Taxes

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Ron Paul supports the elimination of the income tax and the Internal Revenue Service (IRS). He asserts that Congress had no power to impose a direct income tax and has introduced legislation to repeal of the 16th Amendment to the Constitution, which was ratified on February 3, 1913.

An income tax is the most degrading and totalitarian of all possible taxes. Its implementation wrongly suggests that the government owns the lives and labor of the citizens it is supposed to represent. Tellingly, “a heavy progressive or graduated income tax” is Plank #2 of the Communist Manifesto, which was written by Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels and first published in 1848.

To provide funding for the federal government, Ron Paul supports excise taxes, non-protectionist tariffs, massive cuts in spending.

Ron Paul discusses the income tax and the “FAIR Tax” in May 2007:

On November 20, 2008 Ron Paul said in a New York Times / Freakonomics interview:

“I want to abolish the income tax, but I don’t want to replace it with anything. About 45 percent of all federal revenue comes from the personal income tax. That means that about 55 percent — over half of all revenue — comes from other sources, like excise taxes, fees, and corporate taxes.

We could eliminate the income tax, replace it with nothing, and still fund the same level of big government we had in the late 1990s. We don’t need to “replace” the income tax at all. I see a consumption tax as being a little better than the personal income tax, and I would vote for the Fair-Tax if it came up in the House of Representatives, but it is not my goal. We can do better.”

On May 7, 2001, Ron Paul wrote the following column:

The Case Against the Income Tax

Could America exist without an income tax? The idea seems radical, yet in truth America did just fine without a federal income tax for the first 126 years of its history. Prior to 1913, the government operated with revenues raised through tariffs, excise taxes, and property taxes, without ever touching a worker’s paycheck. In the late 1800s, when Congress first attempted to impose an income tax, the notion of taxing a citizen’s hard work was considered radical! Public outcry ensued; more importantly, the Supreme Court ruled the income tax unconstitutional. Only with passage of the 16th Amendment did Congress gain the ability to tax the productive endeavors of its citizens.

Yet don’t we need an income tax to fund the important functions of the federal government? You may be surprised to know that the income tax accounts for only approximately one-third of federal revenue. Only 10 years ago, the federal budget was roughly one-third less than it is today. Surely we could find ways to cut spending back to 1990 levels, especially when the Treasury has single year tax surpluses for the past several years. So perhaps the idea of an America without an income tax is not so radical after all.

The harmful effects of the income tax are obvious. First and foremost, it has enabled government to expand far beyond its proper constitutional limits, regulating virtually every aspect of our lives. It has given government a claim on our lives and work, destroying our privacy in the process. It takes billions of dollars out of the legitimate private economy, with most Americans giving more than a third of everything they make to the federal government. This economic drain destroys jobs and penalizes productive behavior. The ridiculous complexity of the tax laws makes compliance a nightmare for both individuals and businesses. All things considered, our Founders would be dismayed by the income tax mess and the tragic loss of liberty which results.

America without an income tax would be far more prosperous and far more free, but we must be prepared to fight to regain the liberty we have lost incrementally over the past century. I recently introduced “The Liberty Amendment,” legislation which would repeal the 16th Amendment and effectively abolish the income tax. I truly believe that real tax reform, reform that so many frustrated Americans desperately want, requires bold legislation that challenges the Washington mind set. Congress talks about reform, but the current tax debate really involves nothing of substance. Both parties are content to continue tinkering with the edges of the tax code to please various special interests. The Liberty Amendment is an attempt to eliminate the system altogether, forcing Congress to find a simple and fair way to collect limited federal revenues. Most of all, the Liberty Amendment is an initiative aimed at reducing the size and scope of the federal government.

Is it impossible to end the income tax? I don’t believe so. In fact, I believe a serious groundswell movement of disaffected taxpayers is growing in this country. Millions of Americans are fed up with the current tax system, and they will bring pressure on Congress. Some sidestep Congress completely, bringing legal challenges questioning the validity of the tax code and the 16th Amendment itself. Ultimately, the Liberty Amendment could serve as a flashpoint for these millions of voices.

