Ron Paul Not a Freemason

243 Responses




Ron Paul is not, and never has been, a mason or freemason.


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243 responses to “Ron Paul Not a Freemason”

  1. deanlin

    This Does Not Prove Or Disprove Ron Paul A Freemason

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  2. TwitsdeGuerra

    It’s a pitty this goodman is not a btother. However I really like his proposals and his definition of freedom!

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  3. EnochArden

    The most important thing to me is to have a personal relationship with God. A true believer will be a shining example of Gods grace in the compassionate and charitable actions of that persons nature. Speaking about religious topics has done it to me again. Always becoming an ouroboros of defining and defending among the topics. It’s really not worth your/our time. I am guilty of this also, but I just realized AGAIN that anything involving religion and internet chat rooms is like a pointed circle. Too much assumed and too much missed in theoretical context for a real conversation. POINTLESS!!! …Gotta go, Satan wants to party!

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  4. Fritz Springmeir

    I am not masquerading. That is my name. I never said I was from the prophesy club or that I lecture. I Answer questions while I drive using voice recognition it and my phone sucks. Sorry for all the typos but it is what I can do to answer when I can. I am farmiliar with Fritz springmeiers work and have learned a lot from him I also liked the book behold a pale horse among other books. To be honest I put my whole name hoping that the other Fritz would get googled and someone could learn a thing or 2. I did use one of his videos and that could have been why u thought that. I am not Christian nor of any other denomination. If I go to a church I have a friend who was a Mason and is a judge and I go to his Methodist church for holidays I enjoy the people and the energy there. I prefer nature to a building cause if you can’t find God in a flower the eyes of a child or in a suffering human being you’ll never find him in a temple chapel or synanagogue. No offense taken. Go ron paul

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  5. EnochArden

    @RobertWeigel I don’t understand whats happening here. Obviously no one has a sense of humor, or is too narrow in comprehension… I am a Lucifer lover?! What?!? Sheez, you people are really out of touch and JUDGMENTAL. Always waiting for a scrap of meat to pulverize… You call me a troll as well? Why, because I am making conversation? …Also, every single person has demons and if you were to feel compassion for that person, I guess you would have to be compassionate to their subjective needs as a believer. I have not once assumed anything upon any of you. I allow open ended nomenclature, however “Don’t Judge” is EXACTLY what one is supposed to do as a Christian. That is NOT a reference out of context- It is Christianity by and large. There is one rule. God is Judge. The second most being there is One God. And for you to tell me otherwise is a fallacy. You are just like the rest of the self-righteous, always assuming a fight when there is only discussion, human beings. If it is not YOUR Chrstianity, it is not Christianity… No one on this site has any sense of wit. Only harsh self-truths to pontificate.

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  6. RobertWeigel

    @EnochArden Have compassion for demons? That makes…no sense but hey whatever.

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  7. RobertWeigel

    @EnochArden Just ticks me off…the internet has done so much to degrade the overall integrity of human beings. When someone says “Do not judge”…they make the FROSH mistake of RIPPING THAT verse out of context when it REALLY says ‘for by the same standard you judge, that you will be judged”But then in other verses like Matthew 7:24 it COMMANDS us to make RIGHT judgments! So what kind of person who is REALLY a bible scholar of *any* kind would just go around posting ‘don’t judge’ out of context?This guy has no relevant bible education if he makes that kind of error. And it saddens me that people claim to have doctorates and stuff when they MAKE that kind of error. Some people actually WORK for those degrees. So this person is functioning as a ‘troll’ in that they just post stuff like that which doesn’t match up with the stuff they are posting. I’m here at 727 N. 5th ave. in Bozeman, MT. My info’s all on my website. Anyone can verify who I am. These anonymous people who do this stuff…it’s like a mental illness. It really is…and it results indeed from spiritual illness.

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  8. Fritz Springmeir

    @Reggie. Thank u for The article. I have a copy of morals and dogma and it is a difficult read much of it is taken from aleister Crowley deeply rooted in the kabalah and Hebrew magical writtings. I read the article and it is deceptive at best. First I want to tell u I am not Christian though I try to he Christ like. So u are not dealing with a fundamentalist of any kind. I am a truth seeker and do believe in lower and higher energies. I have always considered Lucifer a lower energy. It is troubling to me that men meet in secret take oaths of blood and assume to be more enlightened than anyone
    tto me spirituality in its pure form is not elitest but seeks balance and synthesis as opposed to seperateness. So in essence it is this that troubles me. Albert Pike is revered in all of Freemasonry as I have friends.that are triads ( Asian lodge) and bnai brith ( Jewish lodge) it is also racist in Thank a black brother from a prince hall lodge would.not go to anwhite lodge. Albert Pike was involved with the kkk and That is a fact. I just want to know this do you believe that Masons are not luciferans? That is the key question? And if so show me a Masonic text that states this. They use the baphomet look it up it is on the cap of the 32 nd degree it has 2 symbolic manifestations one is a conglomerate of crosses. On white members it is vertical on black members at the 32 nd degree it is slanted. The other manifestation of the baphomet is a horned goat /man that was drawn by aleister Crowley . Locks into these things. I have not even mentioned manly p hall.whom also stated the luciferan doctrine in Freemasonry. We can go back and forth however the key question is IS FREEMASONRY AT THE TOP OF THE PYRAMID IN THE CAPSTONE LUCIFERAN? ill await the reply with the text citing it

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    1. Jay martin

      Morals and dogma were written way before Crowley. What are your research materials? Read the book,… if you can. I know hundreds of Masons and maybe 10 have actually read Morals and Dogma in its intirety. If you read it completely you will see that is an epic work of the study of all mythology and religions searching for that kernal of truth in all of them. By the way, Lucifer, means bearer of light. Jesus confirmed he was bearer of light when he said ‘ I am the light of the world…’ the mysteries are left for the adept, the rest is left for you in parables. You must seek the truth. Hope makes you seek. Blind Faith makes you a danger to mankind. Vivat!

      PM John M. Carden K.T., 32′

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  9. EnochArden

    You are just perpetuating nonsense… Kill it already. If you are not a Mason, don’t worry about what Masons do. Quoting people like Albert Pike and buying into the History Channel and Dan Brown shite. I promise Freemasons will not affect your life. My Grandfather was a Master Mason and very involved throughout many states with many charities and NON-Masonic organizations. He was a “higher-up” in the truest sense, and he was also one of the most gentle and honest men to exist and hid nothing to me about the symbolism used. Are you calling my G’pa a fuck!? … Kidding by the way, but everyone gets so into how much they know about the Masons when they are NOT a Mason…No one man is alike, therefore it’s true to say Masons can be one way or another just like the next man. Just like a Religion. Just like a job. Just like the whole fucking world! The crap you just fed everyone here is irrelevant to modern Masons. Do you know that Salvation Army bell ringers are harvesters of evil too?!? Meh…

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    1. RobertWeigel

      @EnochArden uh boy… never mind…

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  10. Fritz Springmeir

    @truth4real Thank u this is what I have been trying to point out. I am on a phone and long detailed answers are difficult. Bravo and qudos to u

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  11. Fritz Springmeir

    @truthbereal Thank u…..this is what I have been trying to point out. I am on

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  12. RobertWeigel

    There is no ignorance in the FACT that the organization has people take oaths of secrecy.IF there is no agenda, there is no need for oaths of secrecy. There’s your valid point. HISTORY gives us another ‘valid point’. Heads of ANYTHING tend to go towards corruption. Look at the actions of all people in history who had ultimate power save the kings of Israel who had a heart after God. They were positioned in a place that would draw them that direction though. While the odds of a good king there weren’t GOOD still… we see a VASTLY worse situation in dictatorships where they weren’t surrounded by an overt framework that would lead them to do what was right.Now…we’re talking about a group with secret oaths again. lol. Generally GOOD things don’t NEED to be done in secrecy. (And in fact the good freemasons do is NOT DONE IN SECRECY so don’t even go DOWN *that* lame path…. :-) )Anyway there are a couple ‘valid points’ for ya.

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  13. Fritz Springmeir

    @kotel4 http://www.christian-restoration.com/fmasonry/miscellaneous.htm @kotel4 you obviously did not look at the link provided where there are actually scanned pages from morals and dogma
    morals and dogma is given to the higher degrees
    as a Traveling man or initiate or friend of hiram or whatever other secret term you may want touse to describe yourself if you are a feeemason. you are obviously at the bottom of the pyramid
    probably blue lodge member. you will never read morals and dogma from where you are. I have only used Albert pikes 33 degree freemason and demigod to freemasons own words. being prejudice is making a decision before having enough data to base a decision. after you read morals and dogma get back to me on your view of freemasonry not being luciferan

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    1. MattWatts

      @Fritz Springmeir@kotel4 Morals and Dogma can be bought at any scottish rite temple and can be read at most local libraries. It is nothing special. I came to the conclusion that Albert Pike was a well read man. There is nothing in the book that would go against Christianity.

