Ron Paul is not, and never has been, a mason or freemason.
FreeMasons are Lucifarians and support staff for the illuminati...THANK GOD THE ANSWER WAS NO!
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Being a mason is same as Being a Zionist or pro-Zionist; RP is neither!
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Was That Tmi
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@TheCrocodiler That is the "outsiders" view, yes. The religious group from whence the knights Templar came from is essentially Zionist. Later the very same religious system secretly revived the order in Scotland through it's Jesuit order (created to eradicate Protestantism) as a means to infiltrate the protestant churches.
He would have no reason to hide his membership. We do not conceal it because we do not have to in the USA. Thanks to our brothers before us who founded this great country.
Go Ron Paul 2012
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this is on the presidential paper and also is signed by him. i do not believe that he is a free mason .. he does not want war he also wants to bring all of our troops home. he does not believe in any of the things that the mason's did or that they do. He Believes in The Constitution in which none of the others have proved that they do. RON PAUL FTW
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I'm 32 degree Freemason, its always funny too me non mason think they know everything.
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@RyanJamesDuffy ,Nobody Knows Anything Mason Or Non Mason . " Period " ,Let God be True & Every Man A Liar
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This Does Not Prove Or Disprove Ron Paul A Freemason
It's a pitty this goodman is not a btother. However I really like his proposals and his definition of freedom!
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The most important thing to me is to have a personal relationship with God. A true believer will be a shining example of Gods grace in the compassionate and charitable actions of that persons nature. Speaking about religious topics has done it to me again. Always becoming an ouroboros of defining and defending among the topics. It's really not worth your/our time. I am guilty of this also, but I just realized AGAIN that anything involving religion and internet chat rooms is like a pointed circle. Too much assumed and too much missed in theoretical context for a real conversation. POINTLESS!!! ...Gotta go, Satan wants to party!
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I am not masquerading. That is my name. I never said I was from the prophesy club or that I lecture. I Answer questions while I drive using voice recognition it and my phone sucks. Sorry for all the typos but it is what I can do to answer when I can. I am farmiliar with Fritz springmeiers work and have learned a lot from him I also liked the book behold a pale horse among other books. To be honest I put my whole name hoping that the other Fritz would get googled and someone could learn a thing or 2. I did use one of his videos and that could have been why u thought that. I am not Christian nor of any other denomination. If I go to a church I have a friend who was a Mason and is a judge and I go to his Methodist church for holidays I enjoy the people and the energy there. I prefer nature to a building cause if you can't find God in a flower the eyes of a child or in a suffering human being you'll never find him in a temple chapel or synanagogue. No offense taken. Go ron paul
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@RobertWeigel I don't understand whats happening here. Obviously no one has a sense of humor, or is too narrow in comprehension... I am a Lucifer lover?! What?!? Sheez, you people are really out of touch and JUDGMENTAL. Always waiting for a scrap of meat to pulverize... You call me a troll as well? Why, because I am making conversation? ...Also, every single person has demons and if you were to feel compassion for that person, I guess you would have to be compassionate to their subjective needs as a believer. I have not once assumed anything upon any of you. I allow open ended nomenclature, however "Don't Judge" is EXACTLY what one is supposed to do as a Christian. That is NOT a reference out of context- It is Christianity by and large. There is one rule. God is Judge. The second most being there is One God. And for you to tell me otherwise is a fallacy. You are just like the rest of the self-righteous, always assuming a fight when there is only discussion, human beings. If it is not YOUR Chrstianity, it is not Christianity... No one on this site has any sense of wit. Only harsh self-truths to pontificate.
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@EnochArden Have compassion for demons? That makes...no sense but hey whatever.
@EnochArden Just ticks me off...the internet has done so much to degrade the overall integrity of human beings. When someone says "Do not judge"...they make the FROSH mistake of RIPPING THAT verse out of context when it REALLY says 'for by the same standard you judge, that you will be judged"But then in other verses like Matthew 7:24 it COMMANDS us to make RIGHT judgments! So what kind of person who is REALLY a bible scholar of *any* kind would just go around posting 'don't judge' out of context?This guy has no relevant bible education if he makes that kind of error. And it saddens me that people claim to have doctorates and stuff when they MAKE that kind of error. Some people actually WORK for those degrees. So this person is functioning as a 'troll' in that they just post stuff like that which doesn't match up with the stuff they are posting. I'm here at 727 N. 5th ave. in Bozeman, MT. My info's all on my website. Anyone can verify who I am. These anonymous people who do this stuff...it's like a mental illness. It really is...and it results indeed from spiritual illness.