Ron Paul introduced the Liberty Amendment in 1998, 1999, 2003, 2005, 2007 and 2009. It is currently know as H. J. RES. 48 and has 2 cosponsors, Roscoe G. Bartlett (MD-6) and Don Young (AK). Here is the text of the proposed amendment:

Liberty Amendment

Section 1. The Government of the United States shall not engage in any business, professional, commercial, financial, or industrial enterprise except as specified in the Constitution.

Section 2. The constitution or laws of any State, or the laws of the United States, shall not be subject to the terms of any foreign or domestic agreement which would abrogate this amendment.

Section 3. The activities of the United States Government which violate the intent and purposes of this amendment shall, within a period of three years from the date of the ratification of this amendment, be liquidated and the properties and facilities affected shall be sold.

Section 4. Three years after the ratification of this amendment the sixteenth article of amendments to the Constitution of the United States shall stand repealed and thereafter Congress shall not levy taxes on personal incomes, estates, and gifts.’.

On April 30, 2009 Ron Paul introduced the Liberty Amendment with the following speech:

Ron Paul: Madam Speaker, I am pleased to introduce the Liberty Amendment, which repeals the 16th Amendment, thus paving the way for real change in the way government collects and spends the people’s hard-earned money. The Liberty Amendment also explicitly forbids the Federal government from performing any action not explicitly authorized by the United States Constitution.

The 16th Amendment gives the Federal government a direct claim on the lives of American citizens by enabling Congress to levy a direct income tax on individuals. Until the passage of the 16th amendment, the Supreme Court had consistently held that Congress had no power to impose an income tax.

Income taxes are responsible for the transformation of the Federal government from one of limited powers into a vast leviathan whose tentacles reach into almost every aspect of American life. Thanks to the income tax, today the Federal government routinely invades our privacy, and penalizes our every endeavor.

The Founding Fathers realized that “the power to tax is the power to destroy,” which is why they did not give the Federal government the power to impose an income tax. Needless to say, the Founders would be horrified to know that Americans today give more than a third of their income to the Federal government.

Income taxes not only diminish liberty, they retard economic growth by discouraging work and production. Our current tax system also forces Americans to waste valuable time and money on compliance with an ever-more complex tax code. The increased interest in flat-tax and national sales tax proposals, as well as the increasing number of small businesses that question the Internal Revenue Service’s (IRS) “withholding” system provides further proof that America is tired of the labyrinthine tax code. Americans are also increasingly fed up with an IRS that continues to ride roughshod over their civil liberties, despite recent “pro-taxpayer” reforms.

Madam Speaker, America survived and prospered for 140 years without an income tax, and with a Federal government that generally adhered to strictly constitutional functions, operating with modest excise revenues. The income tax opened the door to the era (and errors) of Big Government. I hope my colleagues will help close that door by cosponsoring the Liberty Amendment.


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775 responses to “Taxes”

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  5. Ron

    No, I did not see anything regarding the lowering of corporate tax here on his campaign website. I did see a push to abolish income tax, death tax, Social Security tax (which is income tax), tax on tips (which is income tax), and then see dozens of tax deductions and tax exemptions.

    From where are all these wonderful "tax deductions" going to come from?

    Corporate taxes? I thought he wanted to lower it to 15%. If he keeps it at 35% or raises it, that won't help create jobs.

    Oh, yeah. JOBS! Where's his plan to create jobs?

    What happened to his bluster about eliminating a dozen agencies of which the EPA was just one, like Energy or Education?

    What happened to removing all of our troops from anywhere outside of the US?

    What happened to eliminating ALL foreign aid (which was really his way of eliminating aid to Israel)? I'm glad he's changed it to "stop giving money to dictators." since Israel is the only true democracy and ally in the Middle East.

    Under his defense plan, he repeats the call for border security. But, under border security, there is no mention of a fence. There is no mention of increasing the numbers of agents along the border.

    One other thing he said under his National Defense plan. He talked about killing terrorists constitutionally. Er....what is the constitutional definition of terrorist, and where in the constitution does it talk about killing them?

    The bottom line is that Ron Paul has no concrete plans - just a lot of popular-sounding ideas.

    Paul's voting record is like Obama's State Senate record: a whole lot of "Present" or "No vote" abstentions in response to bills. The problem is that you cannot claim to have been against a bill you never voted on and be considered a leader willing to take risks.