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      1. Fritz Springmeir

        @MattWatts to start I never said that morals and dogma was hard to find. I states it was given to the master Mason in the blue lodge until the late seventies and from hen on only given at the thirty scond. Degree. IWilliam Blythe as he was born later changed his name to. Clinton from a marriage his mom had. He is a demolay as it is a lifetime membership. If you knew simething about jaques demolay amdthe the whether or not he admits it he is a

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      2. Fritz Springmeir

        @MattWatts sorry answering from a phone. Ughhh as I was saying Jacques demolay was a knights Templar and ended up being burned at the stake. It is said rthat the templars took refuge within Freemasonry. If you study Cecil Rhodes also a Freemason since eighteen seventy seven. He amassed a great fortune and dreamed of English Masonic imperial dominance though St same time was critical of French Freemasonry. Hebert up 3 wills. And left a Rothschild ( yes from the same Rothschild that set up the federal reserve on jeckle island with the other families ) in his will he set up the Rhodes scholarship to Oxford. It was set up to propogate Freemasonry in the framework of education for the advancement of.the British empire. Bill was a Rhodes scholar as well. It was Cecil Rhodes money that created the cfr another elite group setting up world agendas. Bill belongs to that as well as the trilateral commission and he has attended the globalist agenda bilderbergs. If its true is it a theory? Whether or not he has declared himself a Freemason he is. He is a phony as his wife Hillary who is an eastern star and is a marrano (a Jewish person who passes themself off as Christian) she is a Rosenberg as is Palin who talks.about Christian values and marries all her kids off in Jewish ceremonies as she comes from an Argentine Jewish legacy. As far as morals and dogma not being anti Christian. I am not a Christian though I try to he Christlike. I do believe luciferbto be a lower energy and do not subscribe to decieving. The light beeping sought.by the initiate s Lucifer. If you open your copy of morals and digma to page 321
        It clearly states he is the light bearer. What part of Christianity does that support. Study aleister Crowley a Freemason and world famous black magician tell me he and his baphomet were Christlike in any way. Ifbyou are a Mason you no longer have your eyes closed you are in it eyes wide open. Wish u the best.

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    2. Jay martin

      That is the supidest thing I have ever heard. Morals and Dogma is given at the end of the 14th in the Scottish Rite and has been since it was written. The 14th is the beginning of the Christian degrees of the Scottish Rite 14th through 18th. This country, and probably the city you live in, was founded by men of the Masonic fraternity, and now it is inhabited by people like you who believe in reptilian aliens, and satan worshippers, and illuminati. Idiot! The real enemy is yourself… the greatest jihad! Just to add fuel to your fire.

      K.T., 32′

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  14. Fritz Springmeir

    @Reggie I understand your points. http://crossbearer-brian.tripod.com/id288.htm
    this article has scanned pages from the book morals and dogma by Albert Pike a demigod in in Freemasonry. Freemasonry is a luciferan religion that decieves those at the bottom ofnthe pyramid. Below 32nd degree
    Study manly p hall and aleister Crowley ( perhaps the worlds greatest black magician) and by the way Albert pikes remains.are buried in Tue Washington DC 33 rd degree Masonic temple. Al of the above came after our founding father’s so I don’t know if Freemasonry may have taken a wrong turn in the 1800s . I feel it has always been luciferan though. Study and you will see. By the way you and I non Masons are considered profane to them.

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  15. EnochArden

    If the world is going to end in 2012 and the Masons somehow have secret knowledge of this. Don’t you think, Freemasons would start hanging out with their family more. Do a little more fishing and not pay their dues because soon money would be obsolete anyway? C’mon people!!! Citing crazy books like “Apollyon Rising” which no historian or scientist is going to seriously endorse, and youtube videos made by people who are angry they were never included in a group just lauds the ignorant. Some questions and examples to all the people on here against Freemasonry- You ever vote? Have you ever gone to a fundamentalist church? Have you ever given to a charity? These are all things that are uncertain to you in regards to how your time with them is constructively used for good. Your vote goes to an electoral college. Your pastor has the biggest house and nicer car than you(God willed it, right?,) and your charity dollars maybe funneled to a dozen other things before it does any good… The point is, everyone participates in things that are elusive every day. If you find yourself more involved with one aspect of society more than another, it’s quite NORMAL. It’s not a conspiracy to want to belong to a group. It’s called human nature. Throughout history bored, uninformed people gravitate to an idea and attack it because its foreign. And instead of personally learning about it by human interaction with its source, propaganda is made and a collective conscious is born out of illogical emotions… Lodge doors are always open to the public.

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    1. KarenBoothTaylor

      @EnochArden YOu have shown your ignorance in one statement alone! “” Your pastor has the biggest house and nicer car than you(God willed it, right?,”" First of all, my husband IS a pastor. We have NEVER made more than $25,000 a year, drove cars til they were ready to fall apart, never wore designer clothes unless they were hand me downs, never lived in a big new home. We are now retired living in a repo $40,000 home, and struggling to make ends meet. NOT ALL PASTORS are rich! MOST are living on menial income. Stop watching the TV preachers..that’s not real life! I have given to charity. I have been in an evangelical church all my life. The charities I give to are through my church and 90% goes TO THAT group.. 10% in the processing of the funds.

      I will stand by the Book Apollyon Rising because Tom HORN has done his research. I do not care what Masons say. I visited one of their “temples” on a tour. We asked them questions..rote answers, evasive answers are what we got. I saw all the pagan symbolism for myself.

      The Freemasons do have an agenda, the little guy in it has NO idea. Believe what you want…that is your right. Before Horn’s book I was aware of it. My church even takes a stand against any secret organizations for good reason.

      Do you also not believe Bernacke and his “world bankers” are trying to break the world economy? Or the Bilderburgs role in ushering in the NWO? Sorry Enoch, but the Bible has told of all these things coming to be toward the end… and as I read the headlines and the Bible they go hand in hand.

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      1. EnochArden

        @KarenBoothTaylor Evangelical beliefs are poison(IMHO)…Otherwise, I did not mean to be insulting. I am no Atheist and wish the best for your family. Only a fool would lump all religion into one superficial category. I think most people would understand that particular sentence was in jest. Lighten up. Fundamentalism is wrong. If you really understand the Bible, then you would appreciate it enough to have a historical look on it. I don’t wish to fight. I am not an internet troll or self righteous person. I was simply stating what I believe based on my experience. God Bless.

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        1. EnochArden

          @KarenBoothTaylor I want to reiterate that I am a Christian. Maybe not in the traditional sense, but I am. And If you took my comments as a personal attack, then please understand that I only speak from experience. I want peace. I want charity and compassion. I wish no person ill-will. However, you can never convince me that fundamentalism is holy. If that was the case than women would still be kicked out of their home when they were ovulating without child and we would still be sacrificing animals on alters. I am NOT saying you are wrong. I am just saying, as a Theology major and Doctor of Naturalism, the Bible is not correct in it’s morals as a whole. I believe in the message of Jesus only. Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. The rest is political, fear-mongering, traditionalist, nonsense. It’s widely believed by historians now that the whole concept of Christianity arose from the ashes of Zoroastrianism. The book you mention simply has no merit. It is false. To give it heed is to play into the trappings of an outsider struggling to look in. Think about this. If there were no Christianity, there would be no baphomet, or pentagram. One begets the other. it is not Satanic to acknowledge something unholy. It is Satanic to put value into it…. God Bless.

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        2. RobertWeigel

          @EnochArden@KarenBoothTaylor What are you defining as ‘fundamentalism?Relativism is holy? Relativism is where there are no absolutes and each one does whatever they see right in their own eyes.What is Holy is to humble one’s self before a Holy God and to thank him for his gift to them. And to begin a journey of getting to know him. Whenever they step off that path they will do unholy things still. And he will discipline those he loves and call them to make right whatever they have done to others. It’s because i’ve humbled myself before God that I endure having no wife. I stood up for what was right NOT for what I would have wanted. I look back and see I had no personal agenda for doing what was truthful and thoughtful of others..but which I knew would probably cause the woman to be overchallenged and she’d dump me… over and over this happened over the years. It’s a crummy world. And if you follow Jesus he said people will hate you in general. Expect nothing less. Because most are writing their own playbook ast hey go. Anyway to me ‘fundamentalism’ is following the fundamentals :-)> I can’t depart from the fundamentals if they are truth. The truth much be discerned by each person and they will be responsible before God for whether or not they chose to do that.

