two? The former understands that if one of us falls, we all will follow shortly after. The latter allows the promises of “party loyalty” and the spoils of victory to cloud their judgement in the ever-present battle between what benefits a man, and what benefits a nation. So long as you maintain the admirable standards of honesty and objectivity, you secure the support of not only myself, but all who understand the big picture. We will stand together, or we will fall separately.
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Is this blog site is broken…?
TESTING post 10-19-11
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Here’s another version: http://www.dailypaul.com/183587/why-end-the-fed
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Forward this if you like it: http://orinje.com/threads/262076-Why-End-the-Fed
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A thorough explanation of our current banking industry and how our money is actually debt.
http://youtu.be/Dc3sKwwAaCU
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A thorough explanation of our current monetary system and how our money is debt
http://youtu.be/Dc3sKwwAaCU
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Au contrere mon frere, gold and silver have been the norm for ANY currency for 6,000 years!
The treasury department would control the silver and gold, like they are constitutionally
empowered to do so; AFTER the Federal Reserve System is COMPLETELY dismantled.
As far as “we” having any gold left; I doubt it! But, I don’t think the founding fathers came into
all that they did with a mountain of gold. They started from scratch; just like we are going to
have to do!
Louisiana Creole
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@anarchist
why not base everything on supply and demand? They have oil, ok, we have water and food.
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@anarchist
The FED has taken our gold as collateral for our DEBT!
Might I suggest that..
WE THE PEOPLE must “repudiate” the Federal Reserve Currency and
TAKE BACK our gold?
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I love Ron Paul I really do. But we CAN NOT go back to a gold based currency. Now, just as then, our country will still fail. The only proper way we can become debt free from the Fed or any of the other centralized banks is to resurrect the old Green Back system President Lincoln established. All of the currency is controlled by the government and only with the rise of population is there a rise on how much is in circulation. To back a currency with gold is to give power to those who have the means to buy gold. The bankers have all the money and in turn will have all the gold. Putting us right back where we started
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@just a guy
I think he is trying to make a point. We have to go back to when the US produced all of the products that the world wanted before we kicked their ass and empowered them to overtake us in technology. The “gold standard” thing is just to make sure we are competitive. Do you think he or anyone could change that in a single (or double) term in office?
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@just a guy you are so right
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If we are to legalize competition in the currency market how do we deal with the threat of counterfeiting?
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@austrianschool101No need to worry about counterfeiting…. Commodity money is virtually “fool proof”
Real money doesn’t need explanation or defense
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illegal immigrants closer to 20 m get 280 a week thats 293,280,000,000 yr not counting benefits and if i pop out a kid do you seperate me and my child. takev the child with you or yes we seperate them sounds harsh but you decide i didn’t i just gave you options.i’m for 3 fences between each fence a group of windmills every 100′ with generators keeping them running at good speed. middle fence elecrtricuted and 3rd fence guarded by servicemen 20,000. 5,000 troops in cities at first to clean them up we impound and sell drugs to mexicans money goes to education year round schooling giving a 6th grader right to choose a major and pick classes math and english mandatory avg student has bachelor degree in 12 years. no more loans grants free living no illegals getting free education that we pd. for.
only president needs to travel and that should be limited he has his hands full here. i believe in just 2 comments i solved our debt crisis its tough love rich are paying for mess they caused. kharma. now i would flea bargain debt right now the world is thinking we’re going under they will take 50% cash as settlement and bringing jobs as ron paul has said puts us in the black
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Hey Everybody!
Did you see the article on Ron Paul.com about the Florida 5 poll results?
“Ron Paul came in a strong fifth at the Republican Party of Florida’s Presidency 5 straw poll in Orlando, Florida. After winning last week’s California straw poll with 44.9% of the vote, the Congressman did not make a personal appearance at this weekend’s “GOP establishment” event as he had traveled to Baton Rouge, Louisiana, on Friday to open a new campaign office and speak to a massive crowd of supporters at Louisiana State University.
The Presidency 5 straw poll was overwhelmingly won by former Federal Reserve Bank of Kansas City Chairman Herman Cain, who convincingly edged out former frontrunner Rick Perry. Perry had poured massive resources into the straw poll, hoping to prove that his campaign was not going down in flames after his disastrous performance in Thursday’s Google / Fox News debate. Even though the Texas governor ended up with only 15.4% of the vote, he did manage to narrowly beat his rival Mitt Romney, who gained 14%.
=============================
Herman Cain was the Chairman of the Kansas City Federal Reserve branch?
That is what THIS web site has published… check it out.
Plus candidate Herman Cain is for the Gold Standard !!!
He is on tape REPEATING it at near the end of Thursday night’s debate in Florida, when Jon Huntsman approved of his gold color tie (both candidates were wearing gold ties) and Herman Cain agreed they are both for a gold standard.
Holy Conspiracy Theory… Citizen ~ Jim.
Former Fed Chairman wants gold standard NOW.
To complete part two (deflation) of Jefferson’s famous warning!
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Former Chairman of the Kansas City Federal Reserve branch he was!
http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2011/05/herman-cain-federal-reserve-chairman-tea-party-champion/239519/
It was speculated that there would be interesting debate between Cain and Paul, but that has not been the case, as Cain is claiming the gold standard now. Interesting conversion or subterfuge? Hmmmmmmmm……….
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Here is more about the gold standard:
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2010/12/28/herman_cain_return_to_the_gold_standard.html
Straight from the man’s own mouth… NOW the former Chairman of the Kansas City Federal Reserve branch wants to switch to the gold standard.
Incredible… wonder what Citizen has to say about that?
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Probably call me a Marxist Conspiracy Theorist or something along that line, but that would only validate other arguments against him. But really man… holy f#%&… Thomas Jefferson’s warning ring a bell?
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Politician’s say whatever they need to play on populist emotions.
What’s not to understand.
Sure they all agree that the FED is the culprit…
SO WHAT?
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LOL, you nimrod, of course he is SAYING that. He’s a politician, he is perfectly aware that people are fed up with the fed.
The real question is, does he REALLY BELIEVE it?
Duh, politicians always SAY what they think the people want to hear. Just look at Obama. Hope and change. Bring home the troops. Yeah, he said it, but it sure DIDN’T happen.
Just in general, haven’t you even noticed how all the candidates are sounding more and more like Ron Paul? It’s just lip service.
Ron Paul is the ONLY ONE who believes what he says.
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The republicans are fighting a battle on two fronts, although, they really shouldn’t be.
On one front, they want a republican as president.
On the other front, they are fighting to keep Ron Paul out of it.
They really aren’t different than democrats though. They do however, have to play the game to maintain the illusion of two parties.
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Herman Cain Exposed… used to be chairman of federal reserve… have a listen… they say all winners at Florida end of Presidents… can this be whats in store for 2012?
http://theintelhub.com/2011/05/08/herman-cain-exposed-no-need-to-audit-the-federal-reserve/
Herman Cain says no need to audit the Fed and let’s switch to a gold standard. So the Fed guys don’t want to be audited, but want to switch back to gold. Hmmmm……. INDEED.
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I can not simply dismiss what this guy is saying. We have it on video, conflicting positions, no to audit, yes to restore gold standard.
How about keeping it private, run by the Fed?
Cain is not calling for ending the Fed, just restoring the gold standard and by the way… you can’t audit the Fed either. The more one digs into this, the more it truly does look like the prophecy that Jefferson foretold after Hamilton created the privately owned First Bank of the United States in 1791.
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Yes, Herman worked for the fed. I don’t believe a darn thing he says.
Let’s say you and a few of your friends, embarked upon a shady enterprise, that robbed millions of people and enriched you and your buddies.
Now lets say that on the horizon, there exists the threat of those people finding out just how bad you robbed them. Wouldn’t you rather change the subject or the focus from what methods you used to rob them to something else? When a big dog is chasing you, toss a bone to distract him.
You certainly wouldn’t want them to audit you and find out just how bad it really was.
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and Ron is the only one that hasn’t changed positions on every issue just to see if it made him more popular. I am a lifeong Independent voter that has always voted for an independent or a democrat but I firmly believe that RP is the only person with a soution that I can deal with. First time Rep. voter and proud of it as long as this party is smart enough to vote for him.
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Curious,
SAYS
“Stimulus Money = WEALTH REDISTRIBUTION.
WHERE do you think all that money is going?
In the pockets of the poor? THINK about it…
Snuff ‘Nuff said…
No, not really….it went into the pockets of the wealthy banksters (your favorites)
and devalued the money in YOUR pocket….
The poor and middle class get screwed regularly
Wealth RE-Distribution MEANS from the Have-Nots to the Haves!
definitely not to the poor….
That’s what Fiat Paper Money is FOR!!
Its for taking YOUR money silly!
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More info.
http://www.thenewamerican.com/history/american/516
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And another. Not sure about the whole article, but it brings out the fact that GOLD, is the REAL money of the world.
http://www.dailyreckoning.com.au/hard-currency/2008/01/10/
And another.
http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Investing/ContrarianChronicles/who-needs-dollars-when-we-have-gold.aspx
Another.
http://www.cnbc.com/id/44503188/Central_Banks_Can_Fail_Should_Return_To_Gold_Standard_Asset_Manager
And even more.
http://blogcritics.org/politics/article/a-return-to-the-gold-standard/
http://moneymorning.com/2011/07/12/why-the-u-s-should-return-to-the-gold-standard-even-though-it-wont/
http://useconomy.about.com/od/monetarypolicy/p/gold_standard.htm
http://truthalliance.net/Archive/News/tabid/67/ID/7923/Switzerland-Considering-Return-To-A-Gold-Backed-Currency.aspx
http://articles.latimes.com/2011/jun/03/business/la-fi-gold-standard-20110603
Gold is the backup currency in every age of history. FACT.
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Dear Jim;
Thank you for your apology. Perhaps this article I worte last year and published by ‘End The Fed’ will help you understand my position.
===================
The Case for Paper Currency
http://endthefedusa.ning.com/profiles/blogs/the-case-for-paper-currency
Offer a toddler a choice between a nickel in one hand and a dime in the other and he/she will usually choose the nickel because it’s bigger, not realizing the that dime is worth twice as much. This is one example of how appearances can be (and are) deceiving. In this example the only matter of importance is the value of the dime over the nickel without regard for the substance of either. Who knows or cares about the metal content of a coin? All that matters is its comparative value in trade.
Advocates of gold and silver coinage and certificates demonstrate that they have learned nothing from the lessons of history. The gold stored in Amstel Bauer’s vault was the basis of fractional reserve banking when he leveraged this supply by lending out more certificates at interest than there was gold to back them. One only has to regard the global economic conditions of today to see where that leads. Silver is no better; being cheaper and more plentiful than gold makes no difference, as the same temptation to hoard and manipulate would still be present. The flaw in any system based on precious metals is the same: a currency based on a commodity itself becomes a commodity, and the desire to store up great quantities of such currency competes with the overall consumption of goods and services in regular trade.
Gold Bugs and advocates of silver dismiss paper currencies as being worthless but that is the very reason why paper is the best choice. A currency should have no intrinsic value of its own, but should serve only as a facilitator of commerce. Dollars have served very well in that role over time, even the admittedly worthless Federal Reserve Notes. People exchange these notes for goods and services without regard for backing, as there clearly is none. Modern technology is now at the point where durable paper, design, and anti-counterfeiting measures can be had very inexpensively and can greatly reduce the cost of producing a stable, tamper proof paper currency.
The effectiveness of a currency has nothing whatsoever to do with its material composition but rather with its conditions of issue. A viable currency should be inexpensively produced, be unencumbered by debt, should not be valued relative to any material standard, and should be produced in quantities proportional to the economic necessities of the demographic it serves. Taking these particulars one at a time, the first item is fairly self evident: that a paper currency can be produced more simply and at a lower cost than hard coinage in silver or gold, which would require securing these metals in quantity, the fabrication of dies, and stamping machinery to produce the coins. Beside being cumbersome to handle in large amounts, the possibility of fraud would be an ever-present concern. The costs would be prohibitive.
The second item, a debt free currency, would thwart the predatory banking practices by which labor and capital are burdened by usurious, parasitic claims on the collective wealth. The proper role of banks should be to administer rather than control a currency, to serve as safe repositories of community wealth, and to attract deposits by offering reasonable interest rates on deposits and lending money at rates sufficient to meet their normal operating expenses. Banks should be not-for-profit, privately held institutions, whose operations would depend upon efficient management and sound banking principle.
Thirdly, a currency should not be valued respecting any material standard (gold, silver) as fluctuations in the price of these commodities would impose an artificial value on the currency and open the way to devaluation, inflation, and inordinate business cycles. The value of a currency should be determined by free market exchanges consistent with the laws of supply and demand.
Finally, the volume of currency should be adequate to the needs of commerce proportional to the population of the market area. The quantity of cash required by a demographic would, like water, seek its own level. As our concern here is to replace a bankrupt, debt based monetary system with a progressive, stable, and debt free model, the introduction of a new currency would entail the displacement of the old. Thus the new currency would be purchased using current dollars at a discount. Example: one community dollar (Collar) = $0.90. This would serve as a further incentive to make the trade.
Fundamental to any discussion of this kind must be the subject values. In earlier writings I made the point that money is anything that has value: to further sharpen this point it is necessary to define exactly what kind of value this is. In the case of money the value is intrinsic, as opposed to currency which has only practical value. Article 1,Section 8, of the US Constitution gives the Congress the responsibility to “coin money and the regulate the value thereof.” When this document was written money was gold and silver, and this is key to complete understanding. What gave these metals their intrinsic value over time was the fact that people valued them for their decorative qualities; religious totems and personal adornments.Today these latent values have been expanded by their usage in the field of electronics, as conductors, contacts, and various uses in the space program. Thus the intrinsic value of these metals settles on the fact that they may be used to make things.
Currency, on the other hand, has only practical value. An example of this proposition would be a simple can opener. The purchase price is its Retail Value, the sum of the cost of manufacture and a profit for the producer. The can opener has no intrinsic value because once purchased it has no resale value except possibly in a yard sale for 25 to 50 cents. But the can opener has a practical value because it opens cans and can be used in that capacity for years. Comparing currencies and can openers might seem outlandish at first, but they share a common purpose in that they facilitate acquisition. The only difference is in scope: the can opener releases the contents of the can, currency releases a commodity from seller to buyer in a wide range of applications.
Aside from food, clothing, and shelter, all commodities have assigned values. The value of a commodity is determined by the desire of a person to own the good for a variety of reasons. Collectors value coins, stamps, and art works for their rarity, beauty, and by some only for the anticipated appreciation in value of these items. The value of collectibles is conventional: that is, the value of a rare item of this kind is assessed by the group of collectors, by consensus, and not subjectively as in practically all other exchanges. Exchanges of this kind and of similarly expensive commodities would have to be done in Dollars as the scope of such trades would be well beyond the capacity of a community currency.
The main function of an expandable paper currency would be to establish exchange values for basic items of necessity and to organize the fixed assets of an area into productive channels of activity. By shifting commerce from Dollars to a local currency, the reduced dependency on Fed notes would result in fewer taxes imposed as community currencies would not be recognized by the government as legitimate currency. Bans on the use of such currencies would be difficult to impose and impossible to enforce not only on the basis of basic human rights, but by the fact that the vast majority of those charged with enforcing such Draconian ordinances would benefit from the new system. With states, counties, cities, and towns suffering under drastic cutbacks in basic services, a new local currency would provide an attractive alternative to business as usual. Unemployment cannot be adequately addressed by the mere creation of jobs, but by the organization of assets; land, structures, machinery, raw materials – things of real value, ergo money. As many of the unemployed are tradesmen, carpenters, plumbers, and the like, a community paper currency that can be readily expanded will bring fresh incentives to build small businesses of every description. Sheriffs’ departments and local police forces would benefit from the creation of new jobs, at first augmented by the community currency, and at length being entirely supported by it. This would enable law enforcement officers to do their sworn duty to protect the citizens of their locales without the strictures imposed by the government as blackmail for federal funds. The idea at first would be to introduce the new currency to spare the use of Dollars for basic necessities, thereby stretching Dollar based budgets to apply to areas not yet covered by the community currency. In every instance the deciding factor will be the fifty sovereign states, specifically the creation of state banks patterned after the Bank of North Dakota.
Getting rid of the Federal Reserve will only be possible by displacement, a process that has been in use for decades. It’s a solution that has been hidden in plain sight all this time and which employs a currency that doesn’t register as such in most peoples’ minds. Store and manufacturers’ coupons. As these pieces of paper are spent in lieu of dollars so can an alternative currency do the same but on a much broader scale.
Let’s get into action on the grand scale. Our first objective should be to endorse an alternative currency rather than community currency, one design that fits all the requirements for a debt free currency regardless the community. We need to pull the separate programs together into a rational whole and put the people back in the driver’s seat with a true currency of the people, by the people, and for the people. Only in that way can we effectively get rid of the legalized counterfeiting of the corrupt Ponzi scheme that is the Federal Reserve.
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Sounds like creating a micro state economy.
Competing currency, and laws that allow that, would help the people. Might as well allow gold and silver to circulate as well, couldn’t hurt right?
Let the people decide what they want to use for exchange.
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I never precluded gold or silver, Jim, my objection is forced use of such by making gold and silver legal tender. By all means, let the people decide. Those who insist on gold will soon realize their own folly as other businessmen who accept the more widely held currency get far more customers.
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How do you solve inflation and deflation?
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Stop Inflation by Ending the FED’s easy credit money creation…
Booms are a deliberate policy of Central Banks to PUMP flash money into the economy
Deflation is the antithesis of Inflation… get rid of the the Inflation and there is no CORRECTION… deflation.
Prices Changes in Commodities CAN NOT be gotten rid of
or “SOLVED”
as you presume needs to be accomplished by Fiscal Authority!!
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Dear George,
“The Case for Paper Currency”
The history of gold and silver coinage had problems as does any currency, but not nearly the the magnitude of abuses precipitated by government’s that force paper notes as legal tender.
When the population resists higher taxes, invariably the governments turn to monetizing their debts by abusive printing and value dilution.
The goldsmiths/banksters found that they could deceive depositors and borrowers alike by fractional reserve banking schemes. Essentially lending money they don’t have at interest. The fact the FED has raised this thievery to a fine art speaks volumes for terminating this practice.
Frac Res Banking is a license to steal, to charge up to 9 times the actual value on deposit.
“”a currency based on a commodity itself becomes a commodity, and the desire to store up great quantities of such currency competes with the overall consumption of goods and services in regular trade.”"
***********
Hoarding by a few anal bankers is a weak rational for promoting paper currencies. While I concur that hoarding is a disagreeable character flaw, it’s hardly a basis for monetary policy… more a wealth envy issue.
“”dismiss paper currencies as being worthless but that is the very reason why paper is the best choice. A currency should have no intrinsic value of its own”"
*************
Ya I’ve heard that argument too, saying it should only be worth what government says it’s worth. Only problem being that elections happen every 4 years and every new regime has a different agenda and opinion on how much more is worth. Generally they ALL print as much as needed to pay off their political debts.
“”should serve only as a facilitator of commerce.”"
******************
Well George, “facilitate commerce” regardless of the real market conditions and actual consumer demand. I think Bawney Fwank thought the same thing and he sponsored the Sub-Prime housing catastrophe. And Solyndra is another example of a political agenda gone wrong…called a “green economy”. A boondoggle sponsored by Tax Payer money…
So what RESTRAINS this sort of Mal-Investment using other peoples money… or worse, just printing it and diluting retirement savings of the frugal?
Not withstanding your re-defining what money is…saying that it…
“should be produced in quantities proportional to the economic necessities of the demographic it serves.”"
And that’s been the problem all along… a subjective political agenda and Who determines the “Economic Necessities”, not market demand, rather political supply.
1. “paper currency can be produced more simply and at a lower cost…”
**********
expensive dies and stamping machines are in fact a positive factor defeating more flimsy attempts at fraud.
2. debt free currency, would thwart the predatory banking practices”
***********
I concur, governments SHOULD NOT exceed (spend more) then the taxes they collect. But that’s really where we Austrian Economists depart from you Keynesians who advocate Printing as much as is Politically Expedient.
So what part of a $1.6 Trillion deficit spending heroin habit escapes you?
Thus an Austrian Economist would advocate…
Minting Coins from revenues collected in taxes… in the order of magnitude of 3%-4% of GDP annually to guarantee an adequate growth of the money supply.
Government currently collects $2.4 Trillion of our $14 Trillion economy…
Or about 17% of GDP
But BIG GOVERNMENT STATISTS believe they need an additional $1.6 Trillion of “borrowed money” or another 11.4% to keep the Welfare and Warfare State running smoothly…
QUESTION:
Mr. Reese…when is there enough printing of money that
“should be produced in quantities proportional to the economic necessities of the demographic it serves.”"
ANSWER: I, as an Austrian Economist, suggest that an economy growing at 3%-4% should be more than sufficient for reasonable economic growth…And that if Government purchased that much in bullion to mint coins, from “Tax Collections” money would be spent INTO circulation and would keep pace with the healthy economic growth…
QUESTION:
What’s wrong with that model??
3rd.
“currency should not be valued respecting any material standard (gold, silver) as fluctuations in the price of these commodities would impose an artificial value on the currency and open the way to devaluation, inflation”
*************
I disagree… everything changes in value, the only constant is change… Mike Montagne promotes this same notion that money should have an “immutable value”.
That begs the question…. immutable against WHAT?
Other commodities?,
Manufactured goods?
Labor?
How is that possible….
Cotton and peanuts have risen in fiat paper terms 200% since 2009
Precious Metals have likewise risen
Hey but big screen monitors have dropped in half over the same time frame?
QUESTION:
Are you suggesting that we FIX the prices of all goods, services and labor?
YOU SAY
” The value of a currency should be determined by free market exchanges consistent with the laws of supply and demand.”
*******
Supply and Demand for the currency?
Money Traders speculate all day long to skim the profits…
What makes a valueless paper currency any more or less susceptible to currency traders than bullion traders??
Is the fact that Switzerland pegged their Franc to the Euro last week to stop its gaining strength and slow its loss of trade with it’s European neighbors.
The fact that ECB is printing the euro like there’s no tomorrow has nothing to do with that??
“As our concern here is to replace a bankrupt, debt based monetary system with a progressive, stable, and debt free model,”"
***********
I’m sorry George… it won’t work any different than what we have.
Issuing (printing) paper money even “debt free” simply dilutes the currency held by the population, inflating the supply, reduces its purchasing power, and debases the citizen’s wealth. Transferring wealth to a politically preferred class at the expense of another less preferred
“Article 1,Section 8, of the US Constitution gives the Congress the responsibility to “coin money and the regulate the value thereof.” When this document was written money was gold and silver”
**********
BUT not because of the primitive tribal reasons you attribute to it.
“decorative qualities; religious totems and personal adornments”
NO, because of its uniformity, durability, divisibility, compact size and not counterfeitable
The “intrinsic” value rests in its undisputed durability and recognizable character… no matter what form it’s beaten into bullion metals retain their value. Not so for ink and paper!
“The main function of an expandable paper currency would be to establish exchange values for basic items of necessity and to organize the fixed assets of an area into productive channels of activity.”
***********
Now you’re talking like a true Marxist,
“to organize the fixed assets …. into productive channels of activity”
Well said comrade! A planned economy, organized by the politburo Commissar.
You know… someone who is “politically” smarter than you or I.
I like your idea of Community Currencies… DE-Centralized money.
States should Mint their own Coin currency as Legal Tender.