    I wish more people would actually look at the plans of the candidates, and take note of where they came from. Everyone has ripped off Gingrich's energy plans that he put in place more than a year ago. Gingrich said that he wanted to get rid of the EPA (as Paul does), but Newt also wants to get rid of the Department of Energy and the Department of Education (except for keeping a part of them to collect statistics).

    He proposed zero capital gains tax, zero death tax, 100% expensing, 15% flat tax (or giving people the choice of using the existing system), and a 12.5% corporate tax.

    Getting rid of income tax is a great idea but you have to balance it off with eliminating programs along with across-the-board spending cuts, and also make sure you have enough revenue to keep the government running while you do it.

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    1. Postal DAV

      Ron. Really? If you actually went to his website and looked around you would see a budget that he has proposed for a 4 year presidency. It has eliminated 5 departments, cuts spending by 1 trillion year one. And as forbuilding a fence? Haha you people are to funny. Why build a fence when they dig tunnels? Last I checked fences were above ground if they come in underground (through a tunnel) then why waste money, resources and time to build a fence? You must be for going to the moon.

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  9. Kelly

    I consistently see a lot of generalizations about the 'rich'. Be specific. There are quite a few people that are wealthy by working, being smart with their money (that's not to say 'poor people' aren't smart with their money or don't work). It is hard to focus on who to tax because there are a lot of different circumstances with how people are wealthy.
    Getting rid of income tax would be a great idea, because that hard earned money belongs to the individual. We do not need a huge government with a lot of money to throw around. What about pay cuts for Congress?
    We are stuck in the never ending circle that is capitalism. Supply vs. demand and all that. Slashing income tax would be a large step towards getting out of being ruled by government and capitalism. At least in America...

    If you comment, don't attack my opinions. I respect everyone's views on why/why not this is a good idea.

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    1. Sam

      I'm somewhat confused on this statement which is contained in your post:
      "Slashing income tax would be a large step towards getting out of being ruled by government and capitalism."

      What I fail to comprehend is how someone can be ruled by the government AND capitalism at the same time. It is impossible. Either the government rules the people, or they leave the economy completely alone and capitalism is allowed to exist. Don't be fooled; our economy is not one of capitalism--if it was, the government would have absolutely no control over it whatsoever.
      Furthermore, I'm struggling to understand what is so terrible about being ruled by capitalism; it is the economy which exists in a truly /free/ economy. What we are being "ruled" by as of now is mild socialism, which is called a "mixed" economy in order to keep people ignorant of its true design. In this system, government has control over many key factors of the economy (the largest part being the Fed). The mixed system and capitalism are not interchangeable due to their very definition.

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  12. Scott Greene

    The current U.S. Income Tax Code has been falling apart for years!

    Those who can afford armies of tax attorneys and CPA’s to navigate around this tax code and lobby the government for tax breaks are the ones who don’t pay income taxes.

    And those of us who can’t afford to lobby or pay for all the legal help necessary end up losing and paying.

    The Income Tax code is almost 75,000 pages long and that does not even include all the thousands and thousands and thousands and thousands of pages of tax publications, instruction booklets, revenue rulings and tax court cases.

    The only solution is getting rid of the current Income Tax system as it has proven to not work. The problems it has are inherent within the mind numbing code itself. Just pick it up and read it. It is obvious that it cannot be fixed by adding more and more regulations to fix the earlier regulations. The basic model just does not work.

    There are many 26 countries in the world who do not have an Income Tax code like the United States (no country in its right mind would set up such a system). These countries are doing much better economically that we are.

    So the solution lies in the abolishment of the current Income Tax code.

    A system that makes it illegal to not do bookkeeping the way the government says, has billions of dollars in compliance costs and is constantly being added to with new regulations every single month is not a system that can sustain itself and will eventually collapse.