@Reggie. Thank u for The article. I have a copy of morals and dogma and it is a difficult read much of it is taken from aleister Crowley deeply rooted in the kabalah and Hebrew magical writtings. I read the article and it is deceptive at best. First I want to tell u I am not Christian though I try to he Christ like. So u are not dealing with a fundamentalist of any kind. I am a truth seeker and do believe in lower and higher energies. I have always considered Lucifer a lower energy. It is troubling to me that men meet in secret take oaths of blood and assume to be more enlightened than anyone
tto me spirituality in its pure form is not elitest but seeks balance and synthesis as opposed to seperateness. So in essence it is this that troubles me. Albert Pike is revered in all of Freemasonry as I have friends.that are triads ( Asian lodge) and bnai brith ( Jewish lodge) it is also racist in Thank a black brother from a prince hall lodge would.not go to anwhite lodge. Albert Pike was involved with the kkk and That is a fact. I just want to know this do you believe that Masons are not luciferans? That is the key question? And if so show me a Masonic text that states this. They use the baphomet look it up it is on the cap of the 32 nd degree it has 2 symbolic manifestations one is a conglomerate of crosses. On white members it is vertical on black members at the 32 nd degree it is slanted. The other manifestation of the baphomet is a horned goat /man that was drawn by aleister Crowley . Locks into these things. I have not even mentioned manly p hall.whom also stated the luciferan doctrine in Freemasonry. We can go back and forth however the key question is IS FREEMASONRY AT THE TOP OF THE PYRAMID IN THE CAPSTONE LUCIFERAN? ill await the reply with the text citing it
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Morals and dogma were written way before Crowley. What are your research materials? Read the book,... if you can. I know hundreds of Masons and maybe 10 have actually read Morals and Dogma in its intirety. If you read it completely you will see that is an epic work of the study of all mythology and religions searching for that kernal of truth in all of them. By the way, Lucifer, means bearer of light. Jesus confirmed he was bearer of light when he said ' I am the light of the world...' the mysteries are left for the adept, the rest is left for you in parables. You must seek the truth. Hope makes you seek. Blind Faith makes you a danger to mankind. Vivat!
PM John M. Carden K.T., 32'
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You are just perpetuating nonsense... Kill it already. If you are not a Mason, don't worry about what Masons do. Quoting people like Albert Pike and buying into the History Channel and Dan Brown shite. I promise Freemasons will not affect your life. My Grandfather was a Master Mason and very involved throughout many states with many charities and NON-Masonic organizations. He was a "higher-up" in the truest sense, and he was also one of the most gentle and honest men to exist and hid nothing to me about the symbolism used. Are you calling my G'pa a fuck!? ... Kidding by the way, but everyone gets so into how much they know about the Masons when they are NOT a Mason...No one man is alike, therefore it's true to say Masons can be one way or another just like the next man. Just like a Religion. Just like a job. Just like the whole fucking world! The crap you just fed everyone here is irrelevant to modern Masons. Do you know that Salvation Army bell ringers are harvesters of evil too?!? Meh...
@EnochArden uh boy... never mind...
@truth4real Thank u this is what I have been trying to point out. I am on a phone and long detailed answers are difficult. Bravo and qudos to u
@truthbereal Thank u.....this is what I have been trying to point out. I am on
There is no ignorance in the FACT that the organization has people take oaths of secrecy.IF there is no agenda, there is no need for oaths of secrecy. There's your valid point. HISTORY gives us another 'valid point'. Heads of ANYTHING tend to go towards corruption. Look at the actions of all people in history who had ultimate power save the kings of Israel who had a heart after God. They were positioned in a place that would draw them that direction though. While the odds of a good king there weren't GOOD still... we see a VASTLY worse situation in dictatorships where they weren't surrounded by an overt framework that would lead them to do what was right.Now...we're talking about a group with secret oaths again. lol. Generally GOOD things don't NEED to be done in secrecy. (And in fact the good freemasons do is NOT DONE IN SECRECY so don't even go DOWN *that* lame path.... )Anyway there are a couple 'valid points' for ya.