It doesn’t matter what is stamped on it, just that it’s of common Weight and Purity “regulate the value thereof”
“Unemployment cannot be adequately addressed by the mere creation of jobs, but by the organization of assets; land, structures, machinery, raw materials ”
*************
Again… another Marxist Das Kapital standard response…
We just need to “organize” other peoples assets to serve the Collective!
States and the Federal Governments should ONLY
MINT COINS of commodity metals
Private Banks can take those private coins (money) and issue notes at 100% reserve value. Make loans, exchange assets with proper full bullion currency backing.
Ending the FED and all private Fractional Reserve schemes will eliminate the majority of the fraud.
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Dear George,
Just “allowing” gold or silver to be used ALONG side of Fiat Paper will permit people to SAVE once again!
Fiat Credit Money Creation IS the sole source of INFLATION. You’re bent on Fiat Paper money is based upon a Socialist view that money creation benefits the poor and down trodden….That’s YOUR error Sir!
Fiat Paper Money transfers power and wealth into the UPPER 10% of the population, striping wealth from those who YOU pretend to defend.
Stop pretending that there is an “Angel Guardians” who are above thieving temptations.
They don’t exist. The Political Powers will always print money to further their corrupt goals.
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Now on TNS Radio. Mike Montagne speaking about MPE. Our public controlled currency/monetary system. The equivalent of barter…
http://tnsradio.ning.com/
Click High Quality player
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This whole current system of monetary policy with paper money, is more than just a transfer of wealth. It is a transfer of self determination.
We are becoming slaves.
In the beginning, a man would put forth effort to produce something of value. Through his own efforts, he bettered HIS situation by his own labor. The product of his labor was then transferable through barter or selling for coinage, thereby enriching his HIS life and family.
He was his own man. Coinage represented the value of his work.
The value was created by his labor to PRODUCE something, and HE gained from his efforts.
That is what money is, it represents the work that he did to produce something of worth.
So, this man through his own efforts, enhances himself and is rewarded for his work. He reaps what he sows. Nobody else is getting the reward for his work. He is self determining. A free man.
What is a slave? A slave is owned by someone else. The work that a slave does, does not go to enhance his position. He does not gain from his efforts, his master does.
By moving away from coinage, and by using paper or electronic means, the wealth and self determination of a man is being taken away. Our NOTION of WHAT money is, has been changing.
Paper now is tied to NOTHING. Remember, money is supposed to represent the work or effort put forth to create a product. A fed note has NO objective definition.
They are in essence, getting rid of money, the real definition of money, and replacing it with something completely worthless. We are basically working for FREE.
We put forth the effort of our labor, we get a worthless piece of paper, that has NO REAL WEALTH. They gain the benefit of OUR labor, and we get a worthless piece of paper.
We work, they benefit.
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Nice try, but paper is not the issue. Franklin proved it. Lincoln proved it. And most importantly, you and the rest of the gold bugs are trying to foist a fraud by claiming gold or silver or any other specie was widely held by free men. BARTER was 99.99999999% of all economic activity under your golden dream. Why is this PROVEN FACT so important? Because under barter, one has no idea if his work will be valued by another, ergo repressed INCENTIVE to work harder than neccessary for simple subsistence. Money changes this equation, but not if you restrict money to some limited commodity. There must be ENOUGH of this commodity to disperse among ALL the workers, or it ARTIFICIALLY ENRICHES the holders of the CHOOSEN commodity in question, it leaves the gold horders to get richer without effort, because the gold can not represent more labor without diminishing labor’s (work’s) purchasing power.
Get it?
I doubt it, for if you did, you wouldn’t be preaching this gold crap!
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Thumbs up!
Have you been listening to Mike Montagne and his MPE?
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Just HOW MUCH gold would I have to ‘hoarde’ to be able to effectively have an impact on the world market price? Or even on a national level?
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LOL
Think BEYOND your own selfish interests WHEN discussing PUBLIC policy. Be as selfish as you desire when limited to you and. your family
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Yeah, right, I was asking that question because I wanted to know how much more gold I needed to corner the market.
I just checked my vault yesterday and only had 7 million pounds of gold.
Got any gold fillings in your teeth? I have pliers.
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it’s impossible to solve inflation OR deflation with a gold standard. If represented wealth is less than the representative reserves, still, no precept prevents you from suffering a circulation exceeding the reserves, particularly if you further subject debts to interest. But this objection is largely only hypothetical, because generally, on the contrary, the real danger is suffering a restricted circulation (deflation). As industry and production tend to grow, you are deprived of the further circulation which you need to sustain that industry, if and when it exceeds the monetary reserves. So the more real (practical) fault is it cannot solve deflation. But even worse, is its further fault, that if it coexists with interest, it can’t solve terminal failure, or perpetual subversion of the *disposition* of the currency, that as interest inherently and irreversibly dedicates ever more of every unit of the circulation to servicing falsified, artificial debts, versus sustaining the desired industry. It means nothing to pretend solution then, unless you have answered for all three faults: inflation, deflation, and disposition.
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The math is very simple: divide the monetary gold on hand by the number of people. In the case of the U.S., reported monetary reserves are $80b, divided by a 300m population = 266$ per capita to do all our business, save for the future, resolve our debts. Thus nonetheless, a “return” to the standard is not just a case which CAN be artificially deflated — but which, so long as representable property exceeds $266 per capita, is a case of PERPETUAL, MONUMENTAL deflation.
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If you would understand the nature of our ¨obfuscated¨ money you would know it is time to sell your gold NOW…..we´re going into a stag-deflationary environment and cash will be king…
Unless there will be QE3,4,5,6,7,8,9,….which I don´t think will happen. They have what they wanted, and they are going to bleed us dry for the next 5-10 years…
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No, they are going to created chaos both monetarily and politically around the world, and use that to force us into a global currency, eventually an electronic global currency. They may go straight for that or use some kind of paper until they go electronic.
All for our own good naturally.
1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord shall so come as a thief in the night.
1Th 5:3 For when they shall say: Peace and security; then shall sudden destruction come upon them, as the pains upon her that is with child, and they shall not escape.
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Oh, and one more thing, funny how which word you use can change the connotation.
Couldn’t you substitute the word ‘save’ for the word ‘hoard?’
Savings are what BUILD capital. Oh, I forgot, we aren’t supposed to save, we are supposed to SPEND.
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I detect a dispicable LIAR… Jim.
You know, Mr, paycheck to paycheck who is not rich!!!
How can such a person SAVE anything?
LIAR
P.S.- Economist have already answered this as the optimum rate of savings being 20%, for the 80% must go back into the economy to PAY other workers. When this does not happen, JOBS disappear… or go to despotic regimes where pseudo-slaves or serfs work for little to nothing but subsistence.
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Did I say I was saving?
Why don’t you first learn to read. Work especially on COMPREHENSION.
I think it would do wonders for you.
Call me a liar because you fail to understand a very simple statement.
I have some names for you. The accuser. The adversary. The spoiler. The slanderer. The father of contention.
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DIS-Honesty ~Paper
“”BARTER was 99.99999999% of all economic activity under your golden dream.”"
******
Hey did you know your 9 key was stuck?
You’re entitle to your opinion… but not your facts, you’ve “proven nothing”
“”Money changes this equation, but not if you restrict money to some limited commodity. There must be ENOUGH of this commodity to disperse among ALL the workers,”"
**********
So your real complaint is that you have lots of Fed Res paper but no silver or gold coin…. well maybe you should just go exchange your paper and get over it!
“”it ARTIFICIALLY ENRICHES the holders of the CHOOSEN commodity in question, it leaves the gold horders to get richer without effort”
**********
OMG, you mean there are RICH PEOPLE in the world who have more stuff than YOU do?
They have more paper money than YOU
They have more houses than YOU
They have more cars than YOU
And they have more SEX than YOU
Well that’s just down right disgusting…
YOU should go take some of their stuff and make it fair!
“because the gold can not represent more labor without diminishing labor’s (work’s) purchasing power.”
*******
Seriously? You believe that Marxist crap!
I thought you compete for the job and save your income and start your own exploitative enterprise and hire other people and exploit their labor?
“Get it?”
*********
NO, I’m pretty sure YOU DON’T!
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LOL@Citizen, too funny.
=====
OMG, you mean there are RICH PEOPLE in the world who have more stuff than YOU do?
=====
Now you ruined his day. Tsk tsk. Or maybe you made it. Now he has another excuse to have big brother ‘redistribute’ your wealth to him.
I’m not rich, I’m not even well off, well, by monetary standards, I have my health and food etc, but even I realize that being rich, isn’t in it’s self a fault.
If earned honestly, it is a reward. I suspect some of the people on here are either envious of people with wealth (which brings in another sense of irony based on their statements) or are trying to divide the people by trying to inject some kind of class war mentality.
I think there really is some kind of class war going on, but not all wealthy people are part of the elites.
There is a difference.
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Hi Citizen:
In one of your previous posts, you stated that you borrowed a half a million FIAT dollars at 8.5% interest for your business.
For a person who decries the “worthless” Federal Reserve Notes, you sure are taking full advantage of the (usurious) SYSTEM.
See, I’ve figured it out with you: You don’t care how you increase your PURCHASING POWER, as long as you do, whether it’s by fiat dollars or UNsound gold, makes no difference to you, really.
Those so-called “worthless Fed Reserve notes” are not so worthless are they, Citizen? Or you wouldn’t be borrowing so many and attempting to profit from them.
A while back you said that you also got a home loan at a decent rate. For a person who HATES fiat dollars, you sure BORROW a bunch of them, so they couldn’t be too worthless to you in your mind, now, could they?
And Bernanke’s printing press has generally benefited the gold speculators, so what are you complaining about? He’s potentially making you RICH, and isn’t that your goal?
Peace.
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Curious,
Cute… but not true
I’m FORCED to use Uncle Ben’s Magic Paper Money….
If I had a choice….I’d prefer to be paid in gold and silver coin and I would pay my crews in the same.
But guess what…. I don’t have THAT CHOICE!
I have to compete using YOUR FED paper notes as a score keeping and accounting system…
Meanwhile… YOUR FED paper notes are eroding in purchasing power because YOU insist on printing them and giving them to my Political Enemies
You know, those Banksters, Crony Big Businesses like Solyndra and GE and GM….
Yep, I’m just a hard working contractor not favored by the political elitists who get the bail outs, while my income erodes annually to favor YOUR FED paper note “REDISTRIBUTION” agenda… Curious
Try again….
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Hallo,
Greetings from Österreich, which means Eastern State literally translated and what you English call Austria for some strange reason.
I am curious as to why some of you insist that gold is our economic system? Austrian Economics? We do not practice this medieval, merchantisistic, aristocratic monetary system. The JEWS who created your golden system must stop implicating the good peoples of Österreich with their evil intentions.
Highly rated. What do you think?
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Mike in discussion with Robert Murphy-Von Mises/Austrian Economist
Must listen
http://www.youtube.com/user/chotaboy66#p/u/9/757nGMowLf4
Highly rated. What do you think?
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Open Mind??? And EMPTY as well!
Rambling Mike Montagne strikes up another a mind numbing rambling drone again
Rambling On and On and On and On about the exact same thing…
Each video is begun with “What if God were one of us”…
Yes we understand about the “obfuscation of our money”
Yes we know about the unsustainable debt…
Yes we are aware that we are being stripped of our wealth….
But never the less MPE stands for Marxist Progressive Eugenics, a whimsical notion that with a little computing and Mike in charge… the world monetary system (and a keg of beer) would become a well oiled machine, humming along like the proverbial “evenly rotating economy” that Karl Marx wrote about.
Yes after hearing Mike’s endless repetition of the same mind MPE talking points, one quickly recognizes the repeated fallacies he proposes.
Fix prices and values to be calculated with an oversimplification of math. Ignore market conditions and demand/supply forces and impose a Uber Control Central Exchange system that regulates everything.
Well Herr Adolf Montagne….it’s been tried and it doesn’t work…
Speaking of working… have you been lately?
The link suggests that Mike is engaged in a discussion / debate with Robert Murphy of the Von Mises Institute….
NO, he is not… both videos are a duplicate repeat of the same old droning nonsense….
Don’t waste you’re time….with MPE
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I wasn’t going to watch the video, but if the Supreme Liar is so against MPE, I know in my heart that I should watch this and approach the subject with an open mind.
Highly rated. What do you think?
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(Fyi: Mike is engaged in a discussion with R. Murphy. You just have to skip through a few chapters. These discussions take about 2-2.5 hours and sometimes more)
Citizen;
If you yourself could ascend above your own drivel, then you might be disposed not to talk stupidly or childishly.
Can you prove there is no solution to inflation and deflation? Multiplication of debt by interest? Can you disprove anything?
If you could, I presume you would *show* how it is nonsens, instead of condemning yourself to merely making the claim.
We don’t need to solve inflation and deflation, systemic manipulation of the cost or value of money or property, or inherent multiplication of debt by interest?
Download the math; refute the math. Is it a foregone conclusion that you would prevail?
Trolls are trolls. They don’t come here to learn. They don’t come to debate. They come to call names, because that’s all they have; and because there’s so many of them, it’s no wonder the country is fallen to what it has.
You are part of the solution? You’re part of the necessary vision?
No. You’re the very core of the destruction of this country
Highly rated. What do you think?
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For those who want to go the interview direct here is the correct link. Start at 08:02
http://www.youtube.com/user/chotaboy66#p/u/8/XUklDBKAv_s
Cheers
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Open Minded and Honesty ~ Not Goldie Locks
The discussion with Robert Murphy…
The actual link is
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUklDBKAv_s&feature=watch_response
From 8:05 to 16:10
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mz0gfbnJquY&NR=1
From 0:00 to 12:20 Mike interrupts Robert…
“subjective values versus immutable values”
From 12:20 Mike interrupts (CUTS OFF) Robert..to 15:10
and rambles on about “preserving the subjective value in at a 1:1:1 value”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtwqUi5GexU&NR=1
From 0:00 to 3:11
Mike laughs and says that Bob has no answer about controlling inflation
But you don’t hear say that… Mike claims Bob said that
From 3:11 to 9:59
Bob says that circulating commodity money may work as Mike is suggesting, but admits there may be more reading and understanding of Mike theory…
************
“Austrian Econ does not pretend to solve all the problems”
(unlike Mikes MPE which does portend to do)
***********
“Austrian Econ analyzes the consequences of actions of various ideas, Socialism, Fiat Money Printing or other system”
**********
People issue via the Gov the currency verses Fredrick Hayke
Not having a Central Bank be the Lender of Last Resort…
Wow, an analytical framework to evaluate all these things
Mike would expect the allowance of MPE to “maintain representations of their production”
From 9:59 to End
Mike continues without Bob about Just Trade… but absent any dialogue..
As he promotes the ideas of MPE of “immutable” constant value of money keeping all “production” at a constraint of value between producers and consumers.
While that sounds all kinds of wonderful, it suggests that horse carriages and buggy whips would still be our current form of transportation today, because Mike’s MPE would suggest that the 1:1:1 dictates that buyers maintain their level of purchasing of those items that producers have a constant value for their goods and be paid with immutable money.
*****On that SINGLE POINT, MPE falls apart because it PRESUMES that human tastes, preferences and purchasing remain constant. It makes little difference about changes in technology, competing items, market demand conditions et al that will inevitably change those 1:1:1 math ratios that Mike promotes..
Lacking also in this “encounter” with Robert Murphy, is any discussion about long term indebtedness and price premiums on borrowed money.
Another area where MPE departs from Reality and wanders gleefully down the yellow brick road into la-la land.
I’m so sorry but please read MPE for yourselves and see where it departs from any analytical framework to evaluate it. It presumes so many things that are simply not real working constructs or even feasible.
MPE is a Theory that is so FAR detached from REALITY… that it requires a psychotic break from real world markets and human behavior.
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I have to admit, I originally came on this site just to do due diligence on how bad all the Republican candidates are…and then I found this man.
This man sounds like a dream candidate. I feel horrible, because I really wanted to voted for my President, but Ron Paul just may have my vote – he sounds ideal.
Highly rated. What do you think?
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Ron Paul must be listening, for he didn’t mention or call for the gold standard last night. Ron Paul did mention sound money, but as George H. Ritz so eloquently states it, neither gold or paper is sound… public control makes it sound.
End the Fed, because it is PRIVATE CONTROL over public currency!
Highly rated. What do you think?
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He has ALWAYS said to place the hard currency into the hands of the PEOPLE.
Gold or silver COINS in the hands of the PEOPLE. That helps keep our money safe.
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Jim,
That’s right… Dr. Paul has always promoted “hard currency” in the hands of the People….
But these sad sack Fiat Paper Money Troll keep arguing for PAPER here on the Ron Paul Honest “Hard” money blog site…
I think they’re lost sheep of the Bawney Fwank flock where
Endless Magic Money is Bawney’s montwa…. “Just Pwint Mowe
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Ron Paul 2012!
You are absolutely correct. I even watched the debate again (just got done!) specifically looking for ANY reference to the gold standard by ANY candidate. There were several, from Herman Cain, from Jon Huntsman, from Gary Johnson, but NONE from Ron Paul. I think that is a first for that, but I am not certain for I do not believe I have seen or heard everything Ron Paul EVER said… like Jim here seems to believe has to make such a FALSE statement about last night.
Highly rated. What do you think?
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I wasn’t talking about last night, Herman.
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Honest Money IS Commodity Money
Paper FAILS because People Fail….
Gold, Silver, Copper, don’t fail….the are the only CONSTANT!
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Hi Citizen:
Citizen: Honest Money IS Commodity Money
Paper FAILS because People Fail….
Gold, Silver, Copper, don’t fail….the are the only CONSTANT!
Curious: Gold and silver are HARDLY a CONSTANT. They are VERY volatile, even more volatile than the DOLLAR.
Citizen and Jim, you are both in extreme denial to say that gold is “sound money.” That’s just simply NOT true. It is VOLATILE MONEY, UNSOUND MONEY.
It LOSES VALUE and is subject to MARKET MANIPULATION just as much as fiat dollars are, and if you’re HONEST, you’ll admit that.
GOLD just lost almost SIX PERCENT of its value per ounce. That’s SIGNIFICANT devaluation of your money by MARKET forces.
SILVER lost almost EIGHTEEN PERCENT in ONE DAY. Talk about loss of purchasing power! Think about if you lost 16% of the value of your fiat dollar bank accounts in one day?!
The DOLLAR is more STABLE than gold and silver.
The issue we’re all trying to solve is LOSS OF PURCHASING POWER.
With fiat dollars, Bernanke generates too many dollars and they lose value.
With gold and silver, there are MANY ways to cause loss of value on the market, many.
PLEASE try to be HONEST and acknowledge the OBVIOUS TRUTH that the value of money is vulnerable to all sorts of forces, whether it’s gold or paper, and YOU KNOW IT, or you’re literally blinded by a shiny yellow metal.
Peace.
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I LOVE Ron Paul and he is for sure the best man for the job in 2012. The only disagreement I have is with his gold standard policy. We should be a GDP backed nation, only allowed to print as much money as the value of our economy permits. The gold standard would create a negative inflation rate which would ensure a stable economy sure, but it would also inhibit growth.
Highly rated. What do you think?
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NONSENSE…
Gold DOES NOT create a “negative inflation”…
a Gold Standard is a STANDARD that is not as easily corrupted by political motivations.
Paper IS the instrument of evil men!
Dis-Honest men like Dis-Honest Paper and hate Honest Gold
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Brilliant Brian?
“We should be a GDP backed nation, only allowed to print as much money as the value of our economy permits”
“GDP backed nation” What a bizarre and off the wall nitwit notion?
I’d say that was a Milton Friedman Chicago School of Monetary Policy statement…but that would be grossly naive on my part!
So tell US Brian…. when the value of our economy plummets into the economic abyss we should print less?
Or wait wait, don’t tell me… We should print more?
Drats, is all so confusing.
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Curious,
Curious: THE GOLD STANDARD FAILED PREVIOUSLY. That’s why we went OFF of it!
The government reneged…
***************
The Government RENEGED is a correct statement!
The gold standard worked perfectly, it held government in CHECK!
It forced government to dishonor and renege on its debt obligations.
GOLD was an absolute SUCCESS,
Government FAILED the people of the country.
Curious, your statements are confirming the obvious conclusion…
The Gold Standard was historically and remains the only STANDARD whereas
The fiat paper currencies are a decreed standard that changes at EVERY political whimsy.
Not withstanding all our the social and ethical corruption the Fiat Paper Trolls decry on a daily basis, ONLY gold is an invincible commodity is never worth zero…
Gold… real money for real people!
Hotly debated. What do you think?
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Hi Citizen:
Curious: THE GOLD STANDARD FAILED PREVIOUSLY. That’s why we went OFF of it! The government reneged…
Citizen: The Government RENEGED is a correct statement!
Curious: FINALLY, an acknowledgement that the gold standard FAILED to hold the government accountable!
Citizen: The gold standard worked perfectly, it held government in CHECK!
It forced government to dishonor and renege on its debt obligations.
Curious: Conflicted and convoluted reasoning! Talk about a “spin job.” You’d make a great politician, Citizen. Of course, I never believe ANYTHING they say!
Citizen: GOLD was an absolute SUCCESS. Government FAILED the people of the country.
Curious: If the gold standard were EFFECTIVE and SUCCESSFUL, the government would have been constrained by it! It would have succeeded in keeping the government ACCOUNTABLE, but it did NOT.
Citizen: Curious, your statements are confirming the obvious conclusion…
The Gold Standard was historically and remains the only STANDARD whereas
The fiat paper currencies are a decreed standard that changes at EVERY political whimsy.
Curious: ALL MONEY IS FIAT, Citizen. The value of our money is determined by “fiat”… by “decree”… If gold were used as CURRENCY, you can be sure the government would regulate its value… “fiat.”
Per the Constitution: Congress is supposed to “…coin money and regulate the VALUE THEREOF… in other words, “fiat.”
Citizen: Not withstanding all our the social and ethical corruption the Fiat Paper Trolls decry on a daily basis, ONLY gold is an invincible commodity is never worth zero…
Gold… real money for real people!
Curious: You sound like a commercial, Citizen. LOL
)
And with this post, Citizen, honestly — DEBATE OVER.
You acknowleged the gold standard FAILED!
Peace.
Highly rated. What do you think?
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=====
Citizen: The gold standard worked perfectly, it held government in CHECK!
It forced government to dishonor and renege on its debt obligations.
Curious: Conflicted and convoluted reasoning! Talk about a “spin job.” You’d make a great politician, Citizen. Of course, I never believe ANYTHING they say!
=====
Not conflicted. The gold standard kept the government in check by preventing them or making it harder to over produce currency. The renege was the government reneging on the paper currency, they refused to redeem the NOTES they had for HARD currency. It forced them, because at that time, notes were REDEEMABLE (supposedly) for hard currency, which they DID NOT DO.
At the same time they were refusing their obligations to redeem with cash, they were forcing people who owed the banks, to pay the banks IN HARD CURRENCY.
It’s kind of funny how bank robbers in the 1800′s and into the early part of the twentieth century, were looked upon as heroes, or robin hood types in many cases. The only real problem the general population had with bank robbers, was when they KILLED PEOPLE. They didn’t care a darn about the banks for the most part.
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Hi Jim:
Citizen: The gold standard worked perfectly, it held government in CHECK! It forced government to dishonor and renege on its debt obligations.
Curious: Conflicted and convoluted reasoning! Talk about a “spin job.” You’d make a great politician, Citizen. Of course, I never believe ANYTHING they say!
Jim: Not conflicted. The gold standard kept the government in check by preventing them or making it harder to over produce currency.
Curious: They DID inflate the money supply. That’s the very REASON they went OFF the gold standard. They inflated it so much they didn’t want the bills to be redeemable anymore.