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  14. WorldMinded

    How would the removal of the Income Tax effect the military men and women of the nation? E-1 through E-3 already make very little as it is, and with the income tax gone, the method of payment for those enlisted members wold be diminished as well, not to mention the cost for the dormitories that these armed forces members stay in would be more difficult to manage. According to monthly CPI reports from www.BLT.gov the costs of living from 1998 till now has increased by approximately 1.6% a month. That is 14 years of a COL increase of 1.6% coming out somewhere in the 268.8% range. Over the past 14 years cost of living has nearly tripled. To think that we can support the military and government with merely 55% of what is currently in the USG is absurd. It is a brilliant idea on paper and seems to be a great way to get money back in the pockets of the US Citizens, but it is slightly unrealistic to think that it can be removed and still support the US as a whole. Mr. Ron Paul, I agree with so much that you say and that you want to try to do for the nation, but this is one thing i do not agree with and that, on facts, I can't agree with.

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  16. Scott H

    Ok, I got on this site to give Mr. Paul a fair chance. After reading his positions, I have to wonder if he is the least bit serious. Does he have ANY proposals that have even the least chance of succeeding? The republicans won't support him, big business won't support him and neither will the democrats. Many of his proposals are like fairy tales (Doctors will provide free health care - like they supposedly did 5 decades ago - just because it's the "right-thing-to-do"). The rest simply don't stand any chance in hell of getting any support. While I believe you can compromise too much, I also believe you have to act on some amount of pragmatism. If Mr. Paul was to become President, he would make Mr. Obama's progress look like a torpedo. I guess if you don't care about getting ANY WHERE at all, then Mr. Paul might be an option, but real adults would probably prefer to make some progress than to stand on principal and just talk. After reading Mr. Pauls' proposals I can't believe anyone would vote for him. I suppose we could listen to him "talk" for 4 years and then elect someone else but what's the point? I know that many of his followers will be happy to respond in a totally obtuse manner but this is a man who simply is unprepared to make anything happen. No wonder he has ran so many times with only failure to show for it. Perhaps "failure" is the only thing he is used to and has now grown to accept it. Is this the man you want leading the most powerful nation in the world? A man who is happy to spout ridiculous ideas that will fall flat and never go anywhere?

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    1. not a sheep

      spoken like a true sheep, just keep following the herd

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    2. Kelly

      You realize the only way for this country to change for the better is to have people become more optimistic and realize what our government is doing to us. Abusing us, using their money-made power to control us. How can we stop it? By having someone get more power and shut it down.
      I respect your opinion that talking will do nothing. But the only way to make progress is to DO. You can't just sit back and let the government keep pushing you around.

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  17. Tom

    bob318
    January 6, 2012 at 2:38 pm | Permalink | Reply

    "why aren’t people occupying the congress or the white house? how is wall street to blame, do they make law, set policies?"

    Yes, that is exactly who makes the laws and sets policies through influence pedaling and lobbyists.

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  18. Richard Popovich

    I have been saying what Ron Paul has been saying. The "Flat Tax" proposal is still a tax on incomes of the people. It is another unconstitutional tax.
    A form of taxation that I would find most equitable is a National Sales Tax between 7 and 12 percent, with the 12 figure being reduced as our monetary woes heal.
    A NST is an excise tax and meets the standard of the Founders. It is equitable. Example: Both Bill Gates and I want to buy a boat. When I buy mine, I will most likely look at a 21' "Bass Boat," others may want to buy a canoe, but Bill Gates Idea of a boat may be a 100' yacht, or sailboat. But we all pay the same tax of 7-12% on an Orange vs Orange purchase. We are all buying a boat.
    Also it is a voluntary tax. I don't have to buy the boat, I CHOOSE to by the boat.
    By eliminating the IRS, we will save billions of dollars in the operation of that agency. Over 50% of taxes collected by the IRS pays for its overhead!

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    1. what???

      where do you get "over 50% of collected taxes pay for IRS overhead...thats a lot of overhead or ..

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    2. Corsini

      The amount of taxes that are used in order to bring in taxes is closer to 10%-20% according to The New Presence (an academic reviewed journal that has published multiple articles both against and for progressive taxes) not 50%.

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  21. lucky85

    "Let’s close loopholes for all classes."

    Again, the RWers are clueless, the rich PAY for their loophiles by buyingf off politiicans. Until you get big money out of government, this will NEVER happen.

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  22. lucky85

    "lol, money flowing from the poor to the rich IS the economy!
    "
    LOL, these RWers truly are nuts.

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  23. lucky85

    "government operated with revenues raised through tariffs, excise taxes, and property taxes, "

    The states get the property tax revenues which they use in general for education, that makes this idea bogus at best.