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        3. EnochArden

          @RobertWeigel@KarenBoothTaylor To me, fundamentalism is a literal interpretation of the Bible disregarding historical and scientific logic regarding absolute divinity. Let it be said that just because I disagree with you, or anyone else I converse with for that matter, that it doesn’t automatically mean that I am being dismissive or that I think relativism is holy. These things are not at all my philosophy.

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        4. RobertWeigel

          @EnochArden@KarenBoothTaylor I see no contradiction in scientific logic and the claims of the bible. I’ve been on the usenet/internet 25 years and have challenged people since the beginning to bring ANY alleged contradiction there. So far all people have brought are out of context speculations etc.FOR THE RECORD though, I wouldn’t know that the bible is trustworthy without the witness of the spirit. I *grew up* in a group that misrepresented various things FROM the bible but called themselves fundamentalist I do believe. As do most groups who..disagree with one another :-)I prayed and read the bible through from cover to cover while continually praying. I soon was finding myself butting heads with people who couldn’t reason and instead they just alienated me.I believe the few that will really look at the bible in that way will find in that fellowship with God’s spirit a clear interpretation of what is going on there. THE LITERAL GRAMMAR finally jumps out and it makes sense! ANd you see ‘wow…every part of it is actually cohesive! ‘ NOW..if humans had altered it that wouldn’t be the case since a good part of it was established BC. And..I might add…was counter motivational. It made the people who brought it forth look like spiritual buffoons. They would run from God overall when he tried to draw near, etc.Anyway try it. It really changes everything. Most people calling themselves ‘fundamentalist’ hate me. But I love the truth. I will logically rip them apart usually because they are teaching things that are in contradiction with their own text. (eg. the framework of the tithe..the framework of church leadership etc. etc.)

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        5. KarenBoothTaylor

          @EnochArden “”If that was the case than women would still be kicked out of their home when they were ovulating without child and we would still be sacrificing animals on alters. “” Enoch.. if you have read the Bible as a WHOLE..you would know your statement here holds no water. Jesus came to do away with the sacrifice of animals..HE became the sacrifice for our sin. He also put women into a higher position and with respect. Some of his early followers were women who started their own “churches” (lydia, for ex). YOu cannot take part of the Bible and not all of it. It is one continuous message of creation of perfection, the fall of man, God’s provision and promise, the Fullfillment of that promise (Jesus), how to live a Godly life as Jesus showed us, and the end of evil in the world and God’s eternal promise to those who love Him. You cannot throw away part of it because then there is no reason for Jesus coming.

          What has the pentagram or anything like that have to do with Christianity?? anything with a pagan reference comes from SAtan to deceive and destroy. He always takes what is good and twists it for his evil purposes. I will not go into a discussion of Christmas and EAster and all the other nonsense so many try to argue. I celebrate those seasons because I believe in Christ and love Him and what I do have nothing in my mind to do with any pagan ideas. It’s okay to paint your face, put on stupid hats and scream like a banshee at a pigskin being tossed on a field..but NOT okay to put up a tree with the Lights (the Light of the world is Jesus) or a wreath (eternity) to celebrate the GREATEST LIFE ever lived who gives us HOPE! I will celebrate it with Christian ideals and the pagans can believe what they want..they worship Satan anyway..and he’s a liar!

          Also.. the pagan world was in existence long before Jesus, because God was the God of Israel. the other nations worshipped satan and his minions. When Jesus came, he came for the Jews first (who rejected him) and then the Gentiles because God loved all mankind. The argument pagans use that their religion is older than Christianity is true.. it was..Zeus, Apollo, all of them were SAtanic though. It took Jesus to come to show a better way.

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        6. KarenBoothTaylor

          @EnochArden@RobertWeigel

          You might do well also to check out http://stevequayle.com/ and his section on Giants too. 30 years of research from all over the world. Giants are in the Bible (Goliath) and were all over the world. who were they? Interesting things. Not everything is word for word in the Bible, science has proven much, given explanations for much but God also has given the reason WHY and WHO! That is what is so great!

          I listened to a round table online with several christian men about some things that are going on in the world now and how it relates to the Bible. If you want to listen to it here is the link:

          http://standeyo.com/Podcast/111212.Deyo.Marzulli.Skiba.Fortson.mp3

          as far as Fundamentalism.. I do think there is a place for Science in my life..the Bible is Full of science and of course History. I am one who Believes the Bible is true in what it says and that it has the plan for mankind. I am not one whose mind is closed to reason, but I will not accept the lies from Satan that the Bible is pagan and full of contradictions. Why? Because those are lies from Satan, and the Bible says he is the father of lies!

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        7. RobertWeigel

          @KarenBoothTaylor@EnochArden Steve Quayle is a local. I’ve met him. Didn’t seem like he wanted to talk to me much. LOL. Not surprising. He is *another* guy who founds his ‘work’ on unbased speculations. Total waste of time. The giants were the result of ‘sons of God’ (who could be angels..OR people who were following God as per Psalm 82…but if you look at matthew 19…. then you see that we will be as the angels..neither married nor given in marriage)…Anyway I’ve written a lot of detail on this biblically. The nephilim re-emerged after the flood again for the same reason. People perverting the intent God had that there be his spirit working in relations…. when people depart from his covering they open themselves up to possible mutations etc. obviously. We were fearfully and wonderfully made and require continual interaction with our creator.

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        8. RobertWeigel

          @KarenBoothTaylor@EnochArden Steve Quayle is a local. I’ve met him. Didn’t seem like he wanted to talk to me much. LOL. Not surprising. He is *another* guy who founds his ‘work’ on unbased speculations. Total waste of time. The giants were the result of ‘sons of God’ (who could be angels..OR people who were following God as per Psalm 82…but if you look at matthew 19…. then you see that we will be as the angels..neither married nor given in marriage)…Anyway I’ve written a lot of detail on this biblically. The nephilim re-emerged after the flood again for the same reason. People perverting the intent God had that there be his spirit working in relations…. when people depart from his covering they open themselves up to possible mutations etc. obviously. We were fearfully and wonderfully made and require continual interaction with our creator.

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        9. KarenBoothTaylor

          @RobertWeigel The idea that the angels never marry or aren’t given in marriage was IN Heaven..but when they fell they have broken every law of God! It was not that they couldn’t have sex, in heaven it was not necessary..on earth it could be a very different thing! If the spirit of God could impregnate Mary, do you not think that the fallen angels could do the same. After all, demons have had sex with human women. In fact there are modern day women in the music business who have stated they desire to have sex with demons (aliens). Sorry.. but if anyone does not agree with you they are jumping to conclusions? His book Angel Wars is very informative and BACKED up with page after page of references. HOw can you deny the bones of giants that are found and photographed(before computors and photoshop). He has a letter from a military pilot who helped just a while back remove a giant body from Afghan ( I think it was) that they killed..after it killed several soldiers and ate them. This is exactly what the Nephelim did. Sorry..but I believe their work is valid..and backed by evidence. You can believe what you will..that’s your right.

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        10. RobertWeigel

          @KarenBoothTaylor You don’t know that. Sheer speculation. God created Angels a whole different order. It’s thus logical to think a COW is more likely to be able to produce offspring with us. I see no foundation that spiritual beings can have sex with humans. This in itself is typical of mormon theology. Anyway not interested in arguing speculations. thanks. I’m busy.

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        11. EnochArden

          @KarenBoothTaylor Miss Taylor, I am a Theology professor, so it’s kind of my job to read the Bible(and various other religious texts) as a WHOLE… Were you not so eager to counterpoint me with your Jesus talk. I know the teachings of Christ. The point I was making was clear. It is that the majority of Christians pick and choose what to believe from the Bible. It took quite sometime after the death of Christ before even gentiles stopped adopting the rights of cleanliness of the old… I don’t need informed on what the Bible says, I read it too… Some examples of picking and choosing being Most people teach their children that Noah took two of every animal on his ark. Well, most Bibles say he took seven pairs of ritually clean animals and two pairs of ritually unclean animals. Like, fourteen elephants to every two spiders and so on… Most Bibles say that although Adam and Eve were the first two created by God in Eden, once they were expelled, they had to live among the wild people of the planet. So, first two perfect people in Eden, not the first people however… Have you ever read about the Council of Nicea? And I’m not talking Wikipedia references- When the first council(of the two major Nicean councils) went down, much of what was in the Bible was taken out, edited, and dates were given to celebrations… Basically, the Bible you read today is a version distorted by the church. One must consider also, that we now revolve around a calender based on farming. Day light savings, leap years and the like. So when some nutjob says he has proof of the world ending on a certain day, they are surely blowing smoke because it’s incalculable to know for sure when Biblical events took place or will take place… Also, you should read on Zoroastrianism as it was basically the frame for the New Testament and it’s widely believed that the wise men were Mazdaist(Zoroastrian.) Point being, Jesus himself had a good chance of being anointed by magicians of a pagan religion… These small little tweaks in history and gaffes in current storytelling probably don’t mean much, but if one is to take the Bible as a “WHOLE,” then maybe they do… And the baphomet, pentagram, hex marks, etc. are only evil to Christians because Christians are the only ones who give them power. Satan does not give them power. Christians and Pagans alike do when they use them as examples of evil. All alone, sitting by themselves, they are just a drawing. Is a picture of a crucifix holy? …Nope.