The gold standard FAILED to keep the government from INFLATING the MONEY SUPPLY, Jim. Despite the gold standard, the government inflated the money supply anyway, until they felt compelled to reneg! Nice try, though.
Jim: The renege was the government reneging on the paper currency, they refused to redeem the NOTES they had for HARD currency. It forced them, because at that time, notes were REDEEMABLE (supposedly) for hard currency, which they DID NOT DO.
Curious: Again, the government reneged BECAUSE they INFLATED THE MONEY SUPPLY so much, they felt compelled to reneg.
It’s in the DETAILS, Jim. DETAILS tell the whole truth.
Peace.
Highly rated. What do you think?
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=====
Curious: They DID inflate the money supply. That’s the very REASON they went OFF the gold standard. They inflated it so much they didn’t want the bills to be redeemable anymore.
=====
Yeah, they inflated it with PAPER MONEY.
=====
The gold standard FAILED to keep the government from INFLATING the MONEY SUPPLY, Jim. Despite the gold standard, the government inflated the money supply anyway, until they felt compelled to reneg! Nice try, though.
=====
The banks inflated it, by PRINTING paper money, that ostensibly was redeemable for hard currency. The current federal reserve, is the THIRD incarnation of central banking in this country, the previous ones were the First US bank and the second bank of the US.
Both had charters for 20 years. They didn’t inflate the gold, you can only increase the gold supply by mining more.
It had NOTHING to do with the gold standard, they were using BOTH paper and a hard currency.
Again, THE BANKS inflated the PAPER currency, that was BACKED by gold or silver. The banks had a charter from congress. The banks had rules, WHICH THEY DID NOT FOLLOW.
“There were other, nonnegotiable conditions for the establishment of the Bank of the United States. Among these were:
That the Bank was to be a private company.
That the Bank would have a twenty year charter running from 1791 to 1811, after which time it would be up to the Congress to renew or deny renewal of the bank and its charter; however, during that time no other federal bank would be authorized; states, for their part, would be free to charter however many intrastate banks they wished.
That the Bank, to avoid any appearance of impropriety, would:
be forbidden to buy government bonds.
have a mandatory rotation of directors.
neither issue notes nor incur debts beyond its actual capitalization.
That foreigners, whether overseas or residing in the United States, would be allowed to be Bank of the United States stockholders, but would not be allowed to vote.
That the Secretary of the Treasury would be free to remove government deposits, inspect the books, and require statements regarding the bank’s condition as frequently as once a week”
It’s NOT a failure of the gold standard, it’s a failure of the banks and congress to do what they were SUPPOSED to do.
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Hi Jim:
Jim: I’m talking about a purely coinage based currency with NO PAPER. Get it? NO PAPER.
Curious: You “flip-flop” all over the place, Jim.
Now you’re talking about a bullion-only standard, and I’m sure you know that that would cause SERIOUS DEFLATION for lack of a money supply. You want everyone else to suffer so you can profit, Jim?
But that aside, Jim, you go from “money is money, doesn’t matter the *form, it’s the people”; to supporting the traditional gold standard, which employs gold-backed dollars; to a bullion-only standard.
You change your positions when it’s convenient. There’s no consistency in your arguments.
I think your issue, Jim, is that because of your loyalty to Ron Paul, you cannot accept that perhaps a person can be right about some things and wrong about others. That’s HUMAN. No one is 100% right. What matters is whether they are FLEXIBLE. Are they humble enough to acknowledge when they’re wrong and change their position on an issue HONESTLY. When they see the TRUTH — which IS self-evident — it “smells” like truth — can they be honest and acknowledge it and make the change.
It’s good to be loyal, but not blind to reality.
The best thing Ron Paul can do is, if more understanding causes him to realize that the gold standard is NOT the answer, then acknowledge that honestly and move forward with something new and better. THAT’S HONORABLE LEADERSHIP.
No one is 100% right. I think God made us to some degree dependent on one another.
Peace.
Highly rated. What do you think?
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I’m not flip-flopping, I am trying to get the paper people to understand, except they keep going off on strange tangents.
=====
Now you’re talking about a bullion-only standard, and I’m sure you know that that would cause SERIOUS DEFLATION for lack of a money supply. You want everyone else to suffer so you can profit, Jim?
=====
First, I already posted a rebuttal to your assumption, that returning to metal currency will cause a revaluation. It will primarily be most detrimental to those who have benefited MOST from the current fraudulent system.
Serious deflation. How the heck to you think we got to being seriously INFLATED? You want to just continue the current, inflated, grossly distorted market values, but just use some other, undefined, ethereal form of money?
You take parts of different posts of mine, which are addressing various different aspects, and highlighting various SPECIFIC things, and clump them all up and say that I am flip-flopping.
I have NOT said I SUPPORT paper money IN ANY FORM. I support hard specie, but I am not opposed to competing currency either.
I have not changed my position at all. I may not have explained my position well enough for you or others to understand, although, I have tried.
THAT, is why I recommended you to that link, it addresses very clearly and concisely, the concerns about using hard currency and gives supporting evidence and background.
Don’t take my word for it, look for yourself. It does a far better job of explaining than I could ever do, with my limited experience and knowledge.
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Curious,
Are you dyslexic.?
“Curious says : Again, the government reneged BECAUSE they INFLATED THE MONEY SUPPLY so much, they felt compelled to renege.”
**********
EXACTLY Curious….
FDR HAD TO STEAL America’s private gold to cover Hoover’s and HIS bad fiscal policies.
And Stupid American’s believed that FDR was a “nice guy”
And they LET HIM DO IT with an Executive Order!!!!
How STUPID is that???
Nothing in the Constitution gave him that power!
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Curious,
You’re chasing your tail!!!
“”Curious: YOU “flip-flop” all over the place,” Not Jim.
The STANDARD was set by the Coinage Act of 1792…
says MINT COINS…
neither the Federal Treasury NOR the States are allowed to Print Paper….
The Banks can Print Notes for redemption on debts private and public… and PAYABLE to the Bearer on Demand in gold or silver coin BACKED by 100% reserves held in bullion coin!
Treasury MINTS COINS
Banks Print Paper….
What part of that Don’t YOU yet understand?
And I thought that plutonium was dense?
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“The gold standard kept the government in check by preventing them or making it harder to over produce currency.”
False!!!
Over printing of gold back dollars occurred immediately under the PRIVATE CONTROL of the Federal Reserve, and reached a critical state during the Great Depression, where FDR redefined the value of gold to the dollar, from $20 an ounce to $32 an ounce, to CORRECT the situation.
It happened again and again and again, until the government finally stopped PRETENDING and dropped the gold standard in 1971.
Highly rated. What do you think?
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I’m talking about a purely coinage based currency with NO PAPER.
Get it? NO PAPER.
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Honest ~ Not Goldie Lock or TruthSneaker avatar clone
******Over printing******* of gold back dollars occurred immediately under the PRIVATE CONTROL of the Federal Reserve, and reached a critical state during the Great Depression, where FDR redefined the value of gold to the dollar, from $20 an ounce to $32 an ounce, to CORRECT the situation.
SO what part of “OVER PRINTING” do the Fiat Paper Money Trolls still NOT UNDERSTAND???
FDR didn’t want to “correct” the situation, he wanted to EXPLOIT the situation and created the Great Progressive Socialist Dream!
Fixed Prices, Fixed Wages, Crony Capitalism…
Unionization of every aspect of the economy, Tariffs, etc.
The total DEstruction of Capitalism
Dyslexia is a profound mental disorder. It manifests itself in bizarre and contradictory behaviors.
Fiat Paper Money Trolls….a sad dysfunctional fringe….really sad!
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Curious….
What? Your now a spokes person for the FED? “Twisted”
“…coin money and regulate the VALUE THEREOF… in other words, “fiat.”
*********
NO…
The “VALUE”, is the WEIGHT and PURITY THEREOF
Not a MANIPULATED and convoluted contrivance of a Fiat Paper Money Trolls delusional interests.
Cut the TWISTED words Curious… your smarter than that nonsense!
Curious, If I sound like a commercial… you’re the “broken record” stuck on the same worn out grove!
— DEBATE OVER,
***************HARDLY!
You acknowledged the gold standard FAILED
*************
NOT!!!…..”TWISTED” sister, I did not!
Please, sister take two aspirin and try again in the morning.
Fiat Paper Money Trolls….. its hard to believe they actually think paper and ink are real money?
DENSE!
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Curious,
Something Very Telling…maybe the
Truth is Revealed about Curious?
Curious Writes!
“THE GOLD STANDARD FAILED PREVIOUSLY. That’s why we went OFF of it! The government reneged…”"
Curious writes “that’s why WE …went off it”
That sounds like WE refers to the FED Reserve Bank….
Not WE the People.
Freudian Slip? Probably not
WE the People did not go off the gold standard.
It was YOU the FED that had to abandon the gold standard because you could no longer REDEEM the damaged caused by YOUR RECKLESS PRINTING PRESS operations!
Now your proposing Peace and Love and more printing as a solutions?
Very interesting and suspicious statements?
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Hi Citizen:
Citizen: Something Very Telling…maybe the
Truth is Revealed about Curious?
Curious Writes!
“THE GOLD STANDARD FAILED PREVIOUSLY. That’s why we went OFF of it! The government reneged…””
Curious writes “that’s why WE …went off it”
That sounds like WE refers to the FED Reserve Bank….
Not WE the People.
Freudian Slip? Probably not
WE the People did not go off the gold standard.
It was YOU the FED that had to abandon the gold standard because you could no longer REDEEM the damaged caused by YOUR RECKLESS PRINTING PRESS operations!
Now your proposing Peace and Love and more printing as a solutions?
Very interesting and suspicious statements?
Curious: You’re paranoid, Citizen.
I meant “we” in the sense that that government is supposed to be “We, The People.” Unfortunately, that is FAR from the truth.
I DO NOT SUPPORT WHAT THE FEDS ARE DOING.
I believe that money needs to be in the hands of the common man, not wealthy people. They don’t need any more money.
I don’t see the Feds doing much for the common man. I think they should start finding ways to get money in the hands of the people or it WON’T BE GOOD.
Please do NOT misrepresent my position on the Fed, Citizen.
Peace.
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I just noticed something Citizen, and I am guilty of this as well.
We say, ‘the government’ failed in the late 1800′s and early 1900′s in regard to the reneging on the redemption of the notes etc.
What really happened was, the congress gave 20 year charters on two separate occasions to private banks who issued paper notes redeemable in specie. They laid out rules for those banks to follow. The banks of course, didn’t follow them.
The failure, is on the banks, for printing more notes than they had in reserves. The congress failed, in that they ALLOWED the banks to go ahead and renege on their obligation to redeem the notes for specie and get away with it.
That is the true failure.
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“I just noticed something Citizen, and I am guilty of this as well.”
Good voice from inside Jim!
I noticed that gold advocates bash the government for the failure of our monetary system, hence creating the illusion first that it is NOT the privatization of monetary system that is the problem and second that our government is an independent entity from the banking empire. Both contentions are wrong and misleading:
First, the more power you give to private central banking over money, the worse the money abuse would get regardless of the form of money used.
Second, our government for the most part of our history has been nothing but an appointee of the banking elite.
Turn to page 7 of the Case for Gold and see this misleading notion that the Federal Reserve System being defined as : “government-created monopoly bank” which should be replaced by “bank-created government monopoly.”
Making the case for gold on the same page, I found it also intriguing to make the ironic reference that “money does NOT create wealth. Only hard work creates wealth” yet failing to realize that gold coupled with the USURY system (especially when gold advocates call for higher interest rates) could create the extreme opposite of that notion with the business of economy transformed into the business of money. A gold backed economy with its natural tendency to create deflation supported by greedy USURIOUS transfer of wealth mechanism can almost assure the collapse of the economy in no time. It is pretty much like dancing in the middle of piercing swords and having no bandage to wrap around the wounds! Gold has been historically the exclusive property of the wealthy and when you also allow the wealthy on top of that a mechanism that facilitates the monopoly more is in essence the ultimate money fraud scheme which ensures the economy collapse in no time. I am hearing now that in the troubled Middle East where the menace of wars and political instability dominate, people are buying more gold, entrusting in gold more, and as a result, businesses are breaking down and unemployment is soaring out because people are NOT spending enough to support any consumption-production mode! Does that comes as a surprise? Well, Keynes was the one who pointed out that 80% of the income must be spent back into economy after the mystery of the Great Depression puzzled everyone. He proposed that in order to recover the blow of the Great Depression that excessive savings and hence the natural death of the economy happens when people become afraid to pass on money and allow it to fully circulate. In the absolute sense of savings, it is thus NOT good for the economy to withhold the money and spare it for the bad days because it is self-defeating tactic as many AE fail to realize. 20% of income should be saved in the ideal scenario; any excess of savings beyond that kills the economy. Gold along with USURY is the seeding of economical collapse because on one hand, it encourages excessive savings while on the other hand facilitates the quick transfer of wealth and hence quickening the process of the collapse!
In sum, once we start to realize that the root of the problem as the private monopoly of money which makes its objective the private accumulation of wealth by all means possible rather than the assurance that the economical wheel continues to spin, we will stand a chance to fix our economical problems. This is the prerequisite moral commitment that we must make to engage in fruitful monetary reform debate. I am sorry to say that all I hear from gold advocates is the promotion of greedy private wealth interest while paradoxically proclaiming patriotic spirit. Ensuring the national prosperity and advancement is the top priority of any national patriot. I continue to sense a stingy pessimistic shrinking hoarding spirit that carries within a satanic massage of scarcity, poverty, exploitation, and ultimate destruction. Unlike God’s promise of continuous blessings, giving, sharing, and creation, gold does NOT fit the criterion of honest money. Make no mistake about it: we support NOT the random creation of FIAT paper money as some try to misrepresent. We are just as equally against that abusive system. People who continue to make that lie are morally responsible before the Almighty High and it will NOT take a very long time for the decent observer to catch on that lie.
Highly rated. What do you think?
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Indeed, T.S., absolutely – positively spot on!
Highly rated. What do you think?
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Jim,
Precisely… NO Audits and NO Accountability…
Banks abused there charters and congress gave them a pass…
Crony Capitalism… don’t you love it!
That’s why today Ron Paul is advocating Audit the FED…
We would be shocked the report would be more damaging and destructive than the 911 report.
The FED has done more damage to the US than 400 airline jets hitting our National Trade Centers
MINT COIN….burn the paper!!
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Agree that the PRIVATE Fed is wromg.
Disagree that the solution is Gold.
Highly rated. What do you think?
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I would like to point out something else about this.
The gold standard DID NOT FAIL.
The failures were as I stated.
So please don’t tell me the gold standard was a failure, it was the banks and the congress that failed.
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Funny thing is, it failed because gold is no gaurantee, sort of like paper, because we are not going to go to a bullion or coin system in the 21st Century. In fact, paper represents 3% of the dollars in “circulation” today because 97% is only electrons in computer programs!
So paper, gold, magic pixie dust… doesn’t mean squat, we are dealing with corrupt people who control both the money supply… and through that, the politicians. Gold will be corrupted as quickly as any private paper system.
Restore the Constitution before any bogus changes be made. That means Congress has 100% control over money, regardless of form. It also requires an audit of all money in the hands of people if they desire to convert it to the new form.
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You don’t get it.
We have never really been completely on a gold standard, except maybe briefly.
There has usually always been some form of paper money floating around at the same time as the COINAGE. The paper was supposed to be backed up by the COINAGE.
The COINAGE DIDN’T FAIL, the bank notes are the ones that failed. And now we currently have legal tender laws that FORCE us to use paper backed by NOTHING.
PAPER FAILS. The COINAGE did NOT.
Paper fails because the banks that issue the notes, at first reneged on their obligation to pay IN SPECIE, then they just did away with backing their fraudulent at all and created laws forcing us to use the worthless crap.
How hard is that to figure out?
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I do agree with most of what you are saying here, but gold really DIDN’T fail.
Corruption has been around as long as people have been. The electronic version of money is even worse.
Have you ever heard of a bank teller making a mistake? Ooops.
If money becomes solely a blip on a monitor, watch out.
Think about that. First, we had cold hard cash, money made of coins. Then some bright boy figures out that we can use notes to represent that cold hard cash. Now, while both are still tangible items, the coins ARE the real wealth, the paper REPRESENTS that real wealth.
Now, we have paper backed by nothing, and look at all the inflation, corruption and games being played. It is FAR worse than when we just used coins. At least, we can look at a note and hold it in our hand and count it, we have PROOF of how many we have.
Now, let’s move forward to a purely electronic version. It’s as bad as paper in regard to being able to just create it out of thin air. But NOW, YOU can’t even hold it in your hand, or stash some in your dresser drawer or mattress.
Now, who ever has control of the computers has TOTAL AND COMPLETE control of YOUR money. If the computers go down, you are screwed. If you piss off the wrong person, you are screwed.
Total and complete control of the people through the control of their ability to provide for themselves and their families, even the basic necessities of life.
Changing to something NEW, does not always equal an improvement. It may be a step backward or in the wrong direction.
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Hi Jim:
Jim: Now, let’s move forward to a purely electronic version. It’s as bad as paper in regard to being able to just create it out of thin air. But NOW, YOU can’t even hold it in your hand, or stash some in your dresser drawer or mattress.
Curious: You can stash all the silver you want under your mattress, Jim, but you can NEVER protect it from loss of purchasing power, NEVER, NEVER, NEVER.
If you stashed 10 silver coins worth $36.50, $365 total, under your mattress and the silver market crashed 18% in ONE DAY, you would LOSE $65.00 in one day!
So you can hide your silver coins in a dark hole six feet deep, but that is NOT GOING TO PROTECT THEM FROM DEVALUATION….. LOSS OF PURCHASING POWER.
WAKE UP AND DO THE MATH!
Peace.
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Curious, you must have really short sight.
If I find some gold or silver from 5000 years ago, I have just found some money.
Is it worth what it’s value was the day it was minted? Hard to say. IT STILL HAS VALUE THOUGH.
Duh, of course silver and gold prices fluctuate. It sure holds it’s value over time WAY better than paper created out of thin air.
What makes you think it’s worthless merely because prices go up and down? It would certainly hold it’s value longer than paper because THEY DON’T KEEP PRINTING SILVER OR GOLD!
You do the math. GUARANTEED loss of purchasing power with paper money vs some POSSIBLE fluctuation in silver prices, that may or may not occur.
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While Bernanke’s Federal Reserve Notes are printed out of thin air, that is NOT TRUE about Franklin’s system, or Lincoln’s system. or MPE.
From Mr. George H. Ritz below:
“A Free Enterprise system is a self-regulating mechanism. Rates of exchange for commodities are settled upon by an aggregation of the exchange values generated in individual transactions involving those commodities. A seller sets a price for a good or service, if the buyer agrees then a sale is made; if the buyer isn’t willing to meet that price he will offer what he believes to be a fair price, and the sale will either not be made or will close at a price agreeable to both. These are market forces at work but the integrity of the system depends upon the circulation of a valid currency. A currency is validated by the liquidation of an asset, the most common of which is labor. As every commercial transaction is a contract, a person who agrees to perform work and is paid in currency based on that work, that currency is valid and cannot be construed as being created out of thin air. It’s currency expended for value received. This valid currency represents legitimate value and may be used to pay for goods and services of approximate value. An invalid currency constitutes a from of counterfeiting, e.g. Federal Reserve Notes created out of thin air. Thus we can see that valid fiat currencies are backed by the assets liquidated in proper exchanges. Who would argue that labor has no value? Labor is the basis for the creation of all goods and is endemic to services as well. Labor creates value either by producing goods form raw resources or from those already in existence, through recycling, or by organizing the factors of production; plant, machinery, equipment, supplies, and labor into productive assets. In the aftermath of Argentina’s hyper-inflation a factory that housed a candy company stood idle. The workers took the place over and with nothing more to start with than a bag of sugar, resurrected that facility and built it into a successful business once again. If they did it, so can we. But that involves having more intelligence than a tree which grows from the ground up, not from the top down as in waiting for the government to create jobs. Can’t is a shabby little word, used in weak little statements, to express hopeless ideas. Believing we can turn the economy around is half the battle.”
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A Free Enterprise system is a self-regulating mechanism.
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Bingo.
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As every commercial transaction is a contract, a person who agrees to perform work and is paid in currency based on that work, that currency is valid and cannot be construed as being created out of thin air. It’s currency expended for value received. This valid currency represents legitimate value and may be used to pay for goods and services of approximate value.
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This describes a contract between TWO individuals. THOSE individuals come to an agreement of payment for what is exchanged.
It could be potatoes for corn or anything else. The VALUE of those two items is only going to be what it is worth to those two individuals.
That doesn’t mean, however, that the value that they place upon those two items, is the same for everyone.
The best currency is the currency that is the most widely accepted form of payment. People know that they can trade the currency for ANYTHING of equal value, which of course may vary from transaction to transaction.
The currency HAS TO BE DEFINED. A standard, so that relative worth can be equated.
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Free Enterprise and Fiat Currency
http://endthefedusa.ning.com/profiles/blogs/free-enterprise-and-fiat-currency
Bringing and end to the Federal Reserve System involves more than eradicating a criminal entity that has been stealing the wealth of this nation for nearly 100 years. We the people must come to realize that Capitalism doesn’t work though it has been touted as a wonderful system; experience has shown that it only benefits the wealthy at the expense of the rest of us. Our economic system began as a Free Enterprise System and that system must be reprised. The difference is that in a Free Enterprise economy people earn money; in a Capitalist system money earns money. The failure of Capitalism is evident in the present situation in which vast sums of money are generated in non-productive endeavors; law suits, stock market activities, mergers and acquisitions, and the like. One of the most egregious examples involves the billions in bailouts that the Fed gave to banks ostensibly to get the banks lending and thus spur the economy. But lending to just plain folks is risky, especially as most people are scratching to make ends meet; the banks did (and still do) lend the money to the Federal Reserve, these deposits earning 3% interest with zero risk. Enough said; there are enough posts on the Internet that describe the problems we face; my interest is in developing solutions, the centerpiece of which is the restoration of Free Enterprise.
Fiat Currencies:
The metal merchants who tout gold or silver as a backing for the dollar are still denigrating unbacked, debt-free, paper currency, despite the fact that we have cited examples of how these exchange media have been very successful. Edward I of England’s Talley Sticks were in circulation for 726 years. Colonial Scrip fueled the Colonial economy so effectively that Great Britain enacted Currency Acts to outlaw its use, forcing the states to borrow from the Bank of England at interest. Benjamin Franklin cited these acts as the true cause of the Revolution. The Continental was the fiat currency that the founders used to finance the Revolutionary War; it came to grief not because it wasn’t successful but because the British counterfeited Continentals in vast amounts. Lincoln’s Greenbacks financed the union in the Civil War, an alternative to the New York banks who would lend Lincoln the money at 36% interest. This currency worked so well that Lincoln wanted to expand its use after the war. So when you hear commentators crying that fiat currencies have always failed, don’t believe it. They didn’t fail in and of themselves, but were snuffed out by banking interests in the name of maintaining the status quo.
The term fiat means “by decree” and the “hard money” advocates decry such currencies on that basis: that they are created by decree – and that’s bad. That’s nonsense, as the return to the Gold Standard would also be by decree. The creation of a fiat currency should not be judged on the basis of its method of creation but instead by whose decree such an enactment is based. The local currencies sprouting up all over the country are created by popular decree: the people of a locality designate these currencies as media of exchange – and they too are working very well.