@kotel4 http://www.christian-restoration.com/fmasonry/miscellaneous.htm @kotel4 you obviously did not look at the link provided where there are actually scanned pages from morals and dogma
morals and dogma is given to the higher degrees
as a Traveling man or initiate or friend of hiram or whatever other secret term you may want touse to describe yourself if you are a feeemason. you are obviously at the bottom of the pyramid
probably blue lodge member. you will never read morals and dogma from where you are. I have only used Albert pikes 33 degree freemason and demigod to freemasons own words. being prejudice is making a decision before having enough data to base a decision. after you read morals and dogma get back to me on your view of freemasonry not being luciferan
@Fritz Springmeir@kotel4 Morals and Dogma can be bought at any scottish rite temple and can be read at most local libraries. It is nothing special. I came to the conclusion that Albert Pike was a well read man. There is nothing in the book that would go against Christianity.
@MattWatts to start I never said that morals and dogma was hard to find. I states it was given to the master Mason in the blue lodge until the late seventies and from hen on only given at the thirty scond. Degree. IWilliam Blythe as he was born later changed his name to. Clinton from a marriage his mom had. He is a demolay as it is a lifetime membership. If you knew simething about jaques demolay amdthe the whether or not he admits it he is a
@MattWatts sorry answering from a phone. Ughhh as I was saying Jacques demolay was a knights Templar and ended up being burned at the stake. It is said rthat the templars took refuge within Freemasonry. If you study Cecil Rhodes also a Freemason since eighteen seventy seven. He amassed a great fortune and dreamed of English Masonic imperial dominance though St same time was critical of French Freemasonry. Hebert up 3 wills. And left a Rothschild ( yes from the same Rothschild that set up the federal reserve on jeckle island with the other families ) in his will he set up the Rhodes scholarship to Oxford. It was set up to propogate Freemasonry in the framework of education for the advancement of.the British empire. Bill was a Rhodes scholar as well. It was Cecil Rhodes money that created the cfr another elite group setting up world agendas. Bill belongs to that as well as the trilateral commission and he has attended the globalist agenda bilderbergs. If its true is it a theory? Whether or not he has declared himself a Freemason he is. He is a phony as his wife Hillary who is an eastern star and is a marrano (a Jewish person who passes themself off as Christian) she is a Rosenberg as is Palin who talks.about Christian values and marries all her kids off in Jewish ceremonies as she comes from an Argentine Jewish legacy. As far as morals and dogma not being anti Christian. I am not a Christian though I try to he Christlike. I do believe luciferbto be a lower energy and do not subscribe to decieving. The light beeping sought.by the initiate s Lucifer. If you open your copy of morals and digma to page 321
It clearly states he is the light bearer. What part of Christianity does that support. Study aleister Crowley a Freemason and world famous black magician tell me he and his baphomet were Christlike in any way. Ifbyou are a Mason you no longer have your eyes closed you are in it eyes wide open. Wish u the best.
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That is the supidest thing I have ever heard. Morals and Dogma is given at the end of the 14th in the Scottish Rite and has been since it was written. The 14th is the beginning of the Christian degrees of the Scottish Rite 14th through 18th. This country, and probably the city you live in, was founded by men of the Masonic fraternity, and now it is inhabited by people like you who believe in reptilian aliens, and satan worshippers, and illuminati. Idiot! The real enemy is yourself... the greatest jihad! Just to add fuel to your fire.
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@Reggie I understand your points. http://crossbearer-brian.tripod.com/id288.htm
this article has scanned pages from the book morals and dogma by Albert Pike a demigod in in Freemasonry. Freemasonry is a luciferan religion that decieves those at the bottom ofnthe pyramid. Below 32nd degree
Study manly p hall and aleister Crowley ( perhaps the worlds greatest black magician) and by the way Albert pikes remains.are buried in Tue Washington DC 33 rd degree Masonic temple. Al of the above came after our founding father's so I don't know if Freemasonry may have taken a wrong turn in the 1800s . I feel it has always been luciferan though. Study and you will see. By the way you and I non Masons are considered profane to them.