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        12. EnochArden

          @KarenBoothTaylor Just in your opinion I have a question for you Miss Taylor. If the only way into Heaven is through Him, where does that leave the people who have never heard of Jesus? Someone on an island that has no Mission for example? Is that person going to hell?

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        13. RobertWeigel

          @EnochArden@KarenBoothTaylor I’ve been reasoning with people in the scriptures since long before I began doing it on the internet in 1986 (or usenet as some called it then. Though we had quite an interesting cross section of people with the .gov, .mil and .edu people at the time.) Speaking hours a day average with people probably. We’ve covered every issue multiple times and I FULLY AGREE that most read the bible out of context. However…a lot of others get slants on that context and *if* we remember that the narrow way is..narrow and *FEW* (Biblically..scant few if you believe much of the history :-)…which..I do …believe the history…) then we would not EXPECT ohhhhh…sayyyyy. major well funded theological seminaries…. orrrr….church denominations that own them often… to be completely founded in the scriptures…if the scriptures are true in that.Jesus taught that ALL men will hate us if we truly follow him. How hated are you if you are acclaimed as an authority on the scriptures my mass numbers of people?hmmm…not..near as hated as me. That’s for sure. hehe.Anyway that’s why arguments from authority don’t fly PARTICULARLY in biblical discussions. God will use those perceived as foolish by the masses to humble the wise often.The Counsel of Nicea didn’t ‘distort’ anything. RATHER they chose which books seemed to have the rigorous authentication tests. (ie. a well established trail of history as to their sourcing, a consistency with other established books etc.)For example Enoch while sharing even something in Jude, has some very VERY questionable statements in it that depart from the patterns of the other books AND IT’S SOURCING IS COMPLETELY in limbo.THerefore…no Enoch, no childhood gospel of THomas, etc. That one being a flagrantly obvious gnostic fabrication I believe but whatever. The excerpts are totally out of character of the Yeshua the 4 cohesive gospels, acts, and the epistles speak of not to mention the prophesies! Seriously..what do they show you guys to get your diploma. Zeitgeist? Gimme a break. There is no substantiation that they did this NOR WOULD IT HAVE FLOWN! It would have sent UNMASKABLE rifts through history.

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        14. RobertWeigel

          @EnochArden@KarenBoothTaylor continuing…Think about it. HOW did this counsel *exist*? Because the teachings OF the Old Testament, the gospels, and acts and various epistles were already MASSIVELY POPULAR. So ..had the counsel just gone in and said ‘hmmm..we dont’ like this part that you fools thought was ‘holy’…nor this…chop chop..there we go.. there’s your new bible! Like it or die! Well a lot of people would have died. And they would have left a lot of evidence in their own writings that would have emerged to yet ANOTHER new generation of truth seekers. People like myself have a way of getting together with others who love the truth. We share it with one another and make sure it is passed on. FURTHERMORE THOUGH (and this is the real *sinker* to such theories)… all this stuff happened long before modern archeology and scientific methods/knowledge. And ohhh what TROUBLE that is for people who try to say ‘ohhh the bible is just a bunch of random choppings..you need ME to tell you the truth! ‘…. Because the raw ODDS of nothing to have been scientifically DISproven for instance by now…is just hyper-astronomical…were any of this the work of fabricators. Fabricators in ancient times always get exposed. Because they tend to spin tales that have..of course..no substantiation but which people can’t DISprove at the time. Take mormonism for example. When JS claimed that Hebrew people and POlynesians were related genetically..he never dreamed that some day they would have a method of proving that this is not the case :-) Busted.

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        15. RobertWeigel

          @EnochArden@KarenBoothTaylor But in the case of the books of the bible they are QUITE robust and I’ve challenged people all the 25 years I’ve been doing this on the usenet to post ANY SINGLE (ie. not 40 half-ass ones… just ONE ROBUST one..please…) irrefutable flaw that isn’t just an observational variation that is understandable from well meaning witnesses. (eg. the famous example of 2 angels at the tomb vs. one in another gospel. Well perhaps one of the authors had the angel right in his face and was so struck that he never saw the two angels that the more distant observer saw. He just spoke of what the one angel did. He didn’t say “I looked everywhere and there was only one angel”> Not to mention angels apparently can expose themselves to whoever they want… as with the army that was hidden from the servant of Elisha til he prayed that his eyes be opened…) Anyway so what this REALLY serves to do is PROVE that no fabricator went through and ‘tidy’d up the scriptures’. If they had they would have removed that because MANY of the people they are trying to fool are STUPID and would perceive this AS a contradiction. But then..they of course would have stripped out Jesus saying not to save up for tomorrow etc. also. Governments DEPEND on people doing that so they can go ‘clean house’ every now and then ;-). And of course all the Old Testament is equally amazing but much more well substantiated yet in a way. Archeology has done amazing favors for those who wish to share the credibility of the Old Testament books. Even the most outlandish sounding stories now have vast amounts of evidence to back them.

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        16. KarenBoothTaylor

          @EnochArden@KarenBoothTaylor a Theology Professor… in what religion? In a secular college I’m sure too. That is the problem with so many ministers now..they deny the diety of Christ, the virgin birth etc..probably because of professors like you who don’t believe it either. YES..JEsus IS the ONLY way to Heaven, not Buddha, or gaia.. or anyone else. Today with technology everyone has the opportunity to learn about Jesus, if not that is the job of missionaries to do so. God will be their judge not me! How he handles the situation is HIS to worry about.It is my job to support those who take the message to others, since I am not called to do so. That is the difference between us… I believe the bible and you don’t. You really should teach something else and leave Bible theology to those who believe it. Someone in a pulpit preaching about God who doesn’t believe is nothing more than a hypocrite and liar and should choose another profession. I have NOTHING more to say on the subject because I believe in Jesus Christ and his purpose, and you don’t. I will not listen to anything from someone who teaches doctrines of the devil.

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        17. EnochArden

          @KarenBoothTaylor Miss Taylor, your argument is ignorant. You don’t have to say another word on the subject, but your failure to see the open ended nature of my dialogue, rather focusing on an inept caliber of non-related topics. But I will be damned if someone tells me I am NOT a believer. ~”That is the difference between us… I believe the bible and you don’t.” <– That is what you said. In your post… You accuse me of teaching in a secular college without knowing a thing about me… Hmmm, Christian?… You are SUPPOSED to believe in non-judgement, yet you claim I am not a believer more than once in your argument… ~"Someone in a pulpit preaching about God who doesn't believe is nothing more than a hypocrite and liar and should choose another profession."<— That is also what you said. Please take a second and really read what you just wrote to a complete stranger. You assume that my chosen profession is a shill for ignorance and I am a sybarite of some kind. I am only trying to have conversation, not make a square into a circle… You are disproving yourself. It's people like you who make me sick to call myself a Christian. But am I a Christian? You should tell me since you are apparently the authority.

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        18. RobertWeigel

          @EnochArden@KarenBoothTaylor Demons believe. I’m not saying you aren’t a believer. I’m just saying your take on the history of the bible and thus your doctrine is screwed up. I believe NOT in ‘non-judgment’ for the spiritual man it says judges ALL things. Of course if you knew the bible you’d know that. You’d also know Jesus commanded to make RIGHT judgements and not to judge by appearances. Ever read even Matthew? Dont’ call yourself a Christian. You aren’t following Christ obviously. You don’t even believe the multiple accounts that logically correlate to the OT prophets and have no contradiction with each other OR modern scientific knowledge or anything else. All things in the bible that are labelled as spiritually sourced are what they are. But all things physically sourced completely fall into line with the laws of physics. And archeological finds way over the top of what we’d expect to find.You cant’ deal with this so live in your MYTH that it was all just adjusted by a bunch of people way back there.

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        19. EnochArden

          @RobertWeigel@KarenBoothTaylor If you are talking to me sir, you are assuming way too much and fabricating your faith. My “doctrine” is screwed up?!? Huh? ~”You aren’t following Christ obviously.”<– Huh? Is that Christian, or is that YOUR Christian? Either way, who are you to say?… Mr. Weigel , you were actually only one of few people on here intelligent enough to converse with, but assuming the faith of another is about the most un-faithful thing one can do so you just lost some points.