Currency Creation:
All local currencies, with one exception, are established a priori: printed in advance and then spent into the economy. The exception is Time Dollars which are created by the originator of a commercial transaction which is, in fact, a contract. There are three components to any contract; the Offer, the Acceptance, and the Consideration.
Smith: My yard needs landscaping; mow the lawn, trim around the house, clip the hedges, prune the trees etc..
Jones: I’ll do it. How much will you pay me?
Smith: I’ll give you a receipt for the hours you spend doing the work.
When the work is done Smith creates Time Dollars by making out the receipt. If Jones takes eight hours to complete the task he walks away with eight hours of credit that he can in turn exchange for goods or services. Say Jones wants a housekeeper to straighten up his home, and that the task takes four hours. When the job is done Jones gives the housekeeper a receipt for four hours’ credit, destroys his original receipt, and the housekeeper returns a receipt for six hours of credit. As this system is liable to fraud or errors this version of the Time Dollar system is computer based. When someone pays another in Time Dollars an account is created in the recipient’s name; the account is credited with the initial payment and if expended the hours are debited. A simpler, more stable system uses actual currency denominated in hours, half hours, and quarter hours, issued by a central source that issues this currency in exchange for the originating receipts.
Free Enterprise:
This economic system is rooted in the individual right of a person to accept any form of payment in exchange for a good or service. Years ago a small ad appeared in several magazines that offered a million dollars for only $2.95. The catch was: it was Confederate money. If the offer were still in effect a locality could designate this currency as the basis for a local exchange. If everyone agrees then so be it.
A Free Enterprise system is a self-regulating mechanism. Rates of exchange for commodities are settled upon by an aggregation of the exchange values generated in individual transactions involving those commodities. A seller sets a price for a good or service, if the buyer agrees then a sale is made; if the buyer isn’t willing to meet that price he will offer what he believes to be a fair price, and the sale will either not be made or will close at a price agreeable to both. These are market forces at work but the integrity of the system depends upon the circulation of a valid currency. A currency is validated by the liquidation of an asset, the most common of which is labor. As every commercial transaction is a contract, a person who agrees to perform work and is paid in currency based on that work, that currency is valid and cannot be construed as being created out of thin air. It’s currency expended for value received. This valid currency represents legitimate value and may be used to pay for goods and services of approximate value. An invalid currency constitutes a from of counterfeiting, e.g. Federal Reserve Notes created out of thin air. Thus we can see that valid fiat currencies are backed by the assets liquidated in proper exchanges. Who would argue that labor has no value? Labor is the basis for the creation of all goods and is endemic to services as well. Labor creates value either by producing goods form raw resources or from those already in existence, through recycling, or by organizing the factors of production; plant, machinery, equipment, supplies, and labor into productive assets. In the aftermath of Argentina’s hyper-inflation a factory that housed a candy company stood idle. The workers took the place over and with nothing more to start with than a bag of sugar, resurrected that facility and built it into a successful business once again. If they did it, so can we. But that involves having more intelligence than a tree which grows from the ground up, not from the top down as in waiting for the government to create jobs. Can’t is a shabby little word, used in weak little statements, to express hopeless ideas. Believing we can turn the economy around is half the battle.
Not: The term “person” used in this article is general, colloquial usage and does not refer to corporations, according to Supreme Court rulings and Black’s Law Dictionary.
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Bravo George, now we have honest money on display!
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Hi George,
Thanks for your contribution…
“We the people must come to realize that Capitalism doesn’t work though it has been touted as a wonderful system; experience has shown that it only benefits the wealthy at the expense of the rest of us.”
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NOT TRUE, what we have in America IS NOT Capitalism… not even close.
We have a convoluted Government micro-managed economy that is shot through with special loop holes, cronyism, regulations and special interests.
Solyndra is the epitome just that sort of Social Green Economy Political Engineering
“One of the most egregious examples involves the billions in bailouts that the Fed gave to banks…”
***************
Ostensibly when Government’s use their power to fabricate money out of thin air… WE get what WE pay for… a corrupt special interest system. Continuing the same is simple insanity!
“the centerpiece of which is the restoration of Free Enterprise.”
***********
Amen… and that requires Honest / Sound Money!
“Fiat Currencies:
“British counterfeited Continentals in vast amounts. Lincoln’s Greenbacks financed the union”
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YES, Fiat currencies ARE the money of choice during WAR but George Washington troops tried to collect on their back pay they were repudiated.
When civil war union troops tried to collect on their back pay in green backs, they too couldn’t collect.
In 1932 the Bonus Army was beaten back when they too tried to collect on their pay for WWI
YES, our government has an illustrious history of Fiat Currency betrayal of our Veterans, Friends and Enemies alike.
“fiat currencies have always failed, don’t believe it.”
**********
NOT ONE fiat paper currency has survived longer than 50 years including the USD. The changes made on the USD since the FED took control have consistently and repeatedly BETRAYED the TRUST of the US Citizens.
It started in 1913 with Gold backing,
Then FDR confiscated the gold to redeem US debt obligations at a 45% discount a year later, to pay the WWI war debts.
Then LBJ reversed the silver backed dollar in Dec 1963 immediately after THEY assassinated JFK for authorizing the Treasury to issue Silver Certificates. To prosecute the Vietnam War and pay for the War on Poverty
Then NIXON struck the Coup de grâce , and reneged on the Brenton Woods Agreement. Letting the FED print as much money as needed for the Vietnam War.
“Fiat Paper…. didn’t fail in and of themselves, but were snuffed out by banking interests in the name of maintaining the status quo.”
************
How does anyone argue that position, when its the Banks that promote THEIR fiat paper fractional reserves. A Fiat Currency system ONLY benefits the Banking Industry…
And the Government has demonstrated ITS TOTAL INCOMPETENCE at managing the Fiat Paper too..
Maybe that’s why the Founders saw that in Europe and CHOSE to create the Coinage Act of 1792… a STANDARD that lasted to 1913 and ushered in the most prosperous era in human history!
“The local currencies sprouting up all over the country are created by popular decree: the people of a locality designate these currencies as media of exchange…”
****************
And I concur, that “By Decree” the people can designate anything as currency.
In 1750 PA, the colonists numbered 120 thousand… every community honor each others script… Continentals served their purpose…
Today the STATEs can still issue currency in the form of gold and silver coin ONLY! Not fiat notes, bills or other paper currencies, per the Constitution.
Currency Creation:
“are established *a priori:* printed in advance and then spent into the economy.”
*****************
And there in lies the betrayal of trust… when Governments simply print money into existence and show up at your place of business and demand your hard earned material goods and services thus guarantees your eventual poverty. Free Markets can not be sustained by the Printing Press, no matter how well intended.
The mantra of “Debt and Interest Free”, paper currency is a pathetic and pretentious ruse to confuse and mislead the people.
“A Free Enterprise system is a self-regulating mechanism. Rates of exchange for commodities are settled upon by an aggregation of the exchange values generated in individual transactions involving those commodities.”
*************
Well said… transactions involve “commodities” Fiat Paper Notes are NOT a commodity, they are NOTES, promises to pay in real commodities.
Paper Notes are Money Substitutes… they ARE NOT MONEY.
That’s why the FED holds BILLIONS in gold bullion as Real Money!
“A currency is validated by the liquidation of an asset, the most common of which is labor.”
***************
Labor IS NOT an asset. There is no manner nor means of comparing labor efforts from one person to another. This NOTION is a typical Labor Union ploy where all labor is a common value, Unions HATE any distinction that laborers somehow different. Thus they choose to create a generic labor pool where ALL individual efforts are homogenous and indistinguishable, the perfect Marxist definition in practice.
Reality is much different, some workers are 3 fold more efficient and the Union hates that because they are too ambitious and are sanctioned for being too productive.
Thus labor is NOT AN ASSET to be treated like a common commodity.
People are UNIQUE and should have the Right to Work… and compete with their innate skill set to improve their personal financial conditions.
“by organizing the factors of production; plant, machinery, equipment, supplies, and labor into productive assets.”
**************
Is a definition of a risk taking entrepreneur, a person who SAVED his wealth developed his skills and leveraged it to “organize” his factors of production.
Again… Solyndra is the perfect example of a government sponsored enterprise where tax payer money was handed out to promote a BAD BUSINESS MODEL.
What makes anyone here think…. that even “debt and interest free” money would be immune from similar Political Boondoggles, after a Century of one failure after another paid for by FIAT NOTE PRINTING INFLATION.
Bottom Line:
Commodity money is self defining and needs NO micro management and more importantly political mismanagement.
Mint Coin… burn the paper
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“Maybe that’s why the Founders saw that in Europe and CHOSE to create the Coinage Act of 1792… a STANDARD that lasted to 1913 and ushered in the most prosperous era in human history!”
Citizen;
Why do you keep repeating this LIE?
The coinage act of 1792 was repealed when the coinage act of 1834 was passed. The coinage act of 1834 debased the value of the SILVER dollar!
If you can’t make an honest argument, then I have to conclude you are an evil man, just here to steal from others with your gold scam.
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Why do you keep repeating this LIE?
The coinage act of 1792 was repealed when the coinage act of 1834 was passed. The coinage act of 1834 debased the value of the SILVER dollar!
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Gresham’s law with bimetallic currency. Silver was overvalued and gold was undervalued, thus causing gold to leave the country.
Jackson was trying to undermine the circulation of US bank notes in favor of gold currency. The bank notes were tied to the overvalued silver.
It’s not a lie. From 1792 to 1913, we were tied to SOME kind of DEFINED HARD currency. Yes, they did have other COINAGE acts, but they still dealt with COINS, not paper.
The coinage acts, DEFINED the COINS. Can you define what a dollar is right now in absolutes? A coin can be PRECISELY a certain weight and purity. Can you do that with a dollar?
Thanks for keeping it real.
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Actually, I need to rephrase this.
Can you do that with a fed reserve note?
A dollar, is actually a defined amount of silver. Spanish milled dollar.
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As Mitt Romney stated last night, nice try Citizen.
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Oh yeah, and we hang on every word that comes out of Romney.
I find it pretty funny how all these status quo jerkweeds, are now trying to copy Ron Paul on things.
Laughable. You know darn well they are only giving it lip service and have NO intentions of ever doing any of it.
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I did not say I support Mitt Romney. I used a phrase that Mitt Romney used in the debate… twice. See the difference or are you intentionally trying to twist my words?
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Yeah, I felt kinda bad after posting that one.
I just can’t stand Romney or Perry or any of the other parasites. Although, even though I think he is included in that category, Gingrich is funny to listen to. That guy is sharp, but I fear he believes in the whole globalist idea.
So, I appologize. I missed that part of Romney and when I did see it, I felt bad.
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I second that “Bravo,” George!
Crystal clear.
Thank you!
Blessings.
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It’s not what kind of money: Gold, Silver, Paper, or even Tally Sticks that matters, it’s actually Who Controls The Money Supply. Government must take back the control of money from the corrupt Centralized Banks (aka Banksters).
Bill Still is one of the best source one can learn the truth about $:
“The Secret of Oz”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swkq2E8mswI&feature=like-suggest&list=UL
“The Money Masters”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JXt1cayx0hs&feature=related
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Crazy idea folks, Bernanke has no clue, WE need to take responsibility & sort this out. If everybody makes a Gold donation in whatever type rings,chains ect, we can pay off some of the debt ourselves. Lets show them folks!
Go Ron Paul
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Your not a customer of a bank, your a financal investor, it’s time to invest elsewhere
If you leave your money in hands of children, expect them to spend it on toys & candy.
Go Ron Paul
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Greetings, All:
Wow! Get a load of THESE numbers:
http://barchart.com/
Gold DOWN 68.7
Silver DOWN 4.32 (10.67%)
DOW DOWN 488
Dollar Index UP, @ 78.46
Treasuries UP
Just goes to show you, ya never know…
People assert the dollar’s going to “die” but it’s still considered a “safe haven.”
Blessings and Peace! God HEARS and ANSWERS.
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LOL, ok, well good luck with that rising dollar. It’s just going to make it hurt more when it crashes down.
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Yes Jim, live in denial… be a slave to gold… to Hell with Truth!!!
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Just because I believe gold works best for money, doesn’t mean I am it’s slave.
Does that mean then, that YOU are a slave to paper money?
Money is money right? Doesn’t matter WHAT it’s made of.
A slave to money is a slave to money no matter what form it takes.
Or are you trying to make the laughable assertion, that gold ISN’T money, but paper is?
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And actually, let me be clear on this so you confused people will understand. When I say ‘gold’, I mean gold, silver or something similar. NOT specifically ONLY gold, could be silver.
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A wise man never follows the BELIEFS of a fool.
A wise man considers the empirical evidence, then decides.
There is no empirical evidence that gold is good with the exception of good for the money changers. History is clear on this. There is no period in history of widely held gold or silver, it doesn’t work. But no… Jim BELIEVES!!!
So that is fine,., you are a SLAVE to gold, based on your BELIEF superceeding the empirical facts. I have no such belief in paper, rather I have the empirical evidence of Franklin’s script. What is important about Franklin’s system is there is NO PRIVATE CONTROL over public money. That is the WHOLE TRUTH, an empirical fact.
A pity you refuse to accept the truth of Franklin’s argument.
A pity you attempted to revise history.
A pity you criticize what you haven’t even read.
But if I were a brainwashed buffoon, I too would FEAR the light of truth, and demounce it at every turn, and when that was still insufficient, call them a FIAT TROLL or other vile name like MARXIST.
Which comes to the worse of all about YOU… Jim.
SELECTED INDIGNATION.
I hope that word is not beyond your education!
Citizen is the worse offender, but he gets a pass from Jim, because Citizen agrees with you about gold… CASE CLOSED.
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LOL, choose to believe what you will.
You seem to be under the illusion that I care about what you think of me.
I DON’T expect everyone to believe what I believe. I am just as content whether you agree with me or not.
I am glad that you are so wise and thoughtful. I feel so grateful that you have told us that there is no empirical evidence without any kind of backup for that statement, we are just supposed to accept the fact that you are so much wiser than us, and not question your obvious authority on the subject, despite the fact that I posted a link that gave evidence.
Boy, sure also glad you’re not a brainwashed fool, we would really be in trouble then, if you were. Gosh, what would we do without your oh so wise guidance.
Selected indignation. Hmm, true, I don’t always answer EVERY aspect of a given post, but then again, I don’t think anyone does.
Oh, Citizen gets a pass from me huh? I have called him on a few things, nothing really major though. He basically has the right idea.
You know, on the surface, it appears we ALL want to get rid of the corruption. Yet you paper people, seem to think we want to help the bankers and others, that are killing this country.
I really find it almost hard to believe, that on a web site dedicated to Ron Paul, someone who believes in using hard money, has more people promoting the very thing he wants to get rid of. How is that?
It just seems a bit odd. Very, and I mean VERY few people I have ever talked to, WANT to KEEP paper money. In fact, about the only ones who do, are the ones who benefit the most from it or are part of it’s system.
Everyone else pretty much seems to understand that it is not our best choice.
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You know YOUR Sad and Rude
I believe Jim is saying that COMMODITIES are real money.
Paper is just that, paper.
Good for wiping unpleasant excrement from foolish Paper Trolls.
The Ultra Dense Fiat Paper Trolls… such fun!
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Jim: LOL, ok, well good luck with that rising dollar. It’s just going to make it hurt more when it crashes down.
Curious: Kind of like gold is right now?
GOLD is crashing.
Dollar is going up.
Who knows the future, save God?
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Curious,
TIME TO BUY GOLD!!!
Trade those paper FED notes now before it’s too late… don’t hesitate or you’ll loose!
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Hi Citizen:
Citizen: “TIME TO BUY GOLD!!! Trade those paper FED notes now before it’s too late… don’t hesitate or you’ll loose!”
Curious: Guess I’m glad I didn’t take you up on your advice to buy gold, Citizen.
Gold is DOWN *another* $105 at the moment.
Silver is DOWN $5.88….. 16%
Talk about PRICE INFLATION!
Talk about loss of PURCHASING POWER.
_______________________________________
Jim: LOL, ok, well good luck with that rising dollar. It’s just going to make it hurt more when it crashes down.
Curious: Have you had enough PAIN yet, Jim?
I prefer investing in PEOPLE.
Blessings and Peace.
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Curious = Christian
Citizen = Luciferian
Jim = Idiot
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So, how’s all that name calling working out for you Sad?
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Curious,
Don’t get all excited…
the Industrials drop 4%, metals drop 2.5% and the USD rises because of a panic in the EU…
The Euro is collapsing and that is the ONLY reason the USD is rising, the Billionaires are fleeing the Euro and even the pathetic USD is better than their other options.
This is NOT an indication of the USD stellar strength or great value. Bernanke’s statements are clear and profound… he is going to further erode the USD by exchange “twisting” short term lower rate instruments for long term higher rate debt. Thus driving the long term interest rates even lower.
This means only one thing, when you buy a long term US debt instrument, YOU are agreeing to getting less than your principal back at the end of the term.
This is clearly a “negative interest” rate, where buyers KNOW they are going to loose money…
The inflation rate is guaranteed 5% plus a year in currency erosion. Just imagine you own a few million in those bonds for 10 year terms!
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For those with practical questions, try to look at Utah http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/05/22/utah-gold-standard-silver_n_865333.html and see how things are going there. I don’t think their economy has been destroyed or heavy wealth distribution has taken place since they included a gold standard. But again, ask people in Utah how they are doing!
It’s strange for me to see a site that has Ron Paul’s name in it, and yet most posts that are critical of fiat money or for some kind of gold standard keep getting very negative votes. While the ones defending fiat money or are against metallic standard get “thumbs up”. Without giving a solution to the current “FIAT problem”, or seeming without even bothering to read up on the subject (i.e. case for gold, americanprinciplesproject etc.). So either there aren’t that many Paul supports on this site, they are not amongst the brightest (at least in how they reply/act) or there is a large divergence.
If this an indication, then not much hope on my part for Paul (same “biased” voting on the daily paul), just a bit better than 2008.
As I came here to get informed, or get a better understanding through discussions, the need to come here has certainly lessened…
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It is rather strange how fiat seems to get props and gold gets slammed. Frankly though, I think there are not as many people as it would seem on the fiat side. Just a few with several avatars giving the illusion of many.
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So explain how people vote more than once?
Then tell us again why YOU do not vote more than ONCE for your pro-gold comments!!!
Jim = Desperate Liar
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Utah did not go to a gold standard, which would FORBID the use of any other form of money besides gold. It is the LACK of sufficient money that causes depressions, and Utah has plenty of paper dollars for those who have no gold.
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Go away Herman fiat shill.
It is plainly obvious that your ONLY goal, is to prop up the status quo and try to dissuade anyone from thinking that there is any possibility to use something OTHER THAN PAPER.
Too bad for you, people are waking up, you are scared. Once the the eyes are open, your deceit, lies, manipulating and plans for globalism will be exposed for what it is.
Fight little troll, your days are numbered. When God returns, will you hold your head high, or in shame?
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LIAR
I oppose the staus quo of PRIVATE CONTROL.
You are an IDIOT who believes in MAGIC, that switching to gold will MAGICALLY solve the PRIVATE corruption!
Plus you are a FLAMING HYPOCRITE name caller too.
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LOL, hypocrite huh? Look at the name you are using for this particular, one of many, avatars.
Now tell me who is the hypocrite.
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The problem here, CAR, is that you are not reading the solutions that have been posted, or any of the past argument. So YOU can claim it does not exist previously, and act confused… people can also believe you are a citizen-jim clone too!
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In my first I mentioned that I hadn’t read all the other posts, and appologized if that meant I skipped, repeated or ignored what had been said earlier.
I assumed that it was common curtesy to redirect me towards previous posts that either explained or argumented…I gues that was a wrong asumption.
So now in a fresh post, I’ll ask you kindly to direct me towards solutions or arguments of past…or if you could recap them your self.
Thanks in advance
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If you don’t want to read what has been posted already, that’s fine. You can do a web search.
1.) Franklin Institute
2.) Franklin’s Script
God helps those who help themselves!
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As you can see CAR, they are primarily interested in calling people names if you even have a slight interest in the possibility of using gold.
Example of how they work: You made a TRUE statement about Utah using gold. They will go around the heart of the statement, and misinterpret, skew and peck at word definitions that you may have used, or go off on some weird tangent.
Apparently, they have never heard of dynamic IP’s either. Or, assume that you can’t make more than one email address, or use some other software to change your IP.
LOL, maybe they/he/it is just hoping that we haven’t heard of any of those things and can’t or won’t point out that little flaw in his thinking.
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What I see are thousands of Citizen posts calling people names, horrible names like FIAT MONEY TROLLS and MARXISTS, and much more… and a FEW posts in RETALIATION.
So as you can see, JIM is a FRAUD!
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Yes, you DO like to call people names.
That is ok though. The net of your own making, is drawing ever tighter.
“Woe to the earth and to the sea, because the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, knowing that he hath but a short time.”
Your time is short.
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YOUR actions betray you, for IF you believed your own bullshit…
…why continue to engage?
Food for thought, though Jim and Citizen are surely starving!
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Why continue to engage?
Quite simple actually. Letting people see how you act, only works in my favor.
Plus, it’s entertaining to see how many different ways you can screw up and twist things around, scream liar when we don’t buy into your funny distorted pseudo logic, or agree with your misinterpretation of what is being said.
Go back to Kansas City where you were at least USEFUL to SOMEBODY.
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So your WHINNING is helping YOUR case?
OK… if you say so!
At least you admitted you are here for entertainment… it explains much. Plus, you NEVER admonished Citizen for name calling, despite the proveable fact that Citizen done this 100 times for ALL other peoples’ use of name-calling. That makes your words as hollow as your head.
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What’s wrong with Kansas City Jim?
It has honorable citizens who produce the food you eat and which you can NOT live without!
I think farmers are the angels of this planet and they do NOT compare with coin speculators who are no different than rat infestation in a corn field!
Shame on you!
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You see Herman? You can’t even get THAT right.
I said, I keep engaging YOU because it’s entertaining, that doesn’t mean I come to the site FOR entertainment. That is sort of true NOW, but it isn’t the REAL reason I come here, you are just an interesting sideshow.
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=====
What’s wrong with Kansas City Jim?
=====
Nothing. I wasn’t putting down Kansas City. Nice try though.
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C.A.R.
Oxymoronic?,
A Honest Money site where the Fiat Paper Money Trolls congregate like moths to a flame, they keep getting burned trying to defend DIS-honest money, but still keep acting like they are aren’t getting burned.
I love their grasping at straws, pointing to fringe historical instances where fiat script had some minor successes, yet ignore the other 90% where Commodity Currency were the money of choice… when there was choice
So the rhetorical question was Asked and Answered…
If you had a CHOICE, would you hold paper or gold coin …
Stated differently
If you had a choice between a $2000 fed res note…. or
an ounce Treasury minted gold coin!
Which would you choose ?
Sadly…. Trolls will fall on their paper swords every time!
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“Which would you choose ?”
If I were a little selfish clod of ailment thinking that I am the only creep on this planet, I would choose gold, and if I am more creepy, I would store it in my safe box for the rainy day, but then if every creep like me does the same, then soon tomorrow would be the rainy day! I may also have to think about gold losing its value when the next door baker goes out of business because I am too stingily creepy he lost his business because of creeps like me who would NOT buy his bread, and then if more creeps like me do the same, there will be less bakery competition in my neighborhood and the loaf of bread would go up in price then I have to pay too much possibly in gold coins for one loaf of bread!
If I were a little more patriot and concerned about the economy of my nation, I would save some of that money, and spend the rest to support the small business owner neighbor of mine believing that it will come back to me in multitude of ways while enjoying life to the fullest extent by consuming the good things in life.