If the world is going to end in 2012 and the Masons somehow have secret knowledge of this. Don't you think, Freemasons would start hanging out with their family more. Do a little more fishing and not pay their dues because soon money would be obsolete anyway? C'mon people!!! Citing crazy books like "Apollyon Rising" which no historian or scientist is going to seriously endorse, and youtube videos made by people who are angry they were never included in a group just lauds the ignorant. Some questions and examples to all the people on here against Freemasonry- You ever vote? Have you ever gone to a fundamentalist church? Have you ever given to a charity? These are all things that are uncertain to you in regards to how your time with them is constructively used for good. Your vote goes to an electoral college. Your pastor has the biggest house and nicer car than you(God willed it, right?,) and your charity dollars maybe funneled to a dozen other things before it does any good... The point is, everyone participates in things that are elusive every day. If you find yourself more involved with one aspect of society more than another, it's quite NORMAL. It's not a conspiracy to want to belong to a group. It's called human nature. Throughout history bored, uninformed people gravitate to an idea and attack it because its foreign. And instead of personally learning about it by human interaction with its source, propaganda is made and a collective conscious is born out of illogical emotions... Lodge doors are always open to the public.
@EnochArden YOu have shown your ignorance in one statement alone! "" Your pastor has the biggest house and nicer car than you(God willed it, right?,"" First of all, my husband IS a pastor. We have NEVER made more than $25,000 a year, drove cars til they were ready to fall apart, never wore designer clothes unless they were hand me downs, never lived in a big new home. We are now retired living in a repo $40,000 home, and struggling to make ends meet. NOT ALL PASTORS are rich! MOST are living on menial income. Stop watching the TV preachers..that's not real life! I have given to charity. I have been in an evangelical church all my life. The charities I give to are through my church and 90% goes TO THAT group.. 10% in the processing of the funds.
I will stand by the Book Apollyon Rising because Tom HORN has done his research. I do not care what Masons say. I visited one of their "temples" on a tour. We asked them questions..rote answers, evasive answers are what we got. I saw all the pagan symbolism for myself.
The Freemasons do have an agenda, the little guy in it has NO idea. Believe what you want...that is your right. Before Horn's book I was aware of it. My church even takes a stand against any secret organizations for good reason.
Do you also not believe Bernacke and his "world bankers" are trying to break the world economy? Or the Bilderburgs role in ushering in the NWO? Sorry Enoch, but the Bible has told of all these things coming to be toward the end... and as I read the headlines and the Bible they go hand in hand.
@KarenBoothTaylor Evangelical beliefs are poison(IMHO)...Otherwise, I did not mean to be insulting. I am no Atheist and wish the best for your family. Only a fool would lump all religion into one superficial category. I think most people would understand that particular sentence was in jest. Lighten up. Fundamentalism is wrong. If you really understand the Bible, then you would appreciate it enough to have a historical look on it. I don't wish to fight. I am not an internet troll or self righteous person. I was simply stating what I believe based on my experience. God Bless.
@KarenBoothTaylor I want to reiterate that I am a Christian. Maybe not in the traditional sense, but I am. And If you took my comments as a personal attack, then please understand that I only speak from experience. I want peace. I want charity and compassion. I wish no person ill-will. However, you can never convince me that fundamentalism is holy. If that was the case than women would still be kicked out of their home when they were ovulating without child and we would still be sacrificing animals on alters. I am NOT saying you are wrong. I am just saying, as a Theology major and Doctor of Naturalism, the Bible is not correct in it's morals as a whole. I believe in the message of Jesus only. Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. The rest is political, fear-mongering, traditionalist, nonsense. It's widely believed by historians now that the whole concept of Christianity arose from the ashes of Zoroastrianism. The book you mention simply has no merit. It is false. To give it heed is to play into the trappings of an outsider struggling to look in. Think about this. If there were no Christianity, there would be no baphomet, or pentagram. One begets the other. it is not Satanic to acknowledge something unholy. It is Satanic to put value into it.... God Bless.
@EnochArden@KarenBoothTaylor What are you defining as 'fundamentalism?Relativism is holy? Relativism is where there are no absolutes and each one does whatever they see right in their own eyes.What is Holy is to humble one's self before a Holy God and to thank him for his gift to them. And to begin a journey of getting to know him. Whenever they step off that path they will do unholy things still. And he will discipline those he loves and call them to make right whatever they have done to others. It's because i've humbled myself before God that I endure having no wife. I stood up for what was right NOT for what I would have wanted. I look back and see I had no personal agenda for doing what was truthful and thoughtful of others..but which I knew would probably cause the woman to be overchallenged and she'd dump me... over and over this happened over the years. It's a crummy world. And if you follow Jesus he said people will hate you in general. Expect nothing less. Because most are writing their own playbook ast hey go. Anyway to me 'fundamentalism' is following the fundamentals :-)> I can't depart from the fundamentals if they are truth. The truth much be discerned by each person and they will be responsible before God for whether or not they chose to do that.