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        20. RobertWeigel

          @EnochArden@KarenBoothTaylor I’m assmuing nothing but what you told me. You told me you thought the bible was re-fabricated by people. Hence you are one of these people who just believes whatever they want it sounds like. Enoch… I tried to reason about that …maybe you replied but i didn’t see it. This isn’t the best forum because it’s another stupid facebook-esque ‘wall spew’. I hate the lack of organization on these types of things. I miss too many things. If you did reply to that send me a note or call me on the phone or something where smart people realize communication happens about 40X more efficiently. I have too many things to do to retype things over and over which usually is what happens in these types of environments because of..the poor organization of a ‘wall spew’ type thing.

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      2. Jay martin

        Ever celebrate Easter? Paint eggs and hide them? Have a tree for Christmas? Light candles for advent? Baptize? Say bless you when someone sneezes? Wear a ring on your finger to signify marriage? Go to church on Sunday? Have a wreath on your door? Celebrate the Christ’s birth in December? Then you are using Pagan rituals! Love one another and stop all this mental violence!

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  16. RobertWeigel

    You can’t be seroius. I mean your name says “i’m not serious” i realize. lol HE WAS REACHING..STRETCHING over a table such that his arm was sideways. HOT NEWS FLASH. No freemason would do secret handshakes on a national show. It’s just ignorant to even think this would happen. Look at him stretching ..barely able to reach the guy… it was an awkward reach and thus a different looking handshake than normal. People are seriously having to REALLY STRETCH (like ron did there..lol) to find something wrong with this.

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  17. EnochArden

    I am speaking in regards of my local Lodges. Personal acquaintances and Mason family members. I am not a Mason. It is a part of my life though, and in my experience, Masons do not recruit… The Freemasons, being an open ballot community all over the U.S. and Europe will have different methods of ‘deception’. Obviously, Freemasons are like any other big-scale organization in that it has to advertise somewhat and one can be a crook, a liar, or a Mason. However, a successful Lodge in a community has a big impact. In no way am I defending Masons, promoting them, or claiming to know it all. Just my experience.

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  18. Robert Weigel

    @Mattwatts- I got a reply to you from someone in my email..but I can’t find it in here for some reason. These forums may need better organization (like.. back in the day when we had threaded news reader. ooowwaa. Facebook is the same way. THey just ramble everyone’s post all in a big linear blop. It’s like everyone forgot how to think or something. Who is doing the s/w for all these things these days? F/b used to work and they destroyed it. Oh well.

    Anyway LET ME JUST SAY Matt… that (if you saw his post) this is true I believe about Albert Pike. But it’s not that freemasonry was necessarily founded to be *that*. It’s just that with this kind of humanistic conception, those are the kinds of manifestations you’ll see always. It’s hard to explain without going to elaborate details but..just that human beings tend to be insecure down deep. And in searching for that security they will try to set up some least common denominator thing that works to provide them some sense of security. Conspiring in secret with your buddies about things has a real appeal. Being sworn to secrecy and all that.

    And now what you have is basically a religion of sorts. You all follow the rules OR ELSe! lol. So since the one who started this ‘religion’ of eating of the tree of the knowledge of what is good/evil for ourselves…. is Lucifer… naturally there he is waiting at the end with his hand extended. So that’s why people that get immersed into this kind of thing don’t usually trend towards becoming Christians as a result of their involvement but rather…quite the opposite.

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  19. EnochArden

    Freemasonry is a respectable, charitable organization. Those who discredit it are usually ones who simply refuse to take time to visit a lodge and learn if its appropriate for their lifestyle. Doors are always open to non masons. Masons do not recruit as a respect to free-minded individuals who wish to discover on their own. The Masons respect history and culture which is why symbols that may seem esoteric are used. Religion is not a factor. Political views are not a factor. It is unfortunate that an organization practicing good will, which further strengthens community ties is clouded in the internet rants of the uninformed… And I am voting for Ron Paul. Not as a Freemason, but as a tax-paying, voting, individual.

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    1. RobertWeigel

      @EnochArden There are secret oaths. That’s always troubling. People at the lower levels indeed are affiliated in something that appears to be charitable fun fellowship etc. However the whole INTENT of it was that it be like the rudder in a ship. That through this ‘order’ which has a hierarchy of leaders…. is that those at the top be able t steer a culture through it. That’s why it was developed *with* a hierarchy…oaths of secrecy etc. How do you think that all started? It started with the conception of a bunch of guys meeting at places like the “Hellfire club” apparently. Teachings of Francis Bacon etc. woven into a plan that would allow the elite to control people without them knowing who to go to with the swords and torches and pitchforks. I was invited to demo-lay or whatever it is as a kid. I asked what it was and the kid wouldn’t tell me so i didn’t go. But everyone was invited. So not sure what you mean they don’t ‘recruit…? THey try to get people socially involved and then escalate the involvement like any group that wants to succeed in whatever they are trying to do. To say they aren’t ‘religious’ …well they aren’t affiliated with particular denominations. However wherever you go in their dwelling places you’ll see symbology that is all about humans being their own answer to things so… it’s technically a humanistic slant in all cases I’ve seen.you know what they say about a void? :-) And certainly that ‘religion’ gets effectively pushed to the membership. The belief that man is his own answer to his own problems etc. Problem is People’s hearts are deceitful. YET they need social interaction and a feeling of stability and affirmation. This humanistic environment provides that for people. Yet their hearts are ..still self-centered at the core. Regardless how they try to make themselves look good..until some actual CHANGE in that motivation they learned while being a child who could only think of themself .. WHen did it change? I do a song like that. First song I wrote. So I guess it’s an important theme to me :-)

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      1. EnochArden

        @RobertWeigel I think you are looking too much into the past of Freemasonry. Each Lodge is different. There is no set of standards other than the usual rituals. I see your points, but I guess you are looking at Freemasons on a broader scope than I am. I am speaking about the local Lodges that I have grown up around. I am not a Mason. I do have Mason family members and friends so it is a close part of my life… If you look at the symbols all the time, you can actually make yourself believe that it’s somehow a cult I guess. It’s just another group like the Knights of Columbus, Owls, or even FOP. It’s not for everyone. You get from it, what you put into it.

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        1. RobertWeigel

          @EnochArden Hierarchies of large organizations rarely changes with time in terms of their fundamental purpose..simply because those at the top make sure to carefully groom people into taking their place who hold the same values. So I think the past has a lot of relevance. In that it’s got ‘levels’ of involvement. The fearful thing of a secretive organization that does this, is that as you get higher and higher people are more and more socially vested. And thus those at the top can more and more begin to condition you to do the things they want.

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        2. EnochArden

          @RobertWeigel Way to state the obvious. People are conditioned at their very careers every day so being “conditioned” is not always a bad thing. And because its up to an individual to put in whatever level of involvement they want, each Mason will get a different result from a Lodge. I don’t see why this is “scary”. If a person is foolish enough to be controlled, they deserve whatever negative effects that incur. My uncle was a Master Mason and I can guarantee you he did not control anyone, nor was he controlled by anyone. Freemasons practice subjective free-thinking, not dynamic mind control… Maybe not so much History Channel, m’kay.

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        3. RobertWeigel

          @EnochArden Conditioned is a bad thing when there is an agenda overseeing it that interacts with what SHOULD be the private lives of others.For example… if some change monger happens to be at the top of such an organization that has..ahem..one use from the top’s perspective anyway usually **, then the obvious types of things they are going to be involved in would be making investments and shifting things towards favoring that move. Or visa versa.For instance let’s think of a classic example that’s easy to explain (though not particularly associated with freemason activities that I know..I mean it wouldn’t surprise me but I’m just offering this as an example of how change mongering works in general.) THE CATALYTIC CONVERTER. Of course some guy discovers the effect using metals that are fairly useless otherwise. A PROBLEM exists at the time that actually creates some WORSE forms of pollution using them (H2S and SO3!! from what are otherwise fairly harmless in low concentrations)Now..this whole *issue* is simply swept out of the way by feeding the environmental movement bad information so that they think it’s a wonderful thing all the way around. And they lobby of insistence that all vehicles have one.MEANWHILE..back at the Ranch……….. people who are working for this ‘great cause’ had simultaneously..of course… bough large interest in the previously worthless mines that produce a lot of the Pollonium/Palladium and what all. Since they could purchase it very cheaply. Well..people should be rewarded after all for this great thing they are doing right? No when stuff like that is revealed the people should lose their post and go to jail. Period. Each public servant should be dedicated to absolutely no trading/purchasing that is remotely linked to anything they have option to vote for etc. Otherwise we have inevitable conflict of interest corruption.Anyway that’s mankind. And naturally an organization of the nature freemasonry is, winds up a functionally dedicated element for that sort of thing. Evil people are simply BETTER at weaseling their way into high positions. They don’t mind for instance knocking off a nice guy who is above them. Because they are evil! lol. SO naturally an organization like this is destined to fall into that kind of corruption if it wasn’t there from the onset.**…. HOT NEWS FLASH (more obvious stuff..obviously…) the people at the TOP don’t need the social perks. LOL!