In any case, I do NOT want my money to be either gold or Bernanke’s paper money if I had a third choice…I would want my money to be something like a US Treasury note issued without debt and interest on the debt from a private money monopoly!
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I agree, T.S., but LIARS like Citizen will always twist our TRUE position into something as bad as their golden nightmare!
Really does PROVE the lack of honesty inherent with gold.
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I wonder if there is some kind of harmonic resonance factor going on with our economy.
Boom, bust, boom, bust. It oscillates. It has a frequency. Just like Tesla’s coil, it builds and builds, unless it gets discharged.
Each cash injection increases the amplitude.
I wonder if this has ever even been considered.
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Why do people like Citizen keep LYING, misrepresenting other peoples’ comments, revising history, and generally being rude by name calling anyone who does not support his position as being a FIAT TROLL?
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm………………
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Dear Fah~Q,
Maybe because the “Fiat Paper Money Trolls”
~Make Up nonsense and call them facts
~Use fringe videos and consider them mainstream
~Use racist and bigotry to justify their prejudice
~Regurgitate Marxists Socialism as if it was “new” revelations
I’m sorry… but
Fiat Paper Money is FAILED Keynesian Economic policy,
Government thieft of real wealth…
Political Money…. Social Engineering NO thanks!
Hotly debated. What do you think?
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So without any proof, you accuse then commit YOUR offenses, because we are Marxists?
You need serious help for your delusions, for you sound like a NAZI.
Yes, NAZIS, who always accuse democratic people of being socialists or worse!
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Greetings, All:
I’m not able to enter the debate at the moment, but just wanted to share this very sad article. What happened to this country?
Citizen, the reason the government has to “redistribute wealth” is that the monetary, political, legal and tax systems are all HEAVILY slanted in favor of those with *money*. It takes EYES to see it… but not really…
If you have seed money, you can make money. Without money, it’s really hard to make significant money by our system. It’s hard to get ahead when banks are not lending to the average person. Profit driven… Greed…
Really sad…
Associated Press
In the US, two housing markets and two directions
By MICHELLE CONLIN , 09.21.11, 08:46 AM EDT
In America, it’s starting to feel as if there are two housing markets. One for the rich and one for everyone else.
Consider foreclosure-ravaged Detroit. In the historic Green Acres district, a haven for hipsters, a pristine, three-bedroom brick Tudor recently sold for $6,000 – about what a buyer would have paid during the Great Depression.
Yet just 15 miles away, in the posh suburban enclave of Birmingham, bidding wars are back. Multi-million-dollar mansions are selling quickly. Sales this August were up 21 percent from the previous year. The country club has ended its stealth discounts on new memberships. And Main Street’s retail storefronts are full.
“We’re getting more showings, more offers and more sales,” says Ronnie Keating, a real estate agent with Sotheby’s ( BID – news – people ) International.
Think of this housing market as bipolar. In the luxury sector, the recession is a memory and sales and prices are rising. But everywhere else, the market is moving sideways or getting worse.
the housing market inhabited by most Americans, prices have fallen 30 percent or more since the peak in 2007. That’s a steeper decline than during the Depression. Some people have had their homes on the market for a year without a single offer.
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StoriesVideosAlmost a quarter of American homeowners owe more on their house than it’s worth. Another quarter have less than 20 percent equity. About half of homeowners couldn’t get a mortgage if they applied today, says Paul Dales, senior U.S. economist for Capital Economics.
But then there is the other housing market, occupied by 1.5 percent of the U.S. population, according to Zillow.com. The one with outdoor kitchens and in-home spas; with his-and-her boudoirs and closets the size of starter houses. The one that is not local but global, with international buyers bidding in all cash. And where the gyrations of the stock market are cause for conversation, not cutting expenses.
In this land of luxury properties, the Great Recession seems over. Prices of $1 million-plus properties have risen 0.7 percent since February, according to Zillow. Prices of houses under $1 million have fallen more than 1.5 percent.
Normally, these two segments of the housing market rise and fall together. But now, they’re moving in opposite directions.
“Luxury is the best performing segment of the housing market right now,” says Zillow.com chief economist Stan Humphries.
After every recession since World War II, housing has led the economic recovery. Not this time. The renewed vitality in the comparatively small market for luxury homes is not enough to power a full-blown recovery. This bifurcation in the market is yet another reason Michelle Meyer, the chief economist at Bank of America ( BAC – news – people ) Merrill Lynch, says her housing outlook is “increasingly downbeat.”
The phenomenon is not limited to real estate. You can see the same split in other gauges of the economy. Sales at Saks ( SKS – news – people ) versus Walmart. Pay on Wall Street versus Main Street. Corporate profits versus family balance sheets.
The divide is also making credit a perk of the rich. Mortgage rates are the lowest in decades. But what good are absurdly cheap rates if you can’t get a mortgage? The banks aren’t granting credit to anyone “who even has a smudge on their application,” says Jonathan Miller, founder of real estate consulting firm Miller Samuel. Applications for new mortgages languish at 10-year lows.
Across the country, prices on high-end homes fell after the subprime crash in the fall of 2008. The price on the $25 million mansion became $20 million, then $15 million. Such “bargains” are pushing more luxury buyers to commit to more deals.
There are other factors, too. In Detroit, a recovering auto industry is helping propel high-end sales. All those car executives who have helped turnaround the American auto industry used to rent. Now they are using their performance bonuses to buy homes.
Wall Street’s recovery has brought back the market for mansions in the Hamptons, on Long Island, where the number of closings has returned to the 2007 level, and for luxury co-ops in New York City. And because of social-network riches in Silicon Valley, twice as many homes have sold for $5 million or more this year than last.
But in the other housing market, an apartment tower built in 2007 in San Jose, Calif., recently converted to all-rental. The building had not sold a single unit. In Miami, a city that exemplifies the foreclosure epidemic, idled cranes dot the skyline. Unemployment shot up again this summer from 12 percent to 14 percent, a level not seen since the energy crisis in 1973. There are so many two-bedroom condos in gated communities with golf courses, private pools and rustic jogging paths that you can pick one up for $25,000, 66 percent off the price five years ago. But luxury condos priced at $1 million or more are selling as rapidly as they did during the boom.
“In the 20 years that I have been in South Florida real estate, I have never seen a greater divide between those who have and those who have not,” says Peter Zalewski, founder of the real estate firm Condo Vultures.
One big factor in the divide is foreign cash, at least in the world of property. For international buyers, U.S. real estate is the new undervalued asset, the new fire sale, and foreigners are big buyers of luxury properties. International clients bought $82 billion worth of U.S. residential real estate last year, up from $66 billion in 2009. In states like Florida, international buyers account for a third of purchases, up from 10 percent in 2007.
“Luxury properties are drawing buyers from all over the world,” says CoreLogic’s chief economist, Mark Fleming.
That’s true even in such seemingly all-American enclaves as Detroit. Step off a plane at the city’s futuristic new airport and the internationalization of the Motor City is obvious. All the signs – as well as the announcements on the public address system – are in both Chinese and English.
In the middle of the terminal sits a five-star Westin Hotel, the better to serve the global executive class that jets in and out as the U.S. auto industry regains its footing. Many of them are buying in Birmingham, where home values are up 3.1 percent this year, according to Zillow.com.
In Birmingham, local store owners say business is as good as it was during the boom years last decade. Chasta Fase, who owns Old World Olive Press, a boutique shop that sells $30 bottles of olive oil from all around the world says business “has been just awesome” since she opened her doors in November. And since April, she says, customers have been spending more than ever.
Real estate agent Keating says the same is happening to her sales. In June, she sold a lakefront mansion in Birmingham to a Russian entrepreneur. He had purchased a local steel company that he plans to turn around.
“They’re coming from all over,” says Keating, who for the past 30 years has sold most of the car barons their homes, from Roger Smith, the former CEO of General Motors, to former Chrysler CEO Bob Nardelli. “I don’t know who any of them are anymore.”
Copyright 2011 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.
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Hi Curious…
Holy Cow Bat Woman….
If that is a quick weight in… whewww
OK, my defense
Citizen, the reason the government has to “redistribute wealth” is that the monetary, political, legal and tax systems are all HEAVILY slanted in favor of those with *money*.
********
So 10% of the population pays 80% of the taxes?
And YOU think that’s still NOT thier “Fair Share” (ala Obama)
So would it be better if they paid 100% of the Tax Burden…about $2.4 Trillion of the total Government budget
AND
Who should pay the “other” $1.4 Trillion that the Government spends “TRANSFERING” to welfare recipients.
You know… the other $1.4 Trillion that WE borrow annually as Debt at Interest from the Great Magic Fiat Money Machine… called the FED
“”when banks are not lending to the average person. Profit driven… Greed…”"
***********
Tell me about it… I’m paying 8.5% on a half million in loans for my business…
And YES… I’m a “FOR PROFIT” business
Greedy too
“”Consider foreclosure-ravaged Detroit….brick Tudor recently sold for $6,000″
************
Hmmmmm, you mean the UAW suffocated the American auto industry and is dying?
Are you saying they didn’t create a utopian Workers Paradise? What could have gone wrong…They tried trade tarriffs, feather bedding, strikes, fat pensions… I mean what else is there?
“the posh suburban enclave of Birmingham, bidding wars are back. Multi-million-dollar mansions are selling quickly. ”
************
Must be the Union Bosses ?
OR
All those car executives who have helped turnaround the American auto industry used to rent. Now they are using their performance bonuses to buy homes.?
“I have never seen a greater divide between those who have and those who have not,” says Peter Zalewski, ”
*************
The Great Divide…
A great article….
And ALL POSSIBLE by Governments liberal use of Fiat Money paid to thier favorite Crony Elites…
Proof… fiat paper money is a Political Drug Addiction… it’s an ugly thing
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Citizen….
Stimulus Money = WEALTH REDISTRIBUTION.
WHERE do you think all that money is going?
In the pockets of the poor?
THINK about it…
Talk about wealth redistribution…
‘Nuff said…
Peace.
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=====
Citizen, the reason the government has to “redistribute wealth” is that the monetary, political, legal and tax systems are all HEAVILY slanted in favor of those with *money*. It takes EYES to see it… but not really…
=====
Government HAS to redistribute wealth??? I disagree.
It CERTAINLY IS slanted toward the rich, I won’t argue that. What needs to happen, is to fix the problem about the slanting.
If you start talking about the government ‘redistributing the wealth’, you are talking socialism.
Becoming wealthy through hard work and diligence is laudable. Becoming wealthy through deceit, lying and cheating is not.
The SYSTEM is broken. Fix the system.
Sever the ties of the rich banking families to politics and government. Cut off their access to the fraud of the current systems monetary slush fund.
Prosecute and punish harshly, those responsible for subverting our constitution for their own political gains.
Investigate the mega corporations in pharmaceuticals, the media, education, medicine and others that have been co-oped.
Start enforcing the anti-trust laws. We have monopolies all around, yet no one seems to do a damn thing about it.
We must have REAL competition, not some fake pepsi or coke choice.
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Becoming wealthy through hard work and diligence is laudable. Becoming wealthy through deceit, lying and cheating is not.”
What a buffoon!
It isn’t POSSIBLE to become wealthy through hard work, only through a lack of morality, cheating, stealing, taking advantage of others… this is why the Great Marxists, Jesus Christ, says a wealthy man isn’t going to Heaven.
Matthew Chapter 19
Mark Chapter 10
Luke Chapter 18
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Oh, how christian of you to call me names. Abraham was wealthy for his time. So were most of the patriarchs. It was a reward for listening to God.
Being rich isn’t a sin you moron. It’s harder for a rich man to go to heaven because, most people tend to become fixated on the wealth and drop God.
If you can’t even understand that simple little passage, you are in dire need of help.
Impossible to become wealthy by hard work? Impossible? I am beginning to think the only thing impossible, is for you to be able to even grasp the simplest of concepts.
Go away Herman.
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Hi Jim:
Jim: “Government HAS to redistribute wealth??? I disagree.
It CERTAINLY IS slanted toward the rich, I won’t argue that. What needs to happen, is to fix the problem about the slanting.
Curious: Unfortunately, we’ll all be long gone, likely, before there’s any real changes. In the mean time, there are truly HUNGRY and desperate people out there currently.
It is not a CRIME TO BE POOR, Jim.
Many lack:
OPPORTUNITY
CAPITAL! SEED MONEY
EDUCATION
BASIC HEALTHY NUTRITION AND CLEAN WATER (third world)
I pray you have eyes to see that there are truly needy people in the world, and partly because of exploitation, and because the monetary SYSTEM allows money to concentrate with VACUUM force into the hands of the monied and powerful.
Jim: If you start talking about the government ‘redistributing the wealth’, you are talking socialism.
Curious: The GOVERNMENT and the so-called “elite” have set up this monetary system which IMPOVERISHES people — I think even Citizen would agree — THAT is the CRIME.
Poverty is NOT a crime.
YOU are being fleeced by the same monetary system as the poor are, only they have less money than you do, perhaps, and end up destitute FASTER, is all.
It is a COMPASSIONATE act to help those who are truly in need, and these days there are MANY in that boat — BECAUSE of the MONETARY SYSTEM (and political, legal and tax systems).
In a sense, it is the government’s (and the shadow government) FAULT that people are impoverished… The FEDS control INTEREST RATES AND MONEY SUPPLY. What they do DIRECTLY impacts WEALTH and POVERTY!
Jim: Becoming wealthy through hard work and diligence is laudable.
Curious: MONEY MAKES MONEY. Think about that for a while, Jim.
MONEY “WORKS.” If you have money, it doesn’t necessarily take “hard work and diligence” but rather savvy investments to make money, because of the “business of money.” MONEY ATTRACTS MONEY.
Jim: Becoming wealthy through deceit, lying and cheating is not.
Curious: In this economy I can assure you there are genuinely needy people, and to insinuate that they are lying and cheating is adding “insult to injury,” “salt in the wounds.”
Next time you eat out somewhere or go to a store and negotiate with a clerk, keep in mind they may be having a very hard time making ends meet and have more month left over than money to cover it.
Blessings and Peace.
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And you think that using the same paper money used to create all the poverty etc, is the solution to the problem THAT IT CREATED????
Here, you’ve been poisoned, drink some more poison, that ought to help. Help who?
That is your logic??
Jim: Becoming wealthy through deceit, lying and cheating is not.
I am talking about the big banks and corporations here, not poor people. I was not insinuating that the poor were doing that, the banks are.
I agree that people have few options these days. There is nothing wrong with helping people stand on their own two feet. However, there ARE people who are not willing to stand on their own two feet and only want handouts, oh look at me, I’m poor, give me something. Sure I will give you something, the opportunity to HAVE a job. The opportunity to become well off. The opportunity to have equal access to all the things that are needed to help you grow and become prosperous.
The opportunity to just sit on your butt and take hand outs? No.
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Hi Jim:
Jim: And you think that using the same paper money used to create all the poverty etc, is the solution to the problem THAT IT CREATED????
Curious: Remember we both sort of came to the SAME conclusion that it’s not the FORM of the money but rather the PEOPLE that control the money that is the problem.
I can assure you that if we were to return to a gold standard, that the gold standard in and of itself would CREATE MORE PROVERTY, not solve it! Guaranteed.
Jim: Becoming wealthy through deceit, lying and cheating is not.
I am talking about the big banks and corporations here, not poor people. I was not insinuating that the poor were doing that, the banks are.
Curious: From your post, it sure didn’t SEEM as though you were referring to the BANKS. It really came across as though you were insinuating that the poor were cheating.
Don’t do a “Citizen” on me, Jim. What I mean is “speak with forked tongue.” In other words, a “SPIN JOB.”
Jim: I agree that people have few options these days. There is nothing wrong with helping people stand on their own two feet. However, there ARE people who are not willing to stand on their own two feet and only want handouts, oh look at me, I’m poor, give me something.
Curious: Sometimes people need a little help getting up on their feet. That is the NATURE of our MONETARY SYSTEM. It takes money to make money: LOANS, education, a roof over your head, decent clothing. Can’t get a job without something decent to wear, right, Jim? Where does it come from IF YOU HAVE NO MONEY?
Jim: Sure I will give you something, the opportunity to HAVE a job. The opportunity to become well off. The opportunity to have equal access to all the things that are needed to help you grow and become prosperous.
Curious: And YOU would do that HOW?
THAT’S the problem that the FEDS and the government can’t seem to SOLVE!
Capital flight to China, Brazil, India, Indonesia…
Peace.
The opportunity to just sit on your butt and take hand outs? No.
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Hi again, Jim:
Whoops. I missed your last comment:
Jim: The opportunity to just sit on your butt and take hand outs? No.
Curious: Are you talking about PUBLIC STIMULUS MONEY NOW, JIM?
Those are HANDOUTS TOO.
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That’s because you think it’s the government who should control it. That’s the problem.
In reality, I don’t NEED money. I NEED food, shelter and clothing for me and my family.
Unfortunately, I am forced to use money to get those things.
Hard currency is the best solution, given all the possibilities yet known. Paper is a fail.
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Hi Jim:
Curious: Do you see the inconsistencies in the following two statements, Jim?
Jim: “Money is money right? Doesn’t matter WHAT it’s made of.”
Jim: “Hard currency is the best solution, given all the possibilities yet known. Paper is a fail (failure).”
Curious: THE GOLD STANDARD FAILED PREVIOUSLY. That’s why we went OFF of it! The government reneged….
Peace.
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Jim:
“That’s because you think it’s the government who should control it. That’s the problem.”
Money will be controlled, if not by PUBLIC government with open accountability, then by PRIVATE bankers who practice all manner of deciet, from fractional reserve banking to inflating the currency. That is what we have right now and I oppose it. PRIVATE CONTROL over PUBLIC money. Only an ignoramous or a gold speculator will argue otherwise!
You do not want government to control money?
Then who does?
Don’t say the market, that is absurd. There is no “market” in reality, the “market” is a fictional construct of the mind, a philosophy if you will. What the “market” is when it comes to control is what people like Warren Buffet, George Soros, David Rockefeller, and the rest of the Rothschild Dynasty DECIDE… not WE THE PEOPLE.
That is why men institute governments to begin with, to protect WE THE PEOPLE from this gang of theives that hide behind philosophical concepts like this “free market” which is anything but free!
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=====
Curious: Are you talking about PUBLIC STIMULUS MONEY NOW, JIM?
Those are HANDOUTS TOO.
=====
Yup, those are handouts too. I am talking about social welfare. Being FORCED to subsidize those too lazy to work. I believe, it is up to each individual, whether they want and or can, help another individual.
=====
Don’t say the market, that is absurd. There is no “market” in reality, the “market” is a fictional construct of the mind, a philosophy if you will.
=====
Oh, so just because YOU say there is no market, it must be so, and shouldn’t dare to even bring it up.
That is so ludicrous, it goes beyond all belief. When farmers used to take the product of their labor to sell, where did they go? THE MARKET!
What happened at that MARKET. They sold their wares at what ever price they could, based usually on supply and demand, or traded it for some other commodity at some kind of rate of exchange based on relative value.
Oh, but according to you, they were all just doing this in some fictional construct of the mind. Uh huh. I see.
Is it possible to pervert the market? Yes, maybe Joe who grows potatoes, got a witch to curse the land of Fred, who also grows potatoes, thereby giving Joe great leverage on the control of the price of potatoes that week.
Does that mean ‘the market’ doesn’t exist? No, it means someone is screwing around with it.
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Jim,
Welfare is a BRIBE to keep the poor from rioting!
You prefer to return to the violence that was gripping America before welfare? The wealthy need to either provide employment opportunities HERE in America, or expect to get murdered for their greed, because the poor are not going to accept injustice.
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I would agree that welfare is a form of a bribe.
But then you imply that we NEED to bribe the poor or they would revolt? That the bribe is just fine because otherwise there will be rioting in the streets?
The poor should NOT accept injustice, neither should the wealthy.
Justice for ALL.
There are times however, where the people MUST stand up to those who seek to dominate them or be enslaved.
Bribing the people is total bs. It works, for a while, but the very fact they HAVE to bribe the poor, tells you they are not doing what they are supposed to be doing.
The poor and anyone else who are under the yoke of tyranny SHOULD rise up.
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=====
Curious: From your post, it sure didn’t SEEM as though you were referring to the BANKS. It really came across as though you were insinuating that the poor were cheating.
=====
Now this is funny. Came across as though I was insinuating the poor huh?
Here is the EXACT statement I made: “Becoming wealthy through hard work and diligence is laudable. Becoming wealthy through deceit, lying and cheating is not.”
The point is, profiting from lying, cheating and deceit, whether poor or wealthy, is WRONG. But again, I really pretty much had in mind the bankers and corporateers. Like my new word?
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“Does that mean ‘the market’ doesn’t exist? No, it means someone is screwing around with it.”
No one is saying “markets” do not exist, what is being said is “free” markets do not exist, “free” markets are a philosophy, not a tangible reality.
Why twist this unless you are motivated by greed or are you too dumb to understand and just made a mistake?
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======
No one is saying “markets” do not exist, what is being said is “free” markets do not exist, “free” markets are a philosophy, not a tangible reality.
======
It exists if people are left alone to do their thing with whatever currency they decide to use.
Free, means unencumbered or unfettered by interference of external forces, such as restraining laws or mandates for example.
Your assumption that it is impossible, is the same mindset of the media whores, who say that it is impossible for Ron Paul to win.
A defeatist attitude. Screw that.
It is impossible to go to the moon.
It is impossible to travel across the country in a matter of hours.
It is impossible that the world is round.
The impossible becomes possible, when we believe that it is.
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No Jim, it is impossible for all people to be honest and truthful, so these evil persons will corrupt the market, rendering it far less than free.
It is very possible for Ron Paul to win, especially now that the world has seen how weak Rick Perry truly is, plus what conservative in their right mind would want Mitt Romney?
We must continue to carry the liberterian message of our Founders, and refuse to believe the lies that the Corporate Media keeps spreading about Ron Paul not being viable. For Christ’s sake, we the voters decide who is viable, not Khazars who control the television programming!
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Well, I CAN agree with all that.
I have never said using gold is silver is incorruptible, but it is the best of the tools that we have. Paper is a no win for the people.
I take exception with one thing in your post. You say, “…what conservative in their right mind would want Mitt Romney?”
While I agree, voting for any of those clowns besides Ron Paul, will end up in tragedy for the American people, I have a problem with labels. Conservative, in this case. I understand what you mean, and I am sure it wasn’t meant to be anything major, but we must be careful about labels.
I do tend to lean conservative, I guess, based on what definitions I have seen, but I haven’t really considered it until recently.
I think of myself more as an American who believes in the constitution.
I am an American who wants whats best for my country and it’s people. Put whatever label you want on that.
We are so conditioned to label things. With those labels come perceptions and views and emotions that, very often, cloud our ability to view things in their true perspective.
It is very subtle and pervasive. It is very hard to realize that we are doing it. But we DO, do it.
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I disagree with your OPINION that gold and silver are the best tools. Historical fact proves that opinion of your to be bogus.
I also disagree that paper is a no win for the people. Franklin proved otherwise as his 54 years of paper money have produced the most stable price system (for that length of time or longer) EVER.
Gold can’t do this for a SINGLE DAY, neither can silver.
History proves you wrong, Jim.
Yesterday’s devaluation of gold 6% proves you wrong, Jim.
Yesterday’s deva;uation of silver 18% does likewise, Jim.
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SHOW ME your, ‘historical’ fact.
Let’s say lemons truly are the best citrus fruit.
Let’s say oranges are ok, but aren’t the best.
I put out a huge media campaign and use distorted facts and maybe even tinker with a few things to make it appear, that oranges are better.