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  24. bob318

    Mike, what are you talking about, I agreed 100% with the lemoade stand

    analogy!

    I've even referred to it.

    I think you must have read something I was quoting another on saying.

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  27. David Devore

    Saying a graduated income tax is bad because it's in the Communist Manifesto is like claiming expressways are bad because Hitler invented them. The theory behind a graduated income tax comes from the idea that the more someone makes the easier it is to contribute back to society.

    Secondly, I read in a book written in 1921 that since the major beneficiaries of war were the ultra rich, the ultra rich should pay for the wars on a cash basis. Ogfiously this would also cut down on the number of wars.

    HOWEVER, Dr. Paul's idea cutting the federal government enough to where we need NO Income Tax is the best idea of all.

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  28. lucky85

    I'm all for eliminating the income tax for everyone that makes less than a certain amount, say

    150,000. The rich and corporations have played the system to get their money, so let them pick up the slack.

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    1. bob318

      your painting with pretty broad brush

      a tax on any corporation or business is simply a tax on the people that buy from that entity

      competitions forces any given business to compete, so simply keeping the prices high after the tax is removed would make them uncompetitive, forcing them out of the market.

      regardless of what Mitt Romney thinks, business aren't people, but taxing them sure enough taxes them.

      if you can't see this, then may I suggest taxing a business that for the most part caters to the poor, I'm sure you will be able to see it then.

      how about reinstating the laws we use o have on corporations, back before the Rockefellers go to them?

      why do you feel it's the government job to penalize the rich for being successful?

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      1. lucky85

        Why do you feel that the rich should not pay their far share of taxes at the exoense of the poor and middleclass, Many of the rich got that way by getting favorable legislation both for their operations and also for tax loopholes. Money has been flowing from the poor and middle class at record rates the last 2 decades. It's time to make the rich pay the piper.

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        1. Bob

          if simply 'saving tax money' could make you rich why aren't we all rich?

          I'm sorry if you think the rich don't already pay way more in taxes then both other classes combined, but that do, they pay WAY MORE then their "fair share" already
          we have a spending problem, and until that is fixed, no amount of taxing on any group will ever be enough.
          breaking the backs of the rich that are left in this country will only drive out the rich, leaving us all with an even bigger problem.
          we want to attracted investment and free market profits INTO the country, not out.
          they do have other choices you know.

          did you ever stop to think it wasn't the rich that was paying to little, but the middle class was paying too much? most in my family are in that 40% tax range, and probably a lot higher when you start counting all of the hidden fees, and taxes placed on the people.

          we have a tax on tax deal with this country.
          you make a dollar, it's taxes at say 30%, then you go buy a gallon of gas here in NY, and pay about 25% more on the money you have already been tax on.
          this is crippling this country, we are no longer competitive with the rest of the world, but then I hear people demanding higher taxes, and I know they are ignorant of how an economy works.

          "Money has been flowing from the poor and middle class to the rich" ???

          how is money flowing from the poor to the rich., lol
          I think you have it backwards, the rich pay the majority of the taxes, the poor collect on all the majority of the programs, that make the flow from rich to poor, not the other way around.

          if you knew about making money, you'd know, it's not what you make, it's what you spend that counts.
          translated to government= not that you tax, it's what you spend. this country can not get, or stay rich by taxing it's self there.... and being a rich country is not a given, we are in a nation in decline, it's all around us, if this is not reversed, we will be the impoverished nation we to business with.

          if taxing the hell out of the people was the secret to prosperity, we would be doing fine, but it's not, the higher the tax rate goes, the poorer we all are.

          if you don't have the poor pay their fair share of taxes, you develop an entitlement class that can vote themselves money out of the pockets of others classes, and democracy ceases to work.

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          1. lucky85

            Congratulations, you win the prize for most lies in one post. It's been reported time and again that the rich actually pay LESS percentage wise than the poor and middle class in taxes. Most of the rich pay little or nothing at all taking advanatage of all the loopholes created for them by their bought-off politicians. IT's time we close the loop-holes, and make the rich pay their fair share.