@RobertWeigel@KarenBoothTaylor To me, fundamentalism is a literal interpretation of the Bible disregarding historical and scientific logic regarding absolute divinity. Let it be said that just because I disagree with you, or anyone else I converse with for that matter, that it doesn't automatically mean that I am being dismissive or that I think relativism is holy. These things are not at all my philosophy.
@EnochArden@KarenBoothTaylor I see no contradiction in scientific logic and the claims of the bible. I've been on the usenet/internet 25 years and have challenged people since the beginning to bring ANY alleged contradiction there. So far all people have brought are out of context speculations etc.FOR THE RECORD though, I wouldn't know that the bible is trustworthy without the witness of the spirit. I *grew up* in a group that misrepresented various things FROM the bible but called themselves fundamentalist I do believe. As do most groups who..disagree with one another :-)I prayed and read the bible through from cover to cover while continually praying. I soon was finding myself butting heads with people who couldn't reason and instead they just alienated me.I believe the few that will really look at the bible in that way will find in that fellowship with God's spirit a clear interpretation of what is going on there. THE LITERAL GRAMMAR finally jumps out and it makes sense! ANd you see 'wow...every part of it is actually cohesive! ' NOW..if humans had altered it that wouldn't be the case since a good part of it was established BC. And..I might add...was counter motivational. It made the people who brought it forth look like spiritual buffoons. They would run from God overall when he tried to draw near, etc.Anyway try it. It really changes everything. Most people calling themselves 'fundamentalist' hate me. But I love the truth. I will logically rip them apart usually because they are teaching things that are in contradiction with their own text. (eg. the framework of the tithe..the framework of church leadership etc. etc.)
@EnochArden ""If that was the case than women would still be kicked out of their home when they were ovulating without child and we would still be sacrificing animals on alters. "" Enoch.. if you have read the Bible as a WHOLE..you would know your statement here holds no water. Jesus came to do away with the sacrifice of animals..HE became the sacrifice for our sin. He also put women into a higher position and with respect. Some of his early followers were women who started their own "churches" (lydia, for ex). YOu cannot take part of the Bible and not all of it. It is one continuous message of creation of perfection, the fall of man, God's provision and promise, the Fullfillment of that promise (Jesus), how to live a Godly life as Jesus showed us, and the end of evil in the world and God's eternal promise to those who love Him. You cannot throw away part of it because then there is no reason for Jesus coming.
What has the pentagram or anything like that have to do with Christianity?? anything with a pagan reference comes from SAtan to deceive and destroy. He always takes what is good and twists it for his evil purposes. I will not go into a discussion of Christmas and EAster and all the other nonsense so many try to argue. I celebrate those seasons because I believe in Christ and love Him and what I do have nothing in my mind to do with any pagan ideas. It's okay to paint your face, put on stupid hats and scream like a banshee at a pigskin being tossed on a field..but NOT okay to put up a tree with the Lights (the Light of the world is Jesus) or a wreath (eternity) to celebrate the GREATEST LIFE ever lived who gives us HOPE! I will celebrate it with Christian ideals and the pagans can believe what they want..they worship Satan anyway..and he's a liar!
Also.. the pagan world was in existence long before Jesus, because God was the God of Israel. the other nations worshipped satan and his minions. When Jesus came, he came for the Jews first (who rejected him) and then the Gentiles because God loved all mankind. The argument pagans use that their religion is older than Christianity is true.. it was..Zeus, Apollo, all of them were SAtanic though. It took Jesus to come to show a better way.
You might do well also to check out http://stevequayle.com/ and his section on Giants too. 30 years of research from all over the world. Giants are in the Bible (Goliath) and were all over the world. who were they? Interesting things. Not everything is word for word in the Bible, science has proven much, given explanations for much but God also has given the reason WHY and WHO! That is what is so great!
I listened to a round table online with several christian men about some things that are going on in the world now and how it relates to the Bible. If you want to listen to it here is the link:
as far as Fundamentalism.. I do think there is a place for Science in my life..the Bible is Full of science and of course History. I am one who Believes the Bible is true in what it says and that it has the plan for mankind. I am not one whose mind is closed to reason, but I will not accept the lies from Satan that the Bible is pagan and full of contradictions. Why? Because those are lies from Satan, and the Bible says he is the father of lies!