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        4. EnochArden

          @RobertWeigel That just made my brain bleed. You certainly have a knack for long-winded , ill-structured paragraphs. The point you made is a good one for another topic I guess.

          Of course conditioning is bad sometimes. I was not saying otherwise. However, Freemasonry simply has no agenda other than what it states openly. “Making good men better.” It doesn’t work for everyone, but It does for many. There is a Grand Lodge for local Blue Lodges, but don’t entertain the idea that a Blue Lodge must somehow answer to a Grand Lodge. All Masons are individuals first, not Freemasons first. Your example was valid as it’s own idea, just not useful to this conversation because Masons don’t interfere with the private lives of other people. Once again, I suggest befriending a Mason or visiting a Lodge to have a better basis for your argument. Again, this is MY experience with Freemasonry. Different Masons will give you different perspectives. There is no one way to be a Mason.

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        5. EnochArden

          @RobertWeigel

          That just made my brain bleed. You certainly have a knack for long-winded, ill-structured paragraphs. The point you made is a good one for another topic I guess.

          Of course conditioning is bad sometimes. I was not saying otherwise. However, Freemasonry simply has no agenda other than what it states openly. “Making good men better.” It doesn’t work for everyone, but It does for many. There is a Grand Lodge for local Blue Lodges, but don’t entertain the idea that a Blue Lodge must somehow answer to a Grand Lodge. All Masons are individuals first, not Freemasons first. Your example was valid as it’s own idea, just not useful to this conversation because Masons don’t interfere with the private lives of other people. Once again, I suggest befriending a Mason or visiting a Lodge to have a better basis for your argument. Again, this is MY experience with Freemasonry. Different Masons will give you different perspectives. There is no one way to be a Mason.

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        6. MatthewPittaway

          @RobertWeigel@EnochArden Exactly; when you pay your dues you are part and parcel empowering these people to influence politics. Look at the wars and pollution; you’re guilty with the leaders you support.

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        7. EnochArden

          @MatthewPittaway@RobertWeigel Everyone is guilty of different things so judge not, lest you be judged. It seems you are guilty of missing the point. I don’t know how many times I have to repeat this, so hopefully this is my last time… THESE ARE MY EXPERIENCES WITH FREEMASONRY. MY FAMILY MEMBERS WHO ARE MASONS ARE GOOD PEOPLE AND HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH ALL THIS CONSPIRACY NONSENSE PROJECTED ON THEM BY NON-MASONS WHO ARE TOO LAZY TO VISIT A LODGE AND REALLY LEARN ABOUT IT. IT IS MUCH EASIER TO BEAT A DEAD HORSE AND SLING MUD AT SOMEONE GIVING A PERSONAL HONEST ACCURATE ACCOUNT OF THE ORGANIZATION THAN IT IS TO SOUND INTELLIGENT ON THE MATTER.

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        8. RobertWeigel

          @EnochArden@MatthewPittaway 1) Turn the constant caps off, it’s annoying. It looks like a nigerian scammer font. lol.2) You are taking the ‘do not judge’ verse out of context. It says the kind of judgment you want to avoid (note that in John 7 as I recall Yeshua said TO MAKE right judgments but *not* to judge by appearances.) is one that you don’t want to be judged by.I HOPE people will judge me rightly because if I’m in error truly, I need to hear correction. Much like..I’m correcting you for pulling a scripture out of context and misrepresenting it’s meaning. This is addressing a particular KIND of judgement that is established in context. Were we simply not to ‘judge’ in any way, we could not obey many of the other scriptures Jesus gives like Matthew 18:15-xx.3) Jesus said “Why do you call me ‘good’ for no one is good by the Father in heaven”Now in other context Yeshua said he and the Father were one and if you’ve seen him you’ve seen the Father. So..he was asking a leading question there :-) Few got the answer right. Oh well.

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        9. RobertWeigel

          @EnochArden@MatthewPittaway stupid character limit then it won’t let you cut/paste! If you keep playing around it lets you. Frustrating.. continuing anyway..NOW AS I HAVE SAID MANY freemasons have no idea what is going on at the top. They have no idea why they are being told to wear funny hats and go spreading joy to every girl and boy or whatever it is they are doing. And the guys who proved faithful in that and got to the next level have no idea why they are being told other things and other things and other things above that until they are working to do more and more overtly the will of the people at the top. Naturally the first level of any multi-level organization is there to legitimize the organization. So it’s moot as to how nice people are because yes they are to act that way from the beginning and if they act disorderly of course they will be pulled aside and if they don’t respond will be kicked out eventually of course. But what happens at the higher levels? Something closer and closer to the agenda of the people at the top which is WHY the organization exists AS that kind of structure. Anyway the rest of us are self-centered and the only way we can be delivered of that is to get real and admit that we are NOT good. That in our heart we have selfish motives. And to surrender our hearts to him so that he can renew our mind as Romans 12 speaks of etc. Ok if we’re going to bring scriptures in let’s at least bring them in real context in the future ok?

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        10. EnochArden

          @RobertWeigel@MatthewPittaway It is actually subjective. Most believe it means don’t judge unfairly. I am fully aware of its meaning as were you aware of my context in which it was delivered. Do not get into theology debates with me please. I am a professor with a DMH and a Th.D… Once again you have proven that your skill for over analysis is a good fit for conspiracy theorists. I felt the caps were necessary because I keep making an understandable point that somehow keeps getting irrelevant responses. I thought maybe it is hard to read because the letters are too small. Certainly not because it is illogical.

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        11. RobertWeigel

          @EnochArden Look..I don’t have time for insulting people. You have a knack for shooting your own credibility in the foot by posting ad hominem. I’ll just ignore you. I have no time for that.

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        12. EnochArden

          @RobertWeigel I think you are being overly- sensitive. At any rate, I was really not trying to be insulting to you. I apologize if that is how it came off… I don’t think anybody’s credibility can be judged in impersonal chat rooms for that matter… Perhaps flaunting my education seems pompous, but I felt it necessary to inform you that I indeed understand the Bible and the context of it’s scripture. In fact, I am employed to do so. Being told I don’t understand easy scripture is offensive to the years of study and teaching I currently practice… I wish you peace, and hopefully not a distasteful regard of our conversation. God bless.

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        13. Fritz Springmeir

          @EnochArden @RobertWeigel. Being a Freemason per se is not evil. I have many friends that are in the blue lodge or are master Masons. Bieng a master Mason is only the 3 rd degree. By the way the term “getting the 3 rd degree” as the death of Hiram whiff is re enacted. After that the initiate is not yet an “adept” he can move on beyond the blue lodge to either the yorkish or Scottish rite. The Scottish seems he more popular of 9he 2 and it has 33 degrees. Most Masons never ascend to these higher degrees as my friends are happy staying in the blue degrees. Before

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        14. MiaBellezza

          @EnochArden@MatthewPittaway Just curious, what is the wording of the secret oath Freemasons take, and what is the punishment if they divulge this oath to a non-Freemason?

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        15. MiaBellezza

          @EnochArden@RobertWeigel Your mission is to infiltrate the Freemasons, quickly move up to 32nd Degree and then inform us of the truth. BTW do let us know the secret oath and the penalty for divulging it, if you are still able.

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      2. Jay martin

        the oaths are not secret, but sacred! as it should be for priests of melchizedek. Blind leading the blind, you people are.

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    2. KarenBoothTaylor

      @EnochArden You need to get Tom HOrn’s book Apollyon Rising 2012 and read it. It has all the info you need to know about the Masons! http://survivormall.com/ApollyonRising2012NephilimStargates.aspx

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      1. EnochArden

        @KarenBoothTaylor I know everything I need to about them, thanks.

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        1. EnochArden

          @KarenBoothTaylor And that book is ridiculous. If I’m gonna read fiction, I would like it to be at least marginally based on truth.

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  20. Larry777

    RON PAUL and Communist AYN RAND

    In his book, The Revolution: A Manifesto, Ron Paul recommended that his supporters read all of Ayn Rand’s books. Congressman Paul added a disclaimer that he has “strong disagreements with her on important matters.” His disagreements with Rand are never stated.