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        2. lucky85

          Pie-in-the-sky. Every politician has their pet projects from their home state. They talk a good game about cutting spending, but it never happens. I would like not to pay taxes too, but until we reach that point, we need to make taxation much more fair by having the rich pay much more than they are paying now in taxes.

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        3. bob318

          I'll say it again....

          until we control spending, taxing and counterfeiting the currency, (a back door tax on everyone with a dollar) it will always mean higher taxes.

          you think the poor or middle class are safe as long as we just tax the wealth away from those that have it???

          where do you think they will come after they are done exploiting that class?

          who will start a company in an atmosphere like that, where if they do succeed, it will only mean losing the $ through a web of taxes?

          who will be left with any money too start a company?

          would you invest your time and money into a risk that you may lose everything, only to see half the profits at best, if you do succeed at all? people have choices on how they spend THEIR time and efforts you know.

          economic prosperity does not come from government, it is a result of it.

          to say 'well, no one wants to pay taxes, but until someone else stops spending money, we just have to go mug the rich to pay for it all' is backwards thinking, you're simply demanding more of the same.

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        4. lucky85

          I still don't understand the stupidity of trying to protect a class (the rich) who doesnnot need out protection.. First, many exploit loopholes using high-powered lawyers and accountants to not may ANY taxes. We need to close those loopholes and increase their tax rate. It's been proven over and over that increasing taxes on the rich does NOT destory any jobs at all, but will help in balancing the budget, along with wise spending cuts,

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        5. winronpaul

          @lucky85 its actually really easy. If u tax the rich you will see a huge slow down in job creation. Which will only hurt the lower and middle class even more. Already the upper class not the super class are already struggling paying half there income in taxes which is currently stopping and slowing job growth largely. If you ask me these are the folks that need the most help since the government is already slowing there progress tremendiouly in creation dealing wi5h the EPA's rules that dont make sense at all and hefty fines since they are money hungry trying to grow. These are some of the main reasons companies can not move foward in a positive pace, which is no doubt hurting the lower and middle class who need jobs.

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        6. lucky85

          You cannot seem to grasp simplest idea that money flowing from the poor and middle to the rich ruins the economy. It's exactly the same thing that happened before the great depression. Take an econ course sometime.

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          1. AssCo2014

            what makes you think that you have the right to tax these hard-working Americans way more than other hard-working Americans simply due to their income? Those lawyers and accountants you talk about attended college and graduate school in order to earn that money. Who are you to say that they need to take their well deserved earnings and give half of them to the government to do with as they please?

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        7. bob318

          there are those that will always be more successful, and others that if you handed them a million dollars tomorrow, they would spend it all and be broke in -5 years.

          it has to do with drive, intelligence, the willingness to fail, a little good luck, and the understanding that greed is good, that it’s is just another word for motivation, one is demonized, one is celebrated. and not spending it all!

          lol, money flowing from the poor to the rich IS the economy!

          you sure aren’t going to have the rich people buying stuff from the poor people, it’s not like they have store front, or business.

          The poor choose their lot in life in many ways, even if they do not realize it.

          poor people are workers, and every now and then, a worker decides they want more in life, and start their own thing, that’s the difference.

          subsidizing the poor removes that ambition to be more, an important ingredient to move up in society.

          I have backed up everything I have laid out here with logic, spelling out the reasons behind my assertions as other here have done for you

          you on the other hand have simply been talking out of sympathy, hardly a case to make in telling ME to take a “econ course”

          sympathy has nothing to do with economics.

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          1. lucky85

            "If u tax the rich you will see a huge slow down in job creation"

            This statement pushed by the repugs simply isn't true. It's been proven over and over that the rich don't invest money saved on taxes in creating jobs, but instead they invest in tax shelters to keep that money.

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    2. SamShelly

      @lucky85

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    3. SamShelly

      @lucky85

      I understand the thinking that people who can afford to pay more taxes should pay more taxes. However, "corporate taxes" is an oxymoron. If you run a lemonade stand and the cost of producing a cup of lemonade is ¢20, you might sell each cup at ¢25. That's a 25% profit margin. That's not bad. So Tiny Tim buys a cup of lemonade for ¢25. However, if the government taxes your business, that in effect cuts into your profits. It affects your profit margin no differently than the price of lemons going up or the price of sugar. You would do what every business does, which is pass that cost on to your customers by increasing the price of the cup of lemonade. Now Tiny Tim has to pay more for the same product. So I ask you this: Who pays "corporate taxes"? The answer is the consumer does. Any increased expenses get passed on to the consumer every time.