@KarenBoothTaylor@EnochArden Steve Quayle is a local. I've met him. Didn't seem like he wanted to talk to me much. LOL. Not surprising. He is *another* guy who founds his 'work' on unbased speculations. Total waste of time. The giants were the result of 'sons of God' (who could be angels..OR people who were following God as per Psalm 82...but if you look at matthew 19.... then you see that we will be as the angels..neither married nor given in marriage)...Anyway I've written a lot of detail on this biblically. The nephilim re-emerged after the flood again for the same reason. People perverting the intent God had that there be his spirit working in relations.... when people depart from his covering they open themselves up to possible mutations etc. obviously. We were fearfully and wonderfully made and require continual interaction with our creator.
@RobertWeigel The idea that the angels never marry or aren't given in marriage was IN Heaven..but when they fell they have broken every law of God! It was not that they couldn't have sex, in heaven it was not necessary..on earth it could be a very different thing! If the spirit of God could impregnate Mary, do you not think that the fallen angels could do the same. After all, demons have had sex with human women. In fact there are modern day women in the music business who have stated they desire to have sex with demons (aliens). Sorry.. but if anyone does not agree with you they are jumping to conclusions? His book Angel Wars is very informative and BACKED up with page after page of references. HOw can you deny the bones of giants that are found and photographed(before computors and photoshop). He has a letter from a military pilot who helped just a while back remove a giant body from Afghan ( I think it was) that they killed..after it killed several soldiers and ate them. This is exactly what the Nephelim did. Sorry..but I believe their work is valid..and backed by evidence. You can believe what you will..that's your right.
@KarenBoothTaylor You don't know that. Sheer speculation. God created Angels a whole different order. It's thus logical to think a COW is more likely to be able to produce offspring with us. I see no foundation that spiritual beings can have sex with humans. This in itself is typical of mormon theology. Anyway not interested in arguing speculations. thanks. I'm busy.
@KarenBoothTaylor Miss Taylor, I am a Theology professor, so it's kind of my job to read the Bible(and various other religious texts) as a WHOLE... Were you not so eager to counterpoint me with your Jesus talk. I know the teachings of Christ. The point I was making was clear. It is that the majority of Christians pick and choose what to believe from the Bible. It took quite sometime after the death of Christ before even gentiles stopped adopting the rights of cleanliness of the old... I don't need informed on what the Bible says, I read it too... Some examples of picking and choosing being Most people teach their children that Noah took two of every animal on his ark. Well, most Bibles say he took seven pairs of ritually clean animals and two pairs of ritually unclean animals. Like, fourteen elephants to every two spiders and so on... Most Bibles say that although Adam and Eve were the first two created by God in Eden, once they were expelled, they had to live among the wild people of the planet. So, first two perfect people in Eden, not the first people however... Have you ever read about the Council of Nicea? And I'm not talking Wikipedia references- When the first council(of the two major Nicean councils) went down, much of what was in the Bible was taken out, edited, and dates were given to celebrations... Basically, the Bible you read today is a version distorted by the church. One must consider also, that we now revolve around a calender based on farming. Day light savings, leap years and the like. So when some nutjob says he has proof of the world ending on a certain day, they are surely blowing smoke because it's incalculable to know for sure when Biblical events took place or will take place... Also, you should read on Zoroastrianism as it was basically the frame for the New Testament and it's widely believed that the wise men were Mazdaist(Zoroastrian.) Point being, Jesus himself had a good chance of being anointed by magicians of a pagan religion... These small little tweaks in history and gaffes in current storytelling probably don't mean much, but if one is to take the Bible as a "WHOLE," then maybe they do... And the baphomet, pentagram, hex marks, etc. are only evil to Christians because Christians are the only ones who give them power. Satan does not give them power. Christians and Pagans alike do when they use them as examples of evil. All alone, sitting by themselves, they are just a drawing. Is a picture of a crucifix holy? ...Nope.
@KarenBoothTaylor Just in your opinion I have a question for you Miss Taylor. If the only way into Heaven is through Him, where does that leave the people who have never heard of Jesus? Someone on an island that has no Mission for example? Is that person going to hell?