I get people to believe it. They believe it for many many years. It still isn’t true, but I maintain my media blitz to keep reinforcing the notion. Some people DO realize that it is not true, but they get muted.
So now, is it historic FACT that oranges are better than lemons?
Or is it, that because of my efforts, I just have more people believing that oranges are better.
That is, until the people wake up to my game.
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TS,
PLOT EXPOSED??
You saying, conspiracy?
In the last 30 days, gold has lost 113 points as of this moment, but we have *********
NO, the ECU is buying American USD to protect their down side… gold is being shorted by the temporary strength of the Dollar!
That’s 113 Fed Notes… almost “nothing” in the scheme of things!
am I missing something?
*******
YES…. YOU definitely are!
You can NOT leave the redemption rate to the market.
******
WE have no choice, otherwise the Government becomes a Tyrant and dictates market values… WE the PEOPLE set the values NOT governments
“”Again you guys spin around the money business. You want to turn our economy into money-gold dealing. “”
************
And your point is that the current Fiat Paper Money system IS NOT “money dealing” of the worst order and magnitude??
Surely you’re not that naive?
FIAT money Trolls” want to use whatever form of money we have and create a real economy.
**********
You continue this false notion that just printing “interest free money” creates wealth? YOU do NOT “create real money”
REAL MONEY is a tangible asset with intrinsic value… Paper is NOT money…
it is a note, a money substitute, a promise to pay in hard asset value…
The WORLD ECONOMIES are awash in Paper Money and Cyber Cash in their False Bank Accounts!
So why are they floundering?
Why are there NO jobs?
Why has TARP and QE2 and soon QE3 failed….
BECAUSE no one can just PRINT WEALTH!
“”We believe prosperity comes from creation”"
***********
But not printing money, economies are based on real values, real commodities bought and paid for and exchanged for other REAL COMMODITIES…
PAPER is how Governments, dilute and steal OUR national wealth!
“when some people have ringing coins of gold and others still have FIAT money that is being cursed!”"
*******
Your CLASS ENVY and FEAR are evident
“”I think that is the ultimate goal of gold conversion. It is to buy up the whole planet for few gold coins.”"
***********
PARANOIA… when ALL debts, payrolls and transactions are conducted in gold and silver coin… ALL will possess the gold as a common currency…
Right now gold and silver are controlled by a select few rich…WE must ALL own it.
“”Just another tactic of robbery except a huge one this time!”"
WHAT!! You think they are going to steal your worthless paper money???
And the next Hitler comes along promises Social Justice and prints some money with a pseudo swastika symbol and tells you its “interest free”
Just Say No!
” There is just no way to make it fair…”
*****
Make it “fair” means making interest free loan with paper money made out of thin air….
Nothing from Nothing …. is NOTHING!
“”gold and FIAT could operate side by side while the “free market” playing its dirty game to install gold in place of paper money!”"
*********
Of course not…. honest money, if permitted as Legal Tender, chases out bad money. People will choose and hold the Honest Money and they will dispose of the paper crap money. People will begin to only work for Honest Money, Stores will only accept honest money and eventually the fiat paper will vanish because of rejection and disuse.
“our gold dollar would be worth hundreds of thousands of the FIAT paper dollar.”"
WRONG, the hundreds of trillions would be repudiated because MOST of that US currency is NOT held by American Citizens, only LEGAL AMERICAN Citizens living IN-Country will have redemption rights. The rest will have less favorable redemption rights…. tough but fair.
“Overnight, my house would be worth one gold dollar and my farm would be worth two! “”
*********
EXAGGERATION, NO… but there would be a general OVERALL RE-Valuation of all assets… but your Big Mac would cost $0.12 silver coin instead of the $4.25, and the super size would be $0.15 silver coin
“” Transition must be definite, exact, and predictable. Otherwise?
PLOT EXPOSED! “”
***********
Yep, just like life, guaranteed and trouble free… a regular Merry-Go-Round
All aboard!!!
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“the Constitutional Convention when the Founding Fathers condemned the
Continental and tried to protect us from the ravages of another political currency.”
The Minority Gold Report 1982
Yet the Fiat Paper Money Trolls insist that paper currency is “honest” money but offer nothing but socialists platitudes for printing without restraints.
The best I’ve read from the Trolls on this site is that paper money should be “issued debt and interest free” to promote “production” of SOCIAL make work benefits.
Just more of the same “Political Currency”
The link on the Reagan Presidential commission about the Gold Standard is a real eye opener, it repudiates the lame arguments that the Trolls use to promote their Paper Money agendas…
Sorry Trolls, read it and rage away…
http://www.cato.org/case-for-gold/
It is the model that TruthSeeker, Curious and others really doesn’t want to read!
OH… Did I mention that Dr. Ron Paul and Lewis Lehrman wrote the report in 1982!
p.s. Its a Free Download….
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This video is from the 2008 campaign, but still valid today:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SzaLP9dTXhE&feature=related
Ron Paul speaks after JFK and MLK, all three brought tears to my eyes.
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Great video drove me emotional I had to rewind it twice to fully pay attention to its content!
Money, secrecy, police state, wars, conspiracy, racism, arrogance, greed, poverty, crimes have characterized our sick culture dominated by Satanic cults called the the elite!
Thanks for sharing!
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This one is a bit disturbing:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91qs9v-upWI&feature=related
Saw a few comments here about this stuff a couple of weeks ago, then found this today and decided to share. What is most disturbing is what Hitler is saying about the Illuminati / Khazars and how the German people are in a life and death struggle against them.
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Hello Spanky
Where do you Trolls find these fringe videos?
I mean really, what are you Conspiracy Trolls doing wandering and stumbling onto the Honest Money blog on the Ron Paul site?
Are we supposed to be impressed? What’s your point?
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Plan to destroy America:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MC4Ydg0mRgQ&feature=related
Shame on us for allowing this!
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Col. Forrester
I concur, 98 years ago, our political elites handed the financial power over to the Rothchilds fiat money schema, “The FED”, a banking system designed to defraud the citizens while benefiting the Politically well connected…
Dis-Honest Money run by Dis-Honest Men!
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Actually, Alexander Hamilton first handed over our monitary system to the Rothschilds in 1792 with the creation of the First Bank of the United States, a PRIVATE owned bank that loaned paper money to the government and demanded gold and silver as repayment for those debts as per your beloved Coinage Act of the same year.
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With all the real problems facing most Americans, lack of quaility jobs (opportunities are disappearing), weather changing, endless wars, growing violence across the nation, illegal immigration, etc.; it is amazing that there are people here worried about what money is. I never heard a single person in my life tell me gold is money, never once. Gold is gold, a rare metal, an idol to be worshiped by the Luciferians, but then money is too I guess? How sad for these people, to be away from God’s love and basking in the golden glow of Astaroth.
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I didn´t take the time to read everything, so if some of this has been explained/mentioned above, sorry.
The coinage act defines the dollar to be a weight in silver (approx 27 gr standard silver), not gold. Not one said that a coin had to be solid gold…but if it will be gold, one could set the such a coin to have the same value as such a weight in silver (assuming current prices of both metals).
“What would be the redemption rate of the FIAT paper money to gold? What is the ration? Would it be at the current gold market value? Would we fix the gold market value for a while until the end of the transition period whatever that means?”
My understanding is that at first people would just be able set prices, maybe buy/use such coins…or use the paper “dollars” of now. There would be a simple conversion rates, I assume the 27 gr of silver/gold of current prices. The paper money would fluctuate much faster than the gold, so I think prices would rather fast end up being mainly in a metallic standard. By fixing the market value for gold, I assume you mean against paper money? Well since a “metallic” dollar would have a set value, the market would set the value of the paper money.
The main problem I would have is how the currency reserves around the world would react. Assuming the paper dollar would become almost worthless, there would be huge sell-outs from all over the world?
You could look at what happened during the transition in Europe from local currency to the Euro.
“Would we be issuing gold coins only, gold and gold certificates, plastic cards gold backed?”
In theory I don´t see why there would have to be large changes made….most people probably wouldn´t want to carry large sacks of metal coins around, and a simple conversion ratio would take care of the digital money. So I don´t see much of a change happening in the daily life of people.
“What do we do with financial obligations (debts) from the pre-gold time? Would we have to re-write it again? If we do, what would be the guideline?”
Well one could convert it at what ever the current metallic/paper ratio would be. But the longer one would wait, the small the debt (just as “regular rampant” inflation would take care of debts). So my guess is that most borrowers would try to convert ASAP, while debtors would want to delay as long as possible?
“How do we change tag prices in everything of goods and services, or adjust wages, salaries, bills, savings and all other finances affected by the transition?”
Again, the same way when a currency has been changed before, like with the Euro…post two prices, which would most likely quickly become one (the metallic one).
“Say we coin a half ounce dollar Eagle, would it be worth $900 of this FIAT money, more, less? Please articulate your answer with as much details and sense as possible.”
with the 27 gr of silver, that would roughly give a price of 56 (metallic)$/ounce (with approx 1200 usd/kg silver and gold 1800 usd/ounce), were 1 metalic dollar have the value of 1/56th of an ounce of gold, the price of gold being set. That is roughly 32.4 usd “fiat money”.
I hope those are usable answers, albeit less coherent. I would like to add a few questions. What about fractional banking, where does Ron Paul stand on this issue? If allowed, which laws would be needed to curb the FED regarding a metallic standard? If not, who would pay to store to money (assuming that most people will use “will pay bearer x on demand” bills)? Would the national bank just be THE depository, taking upon it self the fees of storage? What about foreign investors, how would they stand regarding such a fee?
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When you are replacing one form of money with another as a government entity, you can NOT turn the process into buying and selling with “free market” speculation. Again my fears and concerns are met with your ugly approach. All you think of the entire deal is money business…buying and selling coins! The term “buying” is NOT even appropriate in this context. You could only redeem because you are only replacing one system with another. This process of conversion as you propose is another predatory opportunity for coin dealers (money changers) as we have advised against many times before. Deal anything you want except money, but apparently that is your religion and you do NOT see anything wrong with that. You may choose to follow your own religion, of course you are entitled to, but you can NOT force it onto others. Your proposed system of gold would make money dealing the next phase of monetary chaos and total economical collapse. Instead of producing and trading useful goods and services using money to facilitate the process as means to the end, people will turn into money changing machines as money becomes the ends in itself! Why NOT when all you have to generate wealth although on the expense of the needy is to buy low and sell high at the whim of the “free market—the coin dealers in this instance?”
Good for you, but NO THANKS!
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“with the 27 gr of silver, that would roughly give a price of 56 (metallic)$/ounce (with approx 1200 usd/kg silver and gold 1800 usd/ounce), were 1 metalic dollar have the value of 1/56th of an ounce of gold, the price of gold being set. That is roughly 32.4 usd “fiat money”.”
Sorry at this price for gold, there is NOT enough gold to redeem all the FIAT paper dollar money on this planet. As such only the early birds would get the gold or silver coins at a fair price; the rest are doomed! The first-come-first-served policy is NOT an adequate solution to replace a monetary system. This is more of a lottery deal than redemption. I am sure as there becomes less gold and silver coins to redeem the paper money for, the prices of gold and silver coins will skyrocket! My grandmother who is unable to push through the gold hungry crowds would be the first victim of this predatory deal of system conversion!
Good for you gold bugs, but NOT THANKS!
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You sorta prove the point in saying there isn´t enough gold for all the fiat money around…shouldn´t that be an indication that there is no backing for the current fiat currency?
Also when a metallic standard is introduced, that metal will have a set price, it will not fluctuate!!! That´s one of the points in having it as a standard
Which means if the state decides on a certain price of gold (as an example 1800 $/ounce), then the currency of that state will be 1/price (1 $ would be worth 1/1800th ounce in the example), and the price of gold would not change!
If you take pre war Germany as an example for historical inflation. Based of the story of dr. Melchior in his autobiography, where he tells how his father in-law finally ended up selling his house because he got offered “such a good deal”…he got the money, which depreciated while he got it, so he could only buy a car I think it was, which he sold and bought other goods, which he sold all the while inflation eating away the value. He ended up with enough money to buy a loaf of bread at the end, for a much higher amount than he he got for his house.
If (read when) the dollar crashes because either the backers are tired of lending the USA money, or the reserve currency changes the same thing could happen to the dollar. Yes people would loose a lot of values, but the government would end up with almost no debt.
How is that different from the scenario of a metallic standard? Why is that preferable?
Yes the paper money would have very large inflation numbers, but at least there would be a standard that might protect most of the values.
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I confess that your post (and one made on a radio forum regarding “ethnic groups sit on the worlds gold”) made me look up the various gold reserves and debts around the world.
What amazed me a bit was that cnbc put the US as the “least” indebted nation amongst the 15 countries they picked…despite the fact that other countries in general have less than 1 trillion $ in debt, compared to the 14+ trillion $ the US has. It really is a wonder that no one (around the world) seems to see the staggering numbers as dangerous, especially when you compare the countries in Europe that were helped and how small their debts are in comparison.
That you your self point out that there isn´t enough gold to to cover the debts/reserve currency fiat money, just points out that since there is no backing, yes people are indeed using paper that doesn´t have any real value.
oh well, on to reading the case for gold
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TS,
“Sorry at this price for gold, there is NOT enough gold to redeem all the FIAT paper dollar money on this planet”
Sure there is… just means it takes a lot more paper to exchange “redeem” to the available gold!
M2 money is about $8.9 Trillion and we have 890 million oz gold
You do the math…
Oh, by the way… the gold didn’t shrink..
Someone “blew up” the paper!
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CARS
“”most people probably wouldn´t want to carry large sacks of metal coins…
Nor would they, electronic banking with cards will continue regardless. The exception being that Banks would hold 100% reserves in gold, there would be no room for Frac Res Banking shenanigans as we have now.
“What do we do with financial obligations (debts) from the pre-gold time? Would we have to re-write it again? If we do, what would be the guideline?”
*****
NO, the conversion date would legally re-define existing Fed Res Note debts in terms of gold and or silver weights. Your $200,000 home mortgage would be a 112 oz in gold coin, payable in gold coin of Krugerrand, Maples, Panda, Eagles, Ducats, Vienna…. or 5,000 oz in silver
What a concept… a material asset (house) is compared with another material asset (gold) or (silver) etc.
I hope those are usable answers, albeit less coherent.
They ARE good answers…
The “Case for Gold” by Dr. Paul refines many of those questions…
Its free for download in PDF format!
QUESTIONS:
***What about fractional banking, where does Ron Paul stand on this issue? **
END THE FED…. and require banks to hold 100% reserves… Most banking operations would go away, only Sound Banking Depositories of real money would be operational. Loans would be BACKED by gold or silver on depsoit AND the asset value as collateral Mark to Market!
***curb the FED regarding a metallic standard? ***
The FED must go!
bullion coins will be Legal Tender by weight and purity… ALL currencies.
***Would the national bank just be THE depository, taking upon it self the fees of storage? ***
Banking is PRIVATE business, The Treasury is Government accounting of Government PUBLIC business….
States can and should mint gold and silver coins of a set value
The Coinage Act of 1792 specifies the WEIGHTS of the currency… the “NAMES” (5 dollar, 10 eagle etc) are attributed to the weights….
What about foreign investors, how would they stand regarding such a fee?
****
Fees for exchanges are what banks do, to exchange foreign paper currencies because of inherent risks. Currency Traders will almost become obsolete, once world currencies establish a common weight and purity coin standard, exchanges are instant, interchangeable weights no difference!.
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LOL
Citizen ridicules the Franklin model (because it works) stating it is 18th Century ergo non-applicable to today, yets keeps quoting that other 18th Century act of the federal legislature (1792 Coinage Act) without even realizing the hypocrisy of his own bullshit!
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Hi Citizen BS
LOL,
Yes… one failed.. the other succeeded
The Continental Dollars and PA script eventually failed
The Coinage Act was a great success lasting from 1792 to 1933
When FDR… the Prince of Fiat Paper Money SCAMS finally
stole our our money and gave us paper… and
LIED, telling us Social Security would save us
LIED, telling us Davis-Bacon would spread the wealth
LIED, telling us Government work projects would create a great American
LIED, telling us Unions were the future
LIED, telling us our money was safe in Fort Knox
Tell me, how is that Hopie – Changie stuff working out for you?
Don’t Worry…Just Print More!
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Franklin’s script NEVER failed… stop LYING, citizen!
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Plus, you are LYING about the Coinage Acts… yes ACTS, as the one you love so much… 1792, was in effect REPEALLED when the 1834 coinage act CHANGED the ratio of gold to silver… a DEBASEMENT of the silver dollar.
Then again, you may have your own form of MATH too?
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Back from the Dead!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=ziDiOUsQLw4
Yee~he, sha~moan, who’s bad?
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can u handle dis?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okXv8THLcnk&feature=related
von clausewitz
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Hehe, nice song.
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I like Ron Paul as a candidate against the others out there and follow his progress, but in regards to money supply, he (and every other candidate) is missing something…
The US money supply measured in net terms (dollars owned less dollars owed to others) is in actuality a huge short position in the trillions of dollars, driven by a cycle of dollars leaving the country (via foreign trade deficits) then re-entering (via governmental borrowing from foreign sources and subsequent deficit spending).
Government deficit-spending is thus “hard-wired” into the economy (to counter the trade deficits) to replenish consumer-liquidity… to repeat the cycle.
This is why debt (of all kinds) is soaring… government, business, credit-card, etc. It is the “other side” of the foreign-trade deficit.
I am a professional trader (one who trades stocks for a living). I share my research on the economy (robry825.blogspot.com) out of concern for this country. (The monthly statistics published in the press are antiquated… traders such as myself use daily “real time” data, though few share theirs publicly).
To me, the political side of the United States has become overly-simplistic, and probably severely uninformed. We as a nation need to wise up, and wise up fast.
-Rob
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I would like to know if we all agree tomorrow we convert to gold standard, how the transition to gold is going to be implemented? I would like step by step algorithm:
What would be the redemption rate of the FIAT paper money to gold? What is the ration? Would it be at the current gold market value? Would we fix the gold market value for a while until the end of the transition period whatever that means?
Would we be issuing gold coins only, gold and gold certificates, plastic cards gold backed?
What do we do with financial obligations (debts) from the pre-gold time? Would we have to re-write it again? If we do, what would be the guideline?
How do we change tag prices in everything of goods and services, or adjust wages, salaries, bills, savings and all other finances affected by the transition?
Say we coin a half ounce dollar Eagle, would it be worth $900 of this FIAT money, more, less? Please articulate your answer with as much details and sense as possible.
I am waiting for good answers.
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The Transition to Gold
The transition from the present monetary system to a sound system will probably not be painless, as some have suggested. Whenever the increase in the supply of money slows, there are always recessions. They are the inevitable consequences of the previous inflationary boom. The present system, relying as it does on the political creation of new purchasing power rather than the economic creation of such power, has distorted and disrupted the pattern of economic activity that would result were the markets for goods and money allowed to function freely. In any transition to a sound monetary system there will, of necessity, have to be readjustments made in various sectors of
the economy. Such readjustments will temporarily hurt certain individuals and enterprises. The alternative, of course, is to continue with our present system and destroy the entire economy with the evils of hyperinflation and
depression. It is our conclusion that the temporary economic hazards of the transition to a gold standard are far less significant than those posed by a continued attempt to make the paper system work.
We have a precedent for a return to gold in the 19th century. During the Civil War, the Union had issued United States notes that were not redeemable in gold. In that respect, they were somewhat similar to the Federal Reserve notes that circulate today. A major difference between the experience following the Civil War and our situation
today is, of course, that the U.S. gold coinage continued to circulate during and after the war. Today, such coins have been removed from circulation by law, and they must be restored to circulation by law. That is essentially the recommendation of the Commission, a recommendation that we fully support. Such an action will facilitate the transition to a full gold coin standard. Once it is achieved, the transition to a full gold standard could be done as simply as during the 19th century, with the economic consequences roughly the same.
We must now discuss the transition effect-not the long-term effects-of monetary reform on various sectors of the economy. We have selected six sectors for brevity’s sake: real estate, agriculture, heavy industry, small business, exports, and banking. Let us begin with real estate.
Transition Effects on the Real Estate Sector
The concern of many people with monetary reform is that it will affect them or their businesses adversely. They would prefer to continue with the present system, hoping that it will not collapse, rather than seeking to correct it through fundamental change. In this attitude, they are similar to the patient with an abdominal pain who refuses to be examined by a doctor, hoping that the discomfort will cease or at least not worsen. When his appendix bursts, however, the patient realizes that he would have been much better off to have the needed examination and surgery in time. At least the surgery-the timely correction of the problem-would not have threatened his life.
How will a transition to gold affect the real estate market? It is important to realize that there is no single real estate market, but several. The commercial market is quite different from the residential, for example. Within the residential, the single-family housing market is quite different from the rental housing market. While there may be factors that affect all markets, it is necessary to realize that the various markets will be affected differently by the same factors, and also by different factors.
During the last 10 years of paper inflation, real estate of all sorts has become both an inflation hedge and a haven against exorbitant taxation. In a transition to gold, there will be falling inflationary expectations, and, if our recommendations are pursued, lower taxes. Both these effects will gradually eliminate the desire to use real estate as a shield against inflation and taxation. The result generally will be falling prices for real estate of all kinds, as people shift from protecting their capital in real estate to more productive enterprises. It is likely the paper values of both residential and commercial properties will fall during the transition to a sound money system.
This in turn would have several effects. First, as residential prices fall, more young couples who cannot afford a house at the present time would be able to purchase. More houses-but at lower prices-would be sold during each year of the transition to gold. For state and local governments this would mean an expanding property tax base, but it would also offer some relief to the badgered homeowners who have seen their property taxes skyrocket because of inflated housing prices. The passage of Proposition 13 in California in 1978 was a result of this property tax rise. With a transition to gold, homeowners across the whole nation, not just California, would be afforded some tax
relief.
Lower home prices will eventually translate into a booming market for both single-family and rental units, spurring new construction. Lower prices would also affect all forms of commercial property, allowing more economical expansion ofthe business use of property.
Along with lower prices, there will be lower interest rates. Market interest rates are ordinarily divided into three components by economists: originary interest, the risk premium, and the inflation premium. As the transition toward gold is accomplished, the inflation premium would gradually disappear, as the people’s confidence in money was restored. It is also probable that both the risk and originary components would decrease, although not nearly so much as the inflation component, for people will once again begin to plan for longer than 12 months into the future. And as
the size of government shrinks, the risk premium will also shrink. One great area of risk and uncertainty-actions by federal bureaucrats and regulators-will be eliminated.
Falling interest rates would also encourage greater activity in all real estate markets. The result would be greater access by first-time owners-younger couples and small businessmen.
Transition Effect on Agriculture
Closely related to real estate is agriculture. Speculation in real estate in the past 10 years-speculation resulting from inflation and taxation by the government-has caused the price of prime farmland to be bid up to levels higher than prevailed 10 years ago. One serious consequence of this has been the almost total inability of new, small farmers to buy farms, and of older small farmers to retain farms. High land values, while giving many farmers paper wealth, have raised property taxes exorbitantly, and have forced more and more small farmers to sell out to larger competitors. The result has been the growth of agribusiness and euthanasia of the family farmer.
During the transition to a gold system, interest rates and land values would both fall, the former primarily because of lower inflation expectations, the latter primarily because there would be far less demand for land as an inflation hedge.
A parallel may be found in the 19th century. From 1880 to 1890, immediately after the return to the gold standard, the number of farms in the U.S. increased by over 500,000, the number of acres on these farms by almost 90 million, farm productivity by 10 percent, and the value of farm output by over $800 million.