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      1. bob318

        Given up on lucky85, that one has no common sense.

        I've explained the same thing twice before to lucky... with no luck at all.

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      2. lucky85

        So in your world of make-believe, corporations should pay no taxes all, while the poor and middle class pick up the slack. Yeah, right.

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  29. lucky85

    I believe the income tax could at least be made much simpler, but it will never happen Congress is full of lawyers, and accountants and lawyers have a strong lobby. They will do nothing that might put tax lawyers and accountants out of worlk.

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    1. bob318

      Ron Paul is for eliminating the IRS/ illegal income (just to pay for ww1) tax all together.

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      1. lucky85

        @bob318I know, it still won't happen.

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    2. Freshieee

      Why do we have to eliminate the income tax??? I mean, just because something is stated in a controversial piece of literature like the Communist Manifesto doesn't make it intrinsically evil. If unions were mentioned in Mein Kampf, should we immediately abolish them??? I am opposed to eliminating income tax, but I am not necessarily against adding a consumption tax if it will be beneficial to the US. I am tired of people calling for lower taxes and small government and crying the Constitution. Ron Paul says that income taxes are unconstitutional. THE CONSTITUTION WAS NOT PERFECT!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Sure, income taxes were considered radical in the 1800s, but DEMOCRACY was considered radical before the Enlightenment. The Constitution is an EVOLVING document that must be interpreted in a flexible manner. One must keep a flexible perspective to allow a nation to adapt to contemporary society (and no our nation needs s STRONG central government), but strict enough to maintain the integrity of the document and its authority. I am not anti-Paul, but more of a skeptic when it comes to Paulonomics (and I don't care if I am gonna get disliked).

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  30. JohnstonSequoia

    President Ron Paul?

    http://johnston-sequoia.blogspot.com/2012/01/presi...

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  31. American Candidates on Taxation – Ron Paul | Direito_Tributário

    [...] Taxes [...]

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  32. Ron Paul’s Frighteningly Accurate Prediction Speech |

    [...] Take a moment and explore a person’s actual stances before you make up your mind by watching CNN, FOX, CBS, MSNBS (sic), ABC or other for-profit news reports.  (Always follow the money.)  Republicans, did you know Ron Paul believes life begins at conception?  Traitors, er, Democrats, did you know you could smoke your dope without worrying about the very profitable “War on Drugs” system snatching you up?  Now, this comes with a heavy dose of personal responsibility, lefties, so don’t expect the patriots and hard-workers of this nation to support you while you smoke away … like they do now. [...]

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  33. DanieVirgil

    Dear bob318,

    Your right misspelled words should not discredit you, but it is sad that you did not proof read your writings before posting. Especially since the programs used for posting your thoughts, and or comments have spell check. Maybe in the future you will find use of this wonderful thing we have that is spell check.

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  34. bob318

    dear guest...

    if a few misspelled words are all you can fault me or my ideas on, then I guess I'm doing just fine.

    spelling does not give you credibility, but ridiculing a person for it says you have nothing better in your mental tool box to mount a credible argument against what I have put out here.

    thanks for being so small.

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  35. JulieBower

    Bad idea until you pay off our bills first. If a married couple has a large debt, do they decide that one of them should quit their job before paying off the debt? No. Just make the tax code simple and a one page form. Line #1 Enter your income, Line #2 Mulitply line #1 by 15% and enter amount here and THIS IS THE TAX YOU OWE, Line #3 would be enter amount of tax already paid, Line #4 would be deduct line #3 from line #2 and this is the remaining amount that you owe. If a credit is due, it will be mailed or deposited within 30 days. This way everyone has to pay the same percentage and no one can raise taxes on other people. Fair taxes.

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    1. lucky85

      Flat taxes are not fair, but exceedingly unfair, What makes the determination is how much of your "non-discretionary" income is being taxed. For the poor it's all of it, for the middle class most of it, and for the rich, none of it. Nondiscretionary is the income you must have to live, i.e. put food on the table and a roof over your head.