@EnochArden@KarenBoothTaylor I've been reasoning with people in the scriptures since long before I began doing it on the internet in 1986 (or usenet as some called it then. Though we had quite an interesting cross section of people with the .gov, .mil and .edu people at the time.) Speaking hours a day average with people probably. We've covered every issue multiple times and I FULLY AGREE that most read the bible out of context. However...a lot of others get slants on that context and *if* we remember that the narrow way is..narrow and *FEW* (Biblically..scant few if you believe much of the history :-)...which..I do ...believe the history...) then we would not EXPECT ohhhhh...sayyyyy. major well funded theological seminaries.... orrrr....church denominations that own them often... to be completely founded in the scriptures...if the scriptures are true in that.Jesus taught that ALL men will hate us if we truly follow him. How hated are you if you are acclaimed as an authority on the scriptures my mass numbers of people?hmmm...not..near as hated as me. That's for sure. hehe.Anyway that's why arguments from authority don't fly PARTICULARLY in biblical discussions. God will use those perceived as foolish by the masses to humble the wise often.The Counsel of Nicea didn't 'distort' anything. RATHER they chose which books seemed to have the rigorous authentication tests. (ie. a well established trail of history as to their sourcing, a consistency with other established books etc.)For example Enoch while sharing even something in Jude, has some very VERY questionable statements in it that depart from the patterns of the other books AND IT'S SOURCING IS COMPLETELY in limbo.THerefore...no Enoch, no childhood gospel of THomas, etc. That one being a flagrantly obvious gnostic fabrication I believe but whatever. The excerpts are totally out of character of the Yeshua the 4 cohesive gospels, acts, and the epistles speak of not to mention the prophesies! Seriously..what do they show you guys to get your diploma. Zeitgeist? Gimme a break. There is no substantiation that they did this NOR WOULD IT HAVE FLOWN! It would have sent UNMASKABLE rifts through history.
@EnochArden@KarenBoothTaylor continuing...Think about it. HOW did this counsel *exist*? Because the teachings OF the Old Testament, the gospels, and acts and various epistles were already MASSIVELY POPULAR. So ..had the counsel just gone in and said 'hmmm..we dont' like this part that you fools thought was 'holy'...nor this...chop chop..there we go.. there's your new bible! Like it or die! Well a lot of people would have died. And they would have left a lot of evidence in their own writings that would have emerged to yet ANOTHER new generation of truth seekers. People like myself have a way of getting together with others who love the truth. We share it with one another and make sure it is passed on. FURTHERMORE THOUGH (and this is the real *sinker* to such theories)... all this stuff happened long before modern archeology and scientific methods/knowledge. And ohhh what TROUBLE that is for people who try to say 'ohhh the bible is just a bunch of random choppings..you need ME to tell you the truth! '.... Because the raw ODDS of nothing to have been scientifically DISproven for instance by now...is just hyper-astronomical...were any of this the work of fabricators. Fabricators in ancient times always get exposed. Because they tend to spin tales that have..of course..no substantiation but which people can't DISprove at the time. Take mormonism for example. When JS claimed that Hebrew people and POlynesians were related genetically..he never dreamed that some day they would have a method of proving that this is not the case Busted.
@EnochArden@KarenBoothTaylor But in the case of the books of the bible they are QUITE robust and I've challenged people all the 25 years I've been doing this on the usenet to post ANY SINGLE (ie. not 40 half-ass ones... just ONE ROBUST one..please...) irrefutable flaw that isn't just an observational variation that is understandable from well meaning witnesses. (eg. the famous example of 2 angels at the tomb vs. one in another gospel. Well perhaps one of the authors had the angel right in his face and was so struck that he never saw the two angels that the more distant observer saw. He just spoke of what the one angel did. He didn't say "I looked everywhere and there was only one angel"> Not to mention angels apparently can expose themselves to whoever they want... as with the army that was hidden from the servant of Elisha til he prayed that his eyes be opened...) Anyway so what this REALLY serves to do is PROVE that no fabricator went through and 'tidy'd up the scriptures'. If they had they would have removed that because MANY of the people they are trying to fool are STUPID and would perceive this AS a contradiction. But then..they of course would have stripped out Jesus saying not to save up for tomorrow etc. also. Governments DEPEND on people doing that so they can go 'clean house' every now and then ;-). And of course all the Old Testament is equally amazing but much more well substantiated yet in a way. Archeology has done amazing favors for those who wish to share the credibility of the Old Testament books. Even the most outlandish sounding stories now have vast amounts of evidence to back them.