    “Ron Paul. A 10-term U.S. Congressman from Texas, Dr. Paul recently debuted a #1 bestselling book, ‘The Revolution: A Manifesto’, and in that book he places Ayn Rand’s ‘Atlas Shrugged’ firmly into his reading list, a couple of entries below Ayn Rand’s one-time intellectual ally, Isabel Paterson’s book, ‘The God of the Machine’ (which, it seems, both Dr. Paul and Ayn Rand highly enjoyed). But the most gracious acknowledgement to Ayn Rand is in what Dr. Paul wrote after the entry: ‘I consider all of Rand’s novels worth reading, in spite of my strong disagreements with her on important matters.’” (“Ayn Rand: The missing Libertarian Ingredient, the secret Ron Paul ingredient,” The Revolution: A Manifesto, p. 172)

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  21. MattWatts

    If he was a Freemason it would be wrong for him to lie about it. I hope that all these people who are bashing Freemasonry would grow up and see it for what it is. “Making good men better” I am proud to be a Freemason and If Ron Paul was one I am sure he would be proud of it as well. It is against masonic code to use Freemasonry for political gain.

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    1. TheorgTherealorg

      @MattWatts

      “Making good men better” I am proud to be a Freemason…Making good men better? Not that a man can walk alongside with God not by himself but with others whom desperately seek him through brainwashing institutions like….The masons or freemasonry Luciferian Doctrine….Yes, you can too become a God, young MattWatts….

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      1. MattWatts

        @ TheorgTheralorg-

        A man can walk among God by himself. There is no doubt about that. Freemasonry offers absolutely no salvation for it is not a church or a religion. It is a fraternity. That is like comparing the Lions Club to the Catholic church. There is a big difference. Of my time as a Freemason I have never once seen any relation to Lucifer. All these crazy nut job preachers writing books on the evils of Freemasonry are out for nothing more then to put another dollar in their pocket. I believe that Freemasonry has brought me closer to God by being around other great men who are out to do good for others. I am protestant and do not believe that we can ever become God. I believe that Jesus Christ died for my sins and I am one of Gods children. I will never be God nor will I ever claim to be..

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        1. Stone

          @MattWattsAlbert Pike, author of ‘Morals and Dogma,’ a doctrinal treatise of Freemasonry writes:

          “Masonry is a search after Light [note Pike uses the proper noun]. That search leads us directly back, as you see, to the Kabalah.” (Morals and Dogma, p.741)

          and then:

          “Lucifer, the Light-bearer! Strange and mysterious name to give to the Spirit of Darkness! Lucifer, the Son of the Morning! Is it he who bears the Light, and with its splendors intolerable blinds feeble, sensual, or selfish Souls? Doubt it not!” (Morals and Dogma, p.321)

          Although Pike admits that Lucifer is a bane to the feeble, sensual and selfish, nevertheless, Masonry searches for that Light. If this connection seems too obscure, this quote from Pike’s book Occult Theocracy clears the matter up nicely:

          “To you Sovereign Grand Inspectors General, we say this, that you may repeat it to the Brethren of the 32nd, 31st and 30th degrees – The Masonic religion should be, by all of us initiates of the high degrees, maintained in the purity of the Luciferian doctrine….Yes, Lucifer is God, and unfortunately Adonay is also God.” (Occult Theocrasy, p.220-221), [Edith Starr Miller, The Christian Book Club of America].

          I do not doubt that you are a Christian, nor do I doubt that some preachers are employed gainfully by the defamation of Freemasonry; however, there is little doubt that at the highest levels Freemasonry is a Luciferian religion; and so says Freemasonry’s most honored apologist, Albert Pike.

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        2. EnochArden

          @Stone@MattWatts You are living in the History/Discovery Channel world of lame documentaries. If you are cynical about the Masons, I suggest you go to a local Blue Lodge and actually speak to someone face to face. The doors are always open to anyone.

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        3. Fritz Springmeir

          “@Stone @MattWatts Freemasonry is an elitest occult based oath in blood bndd group. The Freemason or the initiate or the adept consider us the normal folk “the profane ” that is undeniable. Yes if you are in a blue lodge you have not gone 24beyond The 3rd degree as such u do not have a copy of moryals and dogma. by Albert Pike this has been like this since 1974 it is given at the 32 degree. So it is not a THING OF THE PAST any Mason stating that is at the bottom of the pyramid at its higher levels it is luciferan worship and adonay is the God of darkness. It is explained clearly here using Freemasons themselves. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtube_gdata_player&v=ZgFOa7hFnyg. I like ron it troubles me that his wife is a eastern star ( the female group of masonry and his children were rainbow ( the children’s organization ) I just hope he is not a Trojan horse. Right now he is my only hope but his potential ties to Freemasonry trouble me. By the way Obama is a 32 degree prince hall lodge ( black lodge) as is Herman Cain. Perry is also a freemason as is bill Clinton. Hillary is a eastern star as is Palin. Hugo Chavez is also as is Fidel Castro level33 learn about there things. Much much more

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        4. MattWatts

          @Fritz Springmeir@Stone You are insane. Nothing more and nothing less. I have said it once I will say it again. Morals and Dogma is not that special. It can be bought on Amazon. At a Scottish RIte Temple. Even be read at your local library. You know nothing about the Scottish Rite. You seem to be looking at alot of conspiracy sources. Bill Clinton is not a freemason. He was in the Demolay as a child but never became a freemason. I wouldnt know anything about Obama being a freemason or not. Prince hall is different than free and accepted. I doubt that he is though considering everything else you just said is false.

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  22. Danny0125

    Does it matter people?!? Ron Paul is a GOOD man and has got my vote :) I know nothing of politics, I am 20 years old, live in Florida, & a simple man… I’ve felt so demoralized over the past years, all this crazy ‘nwo’ & taking over the world stuff, brainwashing America, & secret societies that really run the world as we know it, It all left me feeling hopeless. But when I came across Ron Paul on the television, I felt a sense of happiness, hope :) the things he says is just absolutely inspiring to me, & I Hope America will WAKE UP & really see what I see. Google him. YouTube him. The man is Real. This is the Revolution. Do the right thing people. :) peace!

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  23. TheorgTherealorg

    ATTENTION AMERICAGod is sending us many leaders

    Recode DNA – Open Higher Dimensional Thinking

    We’ve predicted 2011 – Let us guide you in to 2012

    GOOGLE: 2012 America’s Spiritual Revolution

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  24. John W Tobin

    Ontime. What the hell do you think people (truther dummies as you say) are doing already? Tell me which other candidates are focusing on who benefits monetarily other than Ron Paul. The federal reserve system and it’s international banker owners are the ones who benefit monetarily.

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    1. MatthewPittaway

      The Kingdom of God suffers violence and the violent take it by FORCE.

      The fascists will continue a planned and kill, steal and destroy everyone and everything in their path until WE STOP THEM!!!! Tuf Luv Pops

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  25. ontime

    When are you “truther dummies” going to wake up and realize that they are ALL puppets. Have you forgotton who holds the purse strings? Have you never read or comprehended Rothschilds comment about caring not who runs the gov as long as he is able to print the money? Stop WASTING your time focusing on presidential puppets and start focusing on who benefits monetarily.

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  26. Robbie

    From what I’ve heard, can’t confirm or validate, that some or most of the mid to lower level masons are good, and I hear rumors and conjecture about some of the upper level ones. But masons don’t take running orders also, there is no real orders that go out to all the masons. RP’s voting record is nearly flawless and that should say enough. He’s been fighting the new world order every step of the way, and people are scared because they think he’s too perfect. Realize that RP would be in the same league as MLK and JFK for championing liberty. And just because his wife and or daughters have some affiliation, doesn’t mean they are championing the NWO. And the organization itself doesn’t have any real power, groups like Bilderberg and Bohemian Grove have power, seeing as Council on Foreign Relations members attend both. Ron Paul is the truth, you can tell by his mannerisms he is the real deal, you can detect honest and a good heart in his voice.

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  27. Teresa

    By the way id take Obama’s Muslim mumbo jumbo over Freemason any day. But they have been quoted as saying something like (No matter who you vote for you are always voting for us.) How jacked up is that? Its time we all go to Goooosh I may have spelled that wrong but its those letters.. From here on out we will select who runs and who don’t run. Then we pick who we want out of that.. They don’t pick no more.. Plus from what I understand they are a bunch of old dudes.. Like Bush daddy. How much longer do you think that old dude has got? Sad part is im up there in age right along with them. Ill never see a clear day.

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    1. BIG DADDY

      Teresa, believe that is the truth; we think we have a choice but not really. Watch a good video by George Carlin on utube the illousin of choice. Really good vieo. The NWO has been running the show and were are just like sheep on the plantation. The plantation meaning America.