During this time, however, farm commodity prices were falling, an effect of the transition to gold that many fear. But wholesale prices for the goods farmers used were falling as well, faster than were prices for the goods they produced. The real income of farmers-and of all workers-was actually rising during this period, unlike, for example, the past
10 years. The transition to a sound monetary system, while it may adversely affect a few farmers and real estate
holders, will enormously benefit most, and will allow more entry into farming.
Transition Effects on Heavy Industry
One of the prime benefits of sound money and small government is the low long-term interest rates that prevail in such an environment. During the 19th century it was common for 100-year bonds to be offered and sold at 4 percent and 5 percent, and even for bonds in perpetuity to be sold at those rates. Today, after a decade of paper money, longterm means three years, and the prime rate is 16% percent. Transition to a gold system will include a fall in interest rates from their present historically unprecedented levels to levels approximating those of the late 19th and early 20th centuries. For the decade 1880-1889, three-to-six-month commercial paper averaged 5.14 percent. Call money averaged 3.98 percent. Railroad bond yields averaged 4.43 percent in 1889.
Such rates will once again allow heavy industry to expand, perhaps even matching the unsurpassed real growth for the economy in the decade 1879-1889. The recent concern about the revitalization of America, or the “reindustrialization of America” is a genuine and legitimate concern. What is important to realize, however, is that it is the paper money, high tax, and regulatory policies of the government that have impeded long-term planning and capital investment. Anyone who expresses concern about the industrial strength of America and advocates a continuation of the policies that have caused the present recession/depression has not yet learned elementary economics.
Some heavy industries that have been “protected” by government action may suffer some setbacks when that “protection” is removed. However, if regulatory burdens and subsidies are eliminated in an evenhanded fashion during the transition, those industries, as well as others, should quickly enjoy rapid growth.
Further, there will be a desire of investors, now concerned about sheltering their capital in the unproductive areas of real estate, collectibles, and gold coins, to invest in productive enterprises. There would be a market shift of investment from such “speculative” areas to industry.
Transition Effects on Small Business
The shift of capital investment from the more “speculative” areas to the more productive will directly affect small business. The stock market would come to life, perhaps even making up for the horrendous losses in constant dollars it has suffered since 1965. Business investment would skyrocket, and a great deal of this investment would flow to smaller businesses. As with real estate and farming, it would be the newcomer-the young couple buying a house, the young farmer, and the small businessman-who would benefit most during the transition to economic and monetary freedom.
Small businesses would no longer be crushed by large corporations and bloated government absorbing all the capital in the capital markets. Funds would flow to establish new enterprises rather than being invested in Treasury
securities at 14 percent or 15 percent. A gold system would see the gradual elimination of “hot money”-a phenomenon that did not exist before the formation of the Federal Reserve in 1914-racing from investment to investment as interest rates fluctuated.
The growth in small business would, of course, mean the creation of new jobs. The unemployment that is an inevitable product of a paper money system-after all, John Maynard Keynes liked the system because it was a device to cheat the workers-would be eliminated and fall to the frictional rate, perhaps two percent or three percent.
The transition to freedom would also mean the gradual elimination of the “underground economy,” since the reasons for its existence, high taxes and inflation, would disappear. Such illegal economic activities would once again become part of the official economy. The elaborate bartering systems that have evolved in the past 10 years would
be ended. It is ironic that opponents of gold deride transactions made in gold as a form of barter, for it is precisely the high-tax, paper-money system that encourages barter as a way to avoid both taxation and inflation.
Transition Effects on Exports
To understand the effects of the reforms we recommend on export industries, it is necessary to keep two more fundamental effects of the transition in mind: No more general price increases will occur, and interest rates will actually fall by at least 50 percent. Price stability in all products, including those for export, will open up greater overseas markets for U.S. goods. On the other hand, the present complicated system of export subsidies-such as guaranteed loans and direct loans-will come to an end during the transition to freedom, and those companies (and banks) that benefitted from such sweetheart deals with the government will have to make it on their own or fail.
The government’s policies for the past 10 years and longer have diverted a great deal of capital, that should and would have been invested in the U.S., to foreign nations. This misdirected investment would be corrected during transition, as foreign aid programs were phased out, the Export-Import Bank eliminated, and the various other government programs that have put us in a very precarious position are terminated.
In the long run, of course, exports are not a worry. No one worries about the balance of trade or the balance of payments between Texas and California or New Jersey and New York. With the end of a paper system, with its chaotic exchange rates, some semblance of order will return to the world economy. The exporting of inflation will be gradually eliminated, and rather than moving toward protectionism and isolationism, the international economy will gradually open up to further investment and trade.
Export industries may be the most affected of all industries during a transition to a sound money system, but that is only because they have been so heavily subsidized by a government that has had to print the paper to subsidize them. In the long run, such industries also will benefit from a return to freedom.
Transition Effects on Banking
The last of the six sectors is perhaps the one that will be most adversely (in the short run) affected by the reforms we propose. To understand why this is so, one must understand the cartellization of the financial industries in the 1930s, accomplished primarily by the McFadden Act and the Glass-Steagall Act. The breakdown of this cartel has already begun, as a result of the high interest rates now prevailing, and it will proceed whether the reforms here suggested
are adopted or not. The only question is whether a new cartel or whether freedom will be allowed to flourish.
The McFadden Act, among other things, forbade interstate branching. Chase Manhattan could open a branch in Moscow, for example, but not in Minneapolis. This resulted in a great deal of interest in overseas loans, with a tremendous diversion of capital from domestic to foreign investment. The Glass-Steagall Act, among other things, erected a wall of separation between banking and commercial enterprises, a wall that now more resembles a Swiss cheese. But such a separation, combined with other restrictions on free entry, enhanced the privilege and profitability of banks.
The reforms we advocate include free entry into banking. Anyone would be permitted to open a bank and issue 100 percent redeemable notes simply upon filing the legal documents with the county (or state or federal) clerk. Such free entry will result in greater competition in the banking industry, and lower margins of profit. Not only would the
competition benefit consumers financially, more and more services would also be offered. Thus if Any town Savings and Loan wished to give away toasters for new deposits, the Depository Institutions Deregulation Committee could not stop them from doing so. And if their neighbors, Any town Credit Union, wished to offer electronic funds
transfer and free travelers checks, no regulator would prevent that from happening.
But there are further effects that would become apparent during transition to a gold system. As interest rates fell, the current crisis among financial institutions would be alleviated. Unless such a transition begins quickly, we can
expect to see the most massive failure of depository institutions in our history. A movement toward sound money, while opening up all financial institutions to the sort of competition they should have faced all along, will, at the same time, relieve some of the pressure on the most critical of these institutions. The alternative, of course, is massive government bailouts costing tens-perhaps hundreds-of billions of dollars.
Conclusion
We have selected these six sectors of the economy as bases for discussing what effects a transition to monetary freedom will have on the economy. While the results have not been uniformly optimistic, it is clear that the major effects of stable prices and falling interest rates will open all sectors up to newcomers: new farmers, new homeowners, new small businessmen, and new bankers. Those companies that have been subsidized by the government will suffer most from a movement toward freedom. Those that have profited from the misdirection of capital investment by the government will also suffer. A “gold standard recession,” however, would be quite different from a paper money recession, such as we are now suffering. Were the government to refuse to interfere with the adjustment process, the recession would be over very rapidly, as we saw in the last “free market recession” of 1921. 1 And while the recession would be short, it would also not be sharp. There would undoubtedly be a tremendous outpouring of new savings and investments in response to the new confidence in honest money and the
realization that inflation was a thing of the past. The transition to a gold system will bring increasing prosperity, real growth, lower unemployment, higher real wages, and greater capital investment. The transition to freedom, in short, is the only way out of the economic crisis we are now in.
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Your posts are 3 minutes apart, which no person could type out, so since you copied and pasted this extensive piece here, the least you could do is provide the link URL so we could check the sources of the actual author you plagiarized, Jim.
Otherwise, the ressessionary quality of a contracting money supply has absolutely nothing to do with the preceeding inflation. There simply is not enough money available to pay people, so jobs disappear for no person will become a willing slave and work without compensation!
But liars will state the nonsense from whereever Jim’s article eminates, because they desperately desire for you to buy their bullshit that forced destitution is a virtue.
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Not even going to bother with you.
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BTW, just for the record, that came from a minority report.
In 1982, Rep. Ron Paul and Lewis Lehrman served on the U.S. Gold Commission, commissioned by Congress to evaluate the role of gold in the monetary system. Paul and Lehrman produced a landmark minority report: The Case for Gold. Published in book form by the Cato Institute that year, the report covers the history of gold in the United States, explains how the breakdown in its use as a financial standard was caused by government, and details the critical need for sound money — where prices reflect market realities, government stays in check, and people retain their freedom.
Suck on that Snidley.
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Snidely Self Ignorant Troll (clone #33)
So read the book…
Published 1982, commissioned by Pres Reagan,
Written by Ron Paul and Lewis Lehrman
Its free…. even YOU can afford free!
http://www.cato.org/case-for-gold/
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Yeah, but can he read?
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Obviously better than a drop-out like Jim!
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Go away Herman.
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Jim,
Sometimes the best way to evade a question is to give a too long answer. I am afraid you did that. My questions were very direct, simple, and inquisitive. They can be answered in few sentences provided that you the had the answer. I get the feeling that someone does NOT want the truth to surface out about the disaster of converting over to gold.
I asked the question many times before: how in hell we are going to convert to gold with this countless FIAT money? What is going to be the ratio of redemption? I do NOT want to hear that this FIAT money is worthless and we are just going to throw it away because no one sane would believe or accept that. Again how much money is floating out there and how we are going to redeem it? I do NOT want to hear apologies about the damage caused by the FIAT system either, because I believe the damage was caused by the bastards who robbed us and will rob us again when we convert over to gold! So just answer the inquiry if you could.
BTW, gold prices have been pathetic lately. If they could lose or gain 30 points in one day, then they can NOT make sound honest money. If money should be treated as a commodity, it must be the most stable commodity of all. Apparently, gold money has NOT provided the stability of honest or sound money. Gold standard is worthless without also fixing the value of gold. We have established that both historically and philosophically. Only an idiot would continue to ignore or argue against that.
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Well, I wasn’t TRYING to avoid the question. It is a subject that covers a lot of different aspects, and has an impact on so many things.
I was a little leery about putting up so much, but, from what I have seen of your posts, you seem to at least be intelligent. So I thought, even though it was a rather expansive response, you would be able to absorb it.
Honestly, you have to look at many things if you are going to try and do this. I thought that at the very least, it would give you some idea of what you would have to do, and how those things would or could impact some of the main issues, in regard to monetary policy and it’s impact on an economy.
=====
I asked the question many times before: how in hell we are going to convert to gold with this countless FIAT money?
=====
Specifically, if I understand things right, you can exchange at what ever rate works. You seem to think that it will happen in an instant, it doesn’t have to. You can introduce gold coins and make them acceptable as legal tender, WHILE STILL USING the paper. Then, let the market do it’s thing.
If you read what I posted, you should understand, it takes more than just minting the coins, you have to address legal tender laws and many other things to make the transition as smooth as possible and have it work.
=====
BTW, gold prices have been pathetic lately.
=====
WHY do YOU think gold prices have been erratic?
Personally, I think gold has been erratic, because paper has been erratic, boom bust, boom bust etc. When people lose faith in the value of paper or anything else for that matter, they dump it for something they think is better, very often that is gold.
Don’t you get it? Gold prices are REACTING to the conditions that the PAPER money has created. The inflation created by creating more paper money, which devalues the paper.
Gold prices are a market reaction to the chaos that fiat is creating, if we stopped printing more money, things would stabilize. The problem is, we KEEP putting in more and more paper instead of stopping.
Are you familiar with Tesla and the concept of resonance?
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In the last 30 days, gold has lost 113 points as of this moment, but we have NOT created any new money in the past 30 days, or am I missing something?
You can NOT leave the redemption rate to the market. That is what makes gold/money the business of our economy. Again you guys spin around the money business. You want to turn our economy into money-gold dealing. We on the other hand, “the FIAT money Trolls” want to use whatever form of money we have and create a real economy. We believe prosperity comes from creation, NOT from wealth transfer. In the creation mode, something is born and added to the bulk of our wealth. In the transfer of wealth mode, money moves from the lower hand to the upper hand without anything added to our existing wealth.
Yes I could only imagine how lovely it would be when some people have ringing coins of gold and others still have FIAT money that is being cursed! I think that is the ultimate goal of gold conversion. It is to buy up the whole planet for few gold coins. Great for gold investors, but ultimate disaster for FIAT backwards! I think the motive has become very clear. Just another tactic of robbery except a huge one this time!
If you are serious about gold conversion, you should NOT as first measure damage the interest of the existing economy. You must be big enough to deal with the rot of the old system and resolve it fairly. It does NOT seem that you really care beyond seeing some shiny coins in your pockets. There is just no way to make it fair, and I sensed that long time ago. It seems on the other hand that some folks want it to be another ploy for money changing business. There is no way gold and FIAT could operate side by side while the “free market” playing its dirty game to install gold in place of paper money! That is just insane to think about!
If I am NOT mistaken, we have dollars in paper money around the globe in the trillions, NOT to count the digital and virtual money. So with a couple of hundred billions of gold money replacing the trillions floating around, our gold dollar would be worth hundreds of thousands of the FIAT paper dollar. Overnight, my house would be worth one gold dollar and my farm would be worth two! What a great plan! Transition must be definite, exact, and predictable. Otherwise?
PLOT EXPOSED!
NO THANKS!
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Well obviously, you DIDN’T read it.
BTW:
=====
In the creation mode, something is born and added to the bulk of our wealth.
=====
Just ‘creating’ more paper money, DOES NOT ADD TO THE BULK OF OUR WEALTH!
It’s PAPER. Created out of thin air. It IS NOT WEALTH!
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Truthseeker, you must have a lot of money, you sure sound like you are afraid of losing a lot of something.
I live from paycheck to paycheck, I have NOTHING to lose and everything to gain.
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TS,
Oh come on fellow…. use a bit more courtesy and READ the book…
If you guys really support Ron Paul… then read the book and understand the principals
You’re shaming yourselves by acting like adolescents…
Come on… you can do better!
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Why do stupid people like Citizen insist one did not read the book?
Because they don’t agree?
Citizen reminds me of an Islamo-fascist… same insanity!
Highly rated. What do you think?
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I wonder if there is some kind of harmonic resonance factor going on with our economy.
Boom, bust, boom, bust. It oscillates. It has a frequency. Just like Tesla’s coil, it builds and builds, unless it gets discharged.
Each cash injection increases the amplitude.
I wonder if this has ever even been considered.
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Jim,
your mind and soul are very twisted. I decided that I will stop exchanging intellect with you. Debating is NOT referring others to your preferred library. If the book is so convincing, how come you could NOT outline and defend its contents? I am NOT judging the book because it may be after all a good book, but I am judging your lack of intellect to defend or present its content. It is YOUR job, NOT mine to read the book and defend its theme. I could ask you to ready an entire library of books in hope to convince you with one single theme that you do NOT accept, but in vain! You have the burden of proof, NOT mine. You say that gold works, so prove it. It is NOT my job to read your resources if you can NOT articulate them!
Grow up man and have some decency please! You have NOT impressed me at all. From the beginning, I knew something was NOT right about you. David thought I was too harsh on you, but I hope David have had the time lately to see how you roller coast with your posts. You have mastered the art of smart mouth BS jiggling, but nothing else.
Anyway, I am getting busier and I am getting tired of repetition. I support Ron Paul on most of his issues. I will vote Ron Paul, but I think he is off on the gold standard thinking that it will stop the fraud. As I said many times, I have no problem with gold money, but I know that gold bugs are up to something really dirty. They have been the beneficiaries of the FIAT system they claim to despise, and they will be the beneficiaries of the gold conversion deal! Since they abused both systems, I want to have nothing with either! Trash gold and trash their FED notes. This may sound like begging the question, but we need Constitutional money? What is Constitutional money Jim? Take a course in Constitutional law, now how does that logic sound to you Jim?
Sorry, but we already explained what Constitutional money is. Goodbye!
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How do you come to the conclusion that it is my JOB to tell you ANYTHING?
I was giving you the courtesy of a link to a source that may or may not help you to understand the concepts involved. It is YOUR CHOICE whether you read it or not. It is NOT my JOB to write a condensed version or a book report to save you the trouble of reading it.
If you truly seek to understand, I can point you in the direction, but I cannot walk the path FOR YOU.
I have no burden of proof. This is not some kind of courtroom. There are no rules regarding the dissemination of information. Learn or don’t learn. The choice is yours.
What exactly is YOUR definition of a gold bug? I’m not rich, I have no ulterior motives, I just want what I believe would work best for everyone. My understanding of things leads me to believe that Ron Paul is right. After all, he HAS been studying this for over 30 years, AND has about 30 years experience working in government which gives him great insights as to the inner workings of things.
How can you possibly discount his opinion? He sure as hell knows more about it than I do. Do you think YOU know more than he does?
At least read the mans book and TRY to understand it. You may not agree, but keep in mind, he had every resource available to him as to historical fact. A work of this type HAS to have ACCURATE facts or it is useless.
Take it for what it is.
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TS,
You’re WRONG AGAIN…
“Sometimes the best way to evade a question is to give a too long answer. I am afraid you did that. My questions were very direct, simple, and inquisitive. They can be answered in few sentences provided that you the had the answer. I get the feeling that someone does NOT want the truth to surface out about the disaster of converting over to gold.”
**********
The answer is clear and well defined, like Ron Paul wrote back in 1982 “Case for Gold”
But the Fiat Paper Money Trolls find it’s much EASIER to DISMISS the facts with rants about social injustice, greed, unfairness and endless Marxist platitudes…
Honest Money “gold standard” just makes Paper Trolls angry, because the don’t want “honesty”
The want Santa Claus!
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Thanks Citizen,
It was a rather lengthy response, but concise as can be, considering the scope of the topic.
I thought it answered his questions pretty good if he only read it, AND understood it.
I guess some people are too acclimated to sound bite responses, and have difficulty understanding concepts and ideas that don’t fit within the 60 second time frame. Answers with depth, tend to confuse them.
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VI. The Transition to Monetary Freedom
Our present monetary system is failing. The time is ripe for fundamental monetary reform. Yet there are two distinct and different processes through which this reform may be achieved. We have already discussed the type of monetary system most desirable; yet there are different methods of reaching that goal. For simplicity’s sake, we shall refer to these procedures as “descending” reform and “ascending” reform. The first term refers to action taken by the government directly to create the system desired; it is from the top down. The danger ofthis type of reform is that
the government will not create a real gold standard but a pseudo-gold standard. The second term refers to the absence of government action and the subsequent appearance of the reforms despite the government’s inaction; it is bottom-up reform. There is a third type of reform which mixes both the ascending and the descending procedures whereby the government clears the obstacles now impeding reform from the bottom up. It is our opinion that this third type of reform would be the least painful for reasons shortly to be made clear.
During the course of a monetary crisis-such as we are experiencing now-there comes a time when descending reform becomes much more difficult. It is our belief that we have not yet reached that point, but that we are rapidly approaching it. There is still time to proceed with the reforms outlined below, but that time is rapidly slipping away. In order to achieve this descending reform, the Congress must quickly repeal certain laws that have created our present crisis: the legal tender laws, the authority of the Federal Reserve to conduct open-market operations, and so forth. Failure to do so will result in a complete collapse of our economic system.
The process of mixed reform is preferable because it can achieve the desired end with a minimum of injury to the people. It can avert an economic calamity if executed in time; but should descending reform not occur in time-and it now appears that it will not, given the unwillingness of the Commission to make more far-reaching recommendations to the Congress-we can hope that ascending reform will still be possible.
Should the Congress not adopt the reforms we advocate, we can expect our economic situation to deteriorate further. First, there will be a continuation of both price increases and high interest rates. Such prices and rates may fluctuate in a cyclical pattern, but they will not secularly decline. The prime rate has already reached 21.5 percent. Perhaps within a year it will move to 25 percent, fall back, and then surge ahead to 30 percent. The exact figures are not as important as realizing that the present irredeemable paper money system is just that: irredeemable. Such systems have not worked and cannot work for any significant period of time.
Further cyclical price and interest rate increases will, in tum, trigger many more bankruptcies, both commercial and personal. Bank runs, panics, and holidays will occur as the people lose confidence in the financial institutions. Such collapses will, in tum, trigger higher unemployment-reaching levels not seen since the 1930s-larger federal deficits, and further inflation. The paper economy is a circle of dominoes; once they start to fall, they bring others down with them. Real wage rates will slide; applications for welfare will accelerate.
These economic events will have social and political consequences; inflations always do. The inflation ofthe 1920s led to the rise of Hitler in Germany, and that of the 1940s to the victory of Mao Tse-tung in China. The increase in the size and scope of government is a significant effect of such crises, yet it is the effect that threatens to choke off any possibility of ascending reform. Such reform, when it comes, will have to emerge from the marketplace, either through the legalization of competing currencies, or through development in the underground (illegal) economy. Economists already believe that there may be an underground economy in the U.S. one-fifth the size of the official
economy. With the collapse of the official money and the official economy, the underground economy might be able to shift to using silver and gold coins, and thus some ascending reforms might be possible.
However, simply waiting for the present system to collapse is neither responsible nor moral. As members of the Gold Commission, we must urge Congress to act upon our specific suggestions for reform as speedily as possible. We do not believe that we overestimate the gravity of the present situation, and we think it is better by far to be two years too early than two days too late.
Specific Reforms Required
The growth of the American government in the late 19th and 20th centuries is reflected in its increasing presence and finally monopolization of the monetary system. Any attempt at restoring monetary freedom must be part of a comprehensive plan to roll back government and once again confine it within the limits of the Constitution. That comprehensive plan may be divided into four sections: monetary legislation, the budget, taxation, and regulation. We shall begin with monetary reforms, and conclude with a word about international cooperation and agreement.
Monetary Legislation
Legal Tender Laws
As we have seen, the Constitution forbids the states to make anything but gold and silver coin a tender in payment of debt, nor does it permit the federal government to make anything a legal tender. One of the most important pieces of legislation that could be enacted would be the repeal of all federal legal tender laws. Such laws, which have the
effect of forcing creditors to accept something in payment for the debts due them that they do not wish to accept, are one of the most tyrannical devices of the present monetary authorities.
Not only does the Federal Reserve have a coercive monopoly in issuing “money,” but every American is forced to accept it. Each Federal Reserve note bears the words, “This note is legal tender for all debts, public and private.” The freedom to conduct business in something else-such as gold and silver coin-cannot exist so long as the government forces everyone to accept its paper notes. Monetary freedom ends where legal tender laws begin.
The United States had no such laws until 1862, when the Congress-in violation of the Constitution-enacted them in order to ensure the acceptance of the Lincoln greenbacks, the paper notes printed by the U.S. Treasury during the wartime emergency. That “emergency” has now lasted for 120 years; it is time that this unconstitutional action by the Congress be repealed. Freedom of contract-and the right to have such contracts enforced, not abrogated, by the government-is one or the fundamental pillars of a free society.
Defining the Dollar
A second major reform needed is a legal definition of the term “dollar.” The Constitution uses the word “dollar” at least twice, and it is quite clear that by it the framers meant the Spanish-milled dollar of 371% grains of silver. Since
1968, however, there has been no domestic definition of “dollar,” for in that year redemption of silver certificates and delivery of silver in exchange for the notes ended, and silver coins were removed from circulation.