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      1. JulieBower

        @lucky85Taxes wouldn't be determined on "non-discretionary" income, but instead all of your income. It is fair because everyone would be paying the same precentage and the poor would pay less and the rich would pay more. Simple. What is unfair is a huge amount of the population not paying any taxes at all. They do initially when it's taken out of their paycheck but then they get refund checks. This encourages people to vote to tax others at a higher rate than they are paying themselves. We need fairness in taxes and fairness in voting.

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        1. lucky85

          The tax rate should be much higher for he higher incomes because even a higher rate affects them much less than the low income groups where the tax actually takes away from their ability to pay for food and housing. A "flat " tax is grossly unfair to the poor and middle class.

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        2. bob318

          so what your saying is only the rich should pay

          and that the poor and to a lesser degree the middle class, shouldn't have any skin in the game, so voting on big government dole programs would only benefit, and never hurt them.

          a dollar is a dollar no matter who is paying it.

          saying the poor can't spare anything, even just the %, that may be very little on a poor man, but even that no good for you, you want some to not pay anything.... and that's fair in your mind.

          That another man should pay it ALL of the burden for another simply because he can?

          that's nothing more then justified theft, class warfare.

          everyone should gets the same from government (even though we know that not the case anymore) benefits from, everyone pays the same %... and that's not fair?

          or is it that you see people that have money as an endless well of cash to which you can steal from?

          wow

          what you are saying is eat the rich.

          what happens when your meal is done?

          you are left with nothing but poor, and that is a dead end for everyone.

          it is shocking how little people know about economics today.

           

          do you understand the word, mine?

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        3. lucky85

          You obviously have no understandng of what "discretionaery" income is, and why the progressive tax was created in the first place.

          Even most of the rich say they should be paying a lot more than they are now are in surveys, it's not about class warfare, it's about fairness.

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        4. bob318

          pleeeease tell me where I can find a survey of more then just a few dozen liberals that think they don't pay enough into the black hole that is our government.

          having this supper rich people simply saying it, is nothing more then a political statement, and has no meaning since they can write checks for any amount that they want and send them into the federal government to spend on more wars, and to buy more dependents from more classes, but choose not to.

          and I know exactly why we have this "

          progressive tax" I found it in the communist manifesto.

          you see, poor people are just way easier to control then people with means.

          so the goal, remove the wealth, that's why we have it.

          governments should never have

          "discretionaery" income

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        5. lucky85

          This post makes no sense whatsoever.

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      2. SamShelly

        @lucky85

        Firstly, I disagree with insulting your intelligence based on your economic opinions, although we seem to fundamentally disagree on some points.

        The flat tax sounds fair until you put more thought into it. You make a valid point with your mention of taxing nondiscretionary income. I would prefer an across-the-board tax of 12% on all income over $50,000 per individual and $100,000 per household. However in a perfect scenario, I would want to see the income tax abolished and then and only then, a national sales tax imposed ONLY ON NON-ESSENTIAL PRODUCTS. No tax on groceries, drugs, or utilities for example.

        The rich are not the enemy here. They are no more to blame than the poor. There are a fraction of wealthy citizens who dodge taxation. There is also a fraction of poor citizens committing social security fraud in the form of able-bodied people drawing disability checks. I won't speculate on who is costing us more. Class warfare is counterproductive and dumb. Let's not blame classes. Let's close loopholes for all classes.

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        1. bob318

          a “tax loop hole” as you call them is a legitimate legal tax right off, it’s money that was spent to make money, and was not kept. so this idea that somehow they kept the money tax free is just faults.

          you need to read the Communist Manifesto, after all, you are knowingly, or unknowingly defending this evil plan to take down the US with illegal/unconstitutional taxing and inflation schemes from within.

          I believe the words were ‘grinding their wealth from them by placing them between the grind stones of inflation and a progressive taxation plan’

          you see, some governments in the past didn’t like people having too much, and set up a system of ways to slowly wear it away from them.

          why do you think that is?

          oh, and please at least read the link provided in the article on the Communist Manifesto before bothering telling me how wrong I am again.

          you‘ll see many parallels to the problems we have today, and you’ll see they have accomplished many of the goals they set out for themselves.

          remember, this were the plans to take down our democracy, and the freedoms that came with.

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