@EnochArden@KarenBoothTaylor a Theology Professor... in what religion? In a secular college I'm sure too. That is the problem with so many ministers now..they deny the diety of Christ, the virgin birth etc..probably because of professors like you who don't believe it either. YES..JEsus IS the ONLY way to Heaven, not Buddha, or gaia.. or anyone else. Today with technology everyone has the opportunity to learn about Jesus, if not that is the job of missionaries to do so. God will be their judge not me! How he handles the situation is HIS to worry about.It is my job to support those who take the message to others, since I am not called to do so. That is the difference between us... I believe the bible and you don't. You really should teach something else and leave Bible theology to those who believe it. Someone in a pulpit preaching about God who doesn't believe is nothing more than a hypocrite and liar and should choose another profession. I have NOTHING more to say on the subject because I believe in Jesus Christ and his purpose, and you don't. I will not listen to anything from someone who teaches doctrines of the devil.
@KarenBoothTaylor Miss Taylor, your argument is ignorant. You don't have to say another word on the subject, but your failure to see the open ended nature of my dialogue, rather focusing on an inept caliber of non-related topics. But I will be damned if someone tells me I am NOT a believer. ~"That is the difference between us... I believe the bible and you don't." <-- That is what you said. In your post... You accuse me of teaching in a secular college without knowing a thing about me... Hmmm, Christian?... You are SUPPOSED to believe in non-judgement, yet you claim I am not a believer more than once in your argument... ~"Someone in a pulpit preaching about God who doesn't believe is nothing more than a hypocrite and liar and should choose another profession."<--- That is also what you said. Please take a second and really read what you just wrote to a complete stranger. You assume that my chosen profession is a shill for ignorance and I am a sybarite of some kind. I am only trying to have conversation, not make a square into a circle... You are disproving yourself. It's people like you who make me sick to call myself a Christian. But am I a Christian? You should tell me since you are apparently the authority.
@EnochArden@KarenBoothTaylor Demons believe. I'm not saying you aren't a believer. I'm just saying your take on the history of the bible and thus your doctrine is screwed up. I believe NOT in 'non-judgment' for the spiritual man it says judges ALL things. Of course if you knew the bible you'd know that. You'd also know Jesus commanded to make RIGHT judgements and not to judge by appearances. Ever read even Matthew? Dont' call yourself a Christian. You aren't following Christ obviously. You don't even believe the multiple accounts that logically correlate to the OT prophets and have no contradiction with each other OR modern scientific knowledge or anything else. All things in the bible that are labelled as spiritually sourced are what they are. But all things physically sourced completely fall into line with the laws of physics. And archeological finds way over the top of what we'd expect to find.You cant' deal with this so live in your MYTH that it was all just adjusted by a bunch of people way back there.
@RobertWeigel@KarenBoothTaylor If you are talking to me sir, you are assuming way too much and fabricating your faith. My "doctrine" is screwed up?!? Huh? ~"You aren't following Christ obviously."<-- Huh? Is that Christian, or is that YOUR Christian? Either way, who are you to say?... Mr. Weigel , you were actually only one of few people on here intelligent enough to converse with, but assuming the faith of another is about the most un-faithful thing one can do so you just lost some points.
@EnochArden@KarenBoothTaylor I'm assmuing nothing but what you told me. You told me you thought the bible was re-fabricated by people. Hence you are one of these people who just believes whatever they want it sounds like. Enoch... I tried to reason about that ...maybe you replied but i didn't see it. This isn't the best forum because it's another stupid facebook-esque 'wall spew'. I hate the lack of organization on these types of things. I miss too many things. If you did reply to that send me a note or call me on the phone or something where smart people realize communication happens about 40X more efficiently. I have too many things to do to retype things over and over which usually is what happens in these types of environments because of..the poor organization of a 'wall spew' type thing.
Ever celebrate Easter? Paint eggs and hide them? Have a tree for Christmas? Light candles for advent? Baptize? Say bless you when someone sneezes? Wear a ring on your finger to signify marriage? Go to church on Sunday? Have a wreath on your door? Celebrate the Christ's birth in December? Then you are using Pagan rituals! Love one another and stop all this mental violence!
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