In 1971, the international definition ofthe “dollar” as %2 of an ounce of gold was also dropped. The Treasury and Federal Reserve still value gold at $42.22 per ounce, but that is a mere accounting device. In addition, IMF rules now prohibit any member country from externally defining its currency in terms of gold. The word “dollar,” quite literally, is legally meaningless, and it has been meaningless for the past decade. Federal Reserve notes are not “dollars”; they are notes denominated in “dollars.” But what a “dollar” is, no one knows.
This absurdity at the basis of our monetary system must be corrected. It is of secondary importance whether we define a “dollar” as a weight of gold or as a weight of silver. What is important is that it be defined. The current situation permits the Federal Reserve-and the Internal Revenue Service for that matter-to use the word any way they please, just like the Red Queen in Alice in Wonderland.
No rational economic activity can be conducted when the unit of account is undefined. The use of the meaningless term “dollar” has all but wrecked the capital markets of this country. If the “dollar” changes in meaning from day-to day, even hour-to-hour, long-term contracts denominated in “dollars” become traps that all wish to avoid. The breakdown oflong-term financing and planning in the past decade is a result ofthe absurd nature ofthe “dollar.” There is very little longterm planning occuring at the present. The only way to restore rationality to the system is to restore a definition for the term “dollar.” We suggest defining a “dollar” as a weight of gold of a certain fineness,
.999 fine. Such a fixed definition is the only way to restore confidence in the markets and in the “dollar.” Capitalism cannot survive the type of irrationality that lies at the basis of our present monetary arrangements.
A New Coinage
We are extremely pleased that the Gold Commission has recommended to the Congress a new gold coinage. It has been almost 50 years since the last United States gold coins were struck, and renewing this constitutional function would indeed be a cause for celebration and jubilee.
We believe that the coins should be struck in one ounce, one-half ounce, one-quarter ounce, and one-tenth ounce weights, using the most beautiful of coin designs, that designed by Augustus Saint Gaudens in 1907. A coinage in such weights would allow Americans to exchange their greenbacks for genuine American coins; there would no longer be any need for purchasing Canadian, Mexican, South African, or other foreign coins. Combined with the removal of capital gains taxation on the coins and the elimination of all transaction taxes, such as excise and sales taxes, the new American coinage could quickly become an alternative monetary system to our present paper monopoly.
In addition to the new official coinage, private mints should also be permitted to issue their own coins under their own trademarks. Such trademarks should be protected by law, just as other trademarks are. Furthermore, private citizens should once again enjoy the right to bring gold bullion to the Treasury and exchange it for coins of the United States for a nominal minting fee.
In the last six years, Nobel laureate Friedrich Hayek has called attention once again to the economic advantages of a system of competing currencies. In two books, Choice in Currency and Denationalization of Money, Professor
Hayek proposes that all legal obstacles be removed and that the people be allowed to choose freely what they wish to use in transactions. Those competing monies might be foreign currencies, private coins, government coins, private bank notes, and so on. Such unrestricted freedom of choice would result in the most reliable currencies or coins winning public acceptance and displacing less reliable competitors. Good money-in the absence of government coercion-drives out bad. The new coinage that the Gold Commission has recommended and which we strongly endorse is a first step in the direction of allowing currencies to compete freely.
The Failure of Central Banking
By a strict interpretation of the Constitution, one of the most unconstitutional (if there are degrees of unconstitutionality) of federal agencies is the Federal Reserve. The Constitution grants no power to the Congress to set up such an institution, and the Fed is the major cause of our present monetary problems. The alleged constitutional authority stems from a loose and imaginative interpretation of the implied powers clause.
Functioning as the central bank of the United States, the Federal Reserve is an anachronism. It was created at a time when faith in control of the economy by Washington was growing, but since it started operations in 1914, it has caused the greatest depressions (1929-1939), recessions (too numerous to mention), inflations, and unemployment levels in our nation’s history. The only useful function it performs, the clearing of checks between banks, could be much better handled through private clearinghouses or eliminated entirely by electronic funds transfer. Given its record, there simply is no good reason for allowing the Federal Reserve a monopoly over the nation’s money and banking system. Eliminating the power to conduct market operations must be achieved if we expect to stop inflation and restore monetary freedom.
Such a step may alarm some, however. They might be concerned about what will happen to all the Federal Reserve notes now in circulation and what they will be replaced with. First, the present Federal Reserve notes would be retired and replaced by notes redeemable in gold or silver or some other commodity. Such notes would be similar to travelers checks now in use which are, at the present time, redeemable only in paper notes. Like travelers checks, such notes would not be legal tender and no one would be forced to accept them in payment. And since they would be promises to pay, any institution that issued them and then failed to redeem them as promised would be subject to both civil and criminal prosecution, unlike the Federal Reserve, which is subject to neither.
As for the present circulating Federal Reserve notes, they could be made redeemable for gold once a “dollar” is defined as a weight of gold. Anyone who wishes to redeem them could simply do so by exchanging them for gold coins at his bank.
It is important to note that should we institute a gold standard before the Federal Reserve System is ended, that
system must function along classical gold standard lines. As Friedman and Schwartz pointed out, it was the failure of the Federal Reserve to abide by the classical gold standard rules that caused the panic of 1929 and the subsequent depression.
In chapters two and three, we demonstrated the disruptive effects fractional reserve banking has caused in the United States. Since we still suffer with that system, it is imperative that a fundamental reform of it be made. That reform is simply that all promises to pay on demand, whether made in the form of notes or deposits, be backed 100 percent by whatever is promised, be it silver, gold, or watermelons. If there is any failure to carry 100 percent reserves or to make delivery when demanded, such persons or institutions would be subject to severe penalties. The fractional reserve system has created the business cycle, and if that is to be eliminated, its cause must be also.
Audit, Inventory, Assay, and Confiscation
One of the areas in which we believe a majority of the Gold Commission erred is in not requiring a thorough and complete assay, inventory, and audit of the gold reserves of the United States on a regular basis. Perhaps there is less of an argument for such a procedure when the gold reserves are essentially stable, but when there is any significant change in them-as will happen when a new coinage is issued-careful scrutiny of the government’s gold supplies is necessary.
There have been cases of employee thefts at government bullion depositories, unrecorded shipments of gold from one depository to another, and numerous press reports about millions of dollars worth of gold missing. It seems elementary that the government ought to ascertain accurately its reserves of this precious metal, and that the present
10-year “audit” of the gold inventory is totally inadequate for this purpose. We are quite sure that the Federal Reserve has a much better idea of how many Federal Reserve notes are printed and circulating than the Treasury does of the weight and fineness of its gold assets. This irrational treatment of paper and gold must be corrected immediately.
Finally, there are laws on the books empowering the President to compel delivery, that is, to confiscate privately owned gold bullion, gold coins, and gold certificates in time of war. There can be no monetary freedom when the possibility of such a confiscation exists.
The Budget
One of the standard objections raised against a gold standard is that while it may have worked in the 19th century, it would not work today, for government has grown much larger in the past 100 years.
There is an element of truth in such an argument, for the gold standard is not compatible with a government that continually incurs deficits and lives beyond its means. Growing governments have always sought to be rid of the discipline of gold; historically they have abandoned gold during wars in order to finance them with paper dollars, and during other periods of massive government growth-the New Deal, for example.
Because gold is honest money, it is disliked by dishonest men. Politicians, prevented from buying votes with their own money, have learned how to buy votes with the people’s money. They promise to vote for all sorts of programs, if elected, and they expect to pay for those programs through deficits and through the creation of money out of thin air, not higher taxes. Under a gold standard, such irresponsibility would immediately result in high interest rates (as the government borrowed money) and subsequent unemployment. But through the magic of the Federal Reserve, these effects can be postponed for awhile, allowing the politicians sufficient time to blame everyone else for the economic problems they have caused. The result is, as John Maynard Keynes said many years ago, that not one man in a million understands who is to blame for inflation.
Because the gold standard would be incompatible with deficit financing, a major reform needed would be a balanced budget. Such a balance could easily be achieved by cutting spending-surprising as it may be, no cuts have been made yet-to the level of revenue received by the government.
But beyond that, there should be massive cuts in both spending and taxes, something on the order of what President Truman did following World War II, when 75 percent of the federal budget was eliminated over a period of three years. Honest money and limited government are equally necessary in order to end our present economic crisis.
As part of this budget reform, the government should eventually be required to make all its payments in gold or in gold denominated accounts. No longer would it be able to spend “money” created out of thin air by the Federal Reserve.
Taxation
In order to make such gold payments, the government should begin accepting gold as payment for all taxes, duties, and dues. As a tax collector, the government must specify in what form taxes may be paid (or must be paid), and it should specify that taxes must be paid in either gold or silver coins or certificates. Such an action should occur, of course, as one of the last actions in moving toward a sound monetary system. All of the other reforms discussed here should be accomplished first. Such a requirement to pay taxes in gold or silver would yield the necessary flow to put the government on the gold standard and allow it to make all payments in gold.
But long before this is achieved, since gold is money, there should be no taxation of any sort on either gold coins or bullion. The Commission has judged rightly in recommending that capital gains and sales taxes be eliminated from the new American coinage. We would go further, in the interest of monetary freedom, and urge that all taxation of whatever sort be eliminated on all gold and silver coins and bullion. That would mean the elimination of not only capital gains and sales taxes, but also the discriminatory treatment of gold coins in Individual Retirement Accounts, for example. Persons saving for their retirement should be free to keep their savings in gold coins without incurring a penalty. One reform that might be accomplished immediately would be to direct the Internal Revenue Service to accept all U.S. money at face value for both the assessment and collection of taxes. At the present time, the IRS accepts pre-1965 silver coins at face value in the collection of taxes, but at market value in the assessment of taxes. This policy is grossly unfair, has no basis in law, and should be corrected immediately.
Regulations
Together with monetary, tax, and budget reforms, a comprehensive plan for a gold standard and monetary freedom requires several improvements in our present regulatory structure.
For example, mining regulations, which make it difficult and expensive to open or operate gold and silver mines, would have to be eliminated. All regulations on the export, import, melting, minting, and hoarding of gold coins would also have to be repealed.
But the major reforms needed are in our banking laws. Under present law, there is no free entry into the banking industry; it is largely cartelized by the Federal Reserve and other federal and state regulatory agencies. Deregulation of banking, including free entry by simply filing the legal documents with the proper government clerk, is a must for monetary freedom. All discretion on the part of the regulators must be ended.
At the same time, there would need to be stricter enforcement of the constitutional prohibition against states “emitting bills of credit.” It must be clearly recognized that the states, neither directly nor indirectly through their creatures, state chartered banks, may get into the paper money business.
A Constitutional Amendment
Although we believe that there is actually nothing in the Constitution that legitimizes our present banking and monetary arrangements, the present system has been with us for so long that a constitutional amendment is probably needed to reaffirm what the Constitution says.
We propose that the following language become Article 27 to the Constitution:
Neither Congress nor any state shall make anything a tender in payment of private debts, nor shall they charter any bank or note-issuing institution, and states shall make only gold and silver coins as tender in payment of public taxes, duties, and dues.
An International Agreement
While the achievement of monetary freedom can be accomplished without any international conferences or agreements, there is no need to spurn such conferences should they be requested by other nations, or should they be thought advisable simply as a way of informing other nations of our plans. Were we to adopt the proposals outlined in this Report, the dollar would once again become as good as gold, and paper currencies would fall in value against it on the international exchanges. In that case, one would expect other nations to define their currencies also as weights of gold, simply out of self-defense. Were that to happen, we would see the end of the worldwide inflation
that has plagued us since 1971. Fixed exchange rates-though not fixed by any international agreement-would also result, simply because currencies would be defined as weights of gold.
Thus, the wholly domestic reforms suggested here would have worldwide repercussions, international effects that would solve one of our most troubling problems: worldwide inflation and the breakdown of world trade.
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Jim,
I’ve read this before… but I can’t remember where??
Could you provide the book reference ?
TS asks the question as to “how” could we move to a “gold standard”…
The biggest obstacle is the Government’s vested interest in TOTALITARIAN CONTROL….
To many Political Interests are at stake and the Political Elite are not likely to abandon their Self Serving Agendas….
I’ve addressed everyone of these steps in previous posts, attempting to express the concepts in laymen language and in terms common enough that ALL might approach the Standard with only a modicum of monetary or economic education.
Its difficult to challenge the Status Quo with a generation that has known nothing other than Fiat Paper Money…
TS… if you are serious, it would be better to suggest a common available existing text that defines a transition to Honest Money…
The “process” is far to involved to completely vet on this simple Ron Paul web site… But there are some fundamentals that will happen regardless and they will happen when the dollar collapses
We are nearing 6,600 posts… that’s one heck of a subject history. Wow!
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Here ya go Citizen,
http://www.cato.org/case-for-gold/
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CATO organization… stinkin’ Elite propaganda source. These are the same guys telling us how good it is for America to ship our jobs to Communist China. CATO is anti-American, like the Khazars who created it.
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“Another feeble attempt to promote the Fiat Paper Printing standard is the reference to the Third Riech Nazis as an example of a prosperous boom period where the Nazis party ran the economy in the late 1930′s. Fiat Paper does work for War Time economies when a totalitarian regime controls ALL the means of production…. but eventually, peacetime comes and people begin insisting on being paid in REAL money and the paper looses its “authoritarian proscribed value”"
Citizen,
You just proved the point that money is just what people are willing to put faith in. The argument is NOT about what best suits peoples’ vanity; it is about what actually works or could work without the pricey overhead of precious metal based money. Sure gold is alluring and everyone likes gold including the ones who do NOT want the gold standard, but that is NOT the equivalent of necessitating that money must be gold in order to function. I told you before that gold would have been wonderful money if we had enough of it and if it was NOT already monopolized. I would say the same thing about copper, aluminum, wood, plastic, or any other medium. As we have seen throughout coinage history of our money, we had to change the alloy mix proportions to maintain the value of the metal coin relative to the market value of the metal it was made of. When raw copper exceeded the value of the metal coin it was made of, we had to reduce the amount of copper in the metal coin or else the metal coin could have been scrapped out and sold as raw metal for more profit!
So if it could work during wartime, it could also work during peacetime. The rest is all mental orientation. For many people including myself, money is a promise to pay—a legal authority that facilitates trade, no more and no less. As such, money is a political creature which derives its existence and force from the society by which the money is created. Gold apparently was NOT that important or valuable to the Natives when the Spaniards were sailing around the oceanic risking their lives looking for gold! Gold as anything else in life is what we give subjective value to. If our cultural values, say through some very strong religious teachings, changes and becomes less interested in gold, then demand for gold suddenly would drop and next thing you know, gold prices are down too! That in fact could happen right now as we speak. If the majority of our citizens somehow start thinking that gold is NOT that valuable and stop investing in gold, you will definitely see a huge drop in the gold market around the world! This suggestively cold be a tactful way to drop the prices of gold for those who like to own it but can NOT at this point! All you have to do is start a successful propaganda against gold, and here you have it!
Enjoy the sun out there Citizen!
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TS,
“”money is just what people are willing to put faith in. “”
In desperate times, people will do desperate things…. and governments are notorious for defrauding their “subjects” and fleecing them at every opportunity.
“”it is about what actually works or could work without the pricey overhead of precious metal based money. “”
That’s the POINT!… pricey precious metals…. make them WORTH something. And where the government has to mint coins of real value… from tax collections and not just print paper to fund special political interests.
Sound-Honest Money means governments can no longer “Deficit Spend” using borrowed money at … “Debt Credit”
“”that is NOT the equivalent of necessitating that money must be gold in order to function.”"
I grant you that… almost anything can function as money… but the most popular throughout human history has been precious metals because of its intrinsic properties, small, durable, divisible, etc.
Few other things meet those criteria….
“”if we had enough of it”"
There is more than enough to be used as currency and for large government transactions. For the most part, it’s an “accountability” tool, a standard of measure that doesn’t need a “currency trader” to interpret and value currency exchanges based on some vague or arbitrary notion.
Just look at the Euro… the PIIGS are causing it to collapse due to the huge deficit spending they can’t control, more specifically WILL NOT control!
“”we had to change the alloy mix proportions to maintain the value of the metal coin relative to the market value of the metal it was made of.”"
You’ve got that backwards… they HAD TO DEBASED the coins because they overspent their Tax Collections, and opted to just print fiat paper without a legitimate backing.
The market place responded and began exchanging the paper for real value… silver and gold coins. Again, government is held accountable by Free Market forces.
“”money is a promise to pay—a legal authority that facilitates trade, no more and no less.”"
That’s fine… “legal tender for debts private and public” but if you want to SAVE value over time… you don’t want to hold that paper or account denominated in that currency….because the Government is actively engaged in destroying your earned wealth, destroying your future plans to retire.
Thus people have no choice but to hold a commodity that retains its value relative to the massive printing schemes that ruin your plans.
“”Gold apparently was NOT that important or valuable to the Natives…”"
Even the savages had a great respect and appreciation for the metal….
It was actively mined and used as symbols of wealth.
“”gold suddenly would drop and next thing you know, gold prices are down too!”"
If gold were the only thing that were affected by the massive paper printing it might make sense….but the price inflation is across the board, sugar, cotton, soy beans, etc.
“”citizens somehow start thinking that gold is NOT that valuable…”
I matters little what “citizens” value, when they have no choice over the currency they use… they seek ways to hedge and CONSERVE their wealth when the paper and cyber distributions are made at your direct expense.
“”cold be a tactful way to drop the prices of gold for those who like to own it but can NOT at this point! “”
Whatever you CAN AFFORD is the relative value and purchasing power of your current “pocket paper”. You think you’re well off it you hold $5000 paper notes in your account… but just 40 years ago, you could by a 3 bedroom house for that! Now that’s not even a down payment!
“”All you have to do is start a successful propaganda against gold”"
“Propaganda” is the correct word, no truth to it but a political fabrication to decisive and mislead people into **believing** that thier “fiat paper” has value when truly does not!
Great Day TS
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Hey Citizen,
I am NOT against people owning gold and passing gold as money for goods and service they provide if that is their personal choice. I am against making gold the only money that people can take as legal tender. Say you live in California and you have certain clients you do business with, you may agree with them on the form of payment that you and them like to accept as money. If you both agree to pay each other in gold that is wonderful. I only ask that you never allow the FED to get a piece of it! Keep it circulating among you and expand the circle of your business partners. I love to see our citizens own the gold and circulating it around. My problem is allowing the banking industry to get a hold of our gold and lend it back to us at premium interest like they did with FIAT paper money and next thing you know, there is no gold left and there is no economy at all. I do support the theory of competing currencies, any form of money that the people locally see suitable. The more diversified the money, the better it is.
As for the mere conversion to gold, I know it will create a disaster during the conversion stage by itself because injustice would be done to those who have FIAT money but no gold. At this point in time, conversion is such a bad idea we will be better off with fixing what we have and keeping it. Just because we say NO to gold conversion at this time, it does NOT mean that we approve of the FED way abusing the FIAT money system. Again it looks like we disagree on what has caused the abuse. You say that it is the nature of the money being FIAT; we say it is the lack of accountability and good management. Politicians would use any kind of money to serve their political course and the argument that one form is less likely to foster the abuse is NOT too convincing because it is NOT the degree of damage that is relevant; it is rather the potential presence of any significant damage. As long as the government has the discretionary power to create (coin) money in the absence of accountability, we are simply screwed. Therefore, we have potentially two viable solutions:
1. We make money the business of every locality and allow the people in that locality to exercise preference over the choice of their money,
2. We fix our broken system and force our government eventually to redeem its FIAT money for precious metal upon demand. I do NOT see the redemption demand any different from buying gold directly from a gold dealer. Since the gold dealer is under no obligation to redeem the FIAT paper for a certain amount of gold over time, the government can use the same argument and decline to redeem the FIAT money for a fixed amount of gold! The government can use the “free market” argument and give you less gold for the FIAT money that desire to redeem. I do NOT see that the Constitutional duty to coin money as the equivalent of guaranteeing the value of that money in gold over time unless the government can also fix the price of gold. Especially for you as an advocate of “free market,” the government may NOT be disadvantaged by NOT allowing it to exercise flexibility under the doctrine of “free market.!”
For practicality and feasibility, I would choose option one as a gold enthusiast, but sorry I am NOT! I think the locality should have the freedom to use any money form it accepts as a form of money. I would go far to say that the money definition should be left to the two transacting parties. It should NOT be up to the Federal or State authorities to impose any particular of money over the citizens. On that note, I could be going against the Constitution without knowing it and Bob will be booing me soon ; I hope that I am NOT, but I do believe in total liberty of the people to define their contractual agreements as long as the stipulations does NOT harm any of the parties by its nature and as long as it does NOT constitute unjust enrichment according to other provisions of law.
Good night Citizen!
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TS
You say
“”My problem is allowing the banking industry to get a hold of our gold and lend it back to us at premium interest like they did with FIAT paper money and next thing you know, there is no gold left and there is no economy at all. “”
You’re preaching to the choir…
None of us here want to see another FED,
The solution is really simple…
TWO standards!
FIRST
Only the US Treasury should issue the US Currency, and that currency should be a common MATERIAL and well defined standard….
It’s already defined, 1792 Coinage Act…
But so many want a “non-standard”, a print what you need standard. But paper printing is 100 times more corruptible because it has no intrinsic value.
SECOND
Banking laws must require 100% reserves on demand deposits…. Savings / Loan deposits must be backed by deposits… no more un-backed notes. No fiat note printing by banksters, and no more government sponsored “central bank”
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p.s.
But the two primary reason ALL governments want total control,
Fiat Paper Money, permits easy “legal tender” rules with no cost to manage and permits general taxation rates….
AND
The ability to fabricate paper to pay their bogus debts out of thin air…
As long as the Fiat Paper Money Trolls INSIST on a “paper” standard, there will never be a Honest Money standard…
Paper Money and Honest Money
are mutually exclusive terms
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“The ability to fabricate paper to pay their bogus debts out of thin air…”
Citizen, that is a false statement, because the private corporation (the Fed) orders the government agency (the Treasury) to print the currency, that the Treasury just hands over to the Fed, which this private corporation (the Fed) LOANS to our federal government WITH INTEREST. So government isn’t paying anything, though the debt is bogus!
Why is this distinction so important?
Because the LEGAL TRUTH here can be fixed without ever involving a complicated change of form. End the fraud, which everyone should agree with. Gold is wealth, keep it as such, but gold is not money, that never worked and always led to fraud and barter by the peasants who go their whole lives without ever even touching a piece of gold.
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Snidely Whiplash,
BTW, I love your name, how creative!
It can NOT be fairer than that. The more I think about gold as money, the less it makes sense. Gold is gold; money is money. Leave it at that. As for money abuse, it must stop. The private FED must go. US treasury must take over and I care less after that if the money is is made of raccoon skin as long as it is regulated, monitored, and subject to citizen scrutiny. Again if that is NOT possible, then I need to abandon civil life and run to the woods to grow my own vegetables and raise my chicken.
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The private FED must go. US treasury must take over and I care less after that if the money is is made of raccoon skin as long as it is regulated, monitored, and subject to citizen scrutiny.”
Agreed, and I believe it is possible for it has been done before under the Franklin system. Look at how that fair system of money encouraged wide spread economic prosperity too. As you say, we must either work for ourselves and become self-sufficient (not practical) or we work for someone else to some extent, but that employer has to PAY their employee. So when there is not enough gold or silver around to employ everyone incapable of being self-sufficient, we end up in the barter economy, which always includes personal scripts (debt obligations) because there is neither gold nor something NEEDED to barter with. If all you have to trade is grain, and I have plenty of grain already, you need something else to trade for my horseshoes and other metal items that I the blacksmith make for a living!
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