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  28. Teresa

    Ron Paul being a Freemason means everything. It would be a straight up coin toss over the Mormons and the Freemasons. They equally do not worship Jesus Christ. But I have been about 3 to 4 days researching this as deep as I can go and I can not take to more.. My heart is starting the feel heavy.. I am finished with it.. Every President except for Abe and JFK were all Freemasons. 2 out the the four assassination presidents were the only two not worshiping Satan. But Abe did call upon the spirits for guidance through seances Performed in the White House. So the only one left was the adulterous one who had the affair with the equally guilty Marlin Monroe although I admire a lot about her that part is horrible but we all fall to temptation and sin from time to time. That does not say we are Satan lovers like people who are Freemasons. I really would like conformation plz. Perfect straight line or not holds no differences to be.. Demons can run a person life when they feel fit to.. They could be waiting until election. So lets try and have this confirmed. Ron Paul will respect our concerns. After all who could blame us. Our government so far has almost a perfect evil record.

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    1. BIG DADDY

      The freemasons go back to the knights Templar. JFK was the only person who stood against the secret societies. I did see something that RP was a freemason but it was a while back. Don’t remember where I came across that info.

      Even Obma is a freemason.

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    2. Walt Williams

      Whether Ron Paul is a Freemason or not is completely irreverent. I doubt that he is. So what if he is? What difference does it make? My main concern is can he do be a good president. Personally I think he can; though he is in for a hell of a battle in the form of status quo folks preventing him from restoring this country as a great nation again.

      I think a lot of folks are really caught up in a whole lot of conspiracy theory crap. I know because I was caught up in this crap myself. If there is a shadow government (I tend to lean in the direction that there might be) do you suppose that your fear is precisely what they want? Fear is a great control tool.

      For the record: Nine of the signers of the Declaration of Independence and thirteen of the signers of the Constitution were Freemasons. This is confirmed. If the Freemasons were trying to take over the country do you suppose it is because this isn’t the same country they helped form in the first place?

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      1. DrMichelle

        Wanna know how and why our ‘country’ was formed?

        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91qs9v-upWI&feature=related

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        1. Fritz Springmeir

          @DrMichelle great video. I agree on Mormons at least before the quorum of 70 and what I learned up and through my mission Jesus Christ is taught. I did go through the temple and received their oaths covenants and initiations i do not know if at higher levels as in freemasonry it changes though.

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      2. MatthewPittaway

        Secret Societies are unnacceptable in a free republic, PERIOD. And Christ said “Do not swear…” so as soon as a organization wants you to make an oath; get out! Run! Rev. Pittaway

        If they are good; they will come to the light so their works may be seen by all, but the evil hide because their DEEDS ARE EVIL! ~Christ Our Lord

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    3. DrMichelle

      I am an expert on what mormons worship. They do worship Jesus Christ. That is a fallacy. I spent over 35 years an active mormon. I just no longer do any organized religion, but I can guarantee they do worship Christ.

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    4. DrMichelle

      I am an expert on what mormons worship. They do worship Jesus Christ. That is a fallacy when you say they do not. I spent over 35 years an active mormon. I just no longer do any organized religion, but I can guarantee they do worship Christ.

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  29. Lukarious Shijkonite

    Actually RP is a confirmed 100% Freemason, just check out youtube where he is seen handshaking other masons. He is controlled oppsoition to you sheep who think finally you have somone on your side… wRONg.

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    1. Paul Newman - Tulsa

      At least post some kind of factual proof other than claiming his handshake on Bill Maher to “PJ O’Rourke & Ben Affleck” was for masonic intentions. Or the two pictures of him doing a half-assed love/wave are hidden intentions as well. I’m a Ron Paul supporter, but open minded to “confirmed EVIDENCE”. I’m not sure who confirmed he is a mason, other than yourself. Are you “confirming” from the picture you seen of him @ Georgetown Jesuit University or his speech @ the JBS? Has he not done a ton of speeches @ other universities? Do you make a speech at a place where people claim to be your supporters? Do you lump his supporters ideologies as him agreeing with them? Are you the same person that thinks, because he got a donation from a KKK member(s?), that he’s also affiliated with them? If a racist person walks into my establishment and I serve them their order, am I also a racist?

      Or wait, is your mindset concerning this?

      “1. Ron Paul’s father was a Freemason and Dr. Paul has said himself many times that he respects the organization and has been to many of the open meetings in his district. I should know, I was his scheduler for ten years.

      2. His wife, Carol is a member of the Velasco Order of the Eastern Star and maintains her membership in the Freeport area lodge.

      3. Their daughters, Lori and Joy, were both Rainbow girls, another organization associated with Freemasonry.”

      Which is supposed to be from, “http://www.dailypaul.com/node/46310″. That’s supposedly a forum post by a “scheduler” affiliated with the RP campaign. I can make a post on the forum and claim anything. However, they seem to get moderated. Whether a RP affiliate doesn’t get monitored or they just implemented it prior to that, that’s an open discussion. There’s been nothing more to bring the above to light, so I disregard it as a smear tactic.

      I will change on a dime or a 50cent piece if I know someone has a hidden agenda that’s far from their original one. The part is “knowing”. How can I know something if people have bullshit arguments that are lifeless and have no origination.

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      1. John W Tobin

        Paul Newman – Tulsa. Well said. I do know that a lot of people have joined organizations that you mentioned and never see anything of them that would lead them to think that there is anything malevolent about them.
        It does seem like when one person makes the claim that a Ron Paul (or whomever) is a mason, all the RP (or whomever) haters just pick up that ball and run with it to make them look like the anti-Christ.

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    2. RobertWeigel

      I saw this really goofy video trying to portray him raising his hands with a satanic symbol supposedly. First it’s so easy to video edit these days..I’d want some proof that was even original footage. Secondly though people see things at times and imitate without even thinking about what they’re doing. eg. he sees rock stars doing it and gets in an environment where the crowd is cheering and imitates the gesture to get the crowd laughing or whatever. THen some idiot takes the video out of that context and posts it as PROOF..as though a REAL satanists would make a satanic gesture KNOWING that someone is going to ruin his career over it in front of a crowd like that! LOL!Seriously… people need to get a brain or they’re going to wind up with one of the OTHER candidates who we have like 400X the evidence that they are up to something overtly not good. haha. eg. Cain wanting to tax poor people 28% of their income. (9 plus the 9 since they spend near all they make… plus 10 for social security ). Great..another angle by which to totally ruin the sector that can’t set their own wage etc.Anyway HANDSHAKES… I just viewed this IDIOTIC video that shows him stretching over the top of a table and winding up with a slightly awkward angled handshake since neither person was in a natural position maybe to comfortably turn their hand totally sideways. lol. I mean SERIOUSLY NOBODY would do this on national tv if they WERE a satanist or whatever. Gimme a break. People are just too silly to think things through I guess.

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  30. Sarah

    can we verify this letter some how?

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  31. Gary Webb

    Ron Paul’s wife and daughter are confirmed Eastern Star.

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    1. RobertWeigel

      Confirmed by who? Where? The NORMAL way to insert such a point is to put some reference to an interview. Otherwise it’s just some faceless person making a hand waving claim which..makes said person look frankly stupid. BACK IT OR STOP IT. That’s what intelligent people do. They don’t spread unconfirmed rumors. Please give some credible reference. It’s certainly POSSIBLe that a non-mason would marry someone who had that in their background and then they put their daughter in some program. Whatever. I don’t see how that affects Ron directly . People do what they do. Not everyone marries into a perfect situation. There are often things to work out. However PLEASE POST REFERENCES GARY.

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    2. Fritz Springmeir

      you uuoy@Gary Webb yyo

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    3. Fritz Springmeir

      @Gary Webb you are correct Gary and that is what concerns me. It is highly unlikely for a woman to belong if her husband were not.

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  32. Lilly

    Read his statement of faith, examine his life, his medical practice, service record and voting history. Ron Paul doesn’t need anything else to speak for his integrity.

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  33. Rebel Knight

    The low-level free-masons are usually what they appear, albeit arrogant and ignorant to their masters’ true agenda. The upper-level masons are either Brotherhood elite/Dark Illuminati/Bilderberg members, or controlled by them.

    RK

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  34. Robert

    Agreed Warbard, Ron Paul would make a good Mason. By and large, Freemasons are a pretty liberty-minded group and a surprising number support Dr. Paul, including me!

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    1. RobertWeigel

      The issue most have with freemasonry is it’s a secretive organization with oaths and all that. Once a person takes such an oath they are basically putting their FAITH in humanity not doing corrupt things that they would, in good conscience, have to warn people about.Umm. Humanity has a crummy track record. So I’d recommend opting out of that for sure.

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  35. Warbard

    Damn shame if he is not. That would have said a lot for him as a man of integrity!

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